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2014-06-11 02:21 <whitequark> wpwrak: so I switched to ferric chloride
2014-06-11 02:21 <whitequark> as expected, it is *much* easier to work with than persulphate
2014-06-11 02:26 <wpwrak> well, it probably etches faster but it's a dirty mess
2014-06-11 02:28 <wpwrak> but now that you've mastered your fear of chloride, you can make the step to HCl. of course, you'll spend the rest of the week kicking yourself that you haven't chosen that from the start :)
2014-06-11 02:30 <whitequark> it's not a dirty mess
2014-06-11 02:31 <whitequark> I mean, why is it?
2014-06-11 02:31 <whitequark> I put the PCB into a polypropylene box (mildly hydrophobic), put stirring stick inside, close it, put it on top of my magnetic stirrer, turn it  on.
2014-06-11 02:31 <whitequark> take it out 20 min later
2014-06-11 02:32 <wpwrak> you don't find FeCl messy ? all the black sludge and such ? and that you have to heat the whole mess ?
2014-06-11 02:32 <whitequark> heat?
2014-06-11 02:32 <whitequark> I don't heat it
2014-06-11 02:32 <whitequark> black sludge? um, where?
2014-06-11 02:32 <wpwrak> are you sure you got FeCl ? :)
2014-06-11 02:32 <wpwrak> a red-brown liquid
2014-06-11 02:32 <whitequark> FeCl3·6H2O
2014-06-11 02:32 <whitequark> yes
2014-06-11 02:32 <wpwrak> not very transparent
2014-06-11 02:32 <whitequark> I made a 50% solution
2014-06-11 02:33 <wpwrak> add copper and you get black sediment. after just a bit of etching, the black goo dominates and you can't see anything
2014-06-11 02:33 <whitequark> oh, I solve that simply
2014-06-11 02:33 <whitequark> the box is transparent. I illuminate it from the bottom
2014-06-11 02:34 <whitequark> when the copper etches away, traces are visible on the bright background
2014-06-11 02:34 <wpwrak> ;-)
2014-06-11 02:35 <wpwrak> just try HCl and you'll finally know true happiness ;-)
2014-06-11 02:37 <whitequark> ha! now *that* is a mess, corroding everything in sight
2014-06-11 02:38 <whitequark> and I never feared chloride, I *started* with FeCl3
2014-06-11 02:38 <whitequark> and if I even wanted to switch, I'd spend the rest of the week trying to smuggle HCl somewhere
2014-06-11 02:39 <wpwrak> (corrode) you don't have to use it to mark your territory ;-)
2014-06-11 02:39 <wpwrak> and wasn't the reaction: 1 bottle vodka + some rubles = 1 bottle HCl ? :)
2014-06-11 02:40 <whitequark> I'm not good at bribing people
2014-06-11 02:45 <whitequark> (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻ what the fuck is up with this, I do not understand
2014-06-11 02:46 <whitequark> I can't *quite* combine the holes in the PCB and the printed negative
2014-06-11 02:46 <whitequark> either the CNC or the printer is broken
2014-06-11 02:46 <whitequark> it's within tolerances, i.e. the board will be fine, but it tickles my OCD
2014-06-11 02:48 <wpwrak> it's not a bribe. it's sharing vodka with a friend. a friend who does you a friendly favour.
2014-06-11 02:48 <whitequark> -_-'
2014-06-11 02:48 <wpwrak> if you bring two bottles, you can drink together. on your friendship :)
2014-06-11 02:51 <whitequark> hm, seems like I kinda overpowered my UV leds
2014-06-11 02:51 <whitequark> earlier I needed 180s of exposure, with the current I have set now it's 20...
2014-06-11 02:51 * whitequark shrugs
2014-06-11 02:52 <whitequark> it's even convenient.
2014-06-11 02:52 <wpwrak> how close to burning up are they ? :)
2014-06-11 02:53 <whitequark> well, in theory they're rated at 3W. I put in 5.6W
2014-06-11 02:53 <whitequark> and since I turn them on just for 20s it's not really bad
2014-06-11 02:56 <whitequark> wow, the solder mask not only doesn't develop, it's basically solid
2014-06-11 02:56 <whitequark> I belatedly admit this may have been a slight overkill
2014-06-11 02:57 <whitequark> I should rather expose it for like two seconds at this power
2014-06-11 02:59 <whitequark> I mean, it's solid enough on *non*exposed areas that it takes significant force to puncture it at the places where it simply covers a hole
2014-06-11 02:59 <whitequark> you could probably not take it off from exposed areas with a jackhammer
2014-06-11 03:00 <whitequark> ... oh. no. I'm a moron
2014-06-11 03:00 <whitequark> I didn't take off the PTFE protective film on the top
2014-06-11 03:19 <wpwrak> ;-))
2014-06-11 03:33 <whitequark> hrm. I think my tinning solution got bad
2014-06-11 03:33 <whitequark> it was yellow. now it's white.
2014-06-11 03:33 <whitequark> also, it doesn't work.
2014-06-11 03:36 * whitequark shakes the solution wildly
2014-06-11 03:36 <whitequark> now it seems to work...
2014-06-11 03:40 * whitequark wonders if this is even going to work: http://i.imgur.com/jz26wdq.png
2014-06-11 03:41 <whitequark> seems too simple to fuck it up, but who knows
2014-06-11 04:02 <whitequark> hmm, I think I know what the unidentified "tin salt" is
2014-06-11 04:02 <whitequark> it contains sulphur, though I'm not sure in which oxidation state. there's also a reducing agent in the solution, so anything could go to H2S
2014-06-11 04:04 <whitequark> aha, I'm correct: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=m8sJBIMtETgC&pg=PA318&lpg=PA318&dq=tinning+solution+composition&source=bl&ots=2_-hGNZbMf&sig=id1ijZTC8WRr9lWkrAcfpDGbNDQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CtWXU8OYMsTjOvCkgfAO&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=tinning%20solution%20composition&f=false
2014-06-11 04:06 <whitequark> wow, that book looks like something I want to get
2014-06-11 04:06 <whitequark> it also explains through-hole plating!
2014-06-11 04:21 <whitequark> wpwrak: http://lab.whitequark.org/notes/2014-06-11/producing-pcbs-using-photolitography/
2014-06-11 04:24 <wpwrak> hmm, shouldn't there be a diode across the relays ?
2014-06-11 04:25 <wpwrak> "simple and quick" ... a CNC machine :)
2014-06-11 04:26 <whitequark> quick? sure
2014-06-11 04:26 <whitequark> simple? depends on your definition of "simple"
2014-06-11 04:38 <wpwrak> what, no silk screen ? and where's the stencil ? :)
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2014-06-11 04:41 <whitequark> stencil? I have a process for stencils, but this is through-hole
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2014-06-11 04:42 <whitequark> and no, no silk-screen yet. I even have the UV paint ready, but not the mesh yet
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2014-06-11 04:53 <wpwrak> and i hope you have either a few spare transistors or are adding that diode :)
2014-06-11 04:59 <whitequark> oh, crap, diodes on relay coils
2014-06-11 05:01 <whitequark> grmbl, wonder whether I have some spare diodes
2014-06-11 05:04 <whitequark> I have so many curious things stashed under the ceiling. for example, handcuffs
2014-06-11 05:04 <wpwrak> the mistress will be pleased
2014-06-11 05:05 <whitequark> they appear to be the sex shop kind, yes
2014-06-11 05:05 <whitequark> I wonder why the hell do I have them
2014-06-11 05:07 <wpwrak> maybe it has something to do with that night you don't quite remember, but after you somehow got out off the cuffs, you stepped on an empty vodka bottle on the floor and almost broke your neck ?
2014-06-11 05:12 <whitequark> grmbl. no diodes. I swear I had some 1n4148's
2014-06-11 05:12 <whitequark> well but I do have a dozen of transistors, so... let's plug it in and see what happens :]
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2014-06-11 06:09 <whitequark> ugh, doesn't work at all
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2014-06-11 06:15 <whitequark> *facedesk*
2014-06-11 06:15 <whitequark> I used a conveniently placed 24V tap on the board
2014-06-11 06:16 <whitequark> however it turns out that the chinese used *one* halfperiod of input 18Vac to power the control board and *other* halfperiod to power the fan (which is what the tap was for)
2014-06-11 06:16 <whitequark> since I no longer power it with ac... yeah
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2014-06-11 06:37 <whitequark> wpwrak: uhhh, wtf
2014-06-11 06:37 <whitequark> it kind of works now, by which I mean... it switches on and stays on
2014-06-11 06:37 <whitequark> until I power cycle it
2014-06-11 06:37 <whitequark> why
2014-06-11 06:50 <whitequark> ...
2014-06-11 06:51 <whitequark> the BE voltage is .6V somehow (the base is floating in air) and the CE voltage is 8V
2014-06-11 06:55 <whitequark> why
2014-06-11 06:56 <whitequark> it's almost exactly BC547's BE on voltage. no wonder it remains in some indefinite state
2014-06-11 07:01 <whitequark> hm, if I short base to ground, the CE voltage actually rises. wat?
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2014-06-11 12:57 <nicksydney> Hackers: the Internet's immune system  -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erCAp_Bd0AQ#t=100 .... oh yeah !
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2014-06-11 16:10 <wpwrak> damn. how i sometimes wish to have one of those ultra high-res 27" monitors ...
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2014-06-11 20:36 <DocScrutinizer05> C-B diode semi-fried by relay recoil already
2014-06-11 20:39 <DocScrutinizer05> never switch inductive load without a clamp diode
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2014-06-11 20:40 <wpwrak> especially not with a transistor :)
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2014-06-11 20:40 <DocScrutinizer05> BC547 V(CEO)=45V abs max
2014-06-11 20:41 <DocScrutinizer05> adding a capacitor of maybe 1uF to B-E would be the only viable alternative
2014-06-11 20:42 <DocScrutinizer05> but really a poor alternative
2014-06-11 20:42 <wpwrak> i think the "good" circuits have both
2014-06-11 20:43 <DocScrutinizer05> BC547 V(CBO)=50V - maybe use C-B diode for clamp, when you got so many of those BC547 ?
2014-06-11 20:44 <DocScrutinizer05> http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/BC/BC547.pdf
2014-06-11 20:46 <DocScrutinizer05> V(BE(on))=0.66V
2014-06-11 20:46 <DocScrutinizer05> breaktrough/leakage on C-B diode makes transistor open up at 66mV and thus Vcollector goes down. Nice feedback
2014-06-11 20:47 <DocScrutinizer05> you managed to tune the BC547 from a V(CE) of 45V to 8V
2014-06-11 20:47 <wpwrak> the circuit designer's companion suggests: diode or zener or RC
2014-06-11 20:48 <DocScrutinizer05> RC snubber, sure
2014-06-11 20:48 <DocScrutinizer05> or clamp diode
2014-06-11 20:48 <DocScrutinizer05> or Zener, HAHAHA
2014-06-11 20:48 <DocScrutinizer05> maybe when you got surplus zeners
2014-06-11 20:50 <DocScrutinizer05> B-E capacitor is a usual means to stretch rise/fall times
2014-06-11 20:50 <wpwrak> zener for preventing the switch to get kicked below the rail
2014-06-11 20:50 <wpwrak> .. which is often undesirable :)
2014-06-11 20:52 <DocScrutinizer05> downside of stretching slew rate is increased power dissipation in transistor
2014-06-11 20:52 <DocScrutinizer05> benefit is better EMI characteristics of your whole circuit
2014-06-11 20:53 <DocScrutinizer05> so yes, usually you want both: clamp diode and a maybe 10..100nF capacitor, depending on your needed slew rate
2014-06-11 20:53 <DocScrutinizer05> for a relay you can use 10uF even
2014-06-11 20:54 <DocScrutinizer05> unless that fries your transistor
2014-06-11 20:56 <DocScrutinizer05> with a clamp diode you don't need a Zener when you can make sure your VDD is << V(CE) + V(fwd) of clamp diode
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