2014-06-09 00:06 cast steel (is this the name for Grauguss?) has >2% carbon, thus it isn't supposed to rust, aiui. Any rsuting probably will stop as soon as the carbon concentrates on the surface... unless you remove that "passivation coat", just like with EloxAl where you're NOT supposed to remove the coating or a new one has to build up 2014-06-09 00:08 ( wild guessing here ^^^ ) 2014-06-09 00:09 wiki just says "usually doesn't rust unless you damage the coating" 2014-06-09 00:09 lamrz has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 00:10 and since they are not talking about a particular object that has a dedicated coating of whatever, done by the one who built it... This is about that type of steel at large 2014-06-09 00:12 hm, read up some stuff on it 2014-06-09 00:12 apparently just cast iron rusts at about the same rate, .1mm/year, but since stuff you made out of it is thicker, it's not as noticeable 2014-06-09 00:12 >>Gusseisenteile mit unverletzter Gusshaut sind besser korrosionsbeständig als Stahl<< 2014-06-09 00:12 HOWEVER, if you don't remove the crust that's left after casting, that crust, if not damaged, somewhat delays rusting 2014-06-09 00:13 exact translation :-) 2014-06-09 00:15 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2014-06-09 00:21 jow_laptop has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 00:21 well, i know that the pipes we have around here rust slowly and that's what everyone expects them to do. alas, there's some weakness in implementing suitable maintenance protocols ... (it could always fix it so far, so we would we need to replace it ? naw, too expensive.) 2014-06-09 00:22 #s/it could/we could/ 2014-06-09 00:23 bleh. orthography is screwed up. still some residual effects from all the excitement :) 2014-06-09 00:25 ah, the fun bit: coming tuesday, there will be a reunion of the apartment owners plus the building administration (schedules already a while ago, to discuss the budget). i expect it to get rather entertaining this time, given recent events. 2014-06-09 00:25 beatings? 2014-06-09 00:30 jow_laptop has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-06-09 00:30 we'll see. back when there was a major conflict over the previous administration (some people tried a bit of a smear campaign, but the administrator prevailed - but resigned a few years later since the work got too much for her (she's already some 80+, i think)), it did come to blows at one of the many sessions we had until things were settled. 2014-06-09 00:30 wow, I thought I was joking 2014-06-09 00:31 jow_laptop has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 00:31 although this just makes it all better. administration + entertainment, two in one 2014-06-09 00:31 yeah, it can get rather lively :) 2014-06-09 00:38 jow_laptop has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2014-06-09 00:38 jow_laptop has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 01:03 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-06-09 01:18 lamrz has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2014-06-09 01:18 lamrz has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 01:20 lamrz_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 01:20 lamrz has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-06-09 01:21 lamrz_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-06-09 01:21 lamrz has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 01:42 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 01:47 BerryHalsak has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 01:49 lamrz has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 2014-06-09 02:10 lamrz has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 02:18 lamrz has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2014-06-09 02:18 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2014-06-09 02:24 will you waer your rugby outfit? :-) 2014-06-09 02:27 wait, there been that dude with his "unbreakable" suit, who wrestled with grisly bears and alligators and whatnot, and smashed into driving cars etc to prove his suit actually worked 2014-06-09 02:27 maybe the right dresscode for such event? 2014-06-09 02:32 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 02:49 i wonder whether i should install a camera somewhere :) 2014-06-09 03:11 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 03:17 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-06-09 04:10 one? 2014-06-09 04:29 BerryHalsak has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2014-06-09 05:48 Luke-Jr has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-06-09 05:50 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 06:14 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-06-09 06:28 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 06:44 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 07:12 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 07:16 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-06-09 07:29 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 07:56 sb0 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 08:16 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 2014-06-09 08:17 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 08:24 lamrz has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 09:05 sb0 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2014-06-09 09:05 sb0_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 09:14 Luke-Jr has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-06-09 09:15 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 09:39 wej has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-06-09 09:40 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 09:54 lamrz has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2014-06-09 11:17 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2014-06-09 11:27 tumdedum has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2014-06-09 11:29 tumdedum has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 11:49 Lumocolor is now known as astr 2014-06-09 11:51 lamrz has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 12:21 http://wstaw.org/m/2014/06/09/plasma-desktopNm1787.png 2014-06-09 12:35 rodgort has quit [Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)] 2014-06-09 12:36 14% hummidity here 2014-06-09 12:40 rodgort has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 12:40 green around that sensor 2014-06-09 12:42 but look at the diff between outside and indoors. Guess how tempted I am to open the window - no AC here 2014-06-09 12:46 it's 30 degrees inside here... 2014-06-09 12:46 the down side of top floor appartments 2014-06-09 12:56 wow, looked up specs on this machine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_qHR_H_2cg&feature=youtu.be 2014-06-09 12:56 they claim 0.5µm accuracy / 2µm repeat positioning accuracy 2014-06-09 13:05 total porn 2014-06-09 13:08 paul_boddie has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 13:08 Something for N900 fans and machining enthusiasts: https://gitorious.org/fremantle-backcover-replacement 2014-06-09 13:08 wow 2014-06-09 13:10 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 13:11 lamrz has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2014-06-09 13:11 omarit has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 13:14 paul_boddie: I wonder what is it made of 2014-06-09 13:19 that's the Alu backcover of Estel_ 2014-06-09 13:20 whitequark: (CTX gamma 2000 TC) there's just one really huge problem with this thing: _where_ do you place it in your flat? ;-P 2014-06-09 13:22 Yes, it's the notorious backcover, but I guess other materials might be possible. Nice that they shared the design, though. 2014-06-09 13:24 DocScrutinizer05: no, that is actually not a problem 2014-06-09 13:24 because if I actually have enough money to buy *that*, I could as well buy a few flats in Moscow or in London or NY 2014-06-09 13:25 well he had to, after he bashed me and Nik for not instantly and unconditionaly sharing Neo900 _complete_^4 files and data 2014-06-09 13:25 sombebody called him out on it for his own project idling in a limbo since a year or longer 2014-06-09 13:26 paul_boddie: ^^^ 2014-06-09 13:26 whitequark: you spoiled it :-P 2014-06-09 13:27 hm, down to 5%, that's pretty dry 2014-06-09 13:27 anyway now you have an idea what CNC _really_ means ;-) And still there's soooo much this thing can NOT do. Let's start with all sorts of flasks etc 2014-06-09 13:30 seems a metal sintering / welding 3D printer sometimes is clearly the more versatile alternative 2014-06-09 13:31 whitequark: "look m'am, no coolant !" :) 2014-06-09 13:32 yeah, quite interesting 2014-06-09 13:33 and i don't need their machine. i'd be happy enough to just have their tool changer :) 2014-06-09 13:34 I guess they used the right steel (easy cut) for their object to build, so they could forget about that nasty ugly messy cooling which evidently would have spoiled their cool video presentation. Nobody is interested in the machine's capabilities to squirt some cooling liquid on that stuff 2014-06-09 13:34 the tool changer is almost shocking, yeah. Must be hundreds of tools 2014-06-09 13:34 48 2014-06-09 13:35 I checked the datasheet 2014-06-09 13:37 nope, for sure more, 48 seem to be less than the ones I *seen* moving by on that endless tape 2014-06-09 13:37 maybe 48 is the basic model :) 2014-06-09 13:37 24 is the basic one. 48 is the chain variant 2014-06-09 13:37 which we see 2014-06-09 13:37 DocScrutinizer05 can find the pdf himself, I already closed it 2014-06-09 13:38 maybe 48 is the number of tools _used_ in that video ;-) 2014-06-09 13:39 paul_boddie: is there a picture of it anywhere ? 2014-06-09 13:39 wpwrak: in that thread 2014-06-09 13:40 i just see dwg and ngc, no image 2014-06-09 13:40 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=A_qHR_H_2cg#t=144 2014-06-09 13:40 I think I *see* more than 48 here 2014-06-09 13:41 no, i mean paul's link. n900 backcover. 2014-06-09 13:52 (3d printing) i think we'll see a big change with stereo lithography. it's still not quite established in the low-cost segment, but there are many people/companies working on it. 2014-06-09 13:56 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-06-09 13:59 wpwrak: search in tmo for alu backcover 2014-06-09 13:59 there's a thread started by Estel about it 2014-06-09 14:00 for your convenience: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=83928 2014-06-09 14:00 lamrz has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 14:04 http://talk.maemo.org/search.php?searchid=16586444 might help 2014-06-09 14:05 well, did he ever actually make it ? and post a picture ? 2014-06-09 14:05 the beginning of the thread talks about what it'll be like. at the end, there's nothing either. the whole thread is very long. 2014-06-09 14:06 seems that he has no fab capabilities himself, not even for prototyping ? 2014-06-09 14:07 that sounds like a bumpy approach ;) (i always find that i need to do lots of tweaks, so for one design i like, i make several attempts that just don't work. even if it's something much simpler than that.) 2014-06-09 14:09 there's a picture _somewhere_, I've seen it. And he talks about his own CNC machine somewhere in this thread 2014-06-09 14:10 but honestly I don't like to talk about anything estel-related 2014-06-09 14:15 and honestly - WHO the HECK needs a metal case with extended battery capabilities, to connect that to external antennas then? Doesn't sound exactly portable/mobile anyway, which _totally_ defeats the purpose of battery as well as whole device 2014-06-09 14:16 maybe he could mill a metal mould and then make an extruded case 2014-06-09 14:18 he lightly talks about the hirose U-FLplugs on internal cables and the RP-SMA on outside, conveniently neglecting that the internal antennas are totally obsolete then, both by the U-FL plug switching off antenna as well as the case itself totally shielding antennas 2014-06-09 14:18 yeah, i realize the limitations of having a metal case :) i'm more curious about the machining 2014-06-09 14:22 wej_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 14:25 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-06-09 14:30 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 14:36 I doubt you will enjoy reading details about it 2014-06-09 14:37 bartbes has quit [] 2014-06-09 14:37 estel is clearly a troll and a pita, and I doubt he has much to contribute to the topic CNC that you didn't know 20 years ago already 2014-06-09 14:38 and I don't like to talk about him, since I have a hard time not going personal when I do 2014-06-09 14:39 after all that guy has a personal vendetta against me since 2 years at least 2014-06-09 14:39 (I'm not the only one enjoying that honor) 2014-06-09 14:42 anyway for now he's banned 2014-06-09 14:44 he worked hard to achieve that, but he obviously been wildly determined to earn another ban (not his first one) 2014-06-09 14:45 I discourage you to answer his posts or ask questions on anything he ever posted 2014-06-09 14:46 wpwrak: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1427901&postcount=369 2014-06-09 14:46 he inevitably will start to bitch at you as well, or otherwise troll Neo900 project once more 2014-06-09 14:46 once he gets unbanned, that is 2014-06-09 14:48 Anyway, I only brought it up because maybe you get the benefit of this little escapade regardless of who started it. ;-) 2014-06-09 14:51 paul_boddie: thanks ! 2014-06-09 14:51 seen the convenient ranting in this post you linked? and the link to http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1427271&postcount=111 on which he actually received infraction points from me, for again badmouthing me and particularly for doing this by stating lies resp unsupported assertions 2014-06-09 14:53 looks pretty nice. smooth round curves, complex details 2014-06-09 14:53 sure, but hey, we could do that, no? 2014-06-09 14:53 "move on, nothing to see here!" 2014-06-09 14:53 bartbes has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 14:54 maybe he's just bored. throw him a bone every now and then, and he'll happily work is arse off for you ;-) 2014-06-09 14:54 (we can do it) would depend on how much manual work went into this. if it came out of the machine like that, i couldn't do it 2014-06-09 14:56 note that this piece has been worked on from both sides. and wall thickness looks pretty constant. so whoever did the milling has good equipment. 2014-06-09 14:57 ah, backcover_* is also estel. your banning only seems to make him hide better ;-) 2014-06-09 14:58 wpwrak: (bone) nope, doesn't work 2014-06-09 14:58 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 15:00 please get this right: it's NOT *my* banning. Bans are triggered by vBulletin when somebody earns enough infraction points 2014-06-09 15:00 there are pretty clear rules about (even the amount of) infraction points moderators are _supposed_ to hand out for misbehavior 2014-06-09 15:02 trolling is one reason, personal insult another, no matter who gets insulted and who insults 2014-06-09 15:02 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2014-06-09 15:04 trolling earns 15 points iirc, insult 20. System ban kicks in at 30. You can't hand out multiple infraction penalties at same post. So he at least had a second post where he earned the remaining points to trip the magic 30 2014-06-09 15:06 and his last ban which got "amnestied" it seems, been just a some 4 weeks ago, for very identical misbehavior 2014-06-09 15:07 last ban not been caused by me but also was for trolling Neo900 project 2014-06-09 15:08 ah well, that maemo gang is a funny crowd. they have a council, a scoring system in their forum, ... you must have snatched up quite some politicians on the way ;-) 2014-06-09 15:08 he got muted for ~1 week, returned thanks to super mod obviously amnestied him, and instantly continued same badmouthing and trolling 2014-06-09 15:08 huh? I guess that scoring system is pretty much global standard for vBulletin fora 2014-06-09 15:09 and who else is going to take care about all the friggin administrative tasks if not council? 2014-06-09 15:10 thus council seems not inspired by politics but rather by management 2014-06-09 15:10 the greatest achievement of the devil was to convince people that he didn't exist. 2014-06-09 15:11 haha 2014-06-09 15:11 the greatest achievement of politicians was to convince people they need them ;-) 2014-06-09 15:11 you gotta know, eh? 2014-06-09 15:11 oh, we have a vice president getting grilled in court over some rather shady dealings this very moment :) 2014-06-09 15:12 I didn't think of third party hearsay 2014-06-09 15:12 and apparently, the pope say fit to express his best wishes for the judge in charge of this 2014-06-09 15:13 * DocScrutinizer05 imagines wpwrak sitting at home, sending mails and other memos, and laughing at Machiavelli 2014-06-09 15:13 (probably remembering the fate of falcone and borsellino) 2014-06-09 15:13 ;-)) 2014-06-09 15:14 i like Machiavelli's no-nonsense style :) 2014-06-09 15:15 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 15:16 jekhor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-06-09 15:16 probably you also invented the guy who allegedly wrote Illuminatus 2014-06-09 15:17 ;-) 2014-06-09 15:18 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 15:19 no, i took reading suggestions from that book. like "Coup d'Etat - A practical handbook". i though they had just invented this, but no, it does exist :) 2014-06-09 15:20 * DocScrutinizer05 tries a few anagram transforms between "Werner Almesberger" and "R. A. Wilson" and/or "Robert Shea" 2014-06-09 15:20 youdo me to much honor :) 2014-06-09 15:22 I just wonder about the horrible amount of influence from politics that resulted in OM having a boss and even departments with their own department leaders and assigned tasks 2014-06-09 15:24 can't have been as much as in maemo, since at least no *elections* (eeeew! the worst thing politics ever invented) in OM, ever 2014-06-09 15:26 but clearly Nokia establishing/agreeing on a councl been one move that for sure qualifies for Machiavelli award, there at least you're absolutely right 2014-06-09 15:28 http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council#Council_work read this and adore the the (hidden, true) plot/motivation behind it 2014-06-09 15:30 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 2014-06-09 15:34 wpwrak: could you please share your ideas about better alternatives to moderation of any sorts (incl penalties and even banning of poisonous members) for the usual public forum? I'm absolutely sure there are a ~10k people that would love to hear about any better alternative, first of them being the moderators who generally hate their job 2014-06-09 15:36 NB I got shanghaied for council as well as for moderation of the Neo900 subforum (the latter really came by surprise and I still wonder why tmo admin decided to do this) 2014-06-09 15:37 anyway I'm really happy my definitely last term in council will end in 4 weeks the latest 2014-06-09 15:38 and I'd *love* to see *you* applying for moderation of neo900 subforum, so I could rsign from that task as well 2014-06-09 15:39 resign even 2014-06-09 15:40 alas I'm afraid even when you would apply, the tmo admin/super-mod will not even consider 2014-06-09 15:40 he also rejected to make dos1 a mod for that forum, despite me pushing for it 2014-06-09 15:41 now THATS politics 2014-06-09 15:41 oh, so this structure came from nokia. now it begins to make sense ... 2014-06-09 15:42 for moderation, i'd just remove the clearly illegal stuff. ignore trolling and insults. like anyone else should. then the trolls and insulters go away on their own. 2014-06-09 15:43 haha, yeah. IF _everybody_ would ignore them 2014-06-09 15:43 you can just sit them out. your anger is their reward. so the harder you seem to work to "control" them, the happier they are 2014-06-09 15:43 no, won't fly, it's been tried on tmo a bazillion times 2014-06-09 15:44 (dos1) i'd call this luck, for him ;-) 2014-06-09 15:45 and you seem to suffer a misconception here - moderation and anger are completely unrelated 2014-06-09 15:48 moderation means: move around posts, create new threads for posts OT in another thread, and occasionally hand out infraction points according to a clear set of rules which definitely do NOT include the word "anger" anywhere 2014-06-09 15:50 and beware of "remove the clearly illegal stuff" since that will instantly start a shitstorm about your "obviously totally perverted idea of what's illegal", your censorship and dictatorship and generally about wtf you are mod at all 2014-06-09 15:52 I'm still surprised that people still congregate around Nokia-initiated services: did no-one notice that Nokia doesn't hand out shiny gadgets any more? 2014-06-09 15:52 Then again, maybe that's the point of keeping some of these things around. 2014-06-09 15:54 sounds like "I'm still surprised that anybody still uses linux. Didn't they notice slackware got abandoned?" 2014-06-09 15:56 Well, my impression was that Nokia attracted people who wanted gadgets to play with, but the intended community didn't really give the expected benefits. 2014-06-09 15:57 I mean how many people picked up multiple N-series models for free and what was the effect of these developer give-aways? 2014-06-09 15:58 no matter if that's correct or not, how would it have any relevance for somebody using *.maemo.org services, which btw are virtually completely owned by the community since 18 months? 2014-06-09 15:59 Well, I was just commenting on the apparent shark tank nature of the whole thing. Doesn't sound like a bunch of people focused on doing new and genuinely interesting stuff in general. 2014-06-09 16:00 maybe that's exactly like #ubuntu then? 2014-06-09 16:01 maemo isn't a fenced protected sandbox playground for some developers 2014-06-09 16:03 maemo is a linux distro based largely on debian and 95% of core system FOSS, and it doesn't differ much to the "ecosystem" of ubuntu or debian or gentoo or younameit 2014-06-09 16:04 compare the maemo "shark tank2 to that of debian and ubuntu, you won't notice many differences 2014-06-09 16:05 Sure, go to various forums and you can feel the heat of the flaming, regardless of what it's about. 2014-06-09 16:05 how much shark tank is even #openmoko-cdevel? 2014-06-09 16:06 Personally, cutting down on the forums with a high proportion of squabbling participants was one of the best things I ever did. 2014-06-09 16:07 You realise that you won't miss anything important or insightful anyway. A bit like quitting Facebook. 2014-06-09 16:07 yeah, and since everybody with a brain tends to think similar, forums need a tight moderation to keep them alive. Particularly when your community is largely based on said forum 2014-06-09 16:08 tmo is ~90% of maemo's knowledge base 2014-06-09 16:08 google for an arbitrary problem related to maemo OS, and odds are your first 5 hits are linking to tmo 2014-06-09 16:09 Anyway, I just have to wonder what the future of that place is, what with your descriptions of the politics. Again, a lot of people seemed to let Nokia "take care" of rather too much, community-wise. 2014-06-09 16:10 btw talk.maemo.org formerly been internettablettalk.com and is the only *.m.o service never ruled or owned by Nokia 2014-06-09 16:12 On other matters, when will Neo900 donations be officially open again? 2014-06-09 16:12 again, no matter if you're correct on this or not - Nokia is basically dead and not interfering with maemo anymore at all, since almost 3 years now, since 18 months for good 2014-06-09 16:13 so watever you considered "Nokia took care too much about" for sure isn't applicable anymore 2014-06-09 16:15 maemo (social) is an autonomous group of people, with only one administration entity and that's maemo council 2014-06-09 16:15 My point about Nokia is that people were comfortable while Nokia was driving everything, and that doesn't necessarily promote a healthy community. 2014-06-09 16:15 and maemo council evidently doesn't take too much care about anything communty related 2014-06-09 16:15 so what? 2014-06-09 16:16 Well, doesn't it explain the malaise you see now? 2014-06-09 16:16 abandon it and give it the finger? 2014-06-09 16:16 I'm actually almost about to do exactly that 2014-06-09 16:17 and I don't need more explanations why maemo is what it is. I seen it becoming what it is today 2014-06-09 16:18 and guys like Estel did a massive job to accomplish that 2014-06-09 16:18 since he made lots of users do what you did: avoid froum 2014-06-09 16:19 I don't have an opinion about Maemo itself, just the community infighting. 2014-06-09 16:19 of course only the "good" users, leaving talk.maemo.org with even higher concentration of trolls and insane fools like estel 2014-06-09 16:19 As I said, people don't get nasty when times are good and there's a new N-model round the corner. 2014-06-09 16:20 Luke-Jr has quit [Excess Flood] 2014-06-09 16:20 estel does 2014-06-09 16:20 evidently 2014-06-09 16:20 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 16:20 I meant a new N-model from Nokia, and for free to selected "developers". I bet everyone was more cheerful then. 2014-06-09 16:21 not estel 2014-06-09 16:21 I think the measure of a community is made when times aren't great and there's no supposedly benevolent corporation pouring money into it. 2014-06-09 16:22 I think that's pretty much completely irrelevant, and your focus on developer-device-program which handed out a 200..300 devices total iirc, I don't get your point on that 2014-06-09 16:23 btw all DDP devices been loaners 2014-06-09 16:24 nobody ever really returned them, but Nokia *could* have asked for returning them any day 2014-06-09 16:25 and rules to evaluate who qualifies for a DDP-device are not justifying your appostrphes around "developers" 2014-06-09 16:26 also most community members were not exactly chearful about DDP since they never even thought trying to qualify themselves as maemo developer, Most ignored the DDP and some even got envy 2014-06-09 16:27 the latter particularly true when N950 DDP happened 2014-06-09 16:28 Well, I still wonder whether it really had the desired effect. I do know people who get developer devices, but they really were genuine developers. I suspect they were in a minority, though. 2014-06-09 16:28 * DocScrutinizer05 glares at the dust covered N950 in front of him 2014-06-09 16:30 and I dunno if it had the desired effect. Heck I don't even know what exactly been the effect *desired* by those who did the DDP 2014-06-09 16:30 Surely it's to get bottoms on seats and to build functionality and attractive software to get end-user bottoms on seats. 2014-06-09 16:30 when they hoped for one app per 5 DDP devices handed out then for sure they overcommitted their goals 2014-06-09 16:32 when it been field test of beta/pre-release versions of their OS, then damn sure they succeeded 2014-06-09 16:32 1 app per 5 devices? Were they lighting cigars with 100 EUR bills at Nokia Towers while claiming impending victory? 2014-06-09 16:32 when it been "create another media hype" then also success I'd say 2014-06-09 16:33 *shrug* 2014-06-09 16:33 this discussion feels strangely moot 2014-06-09 16:33 I'm not sure about success when there were three generations of developer devices and only then did they do the N9/N900. 2014-06-09 16:34 * DocScrutinizer05 emphasizes last post 2014-06-09 16:35 I'm for sure not up to defending every single decision Nokia management and merchandising department ever did. I think it's completely futile to even speculate 2014-06-09 16:35 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 16:36 All I really wanted to say was that the occasionally poisonous atmosphere of your favourite forum is a product of earlier times. 2014-06-09 16:37 I hope Neo900 gives people something to focus on because they seem to need it. 2014-06-09 16:39 wej_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2014-06-09 16:43 so much backlog 2014-06-09 16:46 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-06-09 16:47 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 16:48 only a humble 3 screenfull 2014-06-09 16:48 whitequark: What happened to that language/compiler project of yours? 2014-06-09 16:48 since your last post 2014-06-09 16:50 paul_boddie: http://whitequark.org/blog/2013/12/21/foundry-has-been-cancelled/ 2014-06-09 16:50 DocScrutinizer05: Will you go back to taking general donations for Neo900 at some point or hope to convert most of them and then go to the next stage? 2014-06-09 16:51 We will open up *some* form of donation option soon again. Actually it's already there, though hidden: http://neo900.org/donate and even http://neo900.org/funds-transfer 2014-06-09 16:52 I must admit that I've been tempted. Looking at smartphones in general is a hateful process. 2014-06-09 16:53 the problem is: I'm *very* reluctant* to ask for, or even just accept, donations from countries/regions where we anticipate an unclear or problematic shipping situation when it comes to delivering a device 2014-06-09 16:54 and since we haven't established any sort of list of locations where we expect to be able to ship to, this is the major blocking factor for a public invitation to donate for now 2014-06-09 16:54 whitequark: Is that Crystal thing (mentioned by a commenter on your blog) something like Shedskin but for Ruby? 2014-06-09 16:54 maybe I go the opposite way and offer to refund the donation when we can't ship 2014-06-09 16:55 I think I'd just donate and hopefully we'd be on speaking terms by the time you delivered. ;-) 2014-06-09 16:55 paul_boddie: sorta 2014-06-09 16:56 The Shedskin guy has done great stuff, but I'd be worried about "global type inference" in general. 2014-06-09 16:56 paul_boddie: you're welcome to do so any time :-) 2014-06-09 16:56 please make absolutely sure to send a mail in parallel, and mention that sending mail addr in subject of your money transfer 2014-06-09 16:57 whitequark: Did you consider sacrificing sacred parts of Ruby to more easily achieve your goals? 2014-06-09 16:57 twell us in that mail about your donation and what it's meant for 2014-06-09 16:57 phew, skipping ahead: 2014-06-09 16:57 paul_boddie: that's a really abstract suggestion 2014-06-09 16:57 Quick, wpwrak is catching up: more content required. ;-) 2014-06-09 16:58 paul_boddie: i think you can donate now: neo900.org/donate we just don't make much noise about it :) 2014-06-09 16:58 paul_boddie: I think, given unlimited time, I would eventually designed something very much like Rust 2014-06-09 16:58 whitequark: Well, in the Python world, as soon as you mention dropping any feature, everybody wails about it not being Python any more. 2014-06-09 16:58 Foundry would not have been Ruby at all 2014-06-09 16:58 in any case 2014-06-09 16:58 that became clear quite early on 2014-06-09 16:59 (neither are Crystal or Shedskin.) 2014-06-09 17:00 hmm, vice president at court, being read what he's being charged with. already three hours passed and he's still in there. i'm very curious about his face when he comes out :) 2014-06-09 17:00 But do you think it's worth using a selectively trimmed back version of Ruby instead of proper Ruby, or do you think that you'll just spend a lot of energy and arrive at the same place as Rust or Java? 2014-06-09 17:00 there has never been any arguing about making a "selectively trimmed back version of Ruby" 2014-06-09 17:00 or in other words, I never really wanted to make a Ruby *subset* 2014-06-09 17:01 Well, what I regard as Python is something which could easily be a subset of what people insist is Python today. 2014-06-09 17:01 there's mruby, which *is* a Ruby subset. it's kind of like Lua, functionally 2014-06-09 17:01 for starters, I intended to kill dynamic typing from almost very beginning 2014-06-09 17:01 But then again, I've been using Python for a long time and have seen things come and go. 2014-06-09 17:01 this alone makes the language pretty far from Ruby or Python 2014-06-09 17:02 lamrz has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2014-06-09 17:02 omarit has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2014-06-09 17:03 all you really need is asignment, var++; and if (var1 == var2) goto X; ;-) 2014-06-09 17:04 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-06-09 17:04 * whitequark slaps wpwrak around a bit with a large trout 2014-06-09 17:05 wpwrak: actually if you want to reduce to absurd, you only need one instruction, subleq 2014-06-09 17:05 * DocScrutinizer05 still tries to find the exact meaning of the term "speaking terms" 2014-06-09 17:05 DocScrutinizer05: "A and B are on speaking terms" ≡ "A speaks to B" 2014-06-09 17:05 ta 2014-06-09 17:05 "speaks" as in "A not told B he will never speak to the latter again" 2014-06-09 17:06 cool utf-8 you got there ;-) 2014-06-09 17:06 compose key 2014-06-09 17:06 compose what? _ = ? = - ? 2014-06-09 17:07 = _ 2014-06-09 17:07 = = ? 2014-06-09 17:07 :-) 2014-06-09 17:07 it may be a custom combination I have 2014-06-09 17:07 my intuation suggests it's not, _ = been my first guess :-) 2014-06-09 17:07 I have a lot of stuff there, like δ Δ ∋ ∈ λ 2014-06-09 17:08 and of course ಠ_ಠ and (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ 2014-06-09 17:08 the latter comes a bit garbled here 2014-06-09 17:08 or I simply don't get it 2014-06-09 17:09 it's called "table flip" 2014-06-09 17:09 (subleq) naw, assembler isn't fashionable again, yet 2014-06-09 17:09 ooh 2014-06-09 17:09 °□° are eyes and mouth. ╯╯ are the arms. ┻━┻ is the table. ︵ is "woosh" 2014-06-09 17:10 oooooh 2014-06-09 17:10 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 17:10 I've see a bull with horns: (╯°□°)╯ 2014-06-09 17:10 wtf you just pasted 2014-06-09 17:10 dang that doesn't even c&p 2014-06-09 17:10 it does for me :p 2014-06-09 17:11 Funny that a search for "Crystal language" gives the Wikipedia entry for David Crystal as the first hit. 2014-06-09 17:11 * whitequark uses konsole 2014-06-09 17:11 (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ 2014-06-09 17:11 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 17:11 ┻━┻ ︵ 2014-06-09 17:11 ╯ 2014-06-09 17:12 (╯°□°)╯ 2014-06-09 17:12 weird, nfc what went wrong 2014-06-09 17:12 hmm, there seems to be a fire somewhere nearby. firefighter trucks racing down the avenue, then turning into the neighbourhood, then shutting down the sirens somewhere in a ~100 m radius 2014-06-09 17:12 DocScrutinizer05: well, it actually still works. from a different perspective 2014-06-09 17:12 nothing to see, though 2014-06-09 17:13 wpwrak: when nothing to see, it's exactly under you 2014-06-09 17:13 anyway, it won't be where i live. that should still be too wet for burning ;-) 2014-06-09 17:13 ;-) / :-o 2014-06-09 17:13 funny: http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs/qi-hardware_2014-06-09.log.html 2014-06-09 17:14 huh? 2014-06-09 17:14 logs from http://irclog.whitequark.org/qi-hardware show it just like my client, but this one correctly interpreted that thing pasted by DocScrutinizer05 and fails at others 2014-06-09 17:14 still talking about that utf8 madness :) 2014-06-09 17:15 you prolly should've used a line tag 2014-06-09 17:15 dos1: for me, irclog.wq.org correctly interprets my and your paste 2014-06-09 17:15 but DocScrutinizer05's first attempt is garbage like in my client 2014-06-09 17:15 migrate to utf8 already 2014-06-09 17:15 http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs/qi-hardware_2014-06-09.log.html#t17:10 2014-06-09 17:15 well, duh. because they're broken in the same way 2014-06-09 17:16 prolly interpret everything as utf8-interpreted-as-iso8859-1 2014-06-09 17:17 the really funny part: my own client showed garbage which I posted only accidentally 2014-06-09 17:17 the qi-bot is not utf-8-enabled.. it is required to patch eggdrop in debian to get utf-8 (somewhat) working 2014-06-09 17:17 alternatively, rm `which eggdrop` 2014-06-09 17:18 http://wstaw.org/m/2014/06/09/plasma-desktopkb1787.png 2014-06-09 17:18 DocScrutinizer05: now that's almost right, except for ಠ_ಠ 2014-06-09 17:18 it uses a Devanagari (I think?) symbol, for which you evidently don't have fonts 2014-06-09 17:19 "The unicode character “ಠ” comes from the letter “ṭha” in Kannada, one of the major Dravidian languages of India that is influenced by Sanskrit." 2014-06-09 17:19 you're aware I see same black square all the time? 2014-06-09 17:20 yes. key word: "same" 2014-06-09 17:21 no, I meant "same" ;-) 2014-06-09 17:21 can't you read the 9 chars in it? here, count for yourself: SAME 2014-06-09 17:22 ;-P 2014-06-09 17:22 IOW I have nfc what you're talking about 2014-06-09 17:23 ttp://unicode.org/cldr/utility/character.jsp?a=0ca0 2014-06-09 17:23 give me the U-nnnn value or the symbolic name of the char 2014-06-09 17:23 aaah ok 2014-06-09 17:24 well, not really 2014-06-09 17:24 that website is full of ads links 2014-06-09 17:24 and nothing else 2014-06-09 17:24 http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/block/miscellaneous_symbols/utf8test.htm here you are 2014-06-09 17:25 ugh, you ommitted a "h" 2014-06-09 17:25 :-S 2014-06-09 17:26 ads links!? 2014-06-09 17:26 that's the official unicode website and it doesn't have any ads 2014-06-09 17:27 BWAHAHAHA ttp://unicode.org/cldr/utility/character.jsp?a=0ca0 shows expected ads garbage, while http://unicode.org/cldr/utility/character.jsp?a=0ca0 shows *same* black square again 2014-06-09 17:28 oh, it's not an image 2014-06-09 17:28 http://wstaw.org/m/2014/06/09/plasma-desktopkK1787.png 2014-06-09 17:28 http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/0ca0/index.htm 2014-06-09 17:29 http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/ca0/index.htm 2014-06-09 17:29 ugh 2014-06-09 17:29 you been faster 2014-06-09 17:30 I can figure that emoticon would lok really cool on systems that have the needed fontset 2014-06-09 17:30 look* 2014-06-09 17:31 rz2k has quit [] 2014-06-09 17:31 yea, most modern systems do 2014-06-09 17:33 I broke my touch digitizer of my smartphone :( 2014-06-09 17:40 paul_boddie has quit [] 2014-06-09 17:51 "Send suspicious downloaded files to Google" 2014-06-09 17:51 WTF, Chromium 2014-06-09 17:53 chromium brwoser strongly deprecated by c't (heise) in their article about privacy on android, exactly for privacy reasons 2014-06-09 17:54 chromium on android is a very different beast 2014-06-09 17:54 on desktops it's FOSS, on android it is not (afaik) 2014-06-09 17:54 mhm 2014-06-09 17:54 never even looked into it 2014-06-09 17:54 at least I'm not aware of a way to build it 2014-06-09 17:54 the default Android browser is mostly fine though 2014-06-09 17:55 I think chromium *is* the android default browser? 2014-06-09 17:55 chrome is 2014-06-09 17:55 ugh 2014-06-09 17:55 no, it is not 2014-06-09 17:55 there's AOSP browser 2014-06-09 17:55 well, maybe it is now, it wasn't ~year ago 2014-06-09 17:56 (at least on my android) 2014-06-09 17:56 chrome, chromium, wtf? 2014-06-09 17:56 chromium is FOSS, chrome is chromium + google anal probe 2014-06-09 17:56 sounds about right ;-P 2014-06-09 17:56 chromium is generally OK in that it has all the evil stuff optional and mostly even disabled by default 2014-06-09 17:57 I honstly can't recall if that artocle said "chrome" or "chromium" 2014-06-09 17:57 though they migrated to some homebrewn graphics toolkit (?) instead of gtk in the latest update and that doesn't respect system DPI settings 2014-06-09 17:57 ugh 2014-06-09 17:57 and XCompose is broken too 2014-06-09 17:57 fuckers 2014-06-09 17:58 in AOSP the browser is fully open source (sounds logical, you're supposed to be able to build AOSP from scratch) ... but I don't know if it's Chromium or something else ... might be chromium indeed 2014-06-09 17:59 no, it's not related to chromium 2014-06-09 17:59 it uses system webkit (webview) with some simple interface written around it 2014-06-09 17:59 yes ok makes sense 2014-06-09 18:00 never heard of AOSP, and happy about it 2014-06-09 18:00 android open source project 2014-06-09 18:00 basically, the android tree released under BSD is called "AOSP" 2014-06-09 18:00 it's the Android you can build yourself 2014-06-09 18:00 as opposed to the crap that vendors like Samsung put into phones 2014-06-09 18:00 well... 2014-06-09 18:00 CyanogenMod = AOSP + drivers + few useful tools 2014-06-09 18:01 I guess I can't tell my gf to move ot cyanogen or ASOP 2014-06-09 18:01 or* 2014-06-09 18:01 cyanogen is perfectly fine to run as your day-to-day firmware 2014-06-09 18:02 well it depends on her phone 2014-06-09 18:02 but lots of phones are supported by cyanogen 2014-06-09 18:02 it works much better than vendor firmwares, because it's not bloated by various shit that spies on you and shows you ads 2014-06-09 18:02 and forces you to use services you'd rather not even know about 2014-06-09 18:02 but usually if you want your cyanogen to work "as well " (or in fact better) than the stock firmware, you still need some closed source blob 2014-06-09 18:02 sure, but how would I sell that to her? 2014-06-09 18:03 it's not like I could do service on her phone on a daily basis 2014-06-09 18:03 why would you need that? 2014-06-09 18:03 just put it there and forget 2014-06-09 18:03 I had a hard time teaching her how to do backups on her PC every now and then 2014-06-09 18:04 AOSP is not Gentoo, it's basically how Android should have always worked, which is, much better than how most phones actually work 2014-06-09 18:04 usually cyanogen let's you customize better than stock ROM 2014-06-09 18:04 and just getting latest Samsung firmware update installed to that tab2 been a PITA that took hours in the end 2014-06-09 18:05 for normal users (Customers I would say) they can keep the original firmware if they don't feel they need something to be different 2014-06-09 18:05 sb0_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2014-06-09 18:06 errr note2 2014-06-09 18:06 ? 2014-06-09 18:06 with cyanogen your phone is usually rooted by default so you have tons of apps like firewalls, anti ads, data backup applications, VPN stuff, VOIP apps 2014-06-09 18:06 tethering when stock rom had it disabled 2014-06-09 18:06 sure, but my GF doesn't give a F 2014-06-09 18:07 then I guess she can stay on stock rom 2014-06-09 18:07 if she's happy with stock rom, moving to anything else is pointless 2014-06-09 18:07 clearly 2014-06-09 18:07 if she really gives a shit about having "mostly open source ROM" then she would be interested in cyanogen 2014-06-09 18:07 this + customizing 2014-06-09 18:08 well, I've had people thank me for 1) removing all the bloatware 2) as a result, making device more responsive 2014-06-09 18:08 that's what she expects me to do, yes 2014-06-09 18:08 cyanogen is very noticeably faster on some devices 2014-06-09 18:08 remove the bloatware and crap 2014-06-09 18:08 because it doesn't have all the vendor-installed background services doing some obscure pointless shit 2014-06-09 18:09 and taking up loads of RAM 2014-06-09 18:09 speed is not an issue, phone is *always* too slow for her 2014-06-09 18:09 even a supercomputer would be too slow for her 2014-06-09 18:09 lamrz has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 18:09 a supercomputer doesn't necessarily have low latency, it rather has high throughput 2014-06-09 18:09 which could indeed feel slow 2014-06-09 18:10 what phone is it? 2014-06-09 18:10 note2? 2014-06-09 18:10 oh 2014-06-09 18:10 cyanogen works on that 2014-06-09 18:11 maybe, but *I* don't ;-) 2014-06-09 18:11 http://download.cyanogenmod.org/?device=n7100 2014-06-09 18:12 well, and then? I already can't answer her questions when she calls me because "this doesn't work!!1!11!" 2014-06-09 18:12 beware that if she is fan of some samsung rom feature that's not in cyanogen ... she might say "aaah this does not work anymore" 2014-06-09 18:12 for now I can tell her to look into any tutorial she might find on devoce 2014-06-09 18:13 like I don't know, split screen with 2 apps 2014-06-09 18:13 hardly 2014-06-09 18:13 or drawing a square with the pencile on the screen and running an app in the square 2014-06-09 18:13 o.O 2014-06-09 18:13 or the proprietary voice recognition software 2014-06-09 18:13 that one she loves 2014-06-09 18:13 or the proprietary text to speech engine (which is wayyyy better than the one in AOSP) 2014-06-09 18:14 that one maybe too 2014-06-09 18:14 samsung is paying a subcontractant about TTS 2014-06-09 18:14 which is a good one 2014-06-09 18:14 google has its own TTS 2014-06-09 18:14 yes 2014-06-09 18:15 which you get if you install google services over cyanogen (nontechnical folks usually do) 2014-06-09 18:15 googles TTS understands me pretty well actually 2014-06-09 18:15 she hates typing on c-ts, so she's very much in love with voice recognition for texting 2014-06-09 18:15 which is less good than the other one from I dont remember the company name 2014-06-09 18:15 Android uses Chromium engine for WebView in 4.4 2014-06-09 18:15 previously it was some old webkit, not related to Chromium 2014-06-09 18:15 ah SVOX 2014-06-09 18:16 that's a good TTS 2014-06-09 18:16 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 2014-06-09 18:16 she pesters me to finally build Neo900, so she can get one to have a proper hw kbd :-) 2014-06-09 18:16 :D 2014-06-09 18:16 don't bother then :p 2014-06-09 18:17 (with android) 2014-06-09 18:17 but I don't know what's the default browser app in AOSP 4.4 2014-06-09 18:18 AFAIK devices with Android 4.4 don't come with stock browser anyone, they use Chrome 2014-06-09 18:18 so maybe it's Chromium now in AOSP? 2014-06-09 18:18 I don't think so 2014-06-09 18:18 sb0_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 18:18 or no browser at all? ;o 2014-06-09 18:19 AOSP comes with the "basic" browser, and google phones come with Chrome I think 2014-06-09 18:19 I'm pretty sure google phones don't come with AOSP 2014-06-09 18:19 in term of apps I'm sure 2014-06-09 18:19 "With KitKat, Google completely killed the AOSP browser and even stopped actively updating it. " 2014-06-09 18:19 since google apps are not in AOSP 2014-06-09 18:20 and google phone comes with google apps (gmail, chrome, youtube, google calendar etc) 2014-06-09 18:20 FSCK kitkat! 2014-06-09 18:20 now that's totally completely insane to package a complete OS as a adware 2014-06-09 18:21 I will never ever again eat a KitKat 2014-06-09 18:22 :D 2014-06-09 18:22 "do you use KitKat, CocaCola, or Bailey's?" WAAAAAHHHH! 2014-06-09 18:22 let's rebrand to Oreo900 :) 2014-06-09 18:22 ahah 2014-06-09 18:22 and I bet on KitKat you can only have red background colors 2014-06-09 18:23 actually, I fail to notice any major diference between 4.x Android versions when I see them sometimes from user perspective 2014-06-09 18:24 maybe when you actually use them instead of looking over the shoulder of other people you see something, but for me it's all the same :P 2014-06-09 18:25 the main thing I noticed is the innovative semi-transparent top bar in 4.4 ;) 2014-06-09 18:25 I love the stylus of note2 2014-06-09 18:26 and actually that's been the selling point for my GF 2014-06-09 18:26 since, you know... she hates c-ts 2014-06-09 18:27 same with friend from work 2014-06-09 18:27 she brings it sometimes when we want to test something on tablets 2014-06-09 18:27 it's "capacitive screen finally made somewhat bearable" :D 2014-06-09 18:28 and the note2 stylus comes with pressure sensing, and an awesome "right mouse button" 2014-06-09 18:29 honestly if it wasn't for android, i'd feel tempted... ;-) 2014-06-09 18:29 I still hate all those accidental touches on c-ts 2014-06-09 18:29 :nod: 2014-06-09 18:30 too sensitive, too inexact 2014-06-09 18:30 how are you supposed to hold such device when lying in bed for instance? 2014-06-09 18:30 Raster never got ny point on that one 2014-06-09 18:30 my* 2014-06-09 18:30 no way to be comfortable and not screw up whatever you're doing with accidental touches on edges 2014-06-09 18:31 capacitive screens should have bezels like freerunner's one :P 2014-06-09 18:31 hehe 2014-06-09 18:32 http://openpet.lbl.gov/Documentation/General_Docs/OpenPET_UserGuide_v1.0.pdf 2014-06-09 18:33 * DocScrutinizer05 calls gf to do tough interrogation on when been last time she connected note2 to her laptop and started the PC-software to allow it making a backup 2014-06-09 18:34 she broke the hooker800 I gave to her, and all her contacts lost since whe never did any backup 2014-06-09 18:34 then she got the Note2 2014-06-09 18:34 I still don't buy the "I accidentally dropped it" - I bet she got angry and bashed it into the wall ;-P 2014-06-09 18:35 oooh, bashing a phone into the wall 2014-06-09 18:35 how I love that 2014-06-09 18:36 harly anything else you could do with a windows phone 2014-06-09 18:36 hardly* 2014-06-09 18:36 wtf is c-ts? 2014-06-09 18:37 capacitive touchscreen? 2014-06-09 18:37 capacitive ts 2014-06-09 18:37 yup 2014-06-09 18:38 hmm, only 3.9°C higher outside, maybe time to finally open the windows 2014-06-09 18:39 it's never time to open Windows 2014-06-09 18:40 OpenWindows? BWAHAHAHA 2014-06-09 18:46 lamrz_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 18:47 lamrz_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-06-09 18:47 kristianpaul has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-06-09 18:52 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 18:52 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 18:53 wolfspra1l has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 18:56 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 2014-06-09 19:21 kewl. after a lunch break of a few minutes, the vice president continues to be grilled in court. that's now more than five hours minus the lunch break ("of a few minutes") 2014-06-09 19:29 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-06-09 19:44 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 19:48 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-06-09 19:50 tumdedum has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 2014-06-09 19:52 wtf? http://wstaw.org/m/2014/06/09/plasma-desktopLE1787.png (more strange rendering of strange chars) 2014-06-09 19:53 wpwrak: the longer this takes, the more likely nobody is willing to actually decide on it. In the end he will get away with it since court boggles from complexity of the case 2014-06-09 19:57 tumdedum has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 20:01 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 20:02 souser has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 20:02 souser has left #qi-hardware [#qi-hardware] 2014-06-09 20:14 oh no, that's how it works here. anything in justice takes several years. for example, the government didn't adjust pensions for inflation. so retirees started lawsuits. eventually, the building that held the document was closed because it was at risk of collapsing under the sheer weight of the documents. 2014-06-09 20:14 and of course, the government is playing on the old people to die before their case it settled. 2014-06-09 20:20 mth has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 2014-06-09 20:25 mth has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 20:42 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 20:52 jekhor_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 20:55 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-06-09 22:16 news from the vice president. now, after being grilled by the judge for six hours, he's about to leave the building. takes him quite a while, it seem. what's the time it typically takes for the cocaine to kick in and for you to feel on top of the world again ? :) 2014-06-09 22:26 I'd guess that depends on a huge number of parameters 2014-06-09 22:27 usually the placebo effect kicks in instantly 2014-06-09 22:29 hehe :) 2014-06-09 22:32 btw it seems this instant set-on time of placebo effect gets massively ignored in efficiency studies for pharmaceuticals. It would be a really easy way to tell apart the placebo effects from real pharmaceutical effects 2014-06-09 22:37 jekhor_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2014-06-09 22:39 it's really amazing and almost a miracle. Pharmacological scientists tests stuff like: provide immune suppressor (after transplantation) as a juice with a very typical unusual aroma. After only a few days, remove the suppressor substance and provide placebo juice of same taste. Tests show it has identical immune system suppressing properties like the original medication, though without the side effects 2014-06-09 22:40 source? 2014-06-09 22:40 TV 2014-06-09 22:40 sorry 2014-06-09 22:40 I don't know if your TV is like ours, but ours frequently touts stuff like urinotherapy as something that actually works 2014-06-09 22:41 I mean, they unironically show people that say "omg I drank piss for a month and my cancer was cured" 2014-06-09 22:41 * whitequark shrugs 2014-06-09 22:41 I severely doubt the correctness of your claim; if you really want to see if it's true, pubmed probably has an entry. 2014-06-09 22:42 nope, ours isn't like that. When they interview a scientists Maier from university XY then you usually can assume that's not made up by TV, and you'd hope it's also not made up by the professor 2014-06-09 22:43 still, unless there is a publication in something peer-reviewed, the claim is simply garbage 2014-06-09 22:43 and if there is a publication, it *may* not be garbage, but also may be 2014-06-09 22:43 what you mean is called commercials here. Or to be found in commercial TV channels like RTL 2014-06-09 22:44 I'm never watching those for reality stuff, only to watch NCIS etc 2014-06-09 22:44 in medicine, I wouldn't look at anything less than a decently sized meta-analysis, simply because I don't have the expertise to assess the claim properly 2014-06-09 22:45 sure, whatever works for you 2014-06-09 22:46 probably in your country with your TV it's the correct approach like "it's been told in TV, so it must be a lie" 2014-06-09 22:46 that's one factor 2014-06-09 22:46 and yes, I of course know about scientists who make up stuff to get more funds 2014-06-09 22:47 still, a claim of a single researcher, even more so an *outlandish* claim, to which the media is biased, should be treated with doubt 2014-06-09 22:47 who said about making stuff up? a honest mistake. 2014-06-09 22:47 or wishful thinking because of an immense pressure to release a paper 2014-06-09 22:48 sure, possible. But then, it's pretty much in line with expectations 2014-06-09 22:48 if you actually read the publication itself, very often you can see that it, for example, has 15 data points, the prediction barely fits, and there's no mechanism that would explain the observed effect 2014-06-09 22:49 which means that they either cherry-picked the data or just were lucky. it's more or less normal, but it's also the reason you don't treat single publications as some kind of gospel. you look at them in aggregate 2014-06-09 22:49 you treat some of my story telling like a gospel 2014-06-09 22:49 you tell it very much like gospel 2014-06-09 22:50 I'm pretty much aware of all you quoted 2014-06-09 22:50 aha 2014-06-09 22:50 while you have a "as far as I know" in *every* sentence, right? ;-) 2014-06-09 22:51 I try to abstain from making outlandish claims without that, and if I do, slap me silly, because I shouldn't 2014-06-09 22:51 define outlandish please 2014-06-09 22:52 "fact: pharma companies ignore trivial properties of placebo effect that even an EE knows" 2014-06-09 22:53 welp, maybe I should just mentally /ignore everything you say not about EE (and adjacent areas) :p 2014-06-09 22:55 when i quote one detail from a report about placebos, I don't think I have to assume this single one must be incorrect because it sounds too strange to some guy in Moskow. When it is in line with all other results of similar resp related tests, about efficiency of analgetica, even depending on the color of the pill, about placebo effects of fake analgetica even tested by EEG and PET, and by studies about homoepatics which in same 2014-06-09 22:55 report been considered a special form of placebo, then I dunno... 2014-06-09 22:56 fact: pharma companies have a vital interest to ignore that well known fact 2014-06-09 22:56 but yeah, please ignore anything I say, I'm bored by your criticism 2014-06-09 22:57 fact: TV companies have a vested interest in feeding you whatever bullshit makes you watch more ads 2014-06-09 22:58 you're telling brown stnking bullshit, in germany we have 2 channels that are NOT operated by any sort of company, and I told you I only watch those two for any sort of fact gathering 2014-06-09 22:58 but meh, how should you even know about such facts 2014-06-09 22:59 please do me a favor and /ignore 2014-06-09 23:03 http://hackaday.com/2014/06/09/thp-entry-an-affordable-metal-3d-printer-2/ 2014-06-09 23:08 oh, and yes, going by the principles of immune system most susceptible to controlling effects of psyche/subconscious aka placebo effect, actually drinking urine _might_ indeed yield positive effects as long as those doing it believe it will cure them. It is sufficiently intrusive/invasive/disgusting to cause massive placebo effects 2014-06-09 23:12 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 23:12 IOW to do it you must really really believe it will help you, and that conviction alone is already a good therapeutic for cancer 2014-06-09 23:13 ^^^THIS *is* proven by several studies 2014-06-09 23:14 source? 2014-06-09 23:14 I'd be really interested in reading that. 2014-06-09 23:15 wolfspra1l has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2014-06-09 23:20 sorces fro depression causing weak immune response? source for people more often dying from cancer when they have no perspective in life, and most healings being accompanied by the patient changing his life and avoiding stress? Go to any arbitrary oncologist and ask him for sources, when you can't find your own evidence in your daily life 2014-06-09 23:20 hm: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24733568 2014-06-09 23:21 seems to not be in print yet... 2014-06-09 23:22 fascinating, still 2014-06-09 23:32 wej_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-06-09 23:33 aha. this is a pretty great overview: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16887325 2014-06-09 23:34 (pdf: http://libgen.org/scimag4/10.1016/j.bbi.2006.05.003.pdf) 2014-06-09 23:35 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-06-09 23:38 I'm fed up with having to cite .gov texts to prove my statements. Nevermind 2014-06-09 23:39 better just make claims based on thin air! 2014-06-09 23:39 beter just /ignore DocScrutinizer05 2014-06-09 23:40 my thin air is 1000 times thicker than your bitching 2014-06-09 23:42 your studies you dug up are pretty much supporting every single point I made. Thanks a lot for that, no take your thin air bashing and eat it! 2014-06-09 23:42 now* 2014-06-09 23:46 just I don't need friggin studies to know, I witnessed that stuff myself in my immediate kin, and also heard it from several doctors since decades. Next time you ask "which study is that?" I will ask +you* for a study proving I'm wrong 2014-06-09 23:51 wait, no. won't happen since you ignore me now, and same applies to me for any questions like this from your side 2014-06-09 23:51 ETX 2014-06-09 23:51 hmm, vice prez finally left the courthouse at 20:30. seemed relaxed and in a condition to talk coherently. damn, i was so hoping to find him nervous and tired. 2014-06-09 23:58 wpwrak: you really hoped for that? you're dreaming, he slept it away 2014-06-09 23:58 the time it took him to come out was for waking up 2014-06-09 23:58 ;-P 2014-06-09 23:59 heh :)