2014-06-05 00:50 <wpwrak> nowadays probably TONs :)
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2014-06-05 01:37 <nicksydney> wpwrak: really ? thought it would be something like 8 or 10 :)
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2014-06-05 04:02 <nicksydney> wpwrak: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/simd-engines-comparative-reference-guide
2014-06-05 04:02 <wpwrak> ... and i should have noticed that anelok v1 uses 60 mil pads for test point while ybox v2 uses 80 mil. wonder if i should make the ones in anelok a bit larger. in theory, 60 mil still ought to be more than enough, but ...
2014-06-05 04:02 <nicksydney> is it really worth backing up ?
2014-06-05 04:02 <nicksydney> i go with60mil
2014-06-05 04:05 <wpwrak> in the test fixture for ybox i also screwed up the position somehow. the generous tolerance may thus have helped. but then, not screwing up the next time may be a decent plan, too :)
2014-06-05 04:07 <wpwrak> (simd book) dunno. i never used these critters. if it's something you need, why not ?
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2014-06-05 05:04 <DocScrutinizer05> seedmatch sounds like the better alternative to kickstarter and pink Neo900
2014-06-05 05:05 <DocScrutinizer05> and no, i don't think the project should wait with already planning and initiating step 2
2014-06-05 05:06 <DocScrutinizer05> step 1 will profit from step 2
2014-06-05 05:06 <DocScrutinizer05> and step 2 will profit from sufficient lead in time
2014-06-05 05:07 <DocScrutinizer05> e.g. we could already fund sw development from capital for step2 and use Neo900 as development platform
2014-06-05 05:10 <DocScrutinizer05> the patch to GTA02 also been via GTA01, and the path to N900 been via 770 and N800/10
2014-06-05 05:10 <DocScrutinizer05> path*
2014-06-05 05:10 <DocScrutinizer05> and those paths took years
2014-06-05 05:12 <DocScrutinizer05> the question isn't whether we should start step2 now or later, the question is if we think we want to start it at all
2014-06-05 05:17 <DocScrutinizer05> Neo900 has natural limits of growth, we can't build significantly larger number of devices than a thousand, we won't be able to source unlimited number of mech parts from N900
2014-06-05 05:18 <DocScrutinizer05> and the time is right
2014-06-05 05:18 <DocScrutinizer05> for a secure and safe mobile phone
2014-06-05 05:29 <DocScrutinizer05> tbh I'm surprised about the amount of support Neo900 received without already presenting any plausible perspective for step2, aka "the future of Neo900"
2014-06-05 05:32 <DocScrutinizer05> presenting such perspective now will attract more prospects to Neo900 from the community that's interested in an open linux phone, as well as from the wider public that's interested in an alternative to Samsung et al which *really* respects user's privacy and freedom
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2014-06-05 06:07 <nicksydney> another MIPS product http://blog.imgtec.com/mips-processors/inside-the-new-dhanush-wearable-chipsets-from-ineda-systems  http://www.inedasystems.com/dhanush-wpu.html
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2014-06-05 07:05 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: I know you'll hate the idea, but maybe it's a good idea to advertise neo900 to the android community
2014-06-05 07:05 <whitequark> because http://beranger.org/2014/06/01/android-4-5-end-of-road/
2014-06-05 07:05 <whitequark> tl;dr google killed rootable phones
2014-06-05 07:10 <whitequark> otoh: >>we can't build significantly larger number of devices than a thousand<< may be a problem with this plan...
2014-06-05 07:16 <DocScrutinizer05> that's why step2 comes in just in time right now
2014-06-05 07:17 <DocScrutinizer05> advertising to android community makes zilch sense without such NeoTwo plan clearly explained and exposed
2014-06-05 07:18 <DocScrutinizer05> on "killed rootable"... what did they do? tiviozation?
2014-06-05 07:20 <DocScrutinizer05> whitequark: ^^^
2014-06-05 07:26 <whitequark> Selinux
2014-06-05 07:27 <whitequark> see, technically, if *you* can root your phone, *any* app you download, some Candy Crush or similar shit, can establish a persistent threat
2014-06-05 07:27 <whitequark> so on one hand what they did is good for security
2014-06-05 07:27 <whitequark> but on other hand, as a side effect, it takes the last bit of control out of users' hands
2014-06-05 07:27 <DocScrutinizer05> technically that's not correct
2014-06-05 07:27 <whitequark> I mean, sure, they could leave an unlockable bootloader and allow you to reflash
2014-06-05 07:27 <whitequark> and on Nexus series it's true
2014-06-05 07:28 <whitequark> but Samsung, HTC, ... don't do that
2014-06-05 07:28 <DocScrutinizer05> when you need a key that's not available on the phone, or a special procedure like connecting the phone to a PC via USB
2014-06-05 07:29 <DocScrutinizer05> techically nobody can root my device after *I* rooted it ;-)
2014-06-05 07:29 <whitequark> not true, rooting android phones is almost always done with a local privilege escalation in kernel
2014-06-05 07:30 <whitequark> and given the sorry state of upstream drivers, you can hardly install a more recent kernel with that fixed
2014-06-05 07:30 <DocScrutinizer05> that's a bug that could and SHOULD be fixed, easily and immediately
2014-06-05 07:30 <whitequark> that's the state of the majority of phones on market, dozens of easily exploitable local vulnerabilities
2014-06-05 07:31 <whitequark> used for rooting
2014-06-05 07:31 <whitequark> the phones with unlockable bootloaders are a sad minority
2014-06-05 07:31 <DocScrutinizer05> give user *full* control (aka root access) on device, enforce proper password on first boot, and done
2014-06-05 07:31 <whitequark> vendors don't *want* to give users root access
2014-06-05 07:31 <DocScrutinizer05> that's the problem
2014-06-05 07:32 <DocScrutinizer05> Neo900 is the solution
2014-06-05 07:32 <whitequark> those who do require to sign ridiculous waivers like "we're not responsible if you kill yourself with the phone"
2014-06-05 07:32 <whitequark> which explains why they don't want
2014-06-05 07:32 <whitequark> lawyers gone mad
2014-06-05 07:32 <DocScrutinizer05> idiots
2014-06-05 07:33 <DocScrutinizer05> they ARE (first and foremost) responsible for vulnerabilities and the damage done by those
2014-06-05 07:33 <whitequark> no, the reasoning is like, "you can tweak hardware directly, therefore you will cause your phone to melt in your pocket and burn you"
2014-06-05 07:34 <DocScrutinizer05> so instead of doing it right and granting user the ability to fix any such vulnerability, they just go further the opposite wrong direction
2014-06-05 07:34 <whitequark> "and we don't want to be responsible for that"
2014-06-05 07:34 <DocScrutinizer05> then they have terribly poor EE
2014-06-05 07:35 <DocScrutinizer05> I can tell you there is no way to make e.g. a N900 melt
2014-06-05 07:35 <DocScrutinizer05> fry the CPU, sure, but not melt
2014-06-05 07:35 <whitequark> I'm 100% sure no software can make your phone kill you
2014-06-05 07:36 <DocScrutinizer05> it's a lame excuse for them not wanting to give up control over their sheep
2014-06-05 07:36 <whitequark> so here's your answer, lawyers gone mad
2014-06-05 07:36 <whitequark> exactly
2014-06-05 07:36 <DocScrutinizer05> o/ off for a walk
2014-06-05 07:37 <DocScrutinizer05> I need some fresh breeze and new inspirations to push on Neo900 towards breaking new ground
2014-06-05 07:38 <DocScrutinizer05> the time is right like never before it been
2014-06-05 07:38 <whitequark> great
2014-06-05 07:38 <DocScrutinizer05> thanks for letting me know about this android crappy move
2014-06-05 07:39 <DocScrutinizer05> just one more for you: do you think a 2 core 1.6GHz A9 can run a VM?
2014-06-05 07:39 <DocScrutinizer05> reasonably fast?
2014-06-05 07:41 <DocScrutinizer05> given we soon see lots of servers based on ARM, the VM itself shouldn't be much of a problem
2014-06-05 07:41 <DocScrutinizer05> maybe it actually already exists
2014-06-05 07:42 <DocScrutinizer05> "which phone model do you want to use today?" ;-)
2014-06-05 07:43 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: it's not really "just a VM"
2014-06-05 07:43 <DocScrutinizer05> I know, a tad more
2014-06-05 07:43 <whitequark> Android precompiles the Dalvik (Java) bytecode to ARM native code
2014-06-05 07:44 <whitequark> in other words, 2 core 1.6GHz A9 is about three times more powerful than you really need
2014-06-05 07:44 <whitequark> plenty of chinese phones get by with MUCH less
2014-06-05 07:44 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm, that still should be fine on an ARM core
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2014-06-05 07:44 <whitequark> servers based on ARM will be based on AArch64
2014-06-05 07:44 <DocScrutinizer05> :nod:
2014-06-05 07:44 <whitequark> aka ARMv8 64-bit, it's quite very different architecture
2014-06-05 07:44 <whitequark> somewhat changed ISA and very significantly changed silicon
2014-06-05 07:45 <whitequark> though, latest iphone runs on ARMv8.
2014-06-05 07:45 <whitequark> does Neo900 have any kind of GPU?
2014-06-05 07:47 <whitequark> ugh powervr sgx
2014-06-05 07:47 <whitequark> I suppose it would work for accelerating interface though
2014-06-05 07:48 <whitequark> and I suppose rz2k (not in channel right now...) could help us figure out all the multitude of reasons this crap doesn't work well :)
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2014-06-05 08:21 * whitequark sighs
2014-06-05 08:22 <whitequark> ok, der/das/die aren't so hard. what is really hard is the verbs, mainly because it uses various terms like "conjugate" and "indicative" and whatever, in other words, assuming that the reader was taught all the useless grammar-related terminology in primary school or somethin
2014-06-05 08:29 <larsc> kindergarden ;)
2014-06-05 08:32 <whitequark> in RU I had to memorize it in primary school. the 4 years of education after kindergarten
2014-06-05 08:32 <whitequark> but the terms don't map to english at all and frankly they hardly even make sense in russian
2014-06-05 08:32 <whitequark> and I blissfully forgot most of it anyway
2014-06-05 08:33 * whitequark shudders
2014-06-05 08:33 <larsc> I'm not even sure we learned to conjugate in school or whether we were supposed to know how to do it
2014-06-05 08:34 <whitequark> I believe there was a whole year or even two dedicated to that stuff
2014-06-05 08:34 <whitequark> in excruciating detail
2014-06-05 08:35 <larsc> actually, yea, I think there was a lot of "Ich gehe, du gehst, er/sie/es geht, wir gehen, ihr geht, sie gehen"
2014-06-05 08:35 <whitequark> oh, hm. nominative, genitive, dative, accusative, (two more I can't easily find)
2014-06-05 08:36 <whitequark> but actually these terms are just literal translations of russian ones. weird, I never noticed it earlier
2014-06-05 08:36 <whitequark> "genitive" in russian has same root as in "giving birth" and I could never figure out wtf is up with the name
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2014-06-05 09:02 <ysionneau> when you learned latin you are used to those "accusative" etc stuff
2014-06-05 09:03 <ysionneau> and in French there are some relic of declension (qui que quoi dont où)
2014-06-05 09:10 <whitequark> latin?
2014-06-05 09:14 <ysionneau> yes Latin is heavily using nominative accusative genitive dative ablative etc cases for nouns
2014-06-05 09:15 <ysionneau> you have like 5 types of declensions
2014-06-05 09:15 <ysionneau> it's hell to learn :)
2014-06-05 09:15 <whitequark> why would you want to learn it?..
2014-06-05 09:15 <ysionneau> to study old texts for instance
2014-06-05 09:15 <ysionneau> like someone would like to learn old greek
2014-06-05 09:16 <ysionneau> personally I didn't have the choice :p
2014-06-05 09:16 <ysionneau> at my school Latin was mandatory
2014-06-05 09:16 <whitequark> wow. hardcore
2014-06-05 09:16 <ysionneau> and I was very bad at it though
2014-06-05 09:16 <ysionneau> France and its elitist education system :)
2014-06-05 09:17 <ysionneau> please learn complex Math and useless languages just for the sake of showing you are smart
2014-06-05 09:17 <ysionneau> then you can rule the country or big companies
2014-06-05 09:17 <ysionneau> :D
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2014-06-05 11:07 <apelete> hi larsc
2014-06-05 11:07 <larsc> hi
2014-06-05 11:08 <apelete> would you know how to read a CONFIG_MMC_DEBUG log output ? -> http://paste.debian.net/103460/
2014-06-05 11:09 <apelete> lately I tried to understand why the mmc driver returning EIO in mmc_blk_issue_rw_rq() at drivers/mmc/card/block.c
2014-06-05 11:09 <apelete> and I tracked it down to mmc_start_req() at drivers/mmc/card/block.c
2014-06-05 11:10 <apelete> where it runs mmc_wait_for_data_req_done() which seems to fail
2014-06-05 11:11 <apelete> but I can't yet know why because the kernel just hangs at that point (screen flickers and everything just hang, neither gdb nor the ben does respond anymore)
2014-06-05 11:12 <larsc> maybe your DMA goes havok and overwrites random memory
2014-06-05 11:14 <apelete> yeah, I'm trying to understand why
2014-06-05 11:15 <apelete> was wondering if I set something wrong during DMA configuration in jz4740_mmc.c
2014-06-05 11:16 <apelete> which would explain why it is tranferring 0 bytes of data:
2014-06-05 11:16 <apelete> [    3.100000] mmc0: starting CMD18 arg 00000000 flags 000000b5
2014-06-05 11:16 <apelete> [    3.120000] mmc0:     CMD12 arg 00000000 flags 0000049d
2014-06-05 11:16 <apelete> [    3.110000] mmc0:     blksz 512 blocks 8 flags 00000200 tsac 100 ms nsac 0
2014-06-05 11:16 <apelete> [    3.130000] jz4740-dma jz4740-dma: vchan 80d3b8f8: txd 8183cc00[7]: submitted
2014-06-05 11:16 <apelete> [    3.140000] jz4740-dma jz4740-dma: txd 8183cc00[0]: marked complete
2014-06-05 11:17 <apelete> [    3.150000] jz4740-mmc jz4740-mmc.0: DMA command completed
2014-06-05 11:17 <apelete> [    3.160000] mmc0: req done (CMD18): 0: 00000900 00000000 00000000 00000000
2014-06-05 11:17 <apelete> [    3.170000] mmc0:     0 bytes transferred: 0
2014-06-05 11:17 <apelete> [    3.190000] mmc0:     (CMD12): 0: 00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000
2014-06-05 11:17 <apelete> larsc: what does the following line mean to you ?
2014-06-05 11:17 <apelete> [    3.170000] mmc0:     0 bytes transferred: 0
2014-06-05 11:18 <larsc> 0 bytes transferred ;)
2014-06-05 11:18 <apelete> :)
2014-06-05 11:19 <apelete> ok, I guess we agree on the semantics then: nothing is being transferred
2014-06-05 11:19 <larsc> or the mmc code doesn't know that anything was transfered
2014-06-05 11:20 <apelete> ah, didn't think about that possibility
2014-06-05 11:20 <larsc> I think you need to update data->bytes_xfered
2014-06-05 11:20 <larsc> after the DMA transfer finished
2014-06-05 11:25 <pcercuei> CMD18 is "write multiple", shouldn't its argument be something else than 0?
2014-06-05 11:30 <apelete> pcercuei: don't know, that's why I was asking how to read the output :)
2014-06-05 11:30 <apelete> where can I find the definition of each CMDXX ?
2014-06-05 11:31 <apelete> in mmc/sd specification maybe ?
2014-06-05 11:32 <pcercuei> yes
2014-06-05 11:32 <pcercuei> I used this doc when working on ubiboot: http://elm-chan.org/docs/mmc/mmc_e.html
2014-06-05 11:32 <apelete> larsc: just grepped the code to see how data->bytes_xfered is updated. I think I'll try: data->bytes_xfered = data->blocks * data->blksz;
2014-06-05 11:32 <pcercuei> mostly for debugging, since the low-level SD code was already written
2014-06-05 11:35 <apelete> pcercuei: very nice, thanks
2014-06-05 11:39 <apelete> damn, so much to learn... I wish I had more spare time lately, daytime job is killing it for me
2014-06-05 11:41 <ysionneau> :/
2014-06-05 11:41 <ysionneau> same for everybody I guess
2014-06-05 11:42 <ysionneau> unfortunately
2014-06-05 11:45 <nicksydney> http://thenewkingmakers.com/  The book about how developers took over the world
2014-06-05 11:49 <larsc> strangely enough I think I haven't yet ;)
2014-06-05 11:50 <ysionneau> because you don't work at Apple or Microsoft :)
2014-06-05 11:50 <larsc> or the NSA I guess
2014-06-05 11:51 <whitequark> "the book about delusional people living in San Francisco"
2014-06-05 11:52 <ysionneau> takings drugs and eating flowers
2014-06-05 11:52 <ysionneau> woops wrong time period
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2014-06-05 12:06 <nicksydney> wpwrak: MediaTek LinkIt is a development platform for Wearables and Internet of Things (IoT) http://www.mediatek.com/en/labs/
2014-06-05 12:34 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer05: (Neo900++) yes, there's also a nice evolution path: get rid of all the old nokia parts that will get increasingly impossible to source
2014-06-05 12:36 <wpwrak> whitequark: i think rootable is now being seen as a feature by more manufacturers. then just don't buy the ones who don't give you a clean way to root the box.
2014-06-05 12:39 <wpwrak> (latin) me too. part of "proper higher education" in the old days
2014-06-05 12:40 <larsc> 'hic forum est' all I remember
2014-06-05 12:40 <wpwrak> at least you learn useful expressions like "Agripina cacator est." (Agripina is a shitter. "piece of shit" or such)
2014-06-05 12:40 <ysionneau> homo homini lupus
2014-06-05 12:40 <ysionneau> and the usual alea jacta est
2014-06-05 12:42 <whitequark> wpwrak: not really, unfortunately, no.
2014-06-05 12:42 <whitequark> e.g. the Samsung phones, which constitute the majority of market (and are also the only vendor bringing in a modest profit), aren't rootable by design
2014-06-05 12:43 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: btw, I have disassembled the pump I bought previously
2014-06-05 12:43 <whitequark> it is amazing. it has ventilation (?!) holes right next to the leaking water chamber seal
2014-06-05 12:43 <whitequark> and there is a conveniently placed plastic gasket (?!), basically a ring with no obvious function except to guide water from leaking seal right inside the motor chamber
2014-06-05 12:44 <whitequark> it has no hydraulic function, because it's not tight enough to isolate anything, and it has no mechanical function, because it does not fix any parts in place
2014-06-05 12:44 <whitequark> WTF is with this design
2014-06-05 12:45 <wpwrak> made in china ? cargo cult meets reengineering meets massive mass production
2014-06-05 12:46 <wpwrak> you know, some say "form follows function", but then it's easy to confuse this with "function follows form". just make it look the same and it'll work ;-)
2014-06-05 12:46 <whitequark> made in russia
2014-06-05 12:47 <wpwrak> maybe chinese emigrants. the ones who weren't smart enough to make it at home :)
2014-06-05 12:49 <wpwrak> actually, i wonder how long we'll see those dodgy ripoffs. first, the market should adjust and catch them a bit earlier. second, the level of competence in china should be increasing massively.
2014-06-05 13:07 <sb0> "but a great writer of software code is worth 10,000 times the price of an average software writer"
2014-06-05 13:07 <sb0> HAHAHA
2014-06-05 13:07 <sb0> a writer of FASHIONABLE software code. that's a world of difference.
2014-06-05 13:07 <ysionneau> 09:27 < whitequark> see, technically, if *you* can root your phone, *any* app you download, some Candy Crush or similar shit, can establish a persistent threat < I so agree with that
2014-06-05 13:08 <ysionneau> being able to "root" the phone, from just an application is just a security issue
2014-06-05 13:08 <ysionneau> it means that any app can just do anything it wants : dump your sms/calendar/contacts and send it to the internet etc
2014-06-05 13:08 <ysionneau> root should only be achievable through reflashing the device
2014-06-05 13:09 <ysionneau> so indeed all bootloaders should allow you to reflash the device
2014-06-05 13:09 <ysionneau> too bad some don't :(
2014-06-05 13:09 <ysionneau> but I sooo don't like the fact that my Samsung Galaxy S3 is just a big security hole
2014-06-05 13:09 <sb0> and it's very disturbing that you can get almost 2x the LHC construction budget with a sexting app
2014-06-05 13:09 <ysionneau> same for OMAP3630 kernels
2014-06-05 13:10 <ysionneau> sb0: lol !
2014-06-05 13:10 <sb0> it would be nice if the writer of that piece of shit of a book realized that
2014-06-05 13:10 <ysionneau> that's the difference between business and research
2014-06-05 13:11 <ysionneau> most people don't care about research, they care about their own small, narrow minded life
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2014-06-05 13:11 <wpwrak> sb0: compare: how much sex do you get out of LHC ? then do the math which strategy is evolutionarily more successful :)
2014-06-05 13:11 <ysionneau> and you get money if you interest people, people are interested in sexting, not research
2014-06-05 13:11 <ysionneau> so money goes to sexting
2014-06-05 13:11 <wpwrak> ysionneau: and especially their genitals :)
2014-06-05 13:11 <whitequark> I would say that this is a problem with one particular capitalist circlejerk in California
2014-06-05 13:11 <sb0> me? I actually like dating physicists, so...
2014-06-05 13:12 <ysionneau> whitequark: sometimes funding is not in phase with actual public demand, but I guess that most of the time it is
2014-06-05 13:12 <ysionneau> people get what they ask for
2014-06-05 13:12 <ysionneau> they want idiotic applications on their phone to tap on candies while commuting? they get it
2014-06-05 13:12 <larsc> so the LHC is just a dating platform for scientists?
2014-06-05 13:12 <whitequark> ysionneau: the public doesn't get to say much
2014-06-05 13:13 <ysionneau> whitequark: why do the public use that?
2014-06-05 13:13 <whitequark> the author of the app sells it (and its users) to the venture capitalist
2014-06-05 13:13 <ysionneau> I see tons of people playing this stupidgame in the subway
2014-06-05 13:13 <wpwrak> sb0: i mean over the population that benefits from aforementioned investement. unless you turn into a modern day casanova, you stand no chance to beat all the sexters :)
2014-06-05 13:13 <whitequark> ysionneau: and it is that transaction which is absurdly inflated
2014-06-05 13:13 <wpwrak> larsc: now they have to kill you
2014-06-05 13:14 <ysionneau> whitequark: if the app is able to get revenues by ads because a lot of people use it, then it's "normal" it gets funding
2014-06-05 13:14 <ysionneau> people invest when they see something getting revenues
2014-06-05 13:14 <wpwrak> larsc: please have the courtesy to warn your office colleagues to stand clear of the particle beam that will arrive from the southwest in a few instants
2014-06-05 13:14 <whitequark> people invest when they see other people investing, mostly
2014-06-05 13:14 <ysionneau> what is sad, is that it gets any revenue at all
2014-06-05 13:14 <whitequark> it's a typical case of herd mentality
2014-06-05 13:14 <ysionneau> also there is this I guess
2014-06-05 13:14 <whitequark> and, uh
2014-06-05 13:14 <ysionneau> (this==what you say)
2014-06-05 13:14 <larsc> pcercuei: take cover ;)
2014-06-05 13:15 <whitequark> look at, say, twitter
2014-06-05 13:15 <whitequark> where is its revenue?
2014-06-05 13:15 <ysionneau> ads
2014-06-05 13:15 <whitequark> no, look at its financial data
2014-06-05 13:15 <ysionneau> and surely selling data about people
2014-06-05 13:15 <ysionneau> I'm not sure they earn that much money indeed
2014-06-05 13:15 <whitequark> where, exactly, are the bucketloads of money that it brings and which explain its valuation?
2014-06-05 13:15 <ysionneau> but I guess investor see "potential" in it
2014-06-05 13:15 <ysionneau> because of the large amount of people using it
2014-06-05 13:16 <whitequark> investors are as dumb as you or me
2014-06-05 13:16 <ysionneau> well, I see potential, when you get people to use your system
2014-06-05 13:16 <ysionneau> it's a matter of time you find some way of getting money with that
2014-06-05 13:16 <whitequark> for how long twitter exists already? almost a decade?
2014-06-05 13:17 <whitequark> do they have a viable business model? doesn't really look so
2014-06-05 13:17 <whitequark> there's hundreds of services with a promise "let's get more people on board, we'll figure how we get the money later"
2014-06-05 13:17 <whitequark> hundreds of services born each year, hundreds go to grave each year
2014-06-05 13:17 <ysionneau> first 6 months of 2013 they made $254m
2014-06-05 13:17 <wpwrak> if a biz is around for a decade, i daresay they have a viable model, no matter as how odd it may strike you ;-)
2014-06-05 13:18 <ysionneau> but they must have terrible costs, since in the end they lost $69m
2014-06-05 13:18 <whitequark> or think about facebook purchases
2014-06-05 13:18 <whitequark> when you see "facebook paid $16B", it doesn't mean facebook paid $16B of cash
2014-06-05 13:18 <whitequark> most of that is--indeed, facebook--stock
2014-06-05 13:18 <ysionneau> wpwrak: I think whitequark is saying that their business model is just to get funding from investor :p
2014-06-05 13:18 <ysionneau> with no real profit from anywhere else
2014-06-05 13:18 <whitequark> ysionneau: that's a good way to put it
2014-06-05 13:19 <ysionneau> and I guess for now it's true
2014-06-05 13:19 <wpwrak> ysionneau: seems to work just fine :)
2014-06-05 13:19 <whitequark> unsustainable in long term
2014-06-05 13:19 <ysionneau> so they are just screwing investors in  the end?
2014-06-05 13:19 <ysionneau> nice plan!
2014-06-05 13:20 <larsc> its a ponzi scheme
2014-06-05 13:20 <ysionneau> I hope government don't invest on that
2014-06-05 13:20 <whitequark> where do VCs get their money, how do you think?
2014-06-05 13:20 <wpwrak> a decade is a good start :) at what age do you plan to retire ? 1000 ? :)
2014-06-05 13:20 <whitequark> ysionneau: ofcourse it does, a good chunk of VC money comes from pension funds
2014-06-05 13:20 <whitequark> for example
2014-06-05 13:20 <ysionneau> whitequark: different sources, either banks, or insurances, or rich people
2014-06-05 13:20 <whitequark> yes, plenty of sources
2014-06-05 13:21 <ysionneau> but pension funds are not paid by the state right?
2014-06-05 13:21 <whitequark> also I dare you to look at the returns on VC capital for last decade or two
2014-06-05 13:21 <ysionneau> ah it's paid by working people
2014-06-05 13:21 <ysionneau> whitequark: they usually say "for 10 projects we invest on, 9 are failure and 1 is OK to compensate"
2014-06-05 13:21 <whitequark> in theory, they should be higher than average, otherwise, what's the point? in reality, they hover just above zero
2014-06-05 13:21 <ysionneau> dunno if it's right
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2014-06-05 13:22 <whitequark> well, that's the idea behind VC. but it's supposed to be better than average, in compound
2014-06-05 13:22 <whitequark> frankly I don't believe Facebook will survive, say, two decades. maybe not even one
2014-06-05 13:22 <whitequark> Apple and IBM will be around in 2100
2014-06-05 13:23 <ysionneau> so you say when facebook "buys" a company, they just sell their actions to buy the other company?
2014-06-05 13:23 <ysionneau> s/action/share/
2014-06-05 13:23 <qi-bot> ysionneau meant: "so you say when facebook "buys" a company, they just sell their shares to buy the other company?"
2014-06-05 13:23 <whitequark> ysionneau: to a high degree, yes
2014-06-05 13:24 <whitequark> there's usually some cash paid as well, and maybe other instruments
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2014-06-05 13:24 <whitequark> they don't *sell* their stock, they offer their stock in exchange of other company's stock
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2014-06-05 13:25 <whitequark> http://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthof/2014/02/19/in-one-chart-heres-why-facebook-is-blowing-19-billion-on-whatsapp/
2014-06-05 13:26 <pcercuei> < larsc> pcercuei: take cover ;)
2014-06-05 13:26 <pcercuei> hmm what?
2014-06-05 13:26 <pcercuei> sorry, I'm working
2014-06-05 13:27 <whitequark> "How will WhatsApp make money? Not ads, Koum said. (We’ll see.) Monetization won’t be a priority near-term and, in fact, the company won’t reveal how many of those 450 million users are paying $1 a year after the first year of free service. “We’re focused on the growth,” he said."
2014-06-05 13:27 <whitequark> doesn't this sound absurd?
2014-06-05 13:27 <whitequark> WhatsApp business model surely was selling their company to Facebook :)
2014-06-05 13:29 <ysionneau> ahah
2014-06-05 13:30 <ysionneau> indeed when you think about those things that's crazy
2014-06-05 13:31 <whitequark> one thing this whole contraption is surely excels at, so far, is making a few rich white guys even richer. everything else is doubtful at best
2014-06-05 13:34 <ysionneau> and it gives work to a looooooot of people
2014-06-05 13:34 <ysionneau> without making them rich
2014-06-05 13:35 <ysionneau> all the traders/accountant/investment company employes etc etc
2014-06-05 13:35 <ysionneau> lawyers etc
2014-06-05 13:40 <whitequark> ugh, insurance companies
2014-06-05 13:40 <whitequark> 16 pages of fine text, 42 sections
2014-06-05 13:40 <whitequark> (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
2014-06-05 13:42 <wpwrak> many a lawyer seems to "earn" a decent living ...
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2014-06-05 13:46 <larsc> I've just the right article for you http://www.salon.com/2014/06/01/help_us_thomas_piketty_the_1s_sick_and_twisted_new_scheme/
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2014-06-05 14:18 <wpwrak> hmmm, very long. at ~30% ...
2014-06-05 14:19 <wpwrak> one point that may be missing: more people, higher productivity = fewer good bottom-end jobs. so people *have* to move up, just to find some space
2014-06-05 14:20 <larsc> or you work less
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2014-06-05 14:46 <wpwrak> yes, but out model of distribution of resources is still work-based. so if you don't change that first, "working less" for most people simply means living in poverty.
2014-06-05 14:56 <wpwrak> good mouths_to_feed / work_done ratio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg#t=279
2014-06-05 14:57 <larsc> wpwrak: I think Sweden is reducing the work week to 4 days or something
2014-06-05 14:57 <larsc> at the same amount of pay
2014-06-05 14:57 <larsc> http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/04/sweden-the-new-laboratory-for-a-six-hour-work-day/360402/
2014-06-05 14:59 <pcercuei> time to learn swedish :)
2014-06-05 15:30 <whitequark> haha, http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2013/01/09/things_i_wont_work_with_azidoazide_azides_more_or_less.php
2014-06-05 15:31 <whitequark> and this: http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2013/08/28/mercury_azides_ill_get_right_on_those_for_you.php
2014-06-05 15:33 <whitequark>  Explosions are definitely underappreciated as a mixing technique, but in this case, they are keeping you from forming any larger crystals, a development which the paper says, with feeling, "should be avoided by all means".
2014-06-05 15:35 <whitequark> Footnote 18 hints that -- unbelievably -- they repeated the autoclave protocol more than once.
2014-06-05 15:35 <whitequark> Apparently any excess starting material will also crystalize, yielding large mercury (I) azide crystals. Helpfully, Footnote 18 cautions us that, quote, "the slightest provocation [of these crystals] ... will always lead to a violent detonation, thereby decomposing the whole batch."
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2014-06-05 15:44 <whitequark> http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2012/05/15/things_i_wont_work_with_selenophenol.php
2014-06-05 15:45 <whitequark> "it is frequently advisable to work with [selenium compounds] on alternate days", which I suppose is to give them time to work their way out of your nasal passages.
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2014-06-05 18:56 <DocScrutinizer05> lol
2014-06-05 19:02 <wpwrak> ah, he has a new entry. nice :)
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2014-06-05 19:18 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05:
2014-06-05 19:18 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: you should try mercury azides
2014-06-05 19:18 <DocScrutinizer05> what for?
2014-06-05 19:18 <DocScrutinizer05> I don't like mercury much
2014-06-05 19:19 <whitequark> but you do like explosions as a mixing technique or other unusual applications :)
2014-06-05 19:19 <DocScrutinizer05> and decomposition of the azide would dispense that crap nicely
2014-06-05 19:19 <DocScrutinizer05> I prefer copper azide for that
2014-06-05 19:19 <whitequark> could also try other heavy metals
2014-06-05 19:19 <whitequark> uranium azide?
2014-06-05 19:20 <DocScrutinizer05> or was it copper acetate?
2014-06-05 19:20 <DocScrutinizer05> copper  acetylite ;-P
2014-06-05 19:20 <whitequark> acetate doesn't explode
2014-06-05 19:20 <whitequark> hm
2014-06-05 19:20 <whitequark> acetylite... wouldn't that only generate acetylene in contact with water?
2014-06-05 19:21 <whitequark> or does it also detonate?
2014-06-05 19:21 <whitequark> oh it does, cool
2014-06-05 19:21 <DocScrutinizer05> copper salt plus acetylene is a known nogo in all labs
2014-06-05 19:21 <DocScrutinizer05> even for acetylene welding
2014-06-05 19:22 <DocScrutinizer05> on the brass armatures
2014-06-05 19:22 <sb0> DocScrutinizer05, know this?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosion_welding
2014-06-05 19:22 <DocScrutinizer05> yup
2014-06-05 19:22 <DocScrutinizer05> metal copaounds?
2014-06-05 19:22 <DocScrutinizer05> invented by NASA
2014-06-05 19:22 <sb0> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pr94Lk5a5k
2014-06-05 19:22 <DocScrutinizer05> two sheets of metal explosion-fused together?
2014-06-05 19:23 <DocScrutinizer05> like steel with alu
2014-06-05 19:23 <DocScrutinizer05> yup
2014-06-05 19:23 <DocScrutinizer05> know this
2014-06-05 19:24 <DocScrutinizer05> since ages actually
2014-06-05 19:25 <DocScrutinizer05> I actually even (accidentally) done it ;-)
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