2014-05-30 01:07 sb0 has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2014-05-30 01:38 to whom it may concern (whitequark? donors at large): please see http://neo900.org/#news "headline" ("Update") 2014-05-30 01:41 what is meant by "original and final invoice" ? 2014-05-30 02:01 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-30 02:21 original is what you received when donating, final is what you received in refund 2014-05-30 02:22 UG doesn't know what you got refunded 2014-05-30 02:22 so theoretically somebody could send 20EUR to UG and claim this is what GDC refunded for a 1000EUR original donation 2014-05-30 02:23 we want to handle all donations as if they were the original amount 2014-05-30 03:38 BerryHalsak has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-30 03:45 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-30 04:57 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-30 05:10 jekhor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-05-30 05:11 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-30 05:32 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 2014-05-30 06:09 rz2k has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-05-30 06:21 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-30 06:36 atommann has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-30 06:49 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-30 06:51 jluis has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-30 07:26 atommann has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-05-30 07:31 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-30 07:33 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-30 07:36 michael_lee has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 2014-05-30 07:40 atommann has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-30 08:12 another small WiFi module https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/asiarf-tiny-linux-computer-with-wifi-and-ethernet 2014-05-30 08:41 pcercuei_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-30 08:44 pcercuei has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2014-05-30 09:46 jluis has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-05-30 09:47 xiangfu_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-30 09:48 xiangfu_ has quit [Client Quit] 2014-05-30 09:48 xiangfu_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-30 09:50 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2014-05-30 09:56 xiangfu_ is now known as xiangfu 2014-05-30 10:01 BerryHalsak has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2014-05-30 10:01 jluis has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-30 10:22 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-05-30 10:25 pcercuei_ is now known as pcercuei 2014-05-30 10:33 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-30 10:42 atommann has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2014-05-30 11:11 kilae has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-30 11:12 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-05-30 11:18 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-30 11:59 jluis has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-05-30 12:40 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-05-30 12:49 fawk! i spent several hours trying to figure out why i get "undefined reference" from ld. It turns out that the order of objects to link does matter! 2014-05-30 12:50 just objects, or also libraries ? :) 2014-05-30 12:50 if you have cross-references, you can do that: 2014-05-30 12:50 gcc -Wl,--start-group foo.o bar.o -Wl,--end-group 2014-05-30 12:50 i have an archive and an object 2014-05-30 12:51 "ld archive object" doesn't work, "ld object archive" workd 2014-05-30 12:52 there is a flag that allows you to specify that the order does not matter 2014-05-30 12:53 but that makes things slower so it is off by default 2014-05-30 12:53 since typically your dependency graph is a DAG 2014-05-30 12:53 pcercuei: aren't mere objects always safe ? just libs have ordering constraints 2014-05-30 12:54 larsc: biting people who alpha-sort their files ... 2014-05-30 12:54 i think ld developers should enable "the order doesn't matter" flag when a dependency cannot be resolved 2014-05-30 12:55 and probably warn people 2014-05-30 12:55 naw, just print "kyak, you did it again !" 2014-05-30 12:56 i'm pretty sure i will do it again 2014-05-30 12:56 maybe in some time, when i forget 2014-05-30 13:03 interesting how the board has a sample code on the pcb http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/images/product/SRF%20shield.jpg :) 2014-05-30 13:18 in the old days, we printed listings on paper. now they print them on pcbs. what's next, stone tablets ? 2014-05-30 13:21 rz2k has quit [] 2014-05-30 13:40 atommann has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-30 13:56 atommann has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2014-05-30 14:44 some people have strange ideas. e.g., freescale put a low-power wakeup function on a pin that's normally not interrupt-capable. ah, the logic in those parallel universes ... 2014-05-30 15:01 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-30 15:59 rz2k has quit [] 2014-05-30 16:08 pcercuei has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-05-30 16:51 zear has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2014-05-30 17:03 zear has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-30 18:26 sometimes I think the people who assign functions to pins (and modules) are permanently high 2014-05-30 18:27 — *incomprehensible giggling* and this one would be a timer or USART RTS! — cool idea, bro *both giggle* 2014-05-30 18:28 nobody needs rts anyaway 2014-05-30 18:50 err huh? order matters on binding? 2014-05-30 18:50 only when you have colliding references, i.e. of same name, no? 2014-05-30 18:51 aiui that's the whole point of LD_PRELOAD 2014-05-30 18:53 DocScrutinizer05: there are some obscure corner cases where order matters when linking 2014-05-30 18:54 I wouldn't call them obscure or corner cases 2014-05-30 18:54 sorry that's beyond me 2014-05-30 18:54 the dependent object needs to be listed before the dependency 2014-05-30 18:55 ugh! 2014-05-30 18:56 larsc: hm, really? I bumped into it far too rare then 2014-05-30 18:56 (or the other way around) 2014-05-30 18:57 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/45135/linker-order-gcc/409470#409470 2014-05-30 18:57 recursuive and even circular dependcy resolving been a key feature of my first commercial project, done in pascal(!) which only allowed a limited (one digit) number of fixed file handles to get listed at compile time, no open() 2014-05-30 18:58 back in 1983 or sth 2014-05-30 18:58 ld is not exactly modern 2014-05-30 18:59 it was changed for performance reasons, iirc 2014-05-30 18:59 it doesn't matter if you compile your hello world 2014-05-30 19:00 nasty 2014-05-30 19:00 but for large programs like e.g. firefox it is supposed to make a difference 2014-05-30 19:00 llvm's linker, lld, works in a fascinating way 2014-05-30 19:00 although whether this should be default is indeed a bit questionable 2014-05-30 19:00 it doesn't care about object files at all. instead, it has a graph of atoms (atom = symbol + content) 2014-05-30 19:00 so, no need for ordering, or ridiculous hacks such as -ffunction-sections 2014-05-30 19:13 BerryHalsak has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-30 19:14 wait, did I get it right: ld knows how to resolve forward dependencies, but it's disabled by default for performance reasons? 2014-05-30 19:15 apparently 2014-05-30 19:15 :-S 2014-05-30 19:16 now that's what I call design of a lazy uninspired coder 2014-05-30 19:17 wtf blocks ld to switch to a more smart way to resolve deps as soon as it runs into trouble with optimized method? 2014-05-30 19:18 also I can't recall even seen a switch/option for that in ld's man page. Then otoh that manpage is a nighmare, right? 2014-05-30 19:20 only 1344, not as bad as I thought 2014-05-30 19:22 the switch is '-( ... )-' 2014-05-30 19:22 1344? 2014-05-30 19:23 lines 2014-05-30 19:24 but also not really self-explanatory 2014-05-30 19:24 to understand what all the options *really* do you need ten times that anount of doc, at least 2014-05-30 19:28 man ld|less -j2 +'/sort' ; sounds kinda related. But maybe not at all 2014-05-30 19:38 larsc: '-( archives -)' ? 2014-05-30 19:39 yup, manpage explanation sounds about right 2014-05-30 19:40 >>Using this option has a significant performance cost. It is best to use it only when there are unavoidable circular references between two or more archives.<< LOL 2014-05-30 19:40 *circular* dependencies 2014-05-30 19:40 that's why I almost never had to use it 2014-05-30 19:41 read the whole helptext, it suggests that usually you have an ordered list of archive files 2014-05-30 19:42 and ld only switches to repeated circular search through all archives when -( -) is used 2014-05-30 19:42 the most common cast where it hits people is when they put libraries before object files 2014-05-30 19:43 the rest (dependencies between libraries and such) is less common 2014-05-30 19:45 man ld|less -j2 +'2/--start-group' 2014-05-30 19:50 well, you have two types of problem situations: getting the DAG wrong or having a cyclic graph (DCG). in the former case you have to reorder the libraries. in the latter case you have to repeat some of them. 2014-05-30 19:51 --start-group is basically a work-around. can make sense in cases where you can't quite predict what the libraries will do, though 2014-05-30 19:53 or in cases where you have a shitload of back&forth references 2014-05-30 19:54 but honestly, I'd expect a linker to take care of that without me helping it out of valley of ignorance 2014-05-30 19:54 BerryHalsak has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 2014-05-30 19:54 yeah, it does seem a little odd. not sure how much more effort it would be 2014-05-30 19:54 some heuristics could help a lot 2014-05-30 19:55 actually, the best would be to print a warning of it finds a DAG problem. then one could simply reorder the libs. 2014-05-30 19:56 the best would be a warning and rescan of all archives like in -(-) 2014-05-30 19:57 yes, that's what i meant 2014-05-30 19:57 then keep in minf which archive been able to satisfy the "stale" reference, and search this archive first next time a stale reference happens 2014-05-30 19:58 but then, a fatal error can be seen as a warning you can't ignore ;-) 2014-05-30 19:58 kinda, but silly 2014-05-30 19:58 mafia-style programming ;-) 2014-05-30 19:59 "sorry, I detected a problem and I can tell you which one, but my coder been too lazy to teach me how to solve it. HEEEELP!" 2014-05-30 20:00 even s/(which one)/\1 and what's the supposed solution/ 2014-05-30 20:01 well, it's not a big deal. once you understand it, it's easy enough to solve such problems when you run into them 2014-05-30 20:01 yes, but it's terribly annoying 2014-05-30 20:04 it's basically like an arbitrary cmdline tool throwing error "-x not allowed after -y, please use -x -y instead of -y -x!" 2014-05-30 20:08 i'd suggest you inform the UN security council. you've convinced me, something really has to be done about it ;-) 2014-05-30 20:08 DocScrutinizer05: you mean like find? :D 2014-05-30 20:09 $ find -name foo / 2014-05-30 20:09 find: paths must precede expression: / 2014-05-30 20:12 Usage: find [-H] [-L] [-P] [-Olevel] [-D help|tree|search|stat|rates|opt|exec] [path...] [expression] 2014-05-30 20:12 so W*T*F? 2014-05-30 20:13 aah, sorry 2014-05-30 20:13 well what the fuck is its problem? author too lazy to sort the arguments? 2014-05-30 20:13 short of coffee 2014-05-30 20:13 yeah, obviously 2014-05-30 20:16 you could argue it can't decide otherwise if it's a path starting with '-' or a misspelled EXPR 2014-05-30 20:16 $ find -/ -name foo 2014-05-30 20:16 find: unknown predicate `-/' 2014-05-30 20:16 no. 2014-05-30 20:17 but actually paths starting with - are cumbersome no matter what 2014-05-30 20:17 all sane utilities use -- for separating args and paths 2014-05-30 20:17 right 2014-05-30 20:17 but nooo, find just *has* to invent some ridiculous shit, and in fact -- can't work at all with it 2014-05-30 20:17 or any other prper delimiter 2014-05-30 20:17 because that'd put predicates before paths 2014-05-30 20:18 :nod: 2014-05-30 20:18 I guess find is quite ancient a tool 2014-05-30 20:19 not everything made sense back when. Heck not even today everything makes sense 2014-05-30 20:19 that's some profound observation 2014-05-30 20:20 I guess find's syntax is closely related to the natural language and therefore the logic of the original author 2014-05-30 20:20 kyak_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-30 20:20 kyak_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-30 20:20 wolfspra1l has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-30 20:21 wolfspraul has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 2014-05-30 20:21 wpwrak has quit [Excess Flood] 2014-05-30 20:21 kyak has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-05-30 20:21 dandon_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-30 20:21 wpwrak has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-30 20:23 sb0 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-30 20:26 dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-05-30 20:26 dandon_ is now known as dandon 2014-05-30 20:40 *cough* 2014-05-30 20:43 think of dd 2014-05-30 20:44 would be some fun to guess which tools are written by same (group of) author(s), only judging by the syntax and option names used 2014-05-30 21:31 well, these groups of original authors may indeed be rather small ;-) 2014-05-30 22:05 sb0 has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2014-05-30 22:25 FDCX has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-30 22:46 kilae has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 29.0.1/20140506152807]] 2014-05-30 22:57 wolfspra1l has quit [Quit: leaving]