2014-05-22 00:04 <DocScrutinizer05> nah, we're a fast crew :-D
2014-05-22 01:08 <DocScrutinizer05> damn fast
2014-05-22 01:08 <DocScrutinizer05> ;-)
2014-05-22 01:36 <nicksydney> wpwrak: will be working with the 6 layers Neo900 schematics ? :)
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2014-05-22 02:23 <DocScrutinizer05> LOL  http://wstaw.org/m/2014/05/22/plasma-desktopm26588.png
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2014-05-22 02:31 <DocScrutinizer05> nicksydney: the schematics are 2D some 30 sheets. They layout is one 4-layer and one 8-layer PCB
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2014-05-22 02:31 <DocScrutinizer05> -y
2014-05-22 02:33 <nicksydney> DocScrutinizer05: the diagram looks like a frequency of something no idea what it is .. but keen to know :)
2014-05-22 02:33 <DocScrutinizer05> my home automation
2014-05-22 02:33 <nicksydney> the value in dBm ? isn't that decible ... frequency ?
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2014-05-22 02:34 <DocScrutinizer05> http://wstaw.org/m/2014/05/22/plasma-desktopn26588.png
2014-05-22 02:35 <DocScrutinizer05> dBm is signal strength, Relative Strength of SIgnal
2014-05-22 02:35 <DocScrutinizer05> or Received ?
2014-05-22 02:36 <DocScrutinizer05> deciBel(milliWatt)
2014-05-22 02:36 <nicksydney> so basically it's the signal strength of each point in your home automation?
2014-05-22 02:36 <DocScrutinizer05> yep
2014-05-22 02:36 <nicksydney> is it like a wifi access point ?
2014-05-22 02:37 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm, the central control unit CCU might be
2014-05-22 02:37 <DocScrutinizer05> it's the thing with most connections
2014-05-22 02:38 <DocScrutinizer05> HomeMatic
2014-05-22 02:38 <nicksydney> how you were able to measure the signal strenght from each point that is really interesting
2014-05-22 02:38 <DocScrutinizer05> http://www.eq-3.de/homematic.html
2014-05-22 02:39 <DocScrutinizer05> the devices do that
2014-05-22 02:39 <DocScrutinizer05> and tell it to CCU1
2014-05-22 02:39 <nicksydney> ahhh ok gotcha...now i get it .. thanks
2014-05-22 02:39 <DocScrutinizer05> and CCU1 displays http://wstaw.org/m/2014/05/22/plasma-desktopn26588.png
2014-05-22 02:40 <DocScrutinizer05> and http://wstaw.org/m/2014/05/22/plasma-desktopm26588.png when you click that button on bottom
2014-05-22 02:40 <DocScrutinizer05> "Create RSSI graph online"
2014-05-22 02:41 <nicksydney> signal is considered good when the dB value is minus higher or lower ?
2014-05-22 02:41 <DocScrutinizer05> -99dBm is limit
2014-05-22 02:41 <DocScrutinizer05> I guess
2014-05-22 02:41 <DocScrutinizer05> though for those crappy little receivers, prolly -84dBm
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2014-05-22 02:42 <DocScrutinizer05> a cellpgone has some +26dBm output power
2014-05-22 02:42 <DocScrutinizer05> cellphone
2014-05-22 02:42 <DocScrutinizer05> 0dBm is prolly 1mWatt
2014-05-22 02:42 <nicksydney> in your case all the values are (-) does this mean that -72dBm is less strength than -2dBm ?
2014-05-22 02:43 <DocScrutinizer05> sure
2014-05-22 02:43 <DocScrutinizer05> and I wonder why soooo many are -72dBm. Looks like a glitch somewhere
2014-05-22 02:44 <nicksydney> hehe...that was exactly i was going to asked you there are more than 3-4 deviecs that read that value (-72)
2014-05-22 02:44 <nicksydney> so why is it so weak
2014-05-22 02:44 <nicksydney> maybe block or interference ?
2014-05-22 02:44 <DocScrutinizer05> even some that are only 3m away from CCU. While e.g. "Aussen" (thermo sensor garden) is -42dBm
2014-05-22 02:45 <DocScrutinizer05> I think the -72 is somehow bogus
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2014-05-22 02:54 <DocScrutinizer05> also there's a bit on nonsense in the whole thing, since all communications are bidir, and the table (http://wstaw.org/m/2014/05/22/plasma-desktopn26588.png) states always same RSSI for A->B and B->A
2014-05-22 02:54 <DocScrutinizer05> which doesn't really make sense
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2014-05-22 05:27 <nicksydney> VoCore: A coin-sized Linux computer with wifi - https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/vocore-a-coin-sized-linux-computer-with-wifi
2014-05-22 05:27 <nicksydney> MIPS chip :)
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2014-05-22 05:50 <nicksydney> interesting how the project was outlined https://images.indiegogo.com/file_attachments/591869/files/20140520072256-vocore.timeline.jpg?1400595776
2014-05-22 05:53 <nicksydney> http://vonger.cn/?p=6 --> "This month I spend all my free time on a cheap router chip named RT5350F. It is only 9RMB(1.5USD)." ... the chip is frickin' cheap !
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2014-05-22 06:48 <DocScrutinizer05> VoCore is kinda nice
2014-05-22 06:49 <whitequark> ... except for the fact that we will have a lot more of insecure Linux machines which are never updated after deployment and are a perfect target for persistent threats
2014-05-22 06:49 <whitequark> it's not strictly their fault, but it's still a huge problem
2014-05-22 06:49 <nicksydney> camea cross another Taiwan based company that produces GPS chip http://www.skytraq.com.tw/ ... it is also being used in https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11058 and here http://navspark.mybigcommerce.com/navspark-gl-arduino-compatible-development-board-with-gps-glonass/
2014-05-22 06:50 <nicksydney> schematic https://store-lgdi92x.mybigcommerce.com/content/NavSparkGL-2.pdf
2014-05-22 06:55 <nicksydney> sorry wrong this one http://www.simteek.com/en/index.php/products/can5125m
2014-05-22 06:55 <nicksydney> CAN5125M - GNSS Dual-mode dual-channel RF SoC
2014-05-22 06:56 <nicksydney> wonder why this board http://navspark.mybigcommerce.com/development-boards/ is using 2 kind of GPS chip
2014-05-22 07:01 <kyak> 2 square inch computer is impossible to loose :)
2014-05-22 07:05 <kyak> https://www.fsf.org/news/tehnoetic-wireless-usb-adapter-now-fsf-certified-to-respect-your-freedom
2014-05-22 07:07 <kyak> pretty interesting.. they claim that Atheros AR9271 requries no blob in linux kernel
2014-05-22 07:07 <kyak> i didn't know such chips exist
2014-05-22 07:08 <kyak> https://github.com/qca/open-ath9k-htc-firmware
2014-05-22 07:08 <kyak> how amazing is that?
2014-05-22 07:11 <nicksydney> so the full driver source is available for the AR9271 ?
2014-05-22 07:14 <kyak> it seems so, yes
2014-05-22 07:14 <kyak> both the firmware and the software driver
2014-05-22 07:15 <nicksydney> seems like the IC is not sold to the public..most of the search comes out the chip insied a product
2014-05-22 07:17 <kyak> are you interested in the chip itself?
2014-05-22 07:17 <nicksydney> just collecting info for now :)
2014-05-22 07:19 <kyak> well, if it's not at digikey, i don't know where it is :)
2014-05-22 07:19 <kyak> probably the manufacturers buy from atheros directly
2014-05-22 07:23 <nicksydney> or something like this http://skylab.en.alibaba.com/product/1877500197-214245023/Skylab_Microchip_WIFI_Module_WG211_MT7610U_WIFI_Module_Supports_433Mbps_PHY_rate.html
2014-05-22 07:33 <DocScrutinizer05> firmware? in hex or what?
2014-05-22 07:33 <DocScrutinizer05> or do they use ARM mnemonics?
2014-05-22 07:34 <DocScrutinizer05> or does it come with embedded manual for the instruction set of the embedded CPU?
2014-05-22 07:35 <DocScrutinizer05> wait, prolly it's c, so they will ship a gcc-extension for that CPU ISA, right?
2014-05-22 07:35 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: it uses something ancient like hitachi h8300 iirc
2014-05-22 07:36 <DocScrutinizer05> mhm
2014-05-22 07:36 <whitequark> also yeah, it's in C
2014-05-22 07:37 <whitequark> hm, not h8300. xtensa
2014-05-22 07:37 <whitequark> nfc what that is, first time I ever hear that name
2014-05-22 07:37 <whitequark> oh, it's a custom synthesizable core
2014-05-22 07:38 <DocScrutinizer05> toldya
2014-05-22 07:38 <whitequark> oooooh I realized
2014-05-22 07:38 <whitequark> whoa, they open-sourced the ath*9*k firmware
2014-05-22 07:38 <whitequark> I thought it was about ancient ath*5*k firmware
2014-05-22 07:39 <DocScrutinizer05> I still wonder which compiler to use
2014-05-22 07:39 <DocScrutinizer05> resp which ISA
2014-05-22 07:39 <whitequark> they ship it with a gcc patch
2014-05-22 07:39 <DocScrutinizer05> LOL
2014-05-22 07:40 <DocScrutinizer05> ok, fair enough, free firmware obviously *is* possible
2014-05-22 07:40 <whitequark> and by the most unlikely vendor ever, qualcomm
2014-05-22 07:41 <whitequark> I mean, atheros was always FOSS-friendly, but I was quite certain that'll end with qcom acquisition
2014-05-22 07:41 <whitequark> apparently not
2014-05-22 07:41 <DocScrutinizer05> sure? isn't that HTC?
2014-05-22 07:41 <whitequark> hm? qcom and htc are different companies
2014-05-22 07:41 <DocScrutinizer05> exactly
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2014-05-22 07:42 <DocScrutinizer05> open-ath9k-htc-firmware
2014-05-22 07:42 <whitequark> oh
2014-05-22 07:42 <whitequark> note this: The Qualcomm Atheros owned code is under the ClearBSD licence.
2014-05-22 07:42 <DocScrutinizer05> ooh
2014-05-22 07:43 <whitequark> I quite doubt that HTC would rewrite the firmware solely to release it as FOSS
2014-05-22 07:43 <DocScrutinizer05> I guess chinese gvmt kicked their arse
2014-05-22 07:44 <DocScrutinizer05> I could figure HTC was interested in a deal including selling 1.2 billion devices to the chinese
2014-05-22 07:44 <DocScrutinizer05> but for that they needed to open up the complete soft/firmware
2014-05-22 07:44 <whitequark> that sounds an odd requirement
2014-05-22 07:44 <DocScrutinizer05> it isn't
2014-05-22 07:45 <DocScrutinizer05> China baught german transrapid, but only with knowhow to build them on their own
2014-05-22 07:46 <DocScrutinizer05> it's quite usual. Chinese gvmt is tough in that regard
2014-05-22 07:46 <DocScrutinizer05> china been first with requirement for USB charging
2014-05-22 07:46 <whitequark> fascinating
2014-05-22 07:59 <DocScrutinizer05> iirc they also created "their own" linux distro since they didn't want windows on laptops
2014-05-22 08:00 <DocScrutinizer05> with 1200 million potential customers you may start negotiations about stuff that's impossible elsewhere
2014-05-22 08:04 <DocScrutinizer05> and when HTC asks for 1200 million ath9k chips, they can negotiate whatever they want with qualcom
2014-05-22 08:04 <DocScrutinizer05> bot of course that's all wild guessing, based on 3 letters in a filename
2014-05-22 08:04 <DocScrutinizer05> but*
2014-05-22 08:06 <DocScrutinizer05> when they say "it must be freeBSD" then qualcom will ask how to indent the code
2014-05-22 08:10 <DocScrutinizer05> for the chipmakers it's all just a question of ROI
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2014-05-22 08:11 <DocScrutinizer05> what sells chips, what sells most chips, what sells chips *now*
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2014-05-22 08:13 <DocScrutinizer05> hire 200 hackers for 3 months to rewrite that crap FOSS compliant? so what?
2014-05-22 08:13 <whitequark> makes sense
2014-05-22 08:13 <DocScrutinizer05> when it sells 1 billion chips
2014-05-22 08:15 <DocScrutinizer05> they would literally kill for less
2014-05-22 08:16 <DocScrutinizer05> it's not like chip makers hate FOSS per se, they just don't like the money it costs them
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2014-05-22 08:17 <DocScrutinizer05> publish a datasheet --> hire a lawyer for two years to manage it
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2014-05-22 08:18 <DocScrutinizer05> simple as that
2014-05-22 08:20 <DocScrutinizer05> cinterion recently discontinued their datasheet policy (register, receive download link)
2014-05-22 08:20 <DocScrutinizer05> :-(
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2014-05-22 08:22 <DocScrutinizer05> they seem to "outsource" this, luckily there are sites like http://download.maritex.com.pl/
2014-05-22 08:23 <DocScrutinizer05> http://download.maritex.com.pl/pdfs/wi/phs8.pdf
2014-05-22 08:25 <DocScrutinizer05> http://www.wirelessmodules.cz/?lngid=ENG
2014-05-22 08:25 <DocScrutinizer05> and http://www.seapraha.cz/download/ \o/
2014-05-22 08:27 <DocScrutinizer05> YEEHAAA! http://www.seapraha.cz/download/pls8-e_atc_v01000_tcm216-155309.pdf
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2014-05-22 09:07 * whitequark laughs
2014-05-22 09:07 <whitequark> http://fontforge.github.io/en-US/downloads/
2014-05-22 09:08 <whitequark> $ apt-get install fontforge works... and doesn't ask $240
2014-05-22 09:11 <larsc> but you don't get the latest and greatest version
2014-05-22 09:12 <whitequark> I've actually ran that
2014-05-22 09:12 <whitequark> by comparison, Tcl/Tk looks astoundingly modern
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2014-05-22 10:26 <dos1> http://neo900.org/news-0011-progress-update-may
2014-05-22 10:28 <whitequark> wohoo, wpwrak, welcome on board :)
2014-05-22 10:30 <nicksydney> wpwrak: congrats! mate ... Werner the Gerber :)
2014-05-22 10:30 <nicksydney> heheheh
2014-05-22 10:36 <nicksydney> Replicant running w/o hardware acceleration is pretty good i should say considering it's 512MBon GTA04
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2014-05-22 10:44 <nicksydney> wpwrak: man!  your name is everywhere http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openmoko :)
2014-05-22 10:45 <whitequark> try $ pstree --version
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2014-05-22 10:46 <nicksydney> YIKES !
2014-05-22 10:46 <nicksydney> it's like he is haunting me now
2014-05-22 10:47 <nicksydney> hehhehe
2014-05-22 10:47 <nicksydney> pstree (PSmisc) 22.19
2014-05-22 10:47 <nicksydney> Copyright (C) 1993-2009 Werner Almesberger and Craig Small
2014-05-22 10:47 <nicksydney> now this is interesting https://www.google.com.au/search?q=Werner+Almesberger&client=ubuntu&hs=bvm&channel=fs&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=w9V9U4bgMsTs8AXrmYL4CA&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAg&biw=1507&bih=896
2014-05-22 10:48 <nicksydney> this must be when he was 19yrs old http://marc.merlins.org/linux/linuxexpo99/Day3/Bofs/PDAs/101_almesberger.jpg :)
2014-05-22 10:49 <nicksydney> and this must be after 10 yrs from that picture taken http://www.flickr.com/photos/fisl13/7661788726/in/photostream/
2014-05-22 10:51 <eintopf> 1993 :O
2014-05-22 10:52 <eintopf> I have 5 years old there
2014-05-22 10:52 <eintopf> was*
2014-05-22 11:00 <nicksydney> if anyone bought this kind of bluetooth http://www.suntekstore.com/goods-14001625-wireless_bluetooth_transceiver_module_ttl.html here is the datasheet for it http://www.egochina.net.cn/e-shop/ebay/datasheet/Bluetooth_Module_L6.rar
2014-05-22 11:02 <nicksydney> or from that website too http://iw.suntekstore.com/attach.php?id=14001625&img=14001625-DE-2.jpg
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2014-05-22 16:20 <wpwrak> hmm, sometimes, "the competition" seems to be going out of its way to make it easy for you: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/myidkey/myidkey-passwords-at-the-tip-of-your-finger/comments
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2014-05-22 23:08 <nicksydney> i sometimes don't understand why people want to work and have career in Google ? if the reason is because to work with bright minds ...a lot of open source engineer are damn bright !....but if they are after the money than it's different story
2014-05-22 23:09 <wpwrak> maybe it's the combination ?
2014-05-22 23:09 <wpwrak> also, google have the resources to actually make things happen
2014-05-22 23:10 <Lumocolor> recommendation for free drivers/firmware usb bluetooth 3.0+ dongel?
2014-05-22 23:12 <wpwrak> BT 4 ... the broadcom BCM20702A0 seems to have good support
2014-05-22 23:13 <wpwrak> well, just BCM20702 is enough
2014-05-22 23:14 <Lumocolor> bt4 even better
2014-05-22 23:14 <wpwrak> definitely, because bt 4 gives you btle
2014-05-22 23:15 <Lumocolor> it's for my mini bt keyboard + touchpad combo
2014-05-22 23:16 <Lumocolor> so I need bt3 min because I don't think it's been cracked... right?
2014-05-22 23:16 <wpwrak> i have a dongle with that chipset and it talks regular BT out of the box with ubuntu. (i got a little BT keyboard for testing) didn't even have to download firmware or such.
2014-05-22 23:16 <Lumocolor> shame it's a evil broadcom one sigh
2014-05-22 23:17 <wpwrak> dunno. the experts on poking holes into BT hang out of #ubertooth
2014-05-22 23:17 <Lumocolor> arrr thanks
2014-05-22 23:17 <wpwrak> at least it's not made my monsanto ;-)
2014-05-22 23:18 <Lumocolor> hehe but broadcom SOCs are as bad as monsanto :O
2014-05-22 23:18 <wpwrak> given how much the rpi spreads, you could almost say that :)
2014-05-22 23:19 <Lumocolor> lol
2014-05-22 23:23 <Lumocolor> just remembered http://h-node.org/bluetooth/catalogue/en/1/1/undef/2013/yes/USB/undef/undef
2014-05-22 23:25 <wpwrak> a very limited list
2014-05-22 23:26 <Lumocolor> also look at 2012,2011
2014-05-22 23:26 <Lumocolor> can't filter by bt version, so I filtered by year, yours is mentioned
2014-05-22 23:27 <wpwrak> i searched for  BCM20702. there's a lot more dongles with that chip out there
2014-05-22 23:27 <Lumocolor> I only need one
2014-05-22 23:27 <wpwrak> that database shows just one and that's probably something integrated in the laptop
2014-05-22 23:28 <Lumocolor> hmm
2014-05-22 23:31 <Lumocolor> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/ORICO-BTA-402-USB-2-0-Micro-Mini-Bluetooth-4-0-Dongle-Mini-Bluetooth-Dongle-Adapter/880054695.html
2014-05-22 23:33 <wpwrak> that one has a CSR chipset. dunno if that's okay with linux.
2014-05-22 23:33 <wpwrak> this one is known to work: http://www.amazon.com/Kinivo-BTD-400-Bluetooth-4-0-adapter/dp/B007Q45EF4
2014-05-22 23:34 <Lumocolor> http://h-node.org/bluetooth/view/en/167/Cambridge-Silicon-Radio-Ltd-Bluetooth-Dongle--HCI-mode-/1/1/undef/2013/yes/USB/undef/undef
2014-05-22 23:35 <wpwrak> here's another one with the broadcom chip: http://www.amazon.com/IOGEAR-Bluetooth-Micro-Adapter-GBU521/dp/B007GFX0PY
2014-05-22 23:35 <Lumocolor> bouns is it dosen't look like a boardcom one hehehe :)
2014-05-22 23:35 <wpwrak> kewl :)
2014-05-22 23:35 <Lumocolor> I wonder what the signal is like on these tiny things
2014-05-22 23:37 <Lumocolor> don't they need a 4cm antenna for err full range?
2014-05-22 23:46 pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo]
2014-05-22 23:48 <wpwrak> maybe. but then, these centimeters don't have to be in a straight line
2014-05-22 23:48 <wpwrak> see atben/atusb: there, the antenna is folded
2014-05-22 23:49 <wpwrak> and then you have chip antennas that are even more compact
2014-05-22 23:52 <DocScrutinizer05> 1/4 lambda, 5/8 lambda, 1/2 lambda diploles, there's a lot of stuff, it's not about a certain length of wire
2014-05-22 23:54 <DocScrutinizer05> and then an antenna basically *always* is a dipole - something most people like to ignore or not even understand
2014-05-22 23:54 <wpwrak> do you know how chip antennas manage to be so small ? is it mainly the dielectric or some clever folding ?
2014-05-22 23:54 <wpwrak> well, the meandering antennas hide their dipolity rather well ;-)
2014-05-22 23:54 <DocScrutinizer05> well, you can make an antenna out of everything, as long as the tuning is ok. Gain however is another question
2014-05-22 23:54 <wpwrak> takes a bit of explaining to make people understand that they're still basically the same
2014-05-22 23:55 <DocScrutinizer05> I don't think those chip antennas have a particularly good gain
2014-05-22 23:55 <wpwrak> and then you have even weirder forms, slot antennas etc. i don't even pretend how all those critters really work :)
2014-05-22 23:55 <DocScrutinizer05> RF is voodoo
2014-05-22 23:55 <wpwrak> some of the chips look reasonably decent. not all, though.
2014-05-22 23:56 <wpwrak> indeed
2014-05-22 23:56 <DocScrutinizer05> did you happen to run into the book about antenna design I bought in that awesome bookstore in TPE and left in OM office? it had some 1300 pages
2014-05-22 23:56 <DocScrutinizer05> just about antennas
2014-05-22 23:57 <wpwrak> no, never saw that one
2014-05-22 23:57 <DocScrutinizer05> (was too heavy to take it with me to D)
2014-05-22 23:57 <wpwrak> i miss that bookshop, too
2014-05-22 23:58 <wpwrak> and "too heavy" is a poor excuse :)