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2014-05-20 11:36 <nicksydney> very quiet !
2014-05-20 11:36 <nicksydney> not even a soul showing
2014-05-20 11:36 <nicksydney> wonder what people are doing
2014-05-20 11:36 <nicksydney> ping !
2014-05-20 11:38 <wpwrak> indeed, eerily quiet
2014-05-20 11:38 <larsc> haven't you heard?
2014-05-20 11:38 <nicksydney> what haven't i heard ? someone open sourced Mali ? :)
2014-05-20 11:46 <larsc> this channel is bugged
2014-05-20 11:46 <larsc> you have to type very quiet
2014-05-20 11:48 <nicksydney> shhhhh....no noise...just tip toe-ing
2014-05-20 11:48 <wpwrak> nsalogger is everywhere
2014-05-20 11:48 <nicksydney> googling AT91SAM7 on the image section comes out with LOTS of schematic interesting
2014-05-20 11:48 <nicksydney> seems like it's a very widely used IC
2014-05-20 11:49 <wpwrak> perhaps a bit more obso than leet these days ?
2014-05-20 11:50 <nicksydney> but seems very powerful than what are available eh ?
2014-05-20 11:51 <nicksydney> compared to arduino or m0 or m3 or m4
2014-05-20 11:56 <wpwrak> powerful ? compared to m4 ?
2014-05-20 11:57 <wpwrak> even a lowly f3 should run circles around it
2014-05-20 11:57 <nicksydney> how come ? in what way ? thought it the AT91SAM7 is 32 bit and have more power ?
2014-05-20 12:00 <CYB3R_ng> As far as i can remember AT91SAM7 is very old ARM
2014-05-20 12:02 <nicksydney> so in terms of code execution (in layman terms) it is slow compared to the new architecture ?
2014-05-20 12:02 <ysionneau> because it's an old ARM7 core
2014-05-20 12:02 <wpwrak> m0/m3/m4 ... are 32 bit as well :)
2014-05-20 12:02 <ysionneau> (ARM7TDMI)
2014-05-20 12:03 <ysionneau> using armv3 instruction set
2014-05-20 12:04 <wpwrak> it should win the competition against an arduino, though. i mean, what doesn't ? even an abacus should beat it
2014-05-20 12:04 <nicksydney> "using armv3 instruction set"....ahhh i've read somewhere if not mistaken the new architecture like Cortex-A5,A8,A9 uses armv7
2014-05-20 12:04 <nicksydney> "even an abacus should beat it" .... now now....:)
2014-05-20 12:06 <ysionneau> nicksydney: the thing is not to mix up arm instruction set and the arm core numbering
2014-05-20 12:06 <nicksydney> now this is something that all of us can do with all the PCBs we have lying around http://www.seeedstudio.com/blog/2014/05/20/pcb-death-rebirth/ :)
2014-05-20 12:06 <ysionneau> ARM7 != armv7
2014-05-20 12:06 <ysionneau> ARM7 is armv3 and it's quite old
2014-05-20 12:06 <nicksydney> ysionneau: oh ok
2014-05-20 12:07 <pcercuei> armv4*
2014-05-20 12:07 <ysionneau> Cortex A/R/M are armv7(A/R/M)
2014-05-20 12:07 <ysionneau> which is much recent
2014-05-20 12:08 <wpwrak> also just in terms of clock speed. a mean, even the rather bottom-end M0+ i use does 48 MHz. e.g., STM32F3 (M3) would be 120 MHz, F4 160 MHz (or maybe a few more, don't remember)
2014-05-20 12:08 <ysionneau> (except Cortex-A5x which are armv8a 64bits)
2014-05-20 12:08 <wpwrak> #s/a mean/i mean/
2014-05-20 12:09 <ysionneau> ah sorry ARM7 is armv3 but the AT91SAM7 is using ARM7TDMI which is armv4T
2014-05-20 12:09 <ysionneau> but still it's old and the clock is something like 70 MHz max
2014-05-20 12:10 <nicksydney> interesting
2014-05-20 12:11 <nicksydney> the price of Cortex-A5 is expensive compared to A8/A9
2014-05-20 12:12 <nicksydney> where A8/A9 is more powerful than A5 no ?
2014-05-20 12:29 <ysionneau> yes
2014-05-20 12:30 <ysionneau> but A5 is "low power"
2014-05-20 12:30 <ysionneau> and I guess it takes less die surface
2014-05-20 12:31 <nicksydney> supposedly they came out with A5 for low power devices compared to A8/A9
2014-05-20 12:31 <ysionneau> it's the new "low power application processor armv7" for low end "smart phone"
2014-05-20 12:31 <ysionneau> they will try to reach the $25 boundary for smart phones with that
2014-05-20 12:32 <pcercuei> I'd love a MIPS chip with those specs
2014-05-20 12:38 <ysionneau> MIPS is trying to come in the Android / smartphone run as well
2014-05-20 12:38 <ysionneau> they have a port of Android
2014-05-20 12:38 <ysionneau> I think there are a few android devices under MIPS
2014-05-20 12:39 <ysionneau> MIPS Warrior series 5 CPUs I think
2014-05-20 12:46 <CYB3R_ng> Most of Android based smart-watch use JZ4775, Xburst MIPS
2014-05-20 12:46 <ysionneau> ah ok I didn't know that Android was already running on old MIPS cores
2014-05-20 12:47 <CYB3R_ng> ingenic provided android images for all of it's recent socs
2014-05-20 12:47 <nicksydney> ysionneau: yes few Android based MIPS phones has been released
2014-05-20 12:48 <CYB3R_ng> and few tablets as well
2014-05-20 12:48 <ysionneau> nicksydney: do you have the phone names ?
2014-05-20 12:48 <ysionneau> I am interested :)
2014-05-20 12:48 <ysionneau> CYB3R_ng: cool!
2014-05-20 12:49 <CYB3R_ng> extremely cheap: http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?SearchText=mips+tablet
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2014-05-20 12:49 <nicksydney> http://www.androidcentral.com/mips-announces-125-jelly-bean-tablet
2014-05-20 12:52 <pcercuei> < ysionneau> I am interested :)
2014-05-20 12:52 <pcercuei> me too, actually
2014-05-20 12:52 <CYB3R_ng> So, related SoCs are: ATM7013, ATM7019, JZ4760, JZ4770, JZ4775, JZ4780
2014-05-20 12:52 <pcercuei> unfortunately they are far from being able to compete with the latest ARM chips
2014-05-20 12:53 <ysionneau> sure
2014-05-20 12:53 <ysionneau> but very good for low end tablets/phones
2014-05-20 12:53 <ysionneau> and if it runs Android, you could port Firefox OS as well
2014-05-20 12:53 <ysionneau> The JIT engine of SpiderMonkey also has a MIPS backend
2014-05-20 12:55 <nicksydney> CYB3R_ng: yeah the ARM based low end chinese tablet and dongle now uses ACTION chip
2014-05-20 12:55 <nicksydney> the problem is they don't release the kernel code for some model if not mistaken
2014-05-20 12:55 <CYB3R_ng> but ingenic does
2014-05-20 12:56 <CYB3R_ng> So JZ47XX are prefered
2014-05-20 12:56 <nicksydney> CYB3R_ng: are they up to date with the Android version ?
2014-05-20 12:56 <CYB3R_ng> not sure, let me check
2014-05-20 12:57 <CYB3R_ng> is Android-JB(4.3) actual version?
2014-05-20 12:57 <nicksydney> yup that's the last jelly bean version after than is Kit Kat
2014-05-20 12:57 <pcercuei> we have a 3.12 kernel for jz4770
2014-05-20 12:58 <nicksydney> pcercuei: have you ever tested the video performance for jz4770 ?
2014-05-20 12:58 <nicksydney> wonder how these chip performed for video/audio
2014-05-20 12:59 <pcercuei> I guess they do pretty well, they have dedicated hardware for video decoding
2014-05-20 12:59 <CYB3R_ng> It has Vivante GC860 graphics, so I guess it's very good.
2014-05-20 12:59 <CYB3R_ng> And vivante driver is opensource, if i'm not mistaken.
2014-05-20 13:00 <ysionneau> oh really? nice
2014-05-20 13:00 <nicksydney> will be interesting to use jz4770 for dev board for Android
2014-05-20 13:00 <nicksydney> for learning purpose
2014-05-20 13:00 <pcercuei> CYB3R_ng: but it's not the GPU which does the video decoding
2014-05-20 13:01 <CYB3R_ng> pcercuei: really? i thought it should
2014-05-20 13:02 <CYB3R_ng> oh, I see
2014-05-20 13:02 <CYB3R_ng> > 1080p video decoding unit for H.264, VC-1 and VP8 (a secondary 500 MHz MIPS processor with SIMD extension)
2014-05-20 13:03 <pcercuei> the SoC has a second mips core that runs at 500 MHz, with its own memory mapping; it is used to access the hardware decoding blocks
2014-05-20 13:03 <pcercuei> there is code for that already: https://github.com/IngenicSemiconductor/XBDEMUX
2014-05-20 13:05 <CYB3R_ng> there should be no problem with video decoding then
2014-05-20 13:08 <pcercuei> in theory
2014-05-20 13:08 <pcercuei> nobody tried that code :)
2014-05-20 13:11 <CYB3R_ng> Well, I had hard time trying to start my own jz47 board. I hope, some day I may switch to jz4770 and try.
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2014-05-20 14:06 <DocScrutinizer05> kyak: hmm? http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=93197&page=7
2014-05-20 14:07 <whitequark> a wild DocScrutinizer05 appears!
2014-05-20 14:14 <wpwrak> and speaks in riddles :)
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2014-05-20 14:17 <DocScrutinizer05> riddles?
2014-05-20 14:17 <DocScrutinizer05> which riddles?
2014-05-20 14:18 <DocScrutinizer05> kyak seems to have claimed no announcement or update since days
2014-05-20 14:18 <wpwrak> aah ! that was the connection
2014-05-20 14:18 <DocScrutinizer05> I suspected he simply missed the thread
2014-05-20 14:19 <wpwrak> how did the meeting with the tax advisor go ?
2014-05-20 14:20 <DocScrutinizer05> it's in 50 min
2014-05-20 14:21 <DocScrutinizer05> I'll just ask him how to avoid the mistakes we did with last fundraiser wording
2014-05-20 14:21 <wpwrak> ah, highlight of the day still ahead :) good luck then, may the clarity be with you !
2014-05-20 14:21 <wpwrak> yes :)
2014-05-20 14:21 <DocScrutinizer05> promising a fixed defined rebate instantly creates a contract. We need to find better wording
2014-05-20 14:22 <wpwrak> apropos ... you once mentioned that the tax guys said it's not possible to make "donations" to a company
2014-05-20 14:22 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, only "schenkungen"
2014-05-20 14:22 <DocScrutinizer05> "spende" only applies to charity and church
2014-05-20 14:22 <wpwrak> i wonder if this is true. i poked around a bit and couldn't see any obstacle for donations
2014-05-20 14:23 <DocScrutinizer05> it's again a wording wanking in law
2014-05-20 14:23 <wpwrak> ONLY for donations that also have tax benefits. but if you don't claim such benefits, it ought to be fine
2014-05-20 14:23 <wpwrak> alas, it's very common to confuse "donation" with "tax-deductible donation"
2014-05-20 14:23 <DocScrutinizer05> well, whatever. There's no such thing like "Spende" - unless tax-deducable
2014-05-20 14:24 <DocScrutinizer05> a non tax-deducable spende is a schenkung
2014-05-20 14:24 <wpwrak> apparently not. schenkung implies no expectation. spende implies that it's for a certain purpose.
2014-05-20 14:25 <DocScrutinizer05> and a schenkung may not get any "payback" or goods or promises in return, or it becomes a contract
2014-05-20 14:25 <wpwrak> e.g., a donation to Neo900 UG would have the motive of furthering the development of that platform.
2014-05-20 14:25 <DocScrutinizer05> whatever, that's a question for my tax adviser
2014-05-20 14:26 <wpwrak> yes. that's why i'm bringing this up
2014-05-20 14:26 <DocScrutinizer05> whatever it is, we can't promise a rebate for it
2014-05-20 14:26 <wpwrak> i get the impression that there may be a middle ground between a gift (schenkung, no strings attached) and a contract
2014-05-20 14:27 <wpwrak> no, a rebate would go too far
2014-05-20 14:27 <wpwrak> but something alone the lines "we want to design the Neo900 platform and are asking for support" may work
2014-05-20 14:27 <DocScrutinizer05> I might be allowed to promise membership in a "club" that offers premium service and discount offers to the members
2014-05-20 14:28 <wpwrak> that's also an option. or a cooperative. etc. there are many ways
2014-05-20 14:28 <DocScrutinizer05> cooperative is way too much organizational overhead
2014-05-20 14:29 <DocScrutinizer05> and a cooperative would again imply contracts
2014-05-20 14:29 <DocScrutinizer05> afk, busy with tax adviser
2014-05-20 14:30 <wpwrak> a club may have the problem that if can't accumulate revenue, though
2014-05-20 14:30 <wpwrak> #s/if/it/
2014-05-20 14:30 <wpwrak> or, rather: if can accumulate but it can't pay it out
2014-05-20 14:30 <DocScrutinizer05> a club isn't a defined term of any kind
2014-05-20 14:31 <wpwrak> well, "verein"
2014-05-20 14:31 <DocScrutinizer05> as long as not "eingetragen" a verein doesn't exist
2014-05-20 14:31 <DocScrutinizer05> and ADAC is an e.V
2014-05-20 14:32 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm not going e.V. for this, too much overhead
2014-05-20 14:32 <wpwrak> is a non-e V a juridical person ? if not, you'd have full liability
2014-05-20 14:32 <DocScrutinizer05> I'll blatantly go "you'll have to trust me"
2014-05-20 14:33 <wpwrak> it's not about anyone trusting you but you trusting everyone else
2014-05-20 14:33 <wpwrak> everyone, including all the trolls of the world
2014-05-20 14:33 <DocScrutinizer05> meh
2014-05-20 14:33 <wpwrak> with limited liability your personal belongings (and those of any other members) are safe
2014-05-20 14:34 <DocScrutinizer05> we currently got enough funds (when we manage to transfer tem)
2014-05-20 14:34 <DocScrutinizer05> and those transfers are to UG, not me
2014-05-20 14:34 <wpwrak> and the UG has limited liability ?
2014-05-20 14:34 <DocScrutinizer05> and they won't create any new contract or liability
2014-05-20 14:35 <DocScrutinizer05> UG *is* limited liability
2014-05-20 14:35 <wpwrak> okay, good
2014-05-20 14:35 <DocScrutinizer05> GmbH
2014-05-20 14:35 <wpwrak> well, let's see what your advisor has to say
2014-05-20 14:36 <DocScrutinizer05> when I manage to show up there
2014-05-20 14:36 <wpwrak> yeah, i'll stop bothering you until you're back ;)
2014-05-20 14:38 <wpwrak> ah, one more thing: i found this nice comparison chart. from austria but i supposed things should be similar across the border: http://koop.bjb.at/bilder/AnhangRechtsformvergleich.pdf
2014-05-20 14:39 <wpwrak> (that's from an organization that tries to promote cooperatives)
2014-05-20 14:40 <kyak> DocScrutinizer05: yeah, i definitely missed that one
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2014-05-20 15:53 <DocScrutinizer51> hmm, tax adviser recommends lawyer
2014-05-20 15:53 <wpwrak> handing over the hot potato :)
2014-05-20 15:54 <wpwrak> what that all (s)he said ?
2014-05-20 15:55 <DocScrutinizer51> basicallyh yes
2014-05-20 15:55 <wpwrak> wow :)
2014-05-20 15:55 <wpwrak> and, got anyone you can ask ?
2014-05-20 15:56 <DocScrutinizer51> I may publish UG account and receive payments
2014-05-20 15:56 <wpwrak> that's already a good step forward
2014-05-20 15:56 <DocScrutinizer51> he recxommended a lawyer
2014-05-20 15:57 <wpwrak> with what specialization ?
2014-05-20 15:58 <DocScrutinizer51> for any "promises" (aka fineprint) that comes with the UG account webpage, I need a lawyer
2014-05-20 15:58 <DocScrutinizer51> dunno specialization of Mr Hoffman
2014-05-20 16:02 <DocScrutinizer51> he mentioned "tantieme" and "dividende" but I need to ask the lawyer about details
2014-05-20 16:04 <wpwrak> ah, he told you where to go. perfect.
2014-05-20 16:07 <wpwrak> the terminology sounds good. do you have a concrete plan for how you want the project to run in the long term, business-wise ? i.e., do you want to operate on crowdfunding alone, possibly seek investors, ... ? also, do you want the "donations" to be considered gifts/donations/some form of contract ? maybe have the option to choose among multiple choices ?
2014-05-20 16:08 <wpwrak> then, what do you plan to create revenue with ? selling things ? selling services ? selling "intellectual property" ?
2014-05-20 16:09 <wpwrak> and then, where does the revenue go ? will you have partners, shareholders, or similar ? will you have a big pile of money just in the organization, to be used in there (e.g., for advance the project or to finance similar future activities) ?
2014-05-20 16:10 <DocScrutinizer51> no, the plan is to get a production-ready Neo900 from the funds we already have, then open normal order (webshop) site and start MP (with ensurance) from the order payments that come in
2014-05-20 16:11 <wpwrak> so revenue will come from "donations" and selling devices
2014-05-20 16:11 <DocScrutinizer51> revenue? which revenue?
2014-05-20 16:12 <DocScrutinizer51> ;)
2014-05-20 16:12 <wpwrak> what you get from selling devices. unless you plan to sell "at cost" ;-)
2014-05-20 16:13 <DocScrutinizer51> nah, I planned for a maybe 10% revenue
2014-05-20 16:14 <wpwrak> btw, just as an aside, also anything "not profit-oriented" doesn't exclude lush compensations for those doing it
2014-05-20 16:14 <wpwrak> 10% for you at the end of the day ?
2014-05-20 16:14 <DocScrutinizer51> kinda
2014-05-20 16:15 <DocScrutinizer51> UG is subcontracting basically eeverything
2014-05-20 16:16 <wpwrak> so no sprawling "joerg industrial park" on google maps anytime soon
2014-05-20 16:17 <DocScrutinizer51> depending on how stuff pans out, those might be 3 or even 0 percent in the end
2014-05-20 16:18 <DocScrutinizer51> eventually (next month or the one after) I gonna pay myself a monthly "salary"
2014-05-20 16:18 <wpwrak> very good
2014-05-20 16:19 <DocScrutinizer51> any revenue coming in at end of project is a bonus
2014-05-20 16:20 <wpwrak> do you plan to share this bonus with anyone ? nik, dos1, maybe others ?
2014-05-20 16:21 <DocScrutinizer51> othersw, no. Nik. unclear (though I'd prefer to share with him), Dos yes
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2014-05-20 16:23 <wpwrak> good. you may have to have to consider such information when you get things started in earnest. dunno if you have to explicitly declare it somehow/somewhere. but your lawyer will tell you that.
2014-05-20 16:24 <DocScrutinizer51> no need to declare anything
2014-05-20 16:25 <DocScrutinizer51> this is a UG no AG
2014-05-20 16:25 <wpwrak> from nik's concerns i get the vibe that it may help to have such things clearly stated. not for shareholders but for tax audits (or their avoidance)
2014-05-20 16:26 <wpwrak> do you know how to do the bookkeeping and such ?
2014-05-20 16:26 <DocScrutinizer51> meh, that's my tax adviser's job
2014-05-20 16:26 <wpwrak> so you'll see him quite often :)
2014-05-20 16:27 <wpwrak> well, or mail
2014-05-20 16:27 <DocScrutinizer51> well, I take all invoices and bills to tax adviser once per month
2014-05-20 16:27 <wpwrak> sounds reasonable
2014-05-20 16:28 <wpwrak> when will you meed that lawyer ?
2014-05-20 16:29 <DocScrutinizer51> I wouldn't have cosnidered starting Neo900 when it wouldn't sound reasonable. I'm allergic to that stuff
2014-05-20 16:29 <DocScrutinizer51> dunno
2014-05-20 16:29 <DocScrutinizer51> too late today to give him a call
2014-05-20 16:29 <wpwrak> (alergic) welcome to the club ;-)
2014-05-20 16:31 <DocScrutinizer51> initially the idea been that GDC does the accounting, but we forgot that this  also means full responsibility
2014-05-20 16:31 <wpwrak> what's the plan for the rights and ownership of the gta04 side of neo900 ? i.e., nik's stuff. as far as i understand it, a lot is basically the same, isn't it ?
2014-05-20 16:32 <DocScrutinizer51> well, yes, I dunno yet. Doesn't matter too much
2014-05-20 16:32 <wpwrak> (fully responsibility) well, for the accounting. you could still screw up anything else on your own responsibility :)
2014-05-20 16:33 <wpwrak> (gta04) not ? will there be so little left of it ?
2014-05-20 16:33 <DocScrutinizer51> obviously when UG pays for hw developmewnt then UG holds the rights in the derived work
2014-05-20 16:34 <wpwrak> well, in the "delta". not in the original work that underlies it.
2014-05-20 16:34 <DocScrutinizer51> I don't care too much if those are exclusive rights
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2014-05-20 16:34 <DocScrutinizer51> no, since we can't build devices from delta
2014-05-20 16:34 <wpwrak> that's one part. the other are publishing rights and such
2014-05-20 16:35 <wpwrak> still, without any other agreement, you can only "own" the delta. so you need to discuss this. doens't have to be complex, but you have to have clarity.
2014-05-20 16:36 <DocScrutinizer51> delta to what?
2014-05-20 16:36 <DocScrutinizer51> UG orders schematics, layout, and even CE et al approval for a device at GDC
2014-05-20 16:37 <DocScrutinizer51> meant to get produced and published
2014-05-20 16:37 <DocScrutinizer51> GDC can't deliver any 'delta'
2014-05-20 16:37 <wpwrak> you basically have the following rights that should matter: 1) use for production, 2) publication (schematics, layout, EDA files), whole or in part, 3) preventing others from using it (that's the "exclusive" right - to exclude others), 4) grant/transfer/license any of your rights to others
2014-05-20 16:38 <wpwrak> (delta) i mean the changes that you make/made to the gta04 design
2014-05-20 16:38 <DocScrutinizer51> yep
2014-05-20 16:38 <wpwrak> oh, and 5) credits (mentioning of original authorship)
2014-05-20 16:39 <DocScrutinizer51> from that pov there's no gta04
2014-05-20 16:39 <wpwrak> so it's a complete redesign from reference designs et al. ?
2014-05-20 16:39 <DocScrutinizer51> but 1..5 is something that's pretty clear for 1 2 3 and not important for 4 5
2014-05-20 16:40 <DocScrutinizer51> (redesign) UG doesn't care
2014-05-20 16:41 <wpwrak> well, if it's a new work by the UG, then GDC holds no rights. if neo900 is an enhanced gta04 design, GDC does hold rights.
2014-05-20 16:41 <wpwrak> of course GDC can just you have them (well, most of them)
2014-05-20 16:42 <DocScrutinizer51> look, GTA04 is a baegleboard redesign
2014-05-20 16:43 <DocScrutinizer51> there is no copyright in schematics
2014-05-20 16:45 <DocScrutinizer51> there's maybe IP in footprints, and that's sth to get sorted between GDC and UG
2014-05-20 16:45 <wpwrak> not sure about schematics. they do have an element of graphical "art", so that may very well protected. the netlist, the distilled technical information, may be a different story, though
2014-05-20 16:46 <DocScrutinizer51> exactly
2014-05-20 16:46 <wpwrak> and yes, anything layout is almost certainly copyrightable
2014-05-20 16:46 <wpwrak> and yes, you have to sort that out. just checking that it's on your agenda ;-)
2014-05-20 16:46 <whitequark> not "almost". layout ~ artwork
2014-05-20 16:46 <whitequark> copyright is funny, it treats schematics like artwork and code like novels
2014-05-20 16:47 <wpwrak> whitequark: with law, there's never any total certainty :)
2014-05-20 16:47 <whitequark> fine :)
2014-05-20 16:48 <wpwrak> (novels) you'd see why if you used a language that lets you freely express yourself ;-)
2014-05-20 16:48 <DocScrutinizer51> that's the tax approach as well
2014-05-20 16:48 <wpwrak> (tax) heh, indeed :)
2014-05-20 16:48 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer51: ... treating code like novels? or never any total certainty?
2014-05-20 16:48 <whitequark> if former, I'm afraid to even ask what unimaginable horror it results in
2014-05-20 16:48 <DocScrutinizer51> latter
2014-05-20 16:51 <DocScrutinizer51> see the bitvhing of estel about eagle project files. I told him there are GDC assets in layout, but for now we don't care about that detail. Initially I suggested Nik should sell the IP to UG so it could get published. We never finished that discussion
2014-05-20 16:52 <DocScrutinizer51> well, sell the right to publish
2014-05-20 16:52 <DocScrutinizer51> he will need to sell the right to use anyway
2014-05-20 16:52 <whitequark> well, the question of layouts is largely academic anyway
2014-05-20 16:53 <DocScrutinizer51> otherwise UG can't build devices
2014-05-20 16:53 <whitequark> I mean, layouts being open-source. it's a philosophical point more than a practical one
2014-05-20 16:53 <wpwrak> whitequark: as far as i know, none of this is open in neo900
2014-05-20 16:53 <DocScrutinizer51> (academic) not when it comes to publishing the leayout files
2014-05-20 16:53 <whitequark> wpwrak: I know
2014-05-20 16:54 <wpwrak> and also things that are open sometimes need enforcing. see gpl-violations.org
2014-05-20 16:54 <whitequark> I mean, we can hardly set up one company to produce the boards. I wouldn't worry about being able to set up another in some unknown future
2014-05-20 16:54 <whitequark> since in five years most of the chips will be EOL anyway
2014-05-20 16:55 <whitequark> or even earlier than chips, those funky connectors DocScrutinizer51 had immense trouble sourcing
2014-05-20 16:55 <DocScrutinizer51> sure
2014-05-20 16:55 <DocScrutinizer51> it's just for fools like estel and friends who think "it MUST be OPEN"
2014-05-20 16:55 <whitequark> hence "philosophical"
2014-05-20 16:56 <wpwrak> connectors are always fun. but creating a company can also be done to protect assets. e.g., if there was a "galaxy inc.", apple couldn't sue samsung
2014-05-20 16:56 <DocScrutinizer51> starts to become a PITA when those suckers accuse you to abuse the term 'open device'
2014-05-20 16:57 <wpwrak> i wouldn't call a strong desire for openness foolish
2014-05-20 16:57 <whitequark> wpwrak: but Samsung *did* copy Apple's design, right? not sure what you're arguing for
2014-05-20 16:57 <DocScrutinizer51> openness of gerber?
2014-05-20 16:57 <whitequark> (even if Apple selected a method of enforcing their point of view that couldn't be more evil)
2014-05-20 16:58 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer51: open source, so the design files. gerber is already an output
2014-05-20 16:58 <DocScrutinizer51> openness of silicon purification process?
2014-05-20 16:58 <whitequark> that's probably already open
2014-05-20 16:58 <whitequark> described in academic papers. go and DIY!
2014-05-20 16:58 <DocScrutinizer51> layout is trivial, go and DIY
2014-05-20 16:59 <wpwrak> whitequark: what i mean is that, if samsung had set up a company specifically for that product, apple would have a harder time getting gazillions out of this
2014-05-20 16:59 <whitequark> wpwrak: that's really hard to say, apple has a lot of power. they'd apply it in some other way
2014-05-20 17:00 <whitequark> bribe the right guy? (they call it 'lobbying')
2014-05-20 17:00 <wpwrak> schematics and layout are useful when you want to add things, when you want to fix things, when you want to learn how to do things, when you want to make new devices when joerg retires to some pacific island, and so on
2014-05-20 17:00 <DocScrutinizer51> ok, afk, since too OT for my tiny screen and kbd
2014-05-20 17:01 <whitequark> I thought schematics would be accessible?
2014-05-20 17:01 <whitequark> (although "accessible" may not always mean "can be reused in a successor device"
2014-05-20 17:01 <DocScrutinizer51> schematics yes, component placement yes. Layout? NO
2014-05-20 17:01 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer51: i'll nag you more about this later, when things are calmer ;-)
2014-05-20 17:03 <wpwrak> whitequark: (bribe) perhaps. but they'd have to spend a fair bit of time on that first obstacle. win a first lawsuit to let them draw samsung into it, then go through the appeals and revision process, and only then, years layer, they could proceed to the actual case
2014-05-20 17:03 <whitequark> I think it went on for some years either way
2014-05-20 17:03 <wpwrak> err, years laTer
2014-05-20 17:03 <DocScrutinizer51> anyway Neo900 never promised to be free hw project, we promised to provide an open device
2014-05-20 17:03 <wpwrak> yes, but you could easily double that
2014-05-20 17:03 <whitequark> and even then, samsung updates their lineage so fast, any past decisions quickly get outdated
2014-05-20 17:04 <DocScrutinizer51> and we clearly specified what we will provide
2014-05-20 17:05 <DocScrutinizer51> I'm not going to defend the not-yet decision about publishing layout of Neo900 against a sucker who calls me names
2014-05-20 17:06 <DocScrutinizer51> "not arduino style? no layout? forget it!"  ok, piss off sucker
2014-05-20 17:06 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer51: you know that it's a bad idea to go shopping when you're hungry, because you'll buy a lot more than you need. given that the human mind works like this, now isn't the best time to discuss proper openness.
2014-05-20 17:07 <DocScrutinizer51> tell that estel
2014-05-20 17:07 <wpwrak> and yes, WHERE ARE THE CONNECTORS FOR MY A-R-D-U-I-N-O SHIELDS ? 5 V !?
2014-05-20 17:07 <wpwrak> also estel may calm down :)
2014-05-20 17:08 <DocScrutinizer51> even my promise to consider that later was no good for him
2014-05-20 17:08 <wpwrak> in that line of work it helps to grow a reasonably thick skin :)
2014-05-20 17:09 <DocScrutinizer51> in that context it helps to kick
2014-05-20 17:09 <whitequark> ... physically
2014-05-20 17:09 <wpwrak> too much effort
2014-05-20 17:09 <DocScrutinizer51> you don't want suckers like him badmouthing you and the project
2014-05-20 17:11 <DocScrutinizer51> because you didn't explain to him already what IS layout and why he doesn't need it
2014-05-20 17:11 <DocScrutinizer51> "dunno whats gerber files but you disclose them or you're rogue"
2014-05-20 17:12 <DocScrutinizer51> jackass
2014-05-20 17:12 <wpwrak> i'd be interested in the layout. well, in a form i can read. eagle wouldn't do me much good.
2014-05-20 17:12 <DocScrutinizer51> indeed
2014-05-20 17:12 <DocScrutinizer51> and you can get all 8 layers as pdf any time
2014-05-20 17:13 <wpwrak> publishing all the stuff also enables you to get external reviews
2014-05-20 17:13 <DocScrutinizer51> but NOOOOO, estel insists in eagle .brd
2014-05-20 17:15 <wpwrak> well, .brd is the most complete form. so that makes sense, if he's able to process it. but then, even if he isn't, someone else could produce the kind of extracts he'd find useful. (that is, if he's really interested ... i'm always a bit suspicious of the types who mention FSF approval)
2014-05-20 17:15 <DocScrutinizer51> check out tmo neo900 subtread "is it fair to call 100% open..."
2014-05-20 17:16 <DocScrutinizer51> swalking, afk
2014-05-20 17:16 <DocScrutinizer51> waking even
2014-05-20 17:16 <DocScrutinizer51> o/
2014-05-20 17:16 <wpwrak> i think i spotted it but then decided that i didn't have to contribute to it at the moment (and you know my point of view on openness already)
2014-05-20 17:16 <wpwrak> heh, swaying ;-)
2014-05-20 17:35 <DocScrutinizer05> openness is ok when you can do it. Bitching wanna be customers who complain about not getting more than been promised are not ok
2014-05-20 17:36 <DocScrutinizer05> bitching jackass calling you names and sprading lies about you is absolutely not ok at all
2014-05-20 17:44 <DocScrutinizer05> http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1425968#post1425968   http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1426060#post1426060  ff
2014-05-20 17:52 * DocScrutinizer05 ponders trying the Estel way: go to next pub, pick one of the dudes sitting there and start bitching at him about he shall buy you a beer and a vodka. Calling him names and explaining that he's always been a stingy sucker and an antisocial hooligan who beats up every pub he visits. Then when he tells me to stop, spit in his face and wait for others to stand up and tell something like >>Everyone has there own problems in 
2014-05-20 17:52 <DocScrutinizer05> real life, and we come here to just relax and have some fun and do/make things that we like, not to fight!<<
2014-05-20 17:54 <DocScrutinizer05> will definitely make for a great evening
2014-05-20 17:54 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: modules/stdpass.fpd (xtal2-3.2mmx1.5mm): add crystal footprint (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/bd36637
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2014-05-20 18:11 <paul_boddie> Wasn't the guy complaining the guy who was making aluminium cases for the N900 or was that someone else?
2014-05-20 18:12 <wpwrak> aluminium cases ? oh dear
2014-05-20 18:13 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, exactly
2014-05-20 18:24 <paul_boddie> Have you asked him for the CAD files? ;-)
2014-05-20 18:26 <wpwrak> the complete chemical specifications of the plastics, please :)
2014-05-20 18:30 <DocScrutinizer05> paul_boddie: brilliant!
2014-05-20 18:30 <DocScrutinizer05> ;-P
2014-05-20 19:06 <CYB3R_ng> I didn't know that kicad-libs repo is for fped files
2014-05-20 19:07 <CYB3R_ng> Maybe I can add my libs too
2014-05-20 19:07 <CYB3R_ng> https://github.com/CYB3Rhuman/footprint-collection
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2014-05-20 23:46 <nicksydney> DocScrutinizer05: well come back to the virtual reality :) been a while seeing you around
2014-05-20 23:48 <nicksydney> added Micrel chip for the 3.3v regulator
2014-05-20 23:48 <nicksydney> for the TPS board
2014-05-20 23:49 <nicksydney> once this board is complete got the power supply sorted out for the TFT and then the fun begin of soldering the BIG 100pin chip
2014-05-20 23:51 <nicksydney> there must be some chip out there that can give you multiple output - eg: 24v, -24v and few output like 3.3 and 1.6/1.8v ?