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18:18 lilvinz has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-08 18:56 pcercuei has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-05-08 18:56 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-08 19:49 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-08 20:06 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-08 20:31 pcercuei has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-05-08 20:37 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-08 20:55 pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo] 2014-05-08 21:35 wolfspraul has quit [Quit: leaving] 2014-05-08 21:41 dos1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-05-08 21:42 dos11 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-05-08 21:43 dos11 is now known as dos1 2014-05-08 21:52 could you help me out why exactly we need systemd? sth about tunning parallel processes? 2014-05-08 21:52 running* 2014-05-08 21:53 sb0 has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2014-05-08 21:53 long live sysV-init! https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=153567 2014-05-08 22:00 i think the main purpose of systemd is to annoy anyone who has reached adulthood 2014-05-08 22:02 DocScrutinizer05: it's true though that traditional init systems are unaware of dynamic environments 2014-05-08 22:02 e.g. ones where interfaces, devices and so on come and go, rather than having a single static configuration 2014-05-08 22:03 ohwell 2014-05-08 22:04 afaik that's what udev is made for 2014-05-08 22:04 udev is unaware of desktop though 2014-05-08 22:05 desktop? 2014-05-08 22:05 desktop. 2014-05-08 22:05 please don't tell me systemd is entangled with desktop 2014-05-08 22:05 this is the whole point of its creation, providing a more convenient interface to the DE 2014-05-08 22:06 huh? 2014-05-08 22:06 similarly to e.g. networkmanager 2014-05-08 22:06 W? T? F?! 2014-05-08 22:07 and pulseaudio and ... 2014-05-08 22:07 and while the solution is quite sub-par, the problems exist 2014-05-08 22:07 I don't see *any* desktop interface for PissAudio 2014-05-08 22:08 according to poettering, one of the goals for PA is to make audio subsystem aware of desktop session 2014-05-08 22:08 e.g. in Windows and OSX you wouldn't hear anything that is not produced by the currently running desktop session 2014-05-08 22:08 with bare ALSA you would 2014-05-08 22:08 and for the life of mine I can't think of a valid usecase where user/desktop had to mess around with system-init 2014-05-08 22:08 starting services on-demand 2014-05-08 22:09 what's wrong with sudo ifup ? 2014-05-08 22:09 e.g. the whole dbus activation business was created for that, and like udev and dbus itself (apparently) it's now folded into systemd 2014-05-08 22:09 wat? 2014-05-08 22:09 do you seriously suggest me to go to the console in order to make an USB modem work? 2014-05-08 22:10 errr 2014-05-08 22:10 or do you suggest for whatever component responsible to go scrape the output of an utility which was never designed for that job? 2014-05-08 22:10 fsck dat modem. I plug it in, udev takes care, network manager does the rest 2014-05-08 22:10 exactly 2014-05-08 22:10 how's that related to sysinit? 2014-05-08 22:11 as I understand it, the idea is to run NM (for example) whenever a dbus request for it arrives 2014-05-08 22:11 and no, you of course can create a .desktop file and click on the icon to execute whatever you like 2014-05-08 22:11 to get faster startup time 2014-05-08 22:11 *I* am not going to bother with creating anything 2014-05-08 22:11 it must just work. 2014-05-08 22:12 poettering bullshit as usual 2014-05-08 22:13 a system that requires manual intervention to perform most basic possible tasks should just die 2014-05-08 22:13 it's not fucking 1995 2014-05-08 22:13 right! kill poettering, kill all his monsters he created 2014-05-08 22:15 when it doesn't need fucking "manual intervention" then pretty please don't make sysinit "desktop aware" since wtf is desktop meant/needed for, if not for "manual intervention" 2014-05-08 22:15 the desktop is meant for solving problems, not creating them 2014-05-08 22:15 and if I have to do *anything* to make basic hardware work, that's creating a fucking huge problem 2014-05-08 22:16 exactly, so tell poettering to leave it alone 2014-05-08 22:16 a shout-out to CUPS, which suffers from similar idiocy 2014-05-08 22:16 huh? 2014-05-08 22:16 although it seemed to get marginally better recently 2014-05-08 22:16 well, I don't know about you, but I don't think I ever managed to set up a printer with CUPS in shorter than ten minutes 2014-05-08 22:16 and it should take 0. 2014-05-08 22:17 and scanners just don't work *shrug* 2014-05-08 22:17 so that's sysinit's fault now? 2014-05-08 22:17 that's a fault of linux on desktop in general 2014-05-08 22:18 if changing sysinit fixes that, then sysinit should be changed 2014-05-08 22:18 I can't recall doing *any* config for 4 out of my last 5 printer-equipped systems I installed 2014-05-08 22:18 then you're lucky 2014-05-08 22:19 I think we should change color of CPU ceramic, since when it changes that we for sure should do it 2014-05-08 22:19 last time I tried it, the printer in our office simply refused to do anything except interpreting binary input as text and promptly printing hundreds of pages of garbage 2014-05-08 22:19 never solved it 2014-05-08 22:19 *shrug* 2014-05-08 22:20 blame your crappy distro! 2014-05-08 22:20 oh fuck off 2014-05-08 22:20 my point is, init is no sacred cow. if changing it somehow actually makes desktop better, then it can and should be changed 2014-05-08 22:21 systemd doesn't seem like the solution to me, though 2014-05-08 22:22 I really don't want a system that has a monster of sysinit that takes care of printer driver installation for all arbitrary printers hotplugged any time during system lifetime, possibly informing user on desktop about "systemd is now downloading printer driver for your fsckMe-piss-ink from internet, stay tuned and praise poettering!" 2014-05-08 22:24 my point is sysinit is damn unrelated to desktop,, and for sure better stays like that 2014-05-08 22:25 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 2014-05-08 22:25 as unrelated to desktop as my trousers are unrelated to the type of motor oil my car engine needs 2014-05-08 22:25 is there a divine rule "sysinit shalt not ever be related to desktop"? 2014-05-08 22:26 no, that's called basic logic 2014-05-08 22:26 a DE is something that ultimately controls *everything* happening on the machine 2014-05-08 22:26 the two aare as unrelated as the display is unrelated to the PSU fan 2014-05-08 22:26 pretty damn logical that it should control service invocation 2014-05-08 22:27 WTF?? get your stuff sorted! [2014-05-09 Fri 00:15:56] and if I have to do *anything* to make basic hardware work, that's creating a fucking huge problem 2014-05-08 22:27 on a desktop (or tablet) the kernel and all the crap around it is a mere UI support library 2014-05-08 22:28 omg 2014-05-08 22:28 I seem to recall why I parted here 2014-05-08 22:33 you now have 3 statements that are 180° opposite to each other, seems not even possible in usual 3-dimensional continuum. 1) sysinit shall take care about lowlevel stuff, I don't want to hear about any of that 2) everything down to systeminit is controlled by desktop and we need generic means to do so, since usual windows and graphic toolkits don't suffice for that, so we need to link desktop into kernel 3) kernel does nothing 2014-05-08 22:33 useful at all. On desktop engines it supports desktop, on all other systems you can forget about kernel since no desktop to support 2014-05-08 22:34 I didn't say anything at all about non-desktop systems, and systemd shouldn't ever touch them at all 2014-05-08 22:34 otherwise your summary is correct 2014-05-08 22:34 ok, no, almost correct 2014-05-08 22:35 I didn't say "link desktop into kernel", I did say "we need to add whatever interfaces desktop wants" 2014-05-08 22:36 please go for M$-windows or even FF-OS 2014-05-08 22:36 nope and nope. 2014-05-08 22:36 unix is a proper OS, not a glorified GUI 2014-05-08 22:37 DocScrutinizer05 has left #qi-hardware ["Konversation terminated!"] 2014-05-08 22:39 and what is a "proper OS" ? 2014-05-08 22:39 a proper desktop or touch-device OS *is* a GUI (and something to run it) 2014-05-08 23:05 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2014-05-08 23:20 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware