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2014-04-28 17:00 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer05: i have a little "electronics vs. the human body" puzzle. let's assume you wanted to build a wrist watch like device whose principal function was to alert you of something, e.g., like an alarm clock.
2014-04-28 17:02 <wpwrak> now, the signal the device produces should be completely unnoticeable to others. so no buzzing or beeping, no flashing light, and also a vibration alarm may be a bit too intrusive
2014-04-28 17:03 <larsc> I guess that rules out high voltage shocks as well
2014-04-28 17:03 <wpwrak> i was thinking that one could perhaps use a mild electric shock, just across the wrist. do you think that would work well ? the shock should just be strong enough that one notices, not strong enough to cause involuntary muscle contraction or such
2014-04-28 17:04 <DocScrutinizer05> adjustable 100..10000V spikes. Possibly energy-defined, not voltage-defined
2014-04-28 17:04 <wpwrak> can't that work with less ?
2014-04-28 17:04 <DocScrutinizer05> less than 100V are hardly noticeable
2014-04-28 17:04 <wpwrak> 10 kV would arc ;-)
2014-04-28 17:06 <DocScrutinizer05> use a multiplier and adjust the frequency. It will nicely attenuate voltage with increasing load
2014-04-28 17:06 <DocScrutinizer05> use sufficiently large electrodes
2014-04-28 17:06 <wpwrak> what would be the easiest way to produce such a 100 V charge ?
2014-04-28 17:06 <DocScrutinizer05> but not too large since that increases the power you need to apply
2014-04-28 17:07 <DocScrutinizer05> multiplier, as I said. Or boost converter
2014-04-28 17:07 <DocScrutinizer05> prolly both
2014-04-28 17:07 <wpwrak> (electrode size) well, the whole thing should be wrist watch sized
2014-04-28 17:07 <DocScrutinizer05> boost plus 4* multiplier
2014-04-28 17:07 <wpwrak> ah, boost plus diode "ladder"
2014-04-28 17:08 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, I *guess* 1..2 cm^2 per electrode (with one electrode as well could be much larger) should work
2014-04-28 17:08 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, ladder == multiplier
2014-04-28 17:08 <DocScrutinizer05> though ideally you use AC
2014-04-28 17:09 <DocScrutinizer05> less electrolytic wear of electrodes
2014-04-28 17:09 <DocScrutinizer05> but AC needs to be <500Hz to avoid skin effect
2014-04-28 17:09 <wpwrak> wear is probably not a big issue since it would have a very low duty cycle
2014-04-28 17:09 <DocScrutinizer05> :nod:
2014-04-28 17:10 <DocScrutinizer05> try a boost converter with high voltage switch (GTA or sth)
2014-04-28 17:11 <wpwrak> GTA ?
2014-04-28 17:11 <DocScrutinizer05> don't forget OV-protection, so it doesn't fry your circuit when the clock has no 'load'
2014-04-28 17:11 <DocScrutinizer05> GTO
2014-04-28 17:11 <wpwrak> still don't know what the acronym means :)
2014-04-28 17:12 <DocScrutinizer05> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gate_turn-off_thyristor
2014-04-28 17:13 <whitequark> whoa, c't hacks has arrived
2014-04-28 17:13 <whitequark> \o/
2014-04-28 17:13 <DocScrutinizer05> dunno it they exist for e.g. 1A as well
2014-04-28 17:13 <DocScrutinizer05> should
2014-04-28 17:14 <DocScrutinizer05> commonly used in cut-off type dimmers
2014-04-28 17:14 <DocScrutinizer05> whitequark: incredible :-D
2014-04-28 17:15 <wpwrak> hmm, that looks like a big device. not ideal for a watch-like critter
2014-04-28 17:15 <DocScrutinizer05> there *are* smaller ones, with <350A
2014-04-28 17:16 <DocScrutinizer05> or use a IGBT, they also qualify for high voltage
2014-04-28 17:16 <DocScrutinizer05> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulated_gate_bipolar_transistor
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2014-04-28 17:19 <DocScrutinizer05> http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?pv16=282&FV=fff40015%2Cfff8007e&k=igbt&mnonly=0&newproducts=0&ColumnSort=0&page=1&quantity=0&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=25
2014-04-28 17:20 <DocScrutinizer05> YW
2014-04-28 17:20 <wpwrak> gtos don't seem to exist, according to digi-key :)
2014-04-28 17:22 <whitequark> whoa, the pictures and schematics sure motivate a great deal to read it
2014-04-28 17:22 <wpwrak> IGBT looks better :) but i guess the booster wouldn't really need to go that high anyway
2014-04-28 17:23 <DocScrutinizer05> it needs to go that high when you don't want to use multiplier
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2014-04-28 17:24 <wpwrak> reading about electric fences ... "weed burners" hehe :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_fence#Fence_energizers
2014-04-28 17:24 <DocScrutinizer05> V+ ->choke->(electrode)->(IGBT||350V-Zener)->GND-(electrode)
2014-04-28 17:26 <wpwrak> hmm ? why the IGBT between the electrodes ?
2014-04-28 17:30 <DocScrutinizer05> to charge energy into the choke
2014-04-28 17:31 <DocScrutinizer05> this design has a drawback of applying V+ to electrode1 all the time
2014-04-28 17:32 <DocScrutinizer05> of course you also can use a design like http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6801045-0-display.jpg and charge the capacitor via a multiplier
2014-04-28 17:32 <DocScrutinizer05> but you need a transformer choke then, of maybe 1:100 or sth
2014-04-28 17:34 <DocScrutinizer05> http://www.ozvalveamps.org/repairs/fencer/fencer1-maincct.jpg
2014-04-28 17:35 <wpwrak> nice, an explanation :)
2014-04-28 17:35 <DocScrutinizer05> http://www.google.com/patents/EP0737413B1?cl=en
2014-04-28 17:38 <wpwrak> ah nice, even with regulatory backgrund
2014-04-28 17:39 <DocScrutinizer05> http://www.electro-tech-online.com/attachments/electricfence-jpg.4007/
2014-04-28 17:39 <wpwrak> eww, complex
2014-04-28 17:40 <wpwrak> but it looks as if most of this could just vanish into an MCU
2014-04-28 17:41 <DocScrutinizer05> the last one is actually pretty nice
2014-04-28 17:43 <DocScrutinizer05> and yes, you can replace IC2b and 7555 by GPIO
2014-04-28 17:43 <wpwrak> ah. "car ignition" !
2014-04-28 17:43 <DocScrutinizer05> you need Q1, T1 and everything right of it
2014-04-28 17:43 <wpwrak> there's a ton of circuits for THAT.
2014-04-28 17:44 <DocScrutinizer05> IC2a you need A/D input on MCU
2014-04-28 17:44 <DocScrutinizer05> sure there's a ton of circuits for that, but those are not exactly easy to adapt for *your* purpose
2014-04-28 17:44 <wpwrak> http://www3.telus.net/chemelec/Projects/Car-Coil/Car-Coil.htm
2014-04-28 17:44 <wpwrak> seems simple enough (?)
2014-04-28 17:44 <DocScrutinizer05> e.g. there's zilch measures to adjust the power
2014-04-28 17:45 <DocScrutinizer05> suuure >> WARNING: This can Kill Smaller animals, such as cats and rabbits, And Probably Even Small Children!<<< *exactly* what you need
2014-04-28 17:46 <DocScrutinizer05> ;-P
2014-04-28 17:46 <wpwrak> this one kills snakes: http://chemelec.com/Projects/Fencer-1/Fencer-1.htm
2014-04-28 17:46 <wpwrak> http://chemelec.com/Projects/Fencer-1/Caught.jpg
2014-04-28 17:47 <wpwrak> "don't try to bite off more than you can chew." never been more true ;-)
2014-04-28 17:48 <DocScrutinizer05> it's all exactly the very basic circuit I suggested in textual notation above, just with a transformer instead of a single choke
2014-04-28 17:50 <DocScrutinizer05> V+ ->choke->(electrode)->(IGBT||350V-Zener)->GND-(electrode)
2014-04-28 17:51 <DocScrutinizer05> duration you open up the IGBT determines the amount of energy stored in choke - or in your device as thermal energy when you open up too long
2014-04-28 17:52 <DocScrutinizer05> IGBT breaking the current will cause the energy in choke to go via electrode, whatever it takes to do that
2014-04-28 17:53 <DocScrutinizer05> unless the Zener kicks in, so you *really* need the Zener when your device fires with electrode NC
2014-04-28 17:54 <DocScrutinizer05> I can't think of a simpler (and worse designed) circuit
2014-04-28 17:54 <DocScrutinizer05> you at least should make sure that your MCU can't open the IGBT permanently
2014-04-28 17:55 <DocScrutinizer05> use a capacitor to couple the gate/basis to GPIO
2014-04-28 17:55 <DocScrutinizer05> this will limit the open-time to at least something
2014-04-28 17:56 <DocScrutinizer05> oooh, swap that
2014-04-28 17:57 <DocScrutinizer05> V+ ->(IGBT||350V-Zener)->choke->(electrode)->GND-(electrode)
2014-04-28 17:57 <DocScrutinizer05> dang, nope
2014-04-28 17:58 <DocScrutinizer05> V+ ->(IGBT)->(electrode)->(choke||350V-Zener)->GND-(electrode)
2014-04-28 17:59 <wpwrak> (choke vs. igbt) ah, i see
2014-04-28 17:59 <wpwrak> and yes, the basic concept always seems the same
2014-04-28 18:00 <DocScrutinizer05> you might want to conect electrode1 via a capacitor to choke*IGBT
2014-04-28 18:00 <DocScrutinizer05> to stop any current created from electrolytic of electrodes on wet skin
2014-04-28 18:01 <wpwrak> ah, i see
2014-04-28 18:02 <wpwrak> okay, i think i have enough i to process at the moment :) (still a bit hung over from the weekend) thanks a lot !
2014-04-28 18:02 <DocScrutinizer05> yw
2014-04-28 18:02 <DocScrutinizer05> can I have one of those? I'm pondering exactly same since years
2014-04-28 18:03 <DocScrutinizer05> wrist watch without display
2014-04-28 18:03 <DocScrutinizer05> still you always know the time exact to the minute
2014-04-28 18:04 <wpwrak> heh, need to see where that goes. a friend asked me if something with a vibration alarm could be built. it wouldn't actually be used as what we'd normally consider an "alarm" but rather to randomly interrupt the person wearing the device, which supposedly would help to enhance the person's ability to pay attention
2014-04-28 18:05 <wpwrak> i fear the rationale behind that claim may reside deep in the metaphysical, though :)
2014-04-28 18:05 <whitequark> I would find whoever made that device and strangle them in their sleep
2014-04-28 18:05 <wpwrak> "what time is it ?" "it's just been three jolts."
2014-04-28 18:05 <wpwrak> whitequark: that was roughly my reaction as well ;-)
2014-04-28 18:06 <DocScrutinizer05> three jolts sounds like dyscordian
2014-04-28 18:06 <DocScrutinizer05> ~ddate
2014-04-28 18:09 <DocScrutinizer05> FFS they killed ddate
2014-04-28 18:10 <DocScrutinizer05> TIMMMYYYYY
2014-04-28 18:11 <DocScrutinizer05> http://linuxcommand.org/man_pages/ddate1.html
2014-04-28 18:12 <wpwrak> ;-))
2014-04-28 18:14 <DocScrutinizer05> Name: util-linux
2014-04-28 18:14 <DocScrutinizer05> Version: 2.23.2-10.1
2014-04-28 18:14 <DocScrutinizer05> >> Ab Version 2.23 ist ddate jedoch nicht mehr standardmäßiger Teil des Pakets.<< SUCKERS!!!!
2014-04-28 18:14 <DocScrutinizer05> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ddate
2014-04-28 18:20 <DocScrutinizer05> #ifdef KILL_BOB
2014-04-28 18:21 <DocScrutinizer05> https://github.com/bo0ts/ddate/blob/master/ddate.c
2014-04-28 18:22 <DocScrutinizer05> LOL
2014-04-28 18:22 <DocScrutinizer05> #ifdef US_FORMAT
2014-04-28 18:22 <DocScrutinizer05> 	    moe,larry,
2014-04-28 18:22 <DocScrutinizer05> #else
2014-04-28 18:22 <DocScrutinizer05> 	    larry,moe,
2014-04-28 18:22 <DocScrutinizer05> #endif
2014-04-28 18:23 <wpwrak> ;-)
2014-04-28 18:24 <whitequark> should've used #ifdef BRAINDEAD
2014-04-28 18:27 <DocScrutinizer05> jr@saturn:~/ddate> gcc ddate.c
2014-04-28 18:27 <DocScrutinizer05> jr@saturn:~/ddate> ll
2014-04-28 18:27 <DocScrutinizer05> total 36
2014-04-28 18:27 <DocScrutinizer05> -rwxr-xr-x 1 jr users 22679 Apr 28 20:26 a.out
2014-04-28 18:27 <DocScrutinizer05> -rw-r--r-- 1 jr users 10421 Apr 28 20:26 ddate.c
2014-04-28 18:27 <DocScrutinizer05> jr@saturn:~/ddate> ./a.out
2014-04-28 18:27 <DocScrutinizer05> Today is Pungenday, the 45th day of Discord in the YOLD 3180
2014-04-28 18:28 <DocScrutinizer05> sudo cp a.out /usr/bin/ddate
2014-04-28 18:29 <DocScrutinizer05> meh, I'm a sissi. usr/local/bin/ddate
2014-04-28 18:33 <DocScrutinizer05> LOL    /*               note: EQUAL SIGN...hopefully that fixes it */
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2014-04-28 20:59 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo/templates/mkmk-simple: make $NAME.drl optional (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/671b74d
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2014-04-28 22:22 <qi-bot> [commit] Paul Cercueil: Show the background while loading the menu (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/dac1e49
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