2014-04-02 00:03 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 00:53 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-04-02 00:57 nicksydney has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-04-02 01:04 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 01:10 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-04-02 01:40 * whitequark sighs 2014-04-02 01:40 * whitequark 's ISP failed again 2014-04-02 01:41 so I set up multiwan between my landline and an LTE dongle, which, by the way, works really well if I put it into a plastic packet and just hang out of the window 2014-04-02 01:41 or rather, I wish I could set up multiwan. where I have LTE coverage, I don't have enough length of Cat5, and vice versa 2014-04-02 01:45 \o/ with the hang-out-the-window method, I'm getting 3/2 mbit/s 2014-04-02 01:49 atommann has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 02:50 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 03:40 DocScrutinizer05 has quit [Disconnected by services] 2014-04-02 03:40 DocScrutinizer05 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 03:48 rz2k has quit [] 2014-04-02 03:50 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 2014-04-02 03:52 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 04:59 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 05:11 interesting http://www.cnx-software.com/2014/04/02/ingenic-newton-platform-for-wearables-is-powered-by-mips-based-jz4775-soc/ 2014-04-02 05:11 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 05:43 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2014-04-02 05:50 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 2014-04-02 06:09 idundidit has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2014-04-02 06:13 idundidit has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 06:13 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 06:20 wolfspra1l has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 2014-04-02 06:44 Jay7 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-04-02 06:44 Jay7 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 06:51 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 07:13 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 09:03 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 09:17 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 10:02 nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-04-02 10:04 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 10:08 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-04-02 10:24 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 10:42 atommann has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2014-04-02 10:46 wej has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-04-02 10:47 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2014-04-02 10:48 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 10:50 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 10:53 wolfspraul has quit [Client Quit] 2014-04-02 11:50 nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-04-02 11:57 atommann has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 12:10 idundidit has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-04-02 12:11 idundidit has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 12:50 Jay7x has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 12:52 Jay7 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2014-04-02 13:27 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-04-02 13:50 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 14:06 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 14:10 michael_lee has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2014-04-02 14:19 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-04-02 14:26 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 14:28 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 14:32 rz2k has quit [] 2014-04-02 15:06 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2014-04-02 15:08 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 15:47 atommann has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2014-04-02 15:54 pcercuei has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2014-04-02 16:02 idundidit has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 2014-04-02 16:10 FDCX has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-04-02 16:12 xiangfu has quit [Quit: leaving] 2014-04-02 16:26 I'm gong to find a nice place to shoot myself in the forehead! 2014-04-02 16:27 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 16:28 :( 2014-04-02 16:28 GDC informed me that all activity about founding UG was absolutely unnecessary since they don't find a way to handle their stuff, no matter if with or without tax number \o/ 2014-04-02 16:29 FDCX has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 16:29 honestly, me moving to USA and then starting the fundraiser on one of those crowdfunding sites would have been 5% of the trouble 2014-04-02 16:31 I think there are crowdfunding sites working in EU too? 2014-04-02 16:31 probably even that 2014-04-02 16:31 indiegogo 2014-04-02 16:31 iirc 2014-04-02 16:32 whatever, I'm really feeling abused 2014-04-02 16:32 honestly, how can you book donations as down payments? 2014-04-02 16:34 * DocScrutinizer05 can't stop headdesking 2014-04-02 16:34 can't GDC just hire you? 2014-04-02 16:36 sure they could - theoretically. But Nik clearly said he thinks it's best when I lead the project 2014-04-02 16:37 then OTOH I'd bite out a minimum of 2000EUR per month from the donations, for not really a fulltime job (as seen by GDC) 2014-04-02 16:38 well... lead financially != lead technologically, isn't it? 2014-04-02 16:38 project lead is all, financially as well as technically 2014-04-02 16:38 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 16:39 so... basically GDC put you into a position where you simultaneously must lead the project, and are financially unable to do that 2014-04-02 16:39 that's not very nice 2014-04-02 16:40 and no matter what, I founded that fucking UG which now breaks my neck, especially when it's not needed at all and thus I can't invoice the founding expense to anything or anyone 2014-04-02 16:40 idundidit has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 16:42 Nik tells me "there's no such thing like donations to commercial comapnies" and then he handles all the donations like down payments to *GDC*. Of course this creates a MESS 2014-04-02 16:51 sorry, use google translate: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spende#Nicht_abzugsf.C3.A4hige_.E2.80.9ESpenden.E2.80.9C see "Schenkung" 2014-04-02 16:54 particularly http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenkung#Handschenkung 2014-04-02 17:00 so he declared the "donations" as "Handschenkung" ? 2014-04-02 17:00 that sounds as if he'd have a lot of flexibility then 2014-04-02 17:01 no, he did NOT, he declares them as down payment ( http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anzahlung ) 2014-04-02 17:02 and yes, technical lead would sound like a sensible role. he may still have to sign your purchase orders and such, but that's all. if he doens't want to hire you, he could also contract you for that role. whatever works best. 2014-04-02 17:03 ah, that was a stupid idea. i didn't like the "this counts towards the final price" concept from the start, though i wouldn't have expected it to be that order of a mess 2014-04-02 17:04 what prevents him from repurposing the money ? would it be trouble with the authorities or the risk that some of the donors may pull out ? 2014-04-02 17:04 err, let me rephrase this 2014-04-02 17:05 ... the risk that some of the donors may not agree and could sue him. 2014-04-02 17:07 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 17:07 i.e., if he could 1) get permission from people to repurpose the money and the 2) re-declare the purpose toward the tax authority (if necessary), that should solve your problem 2014-04-02 17:07 of course, the permission would have to be at an individual level. but then, in the days of e-mail, that's not a hardship :) 2014-04-02 17:08 some may say "no". in which case he could probably simply reimburse them. some may not reply. these are probably the most difficult ones. but hopefully enough would agree and then you could move on, while handling the rest. 2014-04-02 17:11 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 17:29 wpwrak: that been what we planned until 4h ago 2014-04-02 17:30 with "company can't receive donations" as the killer ? 2014-04-02 17:30 now he found out that his tax advisers think that causes trouble with tax office regarding VAT, and he also is afraid of the 400 booking incidents he needs to handle then 2014-04-02 17:30 ah 2014-04-02 17:30 apelete_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 17:30 while last week they said it should be feasible and all they need is my tax number 2014-04-02 17:31 maybe find more competent tax advisors ? :) 2014-04-02 17:31 the real problem is: he insists in the donations being down payments 2014-04-02 17:32 he should leave that decision to the people who made the donations 2014-04-02 17:32 from the very structure of the project it shuold have been obvious that one can't assume he can guarantee them the be true down payments 2014-04-02 17:33 from "Donations of 100 EUR or more entitle to a rebate for a single series production device" and "If the project can't continue for whatever reasons, remaining funds are paid back fairly and equally." he constructs a liability of GDC to pay back to the donors 2014-04-02 17:33 at least that's how i understood it 2014-04-02 17:33 which in turn makes the whole thing a contract with a down payment 2014-04-02 17:33 yes, that was stupid 2014-04-02 17:33 but contracts can be renegotiated 2014-04-02 17:34 as long as both sides agree, you can negotiate almost whatever you want 2014-04-02 17:34 yes, and that one was clearly tailored to not create any liability of whoever received the donations 2014-04-02 17:35 up to "donations", it had no liability :) 2014-04-02 17:35 in sentence #2 we have the definition authority of "remaining funds", "fairly" and "equally" 2014-04-02 17:36 "entitle to a rebate" is exactly that 2014-04-02 17:37 it's NOT a down payment, it just "buys" you an entitlement for something (that may never happen) 2014-04-02 17:37 yeah, use remaining funds for rebates. why not. that sounds good. 2014-04-02 17:37 wut? 2014-04-02 17:37 just agreeing :) 2014-04-02 17:38 no, you agree on some misconception 2014-04-02 17:38 idundidit has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-04-02 17:38 FDCX has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-04-02 17:38 apelete has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-04-02 17:39 please read the comlete text at https://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=Neo900 2014-04-02 17:39 i'm way ahead of you ;-) 2014-04-02 17:39 oh, thanks 2014-04-02 17:40 maybe I'm way ahead of you when I simply cancel the whole fucking project 2014-04-02 17:40 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2014-04-02 17:40 the screw-up seems to be in the 3rd bullet. the 1st one is still okay, since it doens't say how much 2014-04-02 17:41 well, you can of course just calculate the final price as a function of the rebate 2014-04-02 17:41 that's exactly what I planned to do 2014-04-02 17:41 after all, you've not promised a final price 2014-04-02 17:41 and, where was the snag ? 2014-04-02 17:41 eh? 2014-04-02 17:42 remind me which project is this? 2014-04-02 17:42 "what i planned" sounds as if this didn't work. why ? 2014-04-02 17:42 Web-aptosid876_: neo900 2014-04-02 17:42 oh 2014-04-02 17:43 err, whatever it sounds to you, I didn't say that 2014-04-02 17:43 ok 2014-04-02 17:43 oh, so you have a plan. excellent :) 2014-04-02 17:44 strange how this humor makes me angry 2014-04-02 17:44 :) 2014-04-02 17:44 best chance for you to push a bit to kill the whole idiotic project 2014-04-02 17:45 idundidit has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 17:45 poor poor you. I'll be thinking of your pains 2014-04-02 17:45 DocScrutinizer05: sometimes, a smile is just to express happiness, not irony 2014-04-02 17:47 i'm happy because you seem to have what looks like a viable solution, while before it seemed you were stuck 2014-04-02 17:47 err yes that wasn't meant to add to your pain. I wasn't trying to mock you. i was affaid my :) might not go down well. sorry 2014-04-02 17:48 FDCX has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 17:49 btw a rebate remains a rebate, no matter how much it is and when or how precisely you specify that 2014-04-02 17:50 and it's not a stupid project. at least ~350 (?) people don't think it is, and were even willing to bet money on it 2014-04-02 17:50 an entitlement for a rebate is NO down payment 2014-04-02 17:50 yup. that helps. and you have the clause that it may never happen, too 2014-04-02 17:52 I suggested "payment subject: management of Neo900 project by UG. Amount: as donated by community, minus handling" - answer: "can you prove you did this?" OH WELL 2014-04-02 17:52 (for transfer payment from GDC to UG) 2014-04-02 17:52 the conditions on the order page look quite alright. maybe nik screwed up in his tax declaration, i don't know. then we would have to talk to the tax authorities about that. i mean, he can show them the contract terms and all that. it's probably better to talk to them if the operation will look "odd" instead of trying to make it look as unsuspicious as possible and hope they won't complain. 2014-04-02 17:53 could you PLEASE tell that to Nikolaus? 2014-04-02 17:54 what i don't understand is who he is worried about. is it the tax authority or the donors ? 2014-04-02 17:54 authority 2014-04-02 17:54 or actually I don't get it 2014-04-02 17:55 heh ;-) he does seem confused 2014-04-02 17:55 yes 2014-04-02 17:55 pretty much 2014-04-02 17:56 actually I can feel with him, I felt same when I left first tax adviser's meeting which took 2h 2014-04-02 17:57 and his tax advisers seem even more confused 2014-04-02 17:57 (can you prove you did this?) the past tense seems odd 2014-04-02 17:57 ;-) 2014-04-02 17:57 sorry 2014-04-02 17:57 maybe see if you can meet people from the tax office. tell them what you plan to do and ask them if they'd be cool with it. informally, of course 2014-04-02 17:57 It's a eye opener that these preoders don't mean that you have funding. I thought you could some how used the money for your costs and so could give these people a reduced end price because they already paid part of the cost. so preoders look more like a guaranty for they that you have a buyer. sorry to be a irritating clueless idiot. I'd say explaining the situation to your preorders would help anyone like me to unde 2014-04-02 17:57 rstand and want my money to be used as needed. 2014-04-02 17:58 wpwrak: what makes you believe I could do that when HE couldn't? 2014-04-02 17:58 for you that you have a buyer. 2014-04-02 17:59 DocScrutinizer05: ah, "you" = you and nik. maybe bring a tax "advisor" along if that makes him feel safer. and did he actually try ? 2014-04-02 17:59 nfc 2014-04-02 18:00 DocScrutinizer05: propose it ? and perhaps ask him what he means with that proof. i.e., to whom ? does nik doubt you ? does he think some tax inspector will doubt you ? 2014-04-02 18:00 yeah 2014-04-02 18:01 does nik have a criminal record for money laundering or such, that he'd have reason to be overly cautious ? 2014-04-02 18:01 nfc 2014-04-02 18:01 he seems to have a monster nightmare of a accounting program 2014-04-02 18:02 Web-aptosid876_: i don't think you can easily extrapolate the situation of neo900 to other crowdfunded projects 2014-04-02 18:02 SAP ? :) 2014-04-02 18:02 and some pretty rigid assumptions about what is what in tax 2014-04-02 18:03 oh yes 2014-04-02 18:04 he insists that the text on the GDC site creates a contract between donor and GDC which includes a down payment 2014-04-02 18:04 when this was true, then it's his fault, since it never been meant to be that way 2014-04-02 18:05 well, it would be a very special kind of down payment, given "If the project can't continue for whatever reasons, remaining funds are paid back fairly and equally." 2014-04-02 18:06 actually when this was a down payment, then WHY THE FUCK he paid VAT to tax authority for the "orders" from non-EU? 2014-04-02 18:06 maybe there's vat on down payments ? :) 2014-04-02 18:07 the fact that he did proves it's NOT a down payment 2014-04-02 18:07 dunno, i'm not a tax advisor :) 2014-04-02 18:07 no, there is no VAT on down payments for material goods sent to non-EU destinations 2014-04-02 18:08 the general VAT he paid is just because GDC isn't selling any physical goods 2014-04-02 18:09 for non-physical good like promises or software you can't prove the destination, so VAT applies 2014-04-02 18:10 unless you ship the software on a CD 2014-04-02 18:11 what he "sells" is a promise of a rebate, not a Neo900 2014-04-02 18:11 basically a voucher 2014-04-02 18:11 i'd recommend you try to find a way to talk to the tax authority. be it with nik or alone. be friendly with them and tell them that you've been given the runaround from those tax advisors and that yuo'd like to know their opinion. maybe ask them if they can recommend an advisor who can actually help solving the problem instead of making it worse :) 2014-04-02 18:11 larsc: a virtual voucher :) 2014-04-02 18:12 you know, there are those magazines with lots of rebate vouchers in them, cost some 10$ or sth. You can't reclaim your 10$ 2014-04-02 18:13 authorities MUST NOT recommend anybody 2014-04-02 18:14 for the rest: yes, I prolly should do exactly this now, help him out by talking to my tax adviser and my tax authority 2014-04-02 18:14 you may also have to prepare for the possiblity that fixing any incorrect declarations will have a cost. possibly some fees, administrative fines, maybe you'd be entitled to a tax refund but they'll block it for some time, maybe they'll want more, maybe you'll simply lose tax you paid without really having to. 2014-04-02 18:15 (must not recommend) well, if you ask nicely, off the record, they may give you some hints :) 2014-04-02 18:15 yes, I already suggested Nk to go this way, when he doesn't see a way to solve stuff right now 2014-04-02 18:18 it seems that you're at an impasse. at the same time, you're not doing anything illegal or dishonest. so i think exploring new avenues is the way to go, i.e., talking to the tax authority. let them at least tell you how they see the big picture 2014-04-02 18:19 you may have to be prepared to visit them more than once. e.g., if it's really complicated, they may want a specific person that may not be available on your first visit 2014-04-02 18:21 of course, they higher in the hierarchy you get, the better. because in the end you'll probably have spoken to someone who'd have to sign off whatever you do in the end. if they remember you, they'll be less likely to suspect foul play. 2014-04-02 18:25 now there's some good news: ubuntu are burying ubuntu one. one piece of junk less to deinstall after a default installation ;-) 2014-04-02 19:13 whatever ubuntu one may be 2014-04-02 19:14 which default installation would have any relation to ubuntu at large? ;-P 2014-04-02 19:14 *sigh* Nik suggests to cancel the project 2014-04-02 19:15 of course not without blaming me for that 2014-04-02 19:17 that's of course an alternative. you may want to ask him if he'll be able to "shortcut" refunds. e.g., if you restart it on your side, whether he could transfer refunds directly to you (if the donor agrees) 2014-04-02 19:18 but i'd still try to get him to come along to visit the tax authority. see what they have to say. i mean, he's got nothing to lose there. 2014-04-02 19:23 wow, the next USB connector will be reversible after all. (in german) http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Eckdaten-fuer-neue-USB-Stecker-stehen-fest-2160253.html 2014-04-02 19:35 wow! technological progress knows no boundaries 2014-04-02 19:36 wpwrak: old news :-D 2014-04-02 19:38 (shortcut) funny idea. I'll ponder that while getting drunk 2014-04-02 19:38 actually I pondered the same scenario, only without shortcut 2014-04-02 19:39 I might ask for some donations to Neo900 UG account right away 2014-04-02 19:39 to at least ensure that the UG doesn't go bankrupt while trying to come into life and negotiate stuff with GDC 2014-04-02 19:40 a few 100EUR would already make a huge difference 2014-04-02 19:42 (usb) well, i think it was "only" a rumor so far. now it's official. 2014-04-02 19:51 valhalla_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 2014-04-02 19:53 valhalla has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 20:36 apelete_ is now known as apelete 2014-04-02 21:17 michael_lee has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-04-02 21:54 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 21:56 pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo] 2014-04-02 22:05 arielenter has quit [Read error: No route to host] 2014-04-02 22:05 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 22:19 arielenter has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-04-02 22:19 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 22:40 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 2014-04-02 23:34 wolfspra1l has joined #qi-hardware 2014-04-02 23:37 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]