2014-03-26 00:04 [commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw/: support alternative interface names with DFU (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/f1e689e 2014-03-26 00:19 rz2k has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-03-26 00:24 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-03-26 00:25 wolfspra1l has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 00:25 wolfspraul has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 2014-03-26 00:36 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 00:50 nicksydney has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-03-26 00:51 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 01:01 nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-03-26 01:20 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 01:29 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2014-03-26 01:49 atommann has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 01:59 whitequark: from that evonik whitepaperabout acrylic handling: >>• Stichsägeblatt mit Geradverzahnun gund einer Zahnteilung von 2,5 mm<< (jigsaw: sawblade with in-line teeth [not one left one right bent tooth] with at toothpitch of 2.5mm) 2014-03-26 02:01 311-5-tipps-zur-verarbeitung-von-plexiglass-de.pdf 2014-03-26 02:01 s/Geradverzahnun gund/Geradverzahnung und/ 2014-03-26 02:03 also don't use "Pendelhub" when your jigsaw offers that (blade oscillating sideways) 2014-03-26 02:03 and I bet water can't hurt 2014-03-26 02:05 atommann has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2014-03-26 02:12 not sideways.. its oscillating in cutting direction: backtilt when down, forward when up 2014-03-26 02:13 we cut acryllic with a lo2 laser usually 2014-03-26 02:17 right 2014-03-26 02:18 atommann has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 02:20 and then I dunno if it's deprecated or maybe exactly the right thing for cutting acrylic with jigsaw 2014-03-26 02:23 oscillating sideways would affect the blade's life expectancy in dramatic ways :) 2014-03-26 02:26 really? 2014-03-26 02:26 -_-_-_-_-_-_ 2014-03-26 02:29 of course ideally it must also do the forth&back movement roh mentioned, to actually start cutting the overlapping 2nd cut path where it ended the upstroke before last 2014-03-26 02:31 I don't know details about "Pendelhub" maybe because when I tried to find out, I had a little oopsie that can still be seen on my left digit finger's tip 2014-03-26 02:32 the throttle of that jigsaw had a broken poti 2014-03-26 02:33 no, I didn't cut my finger, only contusion between case of jigsaw and blade chuck 2014-03-26 02:40 lucky you :) 2014-03-26 02:41 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-03-26 03:59 (MH370) what are those satellite data that the airplane sent to sats? 2014-03-26 04:00 do airplanes have satellite-based animal-trackers, like whales? 2014-03-26 04:00 or storks 2014-03-26 04:01 would make a lot of sense, but then it's quite interesting to learn about a worldwide secret measure initiated by some TLA-agencies 2014-03-26 04:02 even ETLA maybe, like FIAA? 2014-03-26 04:02 err, scratch that 2014-03-26 04:04 FAA 2014-03-26 04:06 but EASA 2014-03-26 04:09 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 04:19 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2014-03-26 04:20 you mean ACARS ? that can be lots of things, engine data, other system performance data, text messages (kinda SMS), and so on 2014-03-26 04:21 the fate of AF447 was discovered largely based on ACARS data, long before they found the wreck with the black boxes 2014-03-26 04:22 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 04:22 in MH370, however, ACARS stopped sending around the time the plane stopped the transponder 2014-03-26 04:24 but the satellite link was still active, just not sending data. so what they did was use management data from the sat link, which - surprisingly - gets recorded, to try to narrow down the plane's path and last position 2014-03-26 04:30 the "corridors" come from round-trip time measurements. but they also have some pulse trains that are affected by doppler. these were used in the latest analysis the picked the southern corridor 2014-03-26 04:31 there's some amount of detail here: http://avherald.com/h?article=4710c69b 2014-03-26 04:31 http://www.ardmediathek.de/das-erste/report-mainz?documentId=20385478 2014-03-26 04:32 (mh370) thanks for the info :-) 2014-03-26 04:55 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2014-03-26 04:55 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 04:55 arielenter has quit [Client Quit] 2014-03-26 04:56 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 04:56 arielenter has quit [Client Quit] 2014-03-26 04:56 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 04:56 arielenter has quit [Client Quit] 2014-03-26 04:57 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 04:57 arielenter has quit [Client Quit] 2014-03-26 04:58 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 04:58 arielenter has quit [Client Quit] 2014-03-26 04:58 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 04:59 arielenter has quit [Client Quit] 2014-03-26 05:01 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 05:04 arielenter has quit [Client Quit] 2014-03-26 05:17 atommann has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2014-03-26 05:32 atommann has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 05:46 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 05:51 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 06:30 atommann has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2014-03-26 07:33 wolfspra1l has quit [Quit: leaving] 2014-03-26 07:33 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 07:59 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 08:27 pcercuei_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 08:30 pcercuei has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-03-26 08:35 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 2014-03-26 08:37 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 08:44 michael_lee has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2014-03-26 08:59 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 10:24 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 10:44 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 10:53 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2014-03-26 11:36 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-03-26 12:24 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 12:36 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-03-26 12:42 rz2k has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-03-26 12:56 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 13:25 an adapter from HDMI to garden hose: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BjoqFCqCMAAjogd.jpg:large 2014-03-26 13:25 for 'streaming video' 2014-03-26 13:28 na, that can't be any good the h2o connector is not gold plated 2014-03-26 13:28 finally ! i was getting tired of having to make them myself 2014-03-26 13:33 of course HAMA, haha 2014-03-26 13:34 good, Gardena is a better standard with more adapters than HDMI 2014-03-26 13:35 Gardena even has phasers 2014-03-26 13:35 zrafa: i suspect that part of your problem could also be an incorrect pin assignment in the schematics symbol. it's easy to get these wrong. so, if you put your design on a public repo, this can be checked, too :) 2014-03-26 13:42 a word on multiple GND/VDD pins: Pins are the most "expensive" part of a chip, basically. A chip manuf tends to use all available pins for useful functions. So when they see the need for "redundant" VDD and GND pins, they damn sure *need* them to get connected and powered, since it was the only solution to bring clean power to all places on die where it's needed. Otherwise the chip manuf had found a better use for that pin, or worst 2014-03-26 13:42 case simply made it "Not Cpnnected" and save the expense to bond it 2014-03-26 13:44 IOW: there is zero room to stray from chip manufacturer's application notes which clearly state which pin needs to get connected and which may stay unused 2014-03-26 13:46 naw, there's usually plenty of room :) BUT ... the chip may no longer reach its specified performance at all points 2014-03-26 13:47 e.g., additional power pins may be less about distribution than about current 2014-03-26 13:47 you need *öots* of experience for that, and you're on your own 2014-03-26 13:47 *lots* 2014-03-26 13:47 *öots* sounds cooler ;-) 2014-03-26 13:49 and additional VDD pins usually are about additional buffering with low ESR 2014-03-26 13:49 a bit like "your arms will hurt because you have to stretch them to type since you can't sit close to the desk for your giant steel balls won't fit under it" 2014-03-26 13:49 to the point :-P 2014-03-26 13:49 o/ 2014-03-26 13:49 let's put it this way: i agree that it's generally a bad idea to try to take "shortcuts" with such things 2014-03-26 13:50 but then, you can often get away with it, especially if you're not driving the chip very hard 2014-03-26 13:51 you generally have no idea about the consequences though 2014-03-26 13:51 which makes me wonder whether zrafa is experiencing problems because he didn't connect all the VDD/VSS, or if it's because of something else 2014-03-26 13:51 everything from electromigration to FDIV bug at <8°C may ensue 2014-03-26 13:52 in fact, unless he missed all of them, i would expect this chip to work for what he's trying to do. i'm less certain about not having decoupling caps, which he seems to have "optimized out" as well 2014-03-26 13:52 I tend to agree with whitequark who said "or you'll experience very magic behavior" 2014-03-26 13:53 [2014-03-26 14:49:03] and additional VDD pins usually are about additional buffering with low ESR 2014-03-26 13:53 you might even get away with connecting _only_ a buffer cap to the VDD 2014-03-26 13:55 charging of that buffer cap would happen through die traces at high ESR, but it might work 2014-03-26 13:56 yeah :) i have something like that in anelok (by accident, noticed it yesterday) 2014-03-26 13:56 afk 2014-03-26 13:56 that's also one of the reasons why i believe not connecting all the supply pins isn't zrafa's biggest problem 2014-03-26 13:57 no buffer capacitors is the problem. afkafkafk 2014-03-26 13:59 poor kafka, gets blamed for everything 2014-03-26 14:13 atommann has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 14:34 DocScrutinizer05: electromigration 2014-03-26 14:34 ? 2014-03-26 14:34 wpwrak: avrs tend to work through clamp diodes, even without any supply pins at all 2014-03-26 14:35 in fact there's an attiny-based software-defined nfc tag working that way 2014-03-26 14:49 whitequark: what's unclear about EM? 2014-03-26 14:50 (clamp diodes) not only AVR 2014-03-26 14:51 I already built such botch :) Along with other 'outa specs but works great and saves BOM' 2014-03-26 14:52 like driving LED from GPIO high to GND w/o series R 2014-03-26 14:53 you *can* do that when you really know what you're doing and are aware of and tolerate the consequences 2014-03-26 14:55 kristianpaul has quit [Quit: leaving] 2014-03-26 14:56 for the R-less LEDs I had to caclulate total power dissipation in chip and accept that lifetime of that Atmel prolly considerably reduced 2014-03-26 14:56 it been totally withing specs of that product 2014-03-26 14:57 within* 2014-03-26 14:57 ~ping 2014-03-26 14:57 eeew 2014-03-26 15:03 DocScrutinizer51: how about just PWMing it? 2014-03-26 15:03 jekhor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-03-26 15:03 or you didn't have hw pwm on that pin? 2014-03-26 15:20 DocScrutinizer51: remember GTA02 with a BJT to drive a LED, the transistor not having a base resistor ? :) 2014-03-26 15:22 I remember 2014-03-26 15:22 it required a workaround in the gpio driver 2014-03-26 15:22 because the gpios would read back as 0 even though they were set to 1 2014-03-26 15:23 ah yes :) 2014-03-26 15:27 atommann has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-03-26 15:29 hah! 2014-03-26 15:30 GPIO read on an output pin actually sampled the voltage instead of just returning stored value? 2014-03-26 15:31 makes the hardware a little bit more efficient, i guess :) 2014-03-26 15:31 wpwrak: it is not open hardware. we are thinking to be millonaire and we need to write nda so all of you can sign to see the files 2014-03-26 15:32 wpwrak: after the delirious I need to mention that our board does not have any thing to show :P .. it just exposes the pin vdd and vss (pin 3 and 4), swdclk, swdio, reset_b 2014-03-26 15:32 wpwrak: then we can plug wires from ubb to test. 2014-03-26 15:33 zrafa: (closed hw) ah good, then we can charge consulting fees ;-) 2014-03-26 15:33 wpwrak: but of course, it was our hurry try to know if it would be so easy to talk with the mcu 2014-03-26 15:33 wpwrak: but now I know that we need to work a lot more until swd software can talk with mcu :) 2014-03-26 15:33 sometimes it's faster not to take the shortcuts ;-) 2014-03-26 15:34 wpwrak: however, the electronic engineering student guy did the tiny test board with eagle 2014-03-26 15:34 you should have insisted that he'd do it with kicad 2014-03-26 15:34 wpwrak: and he will try to add the other bits to continue (1uF caps), the others vdd/vss, etc. At least to know that we are in some "hello world" stage 2014-03-26 15:35 wpwrak: and turn on a led :) 2014-03-26 15:35 via software 2014-03-26 15:35 in mcu 2014-03-26 15:35 :) 2014-03-26 15:35 well, since your project is still very simple, this is still a good time to switch to kicad 2014-03-26 15:35 btw, you can turn on a LED over SWD 2014-03-26 15:35 after that close hw and millonaire. I will move to Cuba to live happy the rest of my life 2014-03-26 15:36 with the money of this project 2014-03-26 15:36 haha, our kicad evangelist again :) 2014-03-26 15:36 well, one chip, a blinking LED, not much else to show ... yes, i supposed the plan for becoming a millionaire could work :) 2014-03-26 15:37 DocScrutinizer51: what do you prefer? and would switching to kicad be actually worth it? 2014-03-26 15:38 DocScrutinizer51: it's just sick to make yourself depend on closed source for they key piece of your hw development :) 2014-03-26 15:38 depends on your priorities. every PCB house accepts eagle project files 2014-03-26 15:39 DocScrutinizer51: well, I usually send gerbers 2014-03-26 15:39 which is open format and is accepted in 100.0% of houses 2014-03-26 15:39 wpwrak: one *some* level it a!ways becomes closed. Think chips 2014-03-26 15:39 whitequark: I know 2014-03-26 15:39 wpwrak: also eagle now has a documented xml format for its project/board files 2014-03-26 15:39 so it at least doesn't lock you in 2014-03-26 15:40 atommann has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 15:40 I'm sure some PCB CAD software today uses an equivalent of DRM, but it's not eagle 2014-03-26 15:40 DocScrutinizer51: indeed. and that level is high enough. no need to get any further :) 2014-03-26 15:43 well, up to anybody's very own priorities. I think kicad not being ready for primetime, for huge projects particularly 2014-03-26 15:44 sure if you have the preoject requirement 'as FOSS as possible', go for kicad 2014-03-26 15:44 yeah, i do. and it hasn't let me down so far :) 2014-03-26 15:45 if you have the requirement 'as professional and safe as possible' then you prolly wanna go for a more matrure tool 2014-03-26 15:46 how would eagle be safer than kicad ? 2014-03-26 15:46 and particularely when you wanna start learning about all that layout and schematics stuff, you don't pick a tool like kicad that needs a programmer to work around the quirks 2014-03-26 15:47 you haven't used kicad much, have you ? 2014-03-26 15:53 pcercuei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 2014-03-26 15:54 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 15:55 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 15:59 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 15:59 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 16:10 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 16:12 whitequark: of course you can send gerbers, and they will accept them. They however usually won't check them and fix the little oopsies you introduced. On eagle otoh they might 2014-03-26 16:12 DocScrutinizer05: I'm not really sure if I *want* them to fix what they consider little oopsies 2014-03-26 16:13 well, as I already said, it's all up to you 2014-03-26 16:13 they seem to do some processing on gerbers as well. e.g. when I sent boards to iteadstudio, I did not actually send them a drill rack 2014-03-26 16:14 so they "reverse-engineered" vias from top/bottom layers 2014-03-26 16:14 unlike wpwrak I won't try to convince you to use any particular ECAD 2014-03-26 16:14 well, via drill points 2014-03-26 16:14 er, s,drill rack,drill layer, 2014-03-26 16:15 I just say it's worth a closer consideration which tools to use, and you need to know what are your requirements to make an educated choice from the options you got 2014-03-26 16:16 yeah, agreed 2014-03-26 16:16 unrelated: seems like my decision to buy plywood (!) from amazon and then forward it internationally wasn't as dumb as it looks 2014-03-26 16:16 I wasn't able to find thin plywood in either construction stores or on market 2014-03-26 16:17 also the only place which was selling thin (.5mm) copper was only selling it in ~1 sq.m. sheets, and there is no copper tubing thinner than 6mm too 2014-03-26 16:18 (I need a copper anode) 2014-03-26 16:18 plywood seems to have some regional variations. i was also surprised to find that around here, it's not common (if it's used at all) 2014-03-26 16:19 yeah, leroy-merlin has 12mm thick plywood. I don't even have anything to use such humongous logs for 2014-03-26 16:19 12+mm 2014-03-26 16:21 * whitequark ponders at http://www.ebay.com/itm/121287891572 2014-03-26 16:22 actually I can probably make it myself, only thing I need is a mesh 2014-03-26 16:22 I'm going to give up on non-screen-printing methods of depositing the silkscreen layer 2014-03-26 16:22 I've more or less exhausted all options I knew 2014-03-26 16:24 it actually seems that mastering the silkscreen technology can considerably help with avoiding noname dry film resist/mask, which you can never know where to buy when your current vendor evaporates 2014-03-26 16:27 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 16:31 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2014-03-26 16:31 atommann has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2014-03-26 16:32 WTF? >>Shipping: May not ship to Germany<< 2014-03-26 16:35 walk a mile in my shoes... :) 2014-03-26 16:35 pcercuei has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-03-26 16:37 USA creating a de facto embargo on Germany? 2014-03-26 16:38 No, we still don't like that free trade treaty that allows US companies to sue Germany for compensation when we don't want your crappy gene manipulated corn food here 2014-03-26 16:39 whitequark: I don't see how you're going to create any reasonable stencil from that basic kit 2014-03-26 16:40 seems like made for freehand artwork, not for proper fine technical printing 2014-03-26 16:51 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 17:07 DocScrutinizer05: (embargo) that's what you krauts deserver for complaining about the NSA ! 2014-03-26 17:09 hi wpwrak 2014-03-26 17:09 what's up 2014-03-26 17:10 DocScrutinizer05: do you know how silkscreening for PCBs works? 2014-03-26 17:10 you spray or pour liquid resist on mesh, then smooth it out with squeegee and dry 2014-03-26 17:10 eintopf: the cloud layer. a bit higher than earlier in the day. 2014-03-26 17:11 then expose and develop. at end you squeeze yet more resist through the mesh on the PCB 2014-03-26 17:11 be it etching resist, solder mask or UV-curing ink 2014-03-26 17:11 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 17:12 wpwrak: ah ok and that's good? 2014-03-26 17:23 all things considered, it doesn't make much of a difference. well, maybe if you're a pilot 2014-03-26 17:32 michael_lee has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 2014-03-26 17:39 wpwrak: well, where's that liquid resist? 2014-03-26 17:42 tbh I'd rather try to spray or pour light-curing ink to the PCB, then expose and remove the non-cured ink 2014-03-26 17:44 with pigments that are not 100% opaque (particularly on the wavelength the resin needs or acrylate needs to cure) that should work out fine 2014-03-26 17:45 or you even could use thermo-curing when you got pigments that absorb sufficient light to warm the ink up tpo the point where it cures 2014-03-26 17:49 me ? liquid resist ? ain't doing none of that 2014-03-26 17:50 wpwrak: but... how are you 2014-03-26 17:50 I mean your feeling 2014-03-26 17:51 rz2k has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-03-26 17:51 good, good. why ? do i seem odd ? i mean odder than usual ? :) 2014-03-26 17:51 whitequark: ^^^ 2014-03-26 17:55 DocScrutinizer05: one word: uniform thickness 2014-03-26 17:56 it's practically impossible to get uniform thickness of liquid resist without a mesh 2014-03-26 17:56 and honestly I'm baffled as to what spray-on resist is useful *at all* 2014-03-26 17:56 it gives you a hugely nonuniform layer and dries for hours 2014-03-26 17:56 ew 2014-03-26 17:58 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-03-26 18:06 wpwrak: no, I like the known the feelings about my friends :/ 2014-03-26 18:06 when we are friends 2014-03-26 18:08 ah, alright :) so i can adjust the oddity level up ;-) 2014-03-26 18:12 hmm, the "martian chronicles" should be fun. just saw a brief scene. spacecraft lands, astronaut emerges, greets oddly humanoid local, (speaking slowly) "I am from Earth. And this is Mars." local: "Young man, I don't know where you are from but this is Greenville, Illinois." :) 2014-03-26 18:34 sounds like fun 2014-03-26 18:46 no I am level up because I know the author of my old bootloader :O 2014-03-26 18:52 and your old filesystem, probably 2014-03-26 18:54 never used fat under linux 2014-03-26 18:54 but... I think every fat open source implementation used something code from that 2014-03-26 18:54 and indeed some usb sticks has fat :/ 2014-03-26 18:55 pretty much all usb sticks do 2014-03-26 18:55 yeah, vfat (the driver) still has fat underneath 2014-03-26 18:55 the code is even remarkably unchanged :) 2014-03-26 18:56 http://blogs.technet.com/b/microsoft_blog/archive/2014/03/25/microsoft-makes-source-code-for-ms-dos-and-word-for-windows-available-to-public.aspx 2014-03-26 18:56 just popped into my mind 2014-03-26 18:56 not sure if it was mentioned here before :) 2014-03-26 19:02 it seems that everybody here is reading the code now :) 2014-03-26 19:02 now us long-haired hippies can finally use a professional word processor to write our applications, and get a proper job 2014-03-26 19:02 heh 2014-03-26 19:02 i was amazed that they used some kind of bug tracking tracking system back in 88 2014-03-26 19:02 if you grep the code for 'bug', you'll see 2014-03-26 19:03 wpwrak: do you put some things like backdoors in the fat implementation 2014-03-26 19:03 to get root access 2014-03-26 19:04 eintopf: you didn't know? Just create a file named 'wernerisgod' in root of your fat 2014-03-26 19:04 :O 2014-03-26 19:06 LOL 2014-03-26 19:06 wpwrak: did you reverse engineer the filesystem format? 2014-03-26 19:06 of FAT? 2014-03-26 19:07 yes 2014-03-26 19:07 seems that been public knowledge since very much the beginning 2014-03-26 19:08 ah, ok 2014-03-26 19:08 not like samba 2014-03-26 19:08 I think I seen articles in magazines back in the late 80s 2014-03-26 19:08 I mean, it couldn't get much simpler than FAT 2014-03-26 19:09 they started with DOS1 which hadn't any folder concept 2014-03-26 19:09 really? ;o 2014-03-26 19:09 somewhere around dos2 or dos3 they added folders aka directories 2014-03-26 19:09 i don't like folders, i like directories 2014-03-26 19:10 eintopf, DocScrutinizer05: yeah. just looked it up in a book on DOS programming 2014-03-26 19:10 fun fact: in russian, "folder" and "daddy" is the same word 2014-03-26 19:11 DocScrutinizer05: they added a few quirks over time, like different FAT formats, but yes, it's not the most complicated format on earth :) 2014-03-26 19:11 eventually windoue came up with that botch which mitigated the 8.3 format restrictions 2014-03-26 19:11 just wondering, why MS was easy on revealing details about FAT, and so closed about NTFS? It took quite some years to have decent support for NTFS in Linux 2014-03-26 19:11 ("папка") 2014-03-26 19:11 whitequark: so "parent directory" is then a double daddy ? 2014-03-26 19:11 wpwrak: exactly 2014-03-26 19:11 grandpa :) 2014-03-26 19:11 well, it could be interpreted as "grandfather" 2014-03-26 19:12 though the grammatical gender is wrong 2014-03-26 19:12 cross-gender :) 2014-03-26 19:12 kyak: you have to ask wpwrak how easy it was to get the FAT details 2014-03-26 19:12 kyak: NFS is a *real* filesystem, unlike that FAT nonsense 2014-03-26 19:12 kyak: may be zeitgeist. back then few cared about keeping such things secret 2014-03-26 19:12 NTFS* 2014-03-26 19:12 details? you could get all details you need with a few hours with a hex editor 2014-03-26 19:12 or a peter norton book 2014-03-26 19:13 my grandmother used to routinely resurrect deleted files with diskedit and some intense glaring at screen 2014-03-26 19:14 hehe 2014-03-26 19:14 sounds about right 2014-03-26 19:14 back in the days, DOS used to just write \0 as the first symbol of filename 2014-03-26 19:14 to delete, yes 2014-03-26 19:14 and FAT directory entries aren't exactly complex 2014-03-26 19:15 whitequark: i spotted in comments to source code of msdos that directories have \0 at the end for "easier search" :) 2014-03-26 19:15 was there a tool for fragmentation for fat under linux? 2014-03-26 19:15 there are a few minor triccky things like secondary FAT which gets used when primary is corrupted 2014-03-26 19:16 how many copies of the superblock do fat save? 2014-03-26 19:16 :\ 2014-03-26 19:16 I think 2? 2014-03-26 19:17 mhh 2014-03-26 19:17 and I thnk before there been any FAT fs driver, there already been dostools 2014-03-26 19:17 that's not many 2014-03-26 19:19 mtools 2014-03-26 19:19 superblock ? one 2014-03-26 19:19 ntools 2014-03-26 19:19 mtools, yeah 2014-03-26 19:20 mcopy 2014-03-26 19:20 lol 2014-03-26 19:20 A: B: 2014-03-26 19:20 made me pull my hair 2014-03-26 19:21 http://privatepaste.com/729c9280a3 2014-03-26 19:23 interesting.. why not just mount it and then access? 2014-03-26 19:23 or is it just legacy? 2014-03-26 19:23 kyak: yup, mtools < kernel driver 2014-03-26 19:26 kyak: when mtools were invented, there wasn't a FAT fs-driver to mount a FAT fs 2014-03-26 19:27 mtools access directly the raw physical device, iirc 2014-03-26 19:27 which can become really funny when you access a *non*FAT that way 2014-03-26 19:28 wpwrak: did you sign for mtools too? 2014-03-26 19:29 I can't find a (C) in man mtools 2014-03-26 19:30 so werner saved people much typing :) 2014-03-26 19:31 anyway, i briefly tried to run that "uncovered" msdos in virtualbox.. 2014-03-26 19:31 i then realized that i need IO.SYS 2014-03-26 19:32 i found one from msdos 3.x, but it didn't work, and then i gave up :) 2014-03-26 19:32 but i think it would be interesting, especially if one would be able to build it from source 2014-03-26 19:33 (there are both object and source files in archive) 2014-03-26 19:33 http://distro.ibiblio.org/knoppix/docs/knoppix_tutorial/english/mtools.html 2014-03-26 19:33 2004 2014-03-26 19:34 meh, msdos is sooooo out, I refused to use it when it been in, I preferred drdos or err PCdos? 2014-03-26 19:35 I think there are FOSS dos implementations since ages 2014-03-26 19:36 honestly nobody needs or just wants MSdos anymore 2014-03-26 19:36 DocScrutinizer05: that's solely for historical reasons.. Frankly speaking i don't even know what i would do with that or any of FOSS implementations 2014-03-26 19:40 DocScrutinizer05: just you watch soon MSDOS will replace Linux as the leading opensource operating system 2014-03-26 19:41 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 19:42 DocScrutinizer05: as far as i recall, i only contributed some small changes to mtools. i think it was a more sane configuration methos 2014-03-26 19:43 wpwrak: on the lovely topic of "what means `A:´"? 2014-03-26 19:44 yeah ,that kind of thing 2014-03-26 19:44 i think it was originally hardcoded or something like this 2014-03-26 19:44 my hero! 2014-03-26 19:46 yeah, was iirc. Now figure the fun when your boot HDD is second partition of hdb 2014-03-26 19:47 or similar non-standard stuff you frequently see on dualboot/tripleboot systems of hackers like me 2014-03-26 19:47 GOD I hated mtools 2014-03-26 19:49 back in that time you could do funny stuff in linux, like `cd /x/y; mv .. x-foobar´ - then you have to deal with a floppy and suddenly A: and B: and C: comes up 2014-03-26 19:58 and now it all returns, the unbearable messing around with /dev/fd360 /dev/fd720ds and whatnot 2014-03-26 19:58 *shudder* 2014-03-26 20:04 ROTFL!!! >> The VFAT file system allows to store the case of a filename in the attribute byte, if all letters of the filename are the same case,<< 2014-03-26 20:06 fd0H1400 and such ... i also freed the linux world from that :) 2014-03-26 20:08 I owe you a fine bottle of vodka! 2014-03-26 20:08 again LOL > >These formats are supported by numerous DOS shareware utilities such as fdformat and vgacopy. In his infinite hubris, Bill Gate$ believed that he invented this, and called it `DMF disks', or `Windows formatted disks'. But in reality, it has already existed years before! Mtools supports these formats on Linux, on SunOS and on the DELL Unix PC.<< 2014-03-26 20:08 arielenter1 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 20:10 (vodka) hehe :) see "man setfdprm" for the gory details (or google for "setfdprm", in the likely event that you don't have it installed) 2014-03-26 20:10 :/ 2014-03-26 20:11 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-03-26 20:11 interestingly enough, nobody seemed to care sufficiently to improve that man page :) 2014-03-26 20:14 mshowfat :-o 2014-03-26 20:15 we should write a fat 2.0 2014-03-26 20:15 it's called ext2 2014-03-26 20:15 wpwrak: hey, you been at ETHZ in the early 90s? 2014-03-26 20:16 you met Wirth? Maier, Boese? 2014-03-26 20:19 he met my current professor for operating systems 2014-03-26 20:20 err s/boese/vogt/? 2014-03-26 20:20 Dijkstra? 2014-03-26 20:20 A&L Mayer&Vogt 2014-03-26 20:20 (he was visiting EHTZ in '94) 2014-03-26 20:20 tanenbaum 2014-03-26 20:20 hehe tanenbaum 2014-03-26 20:21 tried to use his minix before linux came out 2014-03-26 20:21 i think tanenbaum never was at eth 2014-03-26 20:21 oh 2014-03-26 20:22 alas it needed virtual memory which my machine didn't offer back when 2014-03-26 20:22 MMU 2014-03-26 20:23 Amiga was a nice machine, but alas had no MMU 2014-03-26 20:26 DocScrutinizer05: ETHZ, 87-92, yup. crossed wirth a few times in the corridor. and no, i never met tanenbaum 2014-03-26 20:27 mhm, then I undersatnd why you don't like Pascal and the successors ;-P 2014-03-26 20:30 prolly they tortured you with pascal in your ETH courses. And honestly, plain Pascal is wirthless ;-P 2014-03-26 20:31 yeah, it's no better than C 2014-03-26 20:31 who would voluntarily use such idiotic language, I don't even know 2014-03-26 20:31 It lacked a few elementary vital things, like runtime file handles 2014-03-26 20:31 naw, had to suffer MODULA, which is worse. and then a bit of oberon. 2014-03-26 20:31 or closures and proper lexical scoping 2014-03-26 20:31 oberon is terrible, Modula is rather nice I think 2014-03-26 20:32 i'd say it's just the opposite :) 2014-03-26 20:32 actually turbo pascal been 90% modula and 10% pascal 2014-03-26 20:33 hmm, maybe I never bothered about oberon much 2014-03-26 20:33 i hated modula. but oberon was less heavy. alas, wirth decided to keep it proprietary. well, his loss. 2014-03-26 20:33 heavy as in "redundant"? 2014-03-26 20:34 begin; end; instead of { } 2014-03-26 20:34 or runtime heavy? 2014-03-26 20:35 for runtime, the original wirth languages/dialects always been unusable 2014-03-26 20:35 dunno about runtime efficiency. but yes, lots of typing. felt almost as sluggish as cobol 2014-03-26 20:35 Turbo OTOH been the killer 2014-03-26 20:35 oooh COBOL, there's nothing as terse a s cobol DOT 2014-03-26 20:35 . 2014-03-26 20:35 turbo pascal's been great. that's where i really started to learn programming. 2014-03-26 20:36 I had the "joy" to use M-PASCAL (you know, of those siemens BS-M M80 monsters) 2014-03-26 20:36 err PASCAL-M 2014-03-26 20:37 had to typecast the IO handles, and write my own open() close() 2014-03-26 20:38 ;-)) 2014-03-26 20:38 you can't write recursive flile handling code in plain pascal 2014-03-26 20:38 max 8 file handles, listed in first line of "PROGRAM foobar (in, out)" 2014-03-26 20:39 or 4? can't recall 2014-03-26 20:43 who has more than 4 card readers anyway ? 2014-03-26 20:44 who _needs_ 2014-03-26 20:45 right 2014-03-26 20:47 BS-M had a flat file system device:filename with device something like "PLSK11" and filename 6chars 2014-03-26 20:49 some genius at Siemens(?) invented "libraries" which mapped max 625 files from ASM.AA to ASM.ZZ to a thing like a dir, like ASM/7CHARFN 2014-03-26 20:49 ASM.AA was the directory of that lib 2014-03-26 20:50 those were funny times 2014-03-26 20:50 if you wonder: Plattenspeicher Lesen Schreiben Kombiniert 2014-03-26 20:51 yea, when I started programming in 2002 or so things were much more boring 2014-03-26 20:53 . NOTE DOT (end-if). 2014-03-26 20:54 only way to make COBOL listings digestible 2014-03-26 20:54 at least in COBOL-68(?) 2014-03-26 20:55 arielenter1 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2014-03-26 20:57 sigh, COBOL. computed gosubs, no stack at all, real fun 2014-03-26 20:58 I really wonder if the concept of a stack got invented after COBOL, or they simply were too stupid and ignorant to implement it in COBOL 2014-03-26 20:59 COBOL is the first high-level language ever 2014-03-26 21:00 yep, I know, together with FORTRAN 2014-03-26 21:00 but honestly, storing return addr in a storage cell at end of the subroutine? how stupid is THAT? 2014-03-26 21:01 PDP-7 had this as the standard procedure call instruction in its ISA 2014-03-26 21:01 well, at start of the subroutine 2014-03-26 21:01 aaah 2014-03-26 21:01 oh 2014-03-26 21:02 ok at start 2014-03-26 21:02 maybe they took inspiration from there 2014-03-26 21:02 don't ask how I know about PDP-7 2014-03-26 21:02 definitely 2014-03-26 21:02 I briefly considered porting LLVM to it 2014-03-26 21:02 * DocScrutinizer05 can't help thinking about bread crumbs in deep forest 2014-03-26 21:03 but it has 12-bit bytes, and the amount of places LLVM assumes bytes = octets is so massive I gave up rather quickly 2014-03-26 21:03 "when I went by here, I came from 7373175" 2014-03-26 21:03 also, PDP-7 had self-modifying code as a norm rather than exception 2014-03-26 21:03 :nod: 2014-03-26 21:04 e.g. you were supposed to write most loops that way or something 2014-03-26 21:04 I don't quite follow their broken logic 2014-03-26 21:04 never touched PDP-7 only PDP-8 2014-03-26 21:04 which already been much saner, iirc 2014-03-26 21:04 yep 2014-03-26 21:05 PDP-7 must be older than me 2014-03-26 21:05 :-o 2014-03-26 21:06 nope, 5 years younger 2014-03-26 21:07 "you're older than PDP-7" sounds almost insulting 2014-03-26 21:08 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-03-26 21:09 "you are so old, you used a hexeditor to un-delete files!" 2014-03-26 21:09 life is insulting 2014-03-26 21:09 larsc: that's not really old. I mean, it was still happening in late 90s 2014-03-26 21:10 I could conceivably do that if I was a few years older 2014-03-26 21:10 I'm so old, we used a shredder to delete files 2014-03-26 21:10 hehe 2014-03-26 21:10 or matches 2014-03-26 21:11 punch paper tape is funny to burn 2014-03-26 21:11 and you definitely can't undelete them with a hex editor 2014-03-26 21:12 honestly though, when I started working in a IT job, we already used punch cards as notice papers 2014-03-26 21:13 nobody punched them anymore, and only few of my colleagues knew how to read them 2014-03-26 21:16 actually the first programmable device I touched in my life been a HP-25 2014-03-26 21:17