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2014-03-03 00:13 <DocScrutinizer05> nice! glowing gue
2014-03-03 00:16 <DocScrutinizer05> anyway there must be a lot more of possible EL reactions that you could exploit for that
2014-03-03 00:18 <DocScrutinizer05> I recall age old glass thingies, square with maybe 10*10cm, with a hole for a dial axis in the center, and two wires that allowed the thing to glow green when connected to 220V~
2014-03-03 00:18 <DocScrutinizer05> probably it originally been designed for 110V@400Hz or sth like that. I guess it been from either tanks or airplanes
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2014-03-03 02:09 <nicksydney> wpwrak: have you ever soldered this kind of package http://sigma.octopart.com/10122332/image/Atmel-ATMEGA88-20MU.jpg ?
2014-03-03 02:09 <nicksydney> is the way soldering it similar to QFN ?
2014-03-03 02:17 <wpwrak> yes, it's the same sort of package, just with marginally easier access to the pads
2014-03-03 02:23 <nicksydney> did you use iron or hot air ?
2014-03-03 02:37 <wpwrak> i just use the iron these days. my hot air pencil is even broken but i didn't bother to replace it
2014-03-03 02:40 <wpwrak> even components that have their pads under the case without proper lateral access can be soldered with an iron as long as the pads are close to the edge and can be enlarged a little beyond it. just heat the pad on the pcb and the pad on the chip will get enough heat to make a good enough solder joint.
2014-03-03 02:40 <nicksydney> hot air pencil .. never heard about that before
2014-03-03 02:41 <wpwrak> (heat the pad) this works, for example, for crystals in small packages
2014-03-03 02:42 <DocScrutinizer05> http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/x/big-pencil-concept-12050843.jpg
2014-03-03 02:43 <nicksydney> DocScrutinizer05: geezz
2014-03-03 02:43 <wpwrak> (hot air pencil) the one i have was not terribly useful. the airflow is too fast. not sure why it worked so poorly. i only used it for tricky components like these crystals, but once it broke, i simply figured out that i could do without as well ;-)
2014-03-03 02:43 <wpwrak> ;-)
2014-03-03 03:01 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer05: you'll like the videos linked in this article: http://www.heise.de/tp/blogs/foren/S-Divide-et-impera/forum-275798/msg-24870028/read/
2014-03-03 03:58 <DocScrutinizer05> ohwell
2014-03-03 03:59 <DocScrutinizer05> why do you think I'd like those?
2014-03-03 04:00 <DocScrutinizer05> they are exactly what I expected
2014-03-03 04:23 <kristianpaul> nice ear thingy
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2014-03-03 08:27 <CYB3R> What is wrong with jzboot? http://pastebin.com/RRZTcG4E
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2014-03-03 18:05 <qi-bot> [commit] Paul Cercueil: Fix one icon of the GCW skin (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/eae7156
2014-03-03 19:50 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: FTDI just made a... thing http://www.heise.de/hardware-hacks/meldung/Neue-Mikrocontroller-Architektur-von-FTDI-2132319.html
2014-03-03 19:50 <whitequark> I'm a bit lost as to what are they trying to achieve
2014-03-03 19:50 <whitequark> 8051 and a proprietary 32-bit coprocessor? wtf?!
2014-03-03 19:52 <wpwrak> so you read my comment ;-)
2014-03-03 19:52 <DocScrutinizer05> well, everybody is allowed to build their own processors
2014-03-03 19:53 <DocScrutinizer05> I still like the atmel AT89xx51 chips
2014-03-03 19:55 <whitequark> wpwrak: your comment?
2014-03-03 19:56 <whitequark> oh, I see
2014-03-03 19:56 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: sure, they are, but that's not very useful to enduser
2014-03-03 19:57 <DocScrutinizer05> *shrug*
2014-03-03 19:57 <DocScrutinizer05> maybe you just don't have the matching usecase at hand
2014-03-03 19:59 <DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak: the 8051 FTDI has one thing: 8051 compatibility
2014-03-03 20:00 <DocScrutinizer05> I think a plethora of kbd matrix drivers and whatnot are based on 8051
2014-03-03 20:01 <wpwrak> yeah, i didn't mention that because it's a) implicit, b) a mixed blessing. it's good because you can get a lot of compilers and tools for it. it's bad because the only Free one is sdcc.
2014-03-03 20:02 <whitequark> gcc can't 8051?
2014-03-03 20:03 <wpwrak> as far as i know, it can't. isn't designed for 8 bit
2014-03-03 20:04 <whitequark> hmm.
2014-03-03 20:04 <wpwrak> at least that was the situation a few years ago. dunno if architectural changes since have made things easier in that regard
2014-03-03 20:04 <whitequark> architectural changes in gcc? :)
2014-03-03 20:05 <wpwrak> well, SSA for one
2014-03-03 20:06 <whitequark> isn't SSA there at least for a decade?
2014-03-03 20:06 <whitequark> ah, I see, we have a bit of a different notion of "a few years"
2014-03-03 20:07 <wpwrak> according to wikipedia, sdcc is still the only one; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8051_compiler#C_compilers
2014-03-03 20:07 <whitequark> I see
2014-03-03 20:07 <whitequark> I've seen a halfbaked port of LLVM to AVR, demonstrating that LLVM easily accomodates 8bit architectures
2014-03-03 20:08 <wpwrak> but .. there appear to be projects that ported gcc as well. hmm. http://sourceforge.net/projects/mcs51gcc/
2014-03-03 20:08 <whitequark> it wasn't generating very good code, but then again it was someone's weekend project
2014-03-03 20:08 <wpwrak> "no files". maybe it was more a plan than a project
2014-03-03 20:10 <wpwrak> sees the the number of pointers is more of a problem than being 8 bit: http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2000-01/msg00231.html
2014-03-03 20:10 <DocScrutinizer05> meh! 8051 programs are written in assembler!
2014-03-03 20:10 <whitequark> avr-gcc works just fine
2014-03-03 20:10 <whitequark> and it has two address space
2014-03-03 20:11 <whitequark> again, LLVM has an intrinsic notion of address space for quite some time ;)
2014-03-03 20:11 <whitequark> meaning you won't have to hack optimizer or something. LLVM originally uses that for GPUs, but no reason it can't be used for 8051
2014-03-03 20:12 <DocScrutinizer05> those coders. HAH! c-compiler for a maybe 1kB of program storage. Why not c++?
2014-03-03 20:13 <whitequark> when used right, C++ won't blow up code size, and it could well be applicable in this case
2014-03-03 20:13 <whitequark> it's just that almost no one knows how to use C++ right, and reading any books on it will surely sabotage your ability rather than enhance it
2014-03-03 20:14 <whitequark> it is quite telling that almost the only team I know of who uses C++ right is also the one which implemented a C++ compiler
2014-03-03 20:17 <DocScrutinizer05> and you're probably absolutely right regarding all of that. Incl *program*-storage. RAM is even more sparse on 8051 class MCs (some don't have any real one), amd c++ is a real hog on data structures, with all the opbjects and late binding and whatnot
2014-03-03 20:17 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: exactly, you'd basically be required to only use those C++ constructs expanding during compile time
2014-03-03 20:18 <whitequark> some example on how it would be useful: think data types with units. never again use millimeters where you expect meters
2014-03-03 20:18 <whitequark> that could expand to a simple int or float.
2014-03-03 20:18 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, and use global vars only and whatnot
2014-03-03 20:19 <whitequark> btw I think modern 8051s aren't as sparse, you'd get at least 4k of RAM and maybe 16k of program storage
2014-03-03 20:19 <whitequark> I agree that with <512 or maybe 1k of RAM you're much better off with asm
2014-03-03 20:19 <whitequark> ugh. my remailer wants a "Brand" of noname chinese endmills. apparently they're only used to people buying clothes and shit like that
2014-03-03 20:20 <DocScrutinizer05> Nakamichi
2014-03-03 20:20 <DocScrutinizer05> Honda
2014-03-03 20:20 <whitequark> that's japanese, no?
2014-03-03 20:21 <DocScrutinizer05> 什麼他媽的
2014-03-03 20:21 <whitequark> LOL
2014-03-03 20:21 <whitequark> no, they want it in english
2014-03-03 20:22 <DocScrutinizer05> tell them there's no english translation
2014-03-03 20:22 <DocScrutinizer05> it's a name after all
2014-03-03 20:22 <whitequark> and they crosscheck it  with the invoice
2014-03-03 20:22 <whitequark> in the end all this shit is for customs
2014-03-03 20:23 <DocScrutinizer05> <noname>
2014-03-03 20:23 <DocScrutinizer05> <OEM>
2014-03-03 20:23 <larsc> Whitequark Industries
2014-03-03 20:23 <DocScrutinizer05> <unknown>
2014-03-03 20:24 <whitequark> larsc: at a point I considered registering a company solely that I could deal with all the vendors which apparently bear intense hatred for private individuals
2014-03-03 20:25 <whitequark> looking at the amount of bureaucracy and money required to do that quickly dissuaded me
2014-03-03 20:26 <whitequark> at some point "taxes" turn into "extortion", and russia is far ahead of that point
2014-03-03 20:28 <larsc> you just need to make enough money, at some point you don't have to pay taxes anymore ;)
2014-03-03 20:29 <whitequark> I would surely like to make that much money :p
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2014-03-03 23:13 <DocScrutinizer05> I just wondered what UN blue-helmets were meant for
2014-03-03 23:14 <wpwrak> target practice ?
2014-03-03 23:16 <DocScrutinizer05> aren't those UN troops regularly used when a country has no working internal authorities and conflicts between groups of the people or with neighbors need to get settled?
2014-03-03 23:17 <wpwrak> i guess they're more a reminder that whoever sent them could have sent real soldiers instead
2014-03-03 23:17 <DocScrutinizer05> and wouldn't be any attack to those blue-helmets be an obvious and gross offense against "the good ones"?
2014-03-03 23:17 <wpwrak> well, really equipped for combat. they're of course real enough as soldiers.
2014-03-03 23:18 <wpwrak> what's when they either withdraw or call in the cavalry
2014-03-03 23:18 <DocScrutinizer05> eh?
2014-03-03 23:19 <wpwrak> if they get seriously attacked. sometimes they have "real" troops hanging out nearby.
2014-03-03 23:19 <DocScrutinizer05> I think Russia couldn't justify sending their own troops "to protect their people" when blue helmets are already there to do that
2014-03-03 23:20 <wpwrak> are any blue helmets foolish enough to venture into this ?
2014-03-03 23:20 <DocScrutinizer05> *shrug*
2014-03-03 23:21 <DocScrutinizer05> I don't think you discuss that stuff with your wife at home, then decide "meh, I don't wanna go there"
2014-03-03 23:22 <DocScrutinizer05> afaik UN troops are from normal troops of members of the UN
2014-03-03 23:25 <DocScrutinizer05> and the power that those UN troops are supported with gets determined by those who send their own troops to that mission, together with the mission commander who got appointed by UN. No?
2014-03-03 23:26 <DocScrutinizer05> basically shooting at blue helmets means you start a war against the world. Maybe I'm naive
2014-03-03 23:29 <DocScrutinizer05> when the mission control says they need patriot missiles to enforce a no-fly-zone, they will get them. When they need tanks, they get tanks
2014-03-03 23:30 <wpwrak> hmm, i don't think they would go into serious combat missions
2014-03-03 23:30 <DocScrutinizer05> I seem to recall they did
2014-03-03 23:30 <wpwrak> defend themselves against smaller attacks, maybe. but they wouldn't even have the coordination to go to war on their own
2014-03-03 23:31 <DocScrutinizer05> so you think Russia would just nuke them away and then happily go on occupying ukraine?
2014-03-03 23:32 <DocScrutinizer05> obviously showing whole world the finger and telling them "fuck off, what do you wanna do against it?"
2014-03-03 23:33 <wpwrak> russia would veto their deployment
2014-03-03 23:33 <DocScrutinizer05> maybe russia has no saying when they are one of the conflicting parties
2014-03-03 23:34 <DocScrutinizer05> how could those who are the target of an activity have a word in allowing such activity?
2014-03-03 23:35 <DocScrutinizer05> they could contribute troops to the blue helmets
2014-03-03 23:35 <DocScrutinizer05> or they refuse to
2014-03-03 23:35 <DocScrutinizer05> whatever they like
2014-03-03 23:36 <wpwrak> maybe this helps to clarity who gets sent to such missions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peacekeeping#Participation
2014-03-03 23:36 <DocScrutinizer05> but mission control will not be a russian general
2014-03-03 23:40 <DocScrutinizer05> I don't see any ... point in that. I just see that you seem to argue based on average of previous examples
2014-03-03 23:41 <DocScrutinizer05> nothing in there seems to suggest that EU troups couldn't act as blue helmets in Ukraine
2014-03-03 23:44 <DocScrutinizer05> I however agree that all western nations will be too much chicken to do the right thing
2014-03-03 23:46 <whitequark> http://i.imgur.com/LSim9jH.gif
2014-03-03 23:49 <whitequark> (the text says "chew-chew" and not what you think, though the vague meaning is likely deliberate)
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2014-03-03 23:54 <DocScrutinizer05> ukraina's hair is a bit weird
2014-03-03 23:54 <DocScrutinizer05> kinda chinese, no?
2014-03-03 23:55 <whitequark> um, no. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chupryna
2014-03-03 23:56 <DocScrutinizer05> mhm
2014-03-03 23:57 <DocScrutinizer05> well, anyway seems importing stuff gets much harder for you. sorry for that