2014-02-26 00:03 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 00:08 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2014-02-26 00:09 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 00:11 arielenter has quit [Client Quit] 2014-02-26 00:12 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 00:15 arielenter has quit [Client Quit] 2014-02-26 00:18 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 00:55 wolfspra1l has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 00:59 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2014-02-26 01:04 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2014-02-26 01:30 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2014-02-26 01:34 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-02-26 01:45 kristianpaul has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-02-26 01:48 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 01:55 kristianpaul has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 2014-02-26 01:56 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 01:56 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 02:10 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 02:21 unclouded_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-02-26 03:35 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 04:16 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 04:19 unclouded_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 04:52 hmm, with scope and signal generators converging, i wonder how long until proper multimeters will also be integrated. the higher end DMM already crawl, feature-wise, in the direction of scopes (frequency measurement, trend plots, etc.), 2014-02-26 04:52 while for example agilent have a DVM mode in some of their scopes. so there seems to be a slow convergence. 2014-02-26 04:53 the next step would then to integrate a power supply. these are of course already converging with multimeters ;-) 2014-02-26 04:55 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2014-02-26 06:52 nicksydney has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 2014-02-26 06:53 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 07:20 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-02-26 07:43 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 07:54 nicksydney has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-26 08:32 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 08:44 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 09:18 DocScrutinizer05: ooooh I just had a much better idea about silkscreening 2014-02-26 09:19 see, my problem with stencils is that the ink really tends to disperse over much wider area than I want it to 2014-02-26 09:20 and I don't see any easy way to solve this, less of a rigid frame, some pressing mechanism and maybe that's not even enough 2014-02-26 09:21 the other problem is that my engraving bit is too huge and 125µm film appears to be too thick 2014-02-26 09:21 well, that can probably be solved with work, but this idea might prove to be much simpler 2014-02-26 09:22 so basically: apply dry film resist over mask. expose a negative image of silkscreen on it. use a spatula to spread ink 2014-02-26 09:22 acrylic is resistant to bases, hence I would be trivially able to remove resist with NaOH afterwards without damaging the imprint 2014-02-26 09:22 and film is 50µm thick → just about right amount of ink 2014-02-26 09:23 the only question left is whether NaOH would strip cured solder mask. I hope no, but lemme test it. 2014-02-26 09:28 also the transport company will deliver hypophosphite tomorrow \o/ 2014-02-26 09:29 I really never thought you could apply paint like solderpase to a stencil. Use air spray gun 2014-02-26 09:30 well, that's how silkscreening works! I thought I'd try to duplicate it 2014-02-26 09:30 nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-02-26 09:30 thought about trying air spray, too, maybe I should 2014-02-26 09:31 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 09:31 anyway I want to try the resist idea 2014-02-26 09:31 it sounds just crazy enough to work 2014-02-26 09:31 essentially it would be exactly like silkscreening, except without the mesh 2014-02-26 09:35 unclouded_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-02-26 09:37 this vaguely reminds me of planar process :] how much of a resolution early ICs required, 200µm? I can do 100! 2014-02-26 09:38 200um ? you might be right but it sounds like LOL 2014-02-26 09:39 well exactly. you could make these with a needle and a steady hand! 2014-02-26 09:41 hrm. for some absurd reason all text on illustrations in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention_of_the_integrated_circuit is in russian 2014-02-26 09:43 whitequark: maybe you would like to try something like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iP7BKHU4WUc 2014-02-26 09:43 what for? 2014-02-26 09:44 costume :) 2014-02-26 09:46 * whitequark ponders at http://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/digital-logic/12/329/1422 2014-02-26 09:47 no scale :( 2014-02-26 09:50 unclouded_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 09:58 DIY soldering station https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dbI8-c7ROE#t=32 :) 2014-02-26 10:00 hm, figured out scale of that pic. smallest feature is about 40µm 2014-02-26 10:05 yeah, 40µm sounds a bell here 2014-02-26 10:05 200, not 2014-02-26 10:06 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2014-02-26 10:06 my personal "rule" IC went from um to nm 2014-02-26 10:06 s/e"/e":/ 2014-02-26 10:06 DocScrutinizer05 meant: "my personal "rule": IC went from um to nm" 2014-02-26 10:06 wej_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 10:06 well sure. I was just trying to remember what's the biggest ICs ever 2014-02-26 10:07 does thinfil count? ;-P 2014-02-26 10:07 thinfilm 2014-02-26 10:07 thinfilm? 2014-02-26 10:07 see murata 2014-02-26 10:08 though murata does more thinkfilm I think 2014-02-26 10:08 that's some weird shit 2014-02-26 10:09 well it's not silicon, so doesn't count :p 2014-02-26 10:09 hehe, thought you'd say that 2014-02-26 10:10 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-02-26 10:12 so, stripping test 2014-02-26 10:12 it appears like mask does strip in NaOH but only where it wasn't attached very well 2014-02-26 10:12 so this seems like a possible solution. should try it! 2014-02-26 10:13 ah and acrylic doesn't mostly give a fuck, though it does soften a bit 2014-02-26 10:13 likely due to water rather than NaOH 2014-02-26 10:36 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 10:41 whitequark: is all this your work for master thesis? 2014-02-26 10:41 it for sure would excel for such 2014-02-26 10:41 wpwrak: fancy this http://www.engadget.com/2014/02/25/freescale-kinetis-kl03/?cid=social19129354 ? 2014-02-26 10:42 DocScrutinizer05: no, but I like the way you think :3 2014-02-26 10:49 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 2014-02-26 10:51 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 10:58 nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-02-26 10:59 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 12:08 DocScrutinizer05: spraying sounds like a good idea. and an airbrush is something fun to have anyway :) 2014-02-26 12:09 wpwrak: so you think I need to get an airbrush? or rather an aerosol can? 2014-02-26 12:10 the latter is the lowcost limited-options variant 2014-02-26 12:11 nicksydney: cute, but needs USB :) 2014-02-26 12:12 though, I actually seen spray cans that had a screw-able lid and you would fill them with your paint, close, and pressurize with a second can of propellant 2014-02-26 12:12 nicksydney: i'd rather see the pour their genius into making KL2 chips with more memory in QFN-32 packages 2014-02-26 12:14 whitequark: airbrush has more control than a can. of course, it's a more money on the table to get going. also needs a bit of experimenting before you'll get it right. if you want just acrylic, about any airbrush setup will do. if you also want epoxy, you'll need a relatively powerful compressor (at least so i've been told - didn't try to feed mine with epoxy) 2014-02-26 12:15 wpwrak: wait, airbrushing epoxy? O_o 2014-02-26 12:15 epoxy paint is much tougher (wear-resistant) than acrylic paint 2014-02-26 12:15 oooh epoxy paint, interesting 2014-02-26 12:16 i think epoxy paint is what they use on fridges and such 2014-02-26 12:16 not sure what's used on cars. maybe there, too 2014-02-26 12:17 naw, epoxy degrades under UV 2014-02-26 12:48 http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9322/78948279.fc/0_89cfb_dc33645c_XL.jpg 2014-02-26 12:48 is that... an enormously scaled up cnc mill? 2014-02-26 12:50 from this post, demonstrating how a russian supercar (whatever that is) "marussia" is manufactured: http://kak-eto-sdelano.livejournal.com/140608.html 2014-02-26 12:51 pretty interesting actually 2014-02-26 12:54 have you already asked them if you can move in ? :) 2014-02-26 12:54 yeah, it is: http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9760/78948279.fc/0_89d13_26a4ad2f_XL.jpg 2014-02-26 12:54 :D 2014-02-26 13:50 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 14:12 rz2k has quit [] 2014-02-26 14:18 dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2014-02-26 14:23 dandon has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 14:43 grmbl. my laminator broke. 2014-02-26 14:43 its rollers are supposed to be hot, and motor cold. it works in exactly opposite way for some reason. 2014-02-26 14:55 is that the one you reconfigured to run at an elevated temperature ? 2014-02-26 14:59 nope, didn't change temperature 2014-02-26 15:03 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-02-26 15:05 fortunately it is about as complex as a brick 2014-02-26 15:05 unfortunately it is not as reliable... 2014-02-26 15:06 thermal fuse said bye-bye :( 2014-02-26 15:08 ... why is one mounting hole of it is screwed, but another is *riveted*?! 2014-02-26 15:08 O_O 2014-02-26 15:10 bartbes has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 2014-02-26 15:10 bartbes has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 15:14 oh it is not a rivet, it is a screw 2014-02-26 15:14 rather, it was a screw, once. now it's a mutilated corpse of a screw 2014-02-26 15:15 I regret buying a laminator for $8 2014-02-26 15:18 qual E.T. hath its price 2014-02-26 15:22 boasts "Q.C. passed" As if 2014-02-26 15:31 3, 10, or 13 of v.i. on http://machaut.uchicago.edu/?resource=Webster%27s&word=Pass 2014-02-26 15:35 LOL 2014-02-26 15:36 whitequark: excellent chance to replace that stupid thermofuse/thermostat by a proper electronic temperature regulator 2014-02-26 15:37 nfc what to do about motor though 2014-02-26 15:37 are you sure this isn't operating at overvoltage? 2014-02-26 15:37 DocScrutinizer05: I dunno, I kinda feel ambivalent about the whole thing 2014-02-26 15:37 it's 110V 60Hz rated and I'm running it at 130V 50Hz 2014-02-26 15:38 hmm 2014-02-26 15:38 because I was dumb and bought US shit *again* 2014-02-26 15:38 I swear, I can't remember of existence of other standards at all, especially when they're as moronic as whatever US has for standard 2014-02-26 15:39 US satndards usually are "up to you. it *might* work" 2014-02-26 15:40 in Taipei it seems every apartment has its own local 110V->220V transformer 2014-02-26 15:41 for the whole flat (minus the lights) 2014-02-26 15:41 :-o 2014-02-26 15:42 something *very* odd with electricity in Taipei 2014-02-26 15:42 wpwrak: or was it the other way round? 2014-02-26 15:51 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 15:53 kristianpaul has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-02-26 15:53 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 15:57 maybe you have both scenarios :) 2014-02-26 15:58 okay, hm, it appears to have worked 2014-02-26 15:58 the resist thing 2014-02-26 16:06 lol nope. the ink is much better attached to the resist through the sides than the mask underneath 2014-02-26 16:06 also NaOH *does* strip the mask rather well 2014-02-26 16:19 spray paint, here we come 2014-02-26 16:20 actually, how did you make the stencil ? 2014-02-26 16:20 or did you try paint + mask ? 2014-02-26 16:22 paint+mask 2014-02-26 16:22 err 2014-02-26 16:22 paint+resist 2014-02-26 16:23 that was the first try, when you complained about the paint being to liquid ? 2014-02-26 16:23 #s/to/too/ 2014-02-26 16:25 yep 2014-02-26 16:26 ah, i thought that was with a stencil. how would the liquidity of the paint matter if you 2014-02-26 16:26 're using a mask ? 2014-02-26 16:27 (mask/resist) 2014-02-26 16:29 um, there's some confusion 2014-02-26 16:29 I did try #1 yesterday, with a stencil out of 125µm PET film. paint was too liquid and it spread over too big an area. 2014-02-26 16:29 I did try #2 today 2014-02-26 16:31 ah, not it makes sense. okay. stencil then. how wide did you make the openings ? 2014-02-26 16:34 I took an existing stencil for solder paste, since I didn't have gcode generation for silkscreen ready 2014-02-26 16:34 so... 0.8mm? 2014-02-26 16:35 I think it's the fact that I couldn't make it adjoin the PCB surface very closely 2014-02-26 16:35 oh, pretty big. lemme see what i used in atusb ... 2014-02-26 16:35 add glue :) 2014-02-26 16:36 and what would prevent glue from filling the very openings I'm trying to paint through? 2014-02-26 16:36 stencil #1 would. paint is stencil #2 ;-) 2014-02-26 16:37 meh 2014-02-26 16:37 hmm, atusb silk line width is 0.1 mm 2014-02-26 16:38 yeah, and I also can't mill that out with my cnc 2014-02-26 16:38 let's see what the fab did with this ... 2014-02-26 16:41 hmm: http://www.ebay.com/itm/180917167954 2014-02-26 16:46 michael_lee has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2014-02-26 16:50 fab made the silk lines about 0.2 mm wide 2014-02-26 16:51 http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/IMG_3350.JPG 2014-02-26 16:54 (UV paint) Shipping to: Worldwide ... Excludes: kinda everyone ;-) 2014-02-26 16:55 don't care, they ship to my remailer in US 2014-02-26 17:05 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 17:06 wej_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-02-26 17:09 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 17:09 hm... okay, I'll try the aerosol. That'll have to wait until tomorrow though, the shop is closed 2014-02-26 17:13 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 17:24 pcercuei has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-02-26 17:36 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2014-02-26 17:38 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 17:41 arielenter has quit [Client Quit] 2014-02-26 17:43 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 18:05 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 18:06 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2014-02-26 18:09 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 18:11 arielenter has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-02-26 18:11 arielenter1 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 18:15 lol what 2014-02-26 18:15 https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/otherfab/the-othermill-custom-circuits-at-your-fingertips 2014-02-26 18:16 $1000 for a mill built out of polyethylene, with 140mmx115mmx35mm working area 2014-02-26 18:48 arielenter1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2014-02-26 18:48 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 19:04 yikes 2014-02-26 19:05 exactly 2014-02-26 19:05 and they promise .01mm repeat positioning accuracy, which is... just bullshit 2014-02-26 19:08 well.. maybe they do. but its a 'soft crud' only device anyhow. 2014-02-26 19:09 wax, simple pcb 2014-02-26 19:09 how would they do it with a LDPE frame? 2014-02-26 19:09 fr1 only 2014-02-26 19:09 wait, FR1 only?! 2014-02-26 19:09 its a toy. no clamps existing. 2014-02-26 19:09 they use some doublesided tape for everything they cut 2014-02-26 19:09 oooh fuck 2014-02-26 19:10 if you wanted a mill.. this isnt it. its nice for beginners in electronics and mechanics i guess... maybe for schools 2014-02-26 19:10 building simple led blinky things or so 2014-02-26 19:11 we want a pcb mill too.. but never wanted to invest the 1.5-2.5keuro minimum for a proper setup 2014-02-26 19:11 we -> our hackerspace 2014-02-26 19:11 we got a mill, but cam is hard... and its low-rpm only (3k max) 2014-02-26 19:12 nono, a guy I know bought it 2014-02-26 19:12 and I'm telling him it's crap 2014-02-26 19:12 also ordering pcb from china is too cheap. doublesided 5x5cm 10pcs 1.6mm with printing and solderstop for 10euro 2014-02-26 19:13 it very quickly rises up if you want bigger pcbs, I've considered that 2014-02-26 19:13 look higher at the chart 2014-02-26 19:13 also, 20 day lead time is... not something I want 2014-02-26 19:15 whitequark: "nono" is his name or what you told him ? :) 2014-02-26 19:16 nono is my response to the roh's absurd thought that I wanted that mill 2014-02-26 19:17 other ideas for silk screen: if you don't mind the color to be black, toner transfer. toner transfer may also be an alternative way to get a mask. 2014-02-26 19:18 I've already discussed toner transfer mask here. it's shit and doesn't really have any of the properties you'd want from a mask 2014-02-26 19:18 not scratch-resistant, not very solder-resistant, not pretty, etc 2014-02-26 19:18 toner transfer silkscreen could definitely work, if the black text is recognizable on the substrate 2014-02-26 19:19 it's not quite on a deep-green solder mask 2014-02-26 19:19 true. toner certainly isn't shiny white ... 2014-02-26 19:20 (toner mask) i mean as mask before applying the paint 2014-02-26 19:20 oh 2014-02-26 19:20 but how I'd remove toner afterwards? acrylic is damaged by acetone. 2014-02-26 19:21 hmm, yes, finding a thinner that dissolves one but not the other may be tricky 2014-02-26 19:22 I have high hopes for aerosol 2014-02-26 19:22 didn't you mention also getting paint you heat to cure ? the sort of stuff used on pottery ? that could work. mask, paint, heat, dissolve rest 2014-02-26 19:22 it doesn't involve pushing through stencil so it is highly likely to work 2014-02-26 19:22 wait, "rest" ? 2014-02-26 19:22 how'd I heat it selectively? 2014-02-26 19:22 heat all 2014-02-26 19:22 or get a laser engraver, yet another option :) 2014-02-26 19:23 mount a joerg killer laser on your mill :) 2014-02-26 19:23 well, see, I bought that paint you heat 2014-02-26 19:23 but 1) it appears absolutely the same as the regular paint 2014-02-26 19:24 ah. so acetone and friends remove it ? 2014-02-26 19:24 well, it's acrylic-based 2014-02-26 19:27 another idea: if the paint is too thin, mix it with something. flour, talcum, etc. 2014-02-26 19:27 there's a paint thickener in that shop, but I think the core of issue is in another thing 2014-02-26 19:29 when you apply pressure to silk, it just flexes locally and still adjoins the board closely 2014-02-26 19:29 however this PET film is rather hard, so if you apply pressure to it and it flexes for some reason... it'll detach from board. meaning you push paint under film. 2014-02-26 19:31 hmm, you could try to make it convex/concave. then it would itself maintain a pressure against the board. well, may need some experiments to figure out things 2014-02-26 19:32 maybe you could also coat it with something rubberish, which would act as buffer and seal 2014-02-26 19:32 of course, more experiments :) 2014-02-26 19:32 convex/concave would mean it won't adjoin the pcb on all surface... 2014-02-26 19:33 well, you'd mount it such that the corners are tallest. so if you clamp them down, the whole thing should generate a downward force everywhere 2014-02-26 19:34 but of course, too much curvature and you'll get waves ... or cracks 2014-02-26 19:34 then corners would be FUBAR though 2014-02-26 19:34 make it bigger than the pcb 2014-02-26 19:35 hmmm, I don't think PET film flexes like that 2014-02-26 19:35 like, it wants to flex either horizontally or vertically 2014-02-26 19:36 suspend it, on the corners, then gently apply hot air ? 2014-02-26 19:37 eugh 2014-02-26 19:37 ;-) 2014-02-26 19:37 that'll be really hard to do reliably without morphig those tiny .2mm features 2014-02-26 19:37 it only has to flex, not melt :) 2014-02-26 19:38 naw, not a good idea. 2014-02-26 19:38 I'm more thinking along the way of a proper silkscreening frame, except to keep PET film in it 2014-02-26 19:38 think I could mill something like that 2014-02-26 19:39 well, if you don't need very fine lines, spring-mount a pen that draws in white (like the stuff used for correcting) on your mill and just plot :) 2014-02-26 19:39 LOL 2014-02-26 19:39 or, more fancy, mount a small brush and let the mill tip it into your paint :) 2014-02-26 19:39 * DocScrutinizer05 likes the part about 2joerg kiler laser" 2014-02-26 19:40 * DocScrutinizer05 likes the part about "joerg killer laser" 2014-02-26 19:40 dos11 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 19:40 actually, have you considered inkjet printing? 2014-02-26 19:40 DocScrutinizer05: on what? 2014-02-26 19:41 rather, with what 2014-02-26 19:41 kristian1aul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 19:41 piezo printheads might work just fine with some acrylic paints 2014-02-26 19:42 arielenter1 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 19:43 or maybe use black rubberfoam and a laser and build a stamp from that 2014-02-26 19:44 hmmm 2014-02-26 19:44 if I had a laser, I'd just cut proper .1mm features on stencil :p 2014-02-26 19:45 or use a PCB and do copperplate print? ;-) 2014-02-26 19:45 sound like a nice idea to me 2014-02-26 19:45 copperplate print? 2014-02-26 19:45 you can even use extra thick copper 2014-02-26 19:46 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kupferstich 2014-02-26 19:46 or go creative. fill the paint in little bags, get really angry, and throw them at the pcb. that's called "action painting" :) 2014-02-26 19:47 the result won't convey much meaning, but it will certainly look interesting 2014-02-26 19:47 arielenter has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-26 19:47 dos1 has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-26 19:47 kristianpaul has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-26 19:48 lol 2014-02-26 19:48 DocScrutinizer05: oooooh gravure 2014-02-26 19:48 I love those images so much when I find them in books or wherever 2014-02-26 19:48 copperplate printing is simple and seems pretty easily established 2014-02-26 19:48 practically my favorite form of art/illustration 2014-02-26 19:48 no, just favorite 2014-02-26 19:49 you etch away where paint shall go, then fill the "trenches" with paint ant press the whole thing on your target 2014-02-26 19:49 *nod* 2014-02-26 19:50 for silkscreening should "just work" 2014-02-26 19:50 use 70um PCB 2014-02-26 19:50 wherever would I get that? no clue 2014-02-26 19:50 or even thicker if you can get 2014-02-26 19:50 well, I can electroplate it :p 2014-02-26 19:50 ohwell, I'd start tests with 35um then 2014-02-26 19:51 :-P 2014-02-26 19:51 after all an even plane surface is most important for success 2014-02-26 19:53 why etch if you can mill ... and get a little extra depth from the "overshoot" ? 2014-02-26 19:53 yes!!! 2014-02-26 19:53 :-) 2014-02-26 19:53 why even use copper clad laminate then? just mill the epoxy 2014-02-26 19:54 right 2014-02-26 19:54 wpwrak: you're an expert on weird shit. whatever the hell FR-1 is? can't find it 2014-02-26 19:54 any sufficiently rigid and plane material will do 2014-02-26 19:54 toilet paper in epoxy? 2014-02-26 19:54 no, sounds too strong. toilet paper in wood glue? 2014-02-26 19:54 kinda 2014-02-26 19:54 I guess 2014-02-26 19:54 lol 2014-02-26 19:54 bakelite ? must be something before my time :) 2014-02-26 19:55 no epoxy though 2014-02-26 19:55 epoxy is too modern 2014-02-26 19:55 epoxy is way too modern 2014-02-26 19:55 yeah :) 2014-02-26 19:55 wood and a bucket of water, for the Fire Resistance ? :) 2014-02-26 19:56 nfc what they used in the 30s 40s 2014-02-26 19:56 asbestos ? 2014-02-26 19:56 nope 2014-02-26 19:56 paper with some shitty resin 2014-02-26 19:57 check out "pertinax" 2014-02-26 19:57 some roman emperor 2014-02-26 19:57 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pertinax_(Werkstoff) 2014-02-26 19:57 phenol 2014-02-26 19:58 FR1 = cheap, FR2 = standard 2014-02-26 19:58 paper + phenol 2014-02-26 19:58 dandon is now known as 20WABD6M5 2014-02-26 19:58 oh, there's "cheap" pertinax, too ? i'm impressed 2014-02-26 19:58 dandon has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 19:58 indeed, me too 2014-02-26 19:59 dandon has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-26 19:59 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenoplast 2014-02-26 19:59 also, formaldehyde 2014-02-26 19:59 I think if RoHS should restrict *something*, it's that 2014-02-26 19:59 it's a carcinogen 2014-02-26 19:59 but you can build german cars with it :) 2014-02-26 20:00 so the HCl won't get you ;) 2014-02-26 20:01 "unsrer rostet, eurer fault"? 2014-02-26 20:01 well, DDR cars. I'm not surprised. if DDR cars were about as good as Russian ones... 2014-02-26 20:01 DocScrutinizer05: ;-) 2014-02-26 20:01 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2014-02-26 20:01 apelete has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2014-02-26 20:01 20WABD6M5 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2014-02-26 20:02 actually Trabbi was pretty modern 2014-02-26 20:02 regarding the hull 2014-02-26 20:03 if only they had taken glass fibre instead of old rags 2014-02-26 20:05 dandon has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 20:17 btw: I found out how higher-end CNCs of same vendor perform Z setting 2014-02-26 20:17 http://www.carving-cnc.com/media/simples/6040Z+S80_details_1.jpg 2014-02-26 20:17 I'll be able to easily make such thing 2014-02-26 20:18 bah, manual clamp. that's cheating 2014-02-26 20:18 well... you'd have to manually clamp pcb anyway, 2014-02-26 20:18 if the bit is isolated from the table, you could just use the table as zero 2014-02-26 20:18 *. 2014-02-26 20:18 valhalla has quit [Read error: No route to host] 2014-02-26 20:19 the table has grooves however, and I suspect is not perfectly flat (need to check that closer) 2014-02-26 20:19 well, not "not perfectly flat", rather "not mounted ideally parallel to XY plane" 2014-02-26 20:19 the the table isn't flat, this method will also produce flaws 2014-02-26 20:20 oh, right. 2014-02-26 20:20 and regarding grooves, you know where they are, so just avoid them :) 2014-02-26 20:20 btw, did you solve the Z wrongness ? 2014-02-26 20:20 hahahaha, amazing thing I just found. CNC6040 sell from ebay at $1585 2014-02-26 20:21 now these guys are reselling literally same machine, with their name and at $3331: http://agranat-avia.ru/product_4.html 2014-02-26 20:21 shipping, taxes and such ? 2014-02-26 20:22 shipping is included in ebay price 2014-02-26 20:22 freight, at nearly 60kg 2014-02-26 20:23 in argentina most things you buy locally are also 2x what you'd pay in the US. there are of course about 50% import taxes, sales tax (not sure if that can be deducted from the import taxes), shipping, customs processing fees, vendor's margin, ... 2014-02-26 20:23 to .ru ? 2014-02-26 20:24 to anywhere 2014-02-26 20:24 they ship from HK 2014-02-26 20:24 taxes... well 2014-02-26 20:30 valhalla has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 20:36 apelete has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 21:20 porchao has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-02-26 21:20 porchao has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 21:21 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 21:28 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 21:34 kristian1aul has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-02-26 21:34 apelete has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-02-26 22:41 arielenter1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2014-02-26 22:42 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 22:45 apelete has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 22:59 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2014-02-26 23:01 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 23:07 haha, their (othermachine) argument for FR-1 is "FR-4 is harmful when inhaled" 2014-02-26 23:13 I bet that's correct, at least when you inhale a fullsize eurocard 2014-02-26 23:15 well, according to MSDS it is slightly irritating 2014-02-26 23:16 but recommending a fullblown carcinogen instead of a slightly irritating substance because your machine couldn't mill the latter is a whole new level of hypocrisy 2014-02-26 23:17 I would even say that is more than slightly irritating *rimshot* 2014-02-26 23:19 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2014-02-26 23:20 inhaling any object of eurocard size is more than slightly irritating 2014-02-26 23:20 I dunno if it causes cancer though 2014-02-26 23:21 probably you won't live long enough to develop cancer 2014-02-26 23:21 phenolformaldehyde resins tend to emit both of these components, afaik it was used extensively in furniture (PF-resin-bound wood) 2014-02-26 23:21 and that was bad enough those were banned *in Russia* 2014-02-26 23:21 yup 2014-02-26 23:22 atleast I remember that fact from my childhood and I didn't have a whole lot of non-RU discussion around 2014-02-26 23:22 formaldehyde is banned pretty much everywhere now 2014-02-26 23:23 ooh, right, *that's* why there are no sources for FR-1 except some shady alibaba guys 2014-02-26 23:23 I still recall using shampoo which praised the formaldehyde content on boilerplate 2014-02-26 23:23 anti-lice? 2014-02-26 23:23 no, regular shampoo 2014-02-26 23:24 I can't think of anything else warranting addition of formaldehyde 2014-02-26 23:24 makes your hair stronger 2014-02-26 23:24 or somesuch 2014-02-26 23:24 was there a toxic-chemical-craze, just like radiation-craze? 2014-02-26 23:24 hm? 2014-02-26 23:25 well you know, in the beginning of 20th century there was a radiation craze. "drink radium salt 20 times a day and all illnesses will disappear", somesuch 2014-02-26 23:25 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-26 23:25 makes your hair stronger ... assuming that it kills you before your hair gets weak again 2014-02-26 23:26 e.g.: http://blog.nyhistory.org/get-me-a-radium-highball-new-york-and-the-radium-craze/ 2014-02-26 23:26 side effects: the cancer therapy may cause hair loss. 2014-02-26 23:26 there also were inlays for shoes that had some substance that when getting wet produced formaldehyde, wearing this stuff in your shoes for two days allegedly cured stinkfoot 2014-02-26 23:29 btw you know that methyl alcohol is poisonous because it metabolizes to formaldehyde? 2014-02-26 23:29 just like ethanol metabolizes to acetaldehyde 2014-02-26 23:29 yeah 2014-02-26 23:30 and antidote is ethanol, 'cause it competes as an alcoholdehydrogenaze substrate 2014-02-26 23:30 leaving more time for your poor liver to process resulting formaldehyde 2014-02-26 23:30 even if that stuff wasn't discussed on my freshman year in uni, I *am* russian after all :p 2014-02-26 23:30 whitequark: you've seen this one, haven't you ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q1gksqqhLU 2014-02-26 23:31 that's why the standard therapy for methanol poisoning is drinking large amounts of alcolhol, so the liver can't metabolize so much methanol per time unit, reducing formadlehyde concentration in body 2014-02-26 23:31 I see you been faster in typing 2014-02-26 23:32 DocScrutinizer05: now that sounds nice. go to the hospital, tell them you drank some methanol, get booze all night on doctor's orders ;-) 2014-02-26 23:32 wpwrak: nope, never did 2014-02-26 23:32 this happens every day 2014-02-26 23:32 wpwrak: (hospital) I'm sure they have a standard procedure for such cases, with sole purpose of making your life hell 2014-02-26 23:32 rz2k has quit [] 2014-02-26 23:33 e.g. perform a gastric lavage just for the sake of it 2014-02-26 23:33 yes, they do 2014-02-26 23:33 and you don't drink the alcohol but rather I.V. 2014-02-26 23:33 that gets you drunk more efficiently 2014-02-26 23:34 yep 2014-02-26 23:34 whitequark: i see that the spirit of Yezhov hasn't died yet :) 2014-02-26 23:34 but no fun either 2014-02-26 23:34 a homemade version of that would be an alcohol enema, tampon or just go to bathhouse and pour vodka on hot stone, therefore absorbing it through lungs 2014-02-26 23:35 a positive aspect of it is that you get less hungover and don't smell of last night's liquor 2014-02-26 23:35 a negative aspect of it is that it's impossible to evacuate via puking, therefore if you overdose it's rather fatal 2014-02-26 23:35 and yes, we discussed all that in classes 2014-02-26 23:36 very pragmatic :) 2014-02-26 23:36 I honestly don't even remember context anymore. we did discuss a lot of fun things though 2014-02-26 23:36 effect of meth and heroine on dopaminergic system (brutal) 2014-02-26 23:36 neurotoxins 2014-02-26 23:37 a *lot* of various neurotoxins and their biological activity 2014-02-26 23:37 dopaminergic system? 2014-02-26 23:37 in russia, you learn for life, not just for school ;-) 2014-02-26 23:38 DocScrutinizer05: reward/motivation system of the brain, composed of special neurons with receptors for dopamine 2014-02-26 23:38 hmm, and what's the effect? 2014-02-26 23:39 taking drugs causes the neurons to die and brain's own dopamine output to diminish (homeostasis; if you have receptors stimulated externally, internal means of production will shut down) 2014-02-26 23:39 as a result it's more or less depression for the rest of your life 2014-02-26 23:40 o.O cool¡ 2014-02-26 23:40 it's a rather abridged version, of course, but I hope it conveys the gist of it 2014-02-26 23:40 * wpwrak imagines whitequark, after DocScrutinizer05's question, running down to the dealer at the next street corner, get some collection, toss some pills, run up, and describe the effect in scientific terms :) 2014-02-26 23:40 dissecting my own brain would be rather complex 2014-02-26 23:41 plus there's a *lot* of literature describing exactly what wpwrak wants to hear 2014-02-26 23:41 both scientific and amateur 2014-02-26 23:41 yeah, worst thing in that regard been a liver resection 2014-02-26 23:41 i'm sure the right drugs will give you enough introspection to manage that without even a skull drill :) 2014-02-26 23:41 oh? liver? 2014-02-26 23:42 some med student, at home. Then halfway drove to hospital since he ran unto some trouble I don't recall anymore 2014-02-26 23:42 hardcore 2014-02-26 23:42 worst thing I heard about, a doctor on polar station performing appendectomy on himself, since no one else could 2014-02-26 23:42 think he was russian too (not sure) 2014-02-26 23:43 dos11 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 2014-02-26 23:43 yep: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonid_Rogozov 2014-02-26 23:43 dies ... at the age of 110, in otherwise perfect health ? 2014-02-26 23:43 >Rogozov died in 2000, aged 66, in Saint Petersburg, Russia, from lung cancer. 2014-02-26 23:44 hmm, should have quit the radon sooner 2014-02-26 23:44 smoking, more likely 2014-02-26 23:44 polar 2014-02-26 23:45 all the radiation there 2014-02-26 23:45 (j/k) 2014-02-26 23:45 lung cancer. lungs aren't the most sensitive body part to radiation 2014-02-26 23:46 * DocScrutinizer05 still wonders why the neurons would die 2014-02-26 23:46 ah, no, actually could be radiation 2014-02-26 23:46 50/50 lung/leukemia 2014-02-26 23:46 DocScrutinizer05: overstimulation 2014-02-26 23:46 O.o 2014-02-26 23:46 you're right to be surprised, that's not how neurons normally work 2014-02-26 23:46 but dopaminergic ones are a bit special 2014-02-26 23:46 pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo] 2014-02-26 23:46 I don't quite remember all the details already 2014-02-26 23:47 lemme see if I still have the textbook 2014-02-26 23:47