2014-02-24 00:01 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 243 seconds] 2014-02-24 00:03 nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-02-24 00:03 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 00:06 yeah, or built from special electrostatically relaxed steel 2014-02-24 00:07 with an ESD absorber mantra handwritten on the device by a guru 2014-02-24 00:17 http://www.amazon.de/dp/B000ND965E/ http://www.ebay.de/itm/Kaltlicht-Lupenleuchte-Lupenlampe-22W-125mm-5-Dioptrien-Glaslinse-weiss-/151229352408? http://www.ebay.de/itm/Grosse-Lupenleuchte-Lupenlampe-19x15-7cm-Glaslinse-3-20-Dioptrien-2x-9W-/151169336943?ebayCategoryId=85737 2014-02-24 00:18 LOL or that one http://www.bueromarkt-ag.de/lupenleuchte_eschenbach_vario_led_25x,p-27771,l-94511215,pd-b2c.html 2014-02-24 00:48 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2014-02-24 00:48 viric_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 00:48 viric_ is now known as viric 2014-02-24 00:49 ornotermes has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-24 00:49 kristianpaul has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-24 00:49 jow_laptop has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-24 00:49 apelete has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-24 00:50 ornotermes has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 00:50 apelete has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 00:50 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 00:50 jow_laptop has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 00:52 hello all. does anyone know of any open hardware 3S balancing LiPo chargers available either as a kit or built up? 2014-02-24 01:02 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2014-02-24 01:03 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 01:39 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 01:51 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2014-02-24 02:18 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 02:31 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 02:32 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-02-24 02:37 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2014-02-24 02:37 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 02:59 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-02-24 03:00 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 03:45 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 04:15 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2014-02-24 04:40 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 04:40 wpwrak: ping ! 2014-02-24 04:57 arielenter has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 2014-02-24 05:15 nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-02-24 05:15 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 05:31 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 05:31 arielenter has quit [Client Quit] 2014-02-24 05:47 hmm, turns out I was not eager enough with NaOH 2014-02-24 05:48 I left the board in it overnight as a test and now it truly passes the water break check 2014-02-24 05:48 compared to other one which seems to be cleaned of organic contaminants well enough for resist to attach well but still not entirely 2014-02-24 06:26 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-02-24 06:53 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2014-02-24 06:55 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 07:26 wpwrak: so I added H2O2 to persulphate 2014-02-24 07:26 so far it makes a lot of gas bubbles appear 2014-02-24 07:27 well, on the board surface 2014-02-24 07:31 newcup has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 07:32 it doesn't though look like etching is faster 2014-02-24 07:55 apelete_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 07:58 kristian1aul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 07:58 ornoterm1s has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 07:58 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 07:58 jow_lapt1p has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 08:03 ornotermes has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-24 08:03 kristianpaul has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-24 08:03 jow_laptop has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-24 08:03 apelete has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-24 08:03 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-02-24 08:04 It feels like you've been etching 24h/d for the last couple of days :) 2014-02-24 08:09 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 08:12 apelete_ is now known as apelete 2014-02-24 08:13 larsc: well, when I want something solved, I solve it. 2014-02-24 08:14 without any regard to irrelevant minutae like life, sleep, etc 2014-02-24 08:18 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 08:20 http://lab.whitequark.org/notes/2014-02-24/on-water-break-test/ 2014-02-24 08:21 I especially wonder what's up with the color: http://lab.whitequark.org/images/thumbnails/c71d286ce61f4981c05cc826576acfa59d5e36a2.jpeg 2014-02-24 08:28 "well, when I want something dissolved, I dissolve it" :) 2014-02-24 08:32 hehe 2014-02-24 08:32 ok. I finished etching and H2O2 doesn't make a iota of difference 2014-02-24 08:32 except some cool visual effects 2014-02-24 08:33 how strong is your peroxide ? 2014-02-24 08:36 3% 2014-02-24 08:36 I poured an entire 100ml bottle there 2014-02-24 08:40 well, 3% isn't very strong. you poured mainly water. so if the reaction already had an oxidizer before, the difference should be minor 2014-02-24 08:41 yeah, you're right here 2014-02-24 08:42 you could go to stronger peroxide, though. e.g., with HCl, 3$ is pretty tame. with 35% the copper is gone in a few seconds (while the acid happily boils and fumes) 2014-02-24 08:43 yeah, I think I'll place a second order at that reagent vendor, buy proper peroxide and those organic copper salts to test various activation methods 2014-02-24 08:44 35% is great to refresh an old solution without adding a lot of water, though. a few ml in maybe 1-2 dl and it's good to go again 2014-02-24 08:46 wpwrak: by the way, defects from yesterday seem to be insufficient toner density 2014-02-24 08:46 because today they were at pretty much same places 2014-02-24 08:46 so it's a defect of photomaster. not a defect of exposition, since they;re not systematic 2014-02-24 08:48 http://i.imgur.com/Jm0DNxa.jpg 2014-02-24 08:48 now we're getting somewhere 2014-02-24 08:49 I still don't quite like how they're... trapezoidal in section 2014-02-24 08:51 yes, that's weird. what pitch is that chip ? 2014-02-24 08:51 tqfp 2014-02-24 08:52 so... 0.5mm? 2014-02-24 08:54 naw, should be 0.8, maybe 0.65 2014-02-24 08:54 but check the data sheet :) 2014-02-24 08:54 (or your cad files :) 2014-02-24 08:54 btw, this is toner transfer + hcl: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/IMG_3262.JPG 2014-02-24 08:54 it's an atmega8... 2014-02-24 08:55 the holes are horribly off, barely usable. but the etching went well. 2014-02-24 08:55 0.8, yes 2014-02-24 08:55 nice etching. is that 170µm copper? 2014-02-24 08:56 mine is 0.5 mm, 0.2 mm traces 2014-02-24 08:56 just a random board from a local shop. dunno how much copper 2014-02-24 08:57 traces seem much thinner on picture 2014-02-24 08:57 well... do you have a caliper? 2014-02-24 09:00 they may be thinner. not sure how precisely toner transfer reproduces the edges 2014-02-24 09:01 caliper yes, but no partially covered board :) 2014-02-24 09:01 anyway, the results are about the same with a board that has knows specs ... looking up the ref ... 2014-02-24 09:03 http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en/prototyping-products/prototype-boards-unperforated/2359509?k=%20PC44-ND 2014-02-24 09:03 so that's 1 oz 2014-02-24 09:03 hmm 2014-02-24 09:03 no visible trapezoid there 2014-02-24 09:03 like this (alas, already tinned): http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/solder-qfn.jpg 2014-02-24 09:05 here's a more detailed picture: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/IMG_2809.JPG 2014-02-24 09:06 (this is the 0.8 mm board, 0.5 mm pitch on the QFN, 0.2 mm nominal trace width) 2014-02-24 09:06 doesn't seem like you have that trapezoid, no 2014-02-24 09:07 clearance is also 0.2 mm though i like to keep it a bit larger. else, i sometimes get shorts 2014-02-24 09:07 you traces look more "gnawed on". as if the acid had been working on them for too long 2014-02-24 09:07 also the wavy outline gives that impression 2014-02-24 09:10 wpwrak: 45 minutes 2014-02-24 09:10 so yeah 2014-02-24 09:14 oh dear :) 2014-02-24 09:16 when i let my acid go too slow, it also starts to develop problems 2014-02-24 09:18 e.g., this board took almost half an hour (estimated - i didn't look at the clock) and suffered some over-etching, made worse by having a lot of long traces: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/IMG_3311.JPG 2014-02-24 09:18 since it's otherwise completely undemanding, i used it anyway, but you can see that i had to patch it up at a few places 2014-02-24 09:20 side view, with better contrast: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/IMG_3307.JPG 2014-02-24 09:21 hmm 2014-02-24 09:21 pretty well for an overetched board 2014-02-24 09:21 in this case, my acid is getting too diluted and i would need too much peroxide to reactivate it. so for the next board, i'll move about half of the acid to long-term storage. then the rest will be easier to maintain. 2014-02-24 09:21 well, you see the broken traces ... :) 2014-02-24 09:22 btw, do you not use resist because it's hard to get through customs? 2014-02-24 09:22 the copper around the pre-drilled holes looks terribly rotten 2014-02-24 09:22 DocScrutinizer05: on which board? 2014-02-24 09:23 i just didn't like the complex process. i think materials should be available locally. 2014-02-24 09:23 http://i.imgur.com/Jm0DNxa.jpg 2014-02-24 09:24 yes, the vias holes are crap. actually, that's not a problem of the etching but of the drilling - i was too lazy to change bits, so i just did them with the endmill, which is too large for that 2014-02-24 09:24 bit since they're all very trivial anyway, ... 2014-02-24 09:24 ah, his board :) 2014-02-24 09:24 DocScrutinizer05: true. I screwed up with drilling the holes a bit, and poor etching exacebrated it 2014-02-24 09:24 had built-up edge 2014-02-24 09:25 either no drilling before etching, or at least seal holes with e.g. wax after drilling 2014-02-24 09:25 ah no, now i remember. it wasn't the endmill but a wider drill i had used for the pogo pins. anyway, same result - the vias ended up half-eaten 2014-02-24 09:25 it looks like under-etching combined with poor attachment of PhRe 2014-02-24 09:26 no, photoresist was attached very well there: http://lab.whitequark.org/images/thumbnails/c12e9fe54b906ec16f677083b841994349b1e46d.jpeg 2014-02-24 09:26 see, it covers holes entirely 2014-02-24 09:26 DocScrutinizer05: i drill before etching and as you can see, there isn't much damage 2014-02-24 09:26 I drill before etching because it's much easier to position stuff and precisely mill out the board 2014-02-24 09:27 you get positioning markers for photomaster for free 2014-02-24 09:27 whitequark: etching fluid will reach copper around holes from backside, through hole 2014-02-24 09:27 DocScrutinizer05: sure 2014-02-24 09:27 I know that 2014-02-24 09:27 and it might lift off PhRe 2014-02-24 09:28 when hole "capped" 2014-02-24 09:28 my board don't seem to mind. not sure if toner transfer adds some magical protection. in any case, the holes are not "tented" by toner 2014-02-24 09:28 I think it's maybe easiest to cover single-sided boards with photoresist on the backside 2014-02-24 09:28 maybe it's that, lifting off the resist 2014-02-24 09:28 and expose it indiscriminately 2014-02-24 09:28 wpwrak: naw, this was the board soaked in NaOH for 12 hours 2014-02-24 09:28 photoresist attachment is *excellent* 2014-02-24 09:28 urgh :) 2014-02-24 09:29 12h was probably excessive, but 10 min doesn't cut it for sure 2014-02-24 09:29 the fluid will apply forces when entering the hole and hiting the PhRe membrane capping the holes 2014-02-24 09:29 this can lift off PhRe 2014-02-24 09:29 wpwrak: see: http://lab.whitequark.org/images/thumbnails/c71d286ce61f4981c05cc826576acfa59d5e36a2.jpeg 2014-02-24 09:30 board on right: really clean. board on left: not so 2014-02-24 09:30 also PCB copper isn't exactly smooth and plane anymore, around holes 2014-02-24 09:30 DocScrutinizer05: yeah, I see; and I now look at photo closely and it seems copper edge penetrated resist 2014-02-24 09:31 I need to do something with it... 2014-02-24 09:37 whitequark: btw, the trace width seems correct within the resolution of the image. i get 253 pixels for 7*0.5 mm, which would make 0.2 mm 14.5 pixels. i measure around 15-17 pixels. also, the image resolution isn't very good. 2014-02-24 09:40 * DocScrutinizer05 wonders where been that info about etching time and under-etching 2014-02-24 09:40 might even have been about chip manufacturing 2014-02-24 09:41 and how thex manage to either get trapezoid or perpendicular walls of their traces 2014-02-24 09:41 they* 2014-02-24 09:42 there happen a few pretty non-intuitive things 2014-02-24 09:43 they can even etch inverse trapezoid, though it's mostly useless. don't ask me how they do that 2014-02-24 09:44 maybe gas protecting the material that gets etched? gas originating from etching process and moving up? 2014-02-24 09:45 hmmm 2014-02-24 09:45 no clue 2014-02-24 09:45 or thermal fluid convection, covering material way up with a film of "inert" fluid? 2014-02-24 09:46 anyway I seem to remember: the longer the etching takes, the worse the trapezoid problem 2014-02-24 09:49 http://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/157206 >>... aber man kann ja durch die schnelle Aetzgeschwindigkeit einen hoeheren Aetzfaktor (weniger Unteraetzung) erwarten und somit feinere Strukturen erzielen.<< 2014-02-24 09:51 yep, the trapezoid appears due to concurrent etching in perpendicular and parallel direction to copper 2014-02-24 09:52 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:FdDiXwGH8UkJ:http://www.ti2000.de/pub/ti2000/7.Semester/Elektroniktechnologie/Antworten%2520Elektroniktechnologie.doc%2BPCB+unteraetzung&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&ct=clnk 2014-02-24 09:52 >>Durch Konvektion und damit annähernd konstant gehaltenen Ätzwirkung, kann es zu größeren Unterätzungen kommen<< 2014-02-24 09:55 hmmm 2014-02-24 09:55 o.O http://www.instructables.com/id/Sponge-Ferric-Chloride-Method-Etch-Circuit-Bo/ 2014-02-24 09:56 result seems pretty poor. look at the traces they highlighted 2014-02-24 09:58 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-02-24 09:59 >>Undercutting is practically non-existent, and the resist stays in place<< 2014-02-24 10:00 it seems mainly due to the speed of process 2014-02-24 10:04 >>method I prefer to use is laser printing onto a piece of Pulsar's dextrin paper and << o.O 2014-02-24 10:07 and a certain someone even calls toner transfer *simpler* :p 2014-02-24 10:07 seems like dextrin paper is quite popular for toner transfer 2014-02-24 10:07 I think dextrin is watersoluble? 2014-02-24 10:07 ah, it's basically purified starch 2014-02-24 10:08 is it possible to use dmcrypt on the ben? 2014-02-24 10:09 expect it to be *very* slow, as ben has no hw-accelerated crypto and not a fast CPU 2014-02-24 10:10 but how to get the NAND as a block devie? 2014-02-24 10:10 device 2014-02-24 10:10 won't it be overkill? 2014-02-24 10:11 it's like using the nand "block device equivalent" with ext4 or so 2014-02-24 10:14 well, you can place a file on a NAND filesystem and use -o loop 2014-02-24 10:14 but it's not efficient and kills the NAND quicker 2014-02-24 10:14 exactly 2014-02-24 10:16 dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2014-02-24 10:23 okay, all finished: http://i.imgur.com/7z8XPO7.jpg 2014-02-24 10:24 I probably should've cleaned the board better before attaching mask 2014-02-24 10:27 * DocScrutinizer05 just pondered about replacing the photosensitive roller in laserprinter by the PCB with PhPos 2014-02-24 10:27 nice hw mod to a laserprinter 2014-02-24 10:28 basically should be pretty straight forward to design 2014-02-24 10:29 um... doesn't sounds simple to me at all 2014-02-24 10:29 first it's the wrong frequency, you'd need to redo its optics completely 2014-02-24 10:29 1) it likely uses glass -> uv-opaque 2014-02-24 10:30 2) it's all designed to handle freq it uses. others will refract in a different way thus distorting the picture 2014-02-24 10:30 so you'd need to make a custom frensel lens 2014-02-24 10:30 at least 2014-02-24 10:30 jow_lapt1p is now known as jow_laptop 2014-02-24 10:30 just rip out all unneeded gear from laserprinter. Cover photosensitive roll with a 0.2mm of rubber. move laser scanner unit a ~1mm away from the roller 2014-02-24 10:30 ooh, wrong laser color. Right 2014-02-24 10:31 though that for sure would be a cool hack 2014-02-24 10:31 :-/ 2014-02-24 10:31 a pity 2014-02-24 10:31 * DocScrutinizer05 heads out for more coffee 2014-02-24 10:32 iirc toxicity limits for coffee is about 100 cups per day 2014-02-24 10:32 have you ever came close? :D 2014-02-24 10:35 yeah once 2014-02-24 10:36 wow 2014-02-24 10:36 seriously? 2014-02-24 10:36 I created a normal coffe cup full of ultra espresso made from ~300g of coffee powder - the machine was designed to produce a whole can of coffee the espresso way, I used it for a cup 2014-02-24 10:36 felt pretty sick after drinking that 2014-02-24 10:38 I been 18 or 19 when I did that 2014-02-24 10:38 so qite a while ago 2014-02-24 10:38 quite* 2014-02-24 10:40 attribute it to my mind developing phase, according to what we discussed yesterday ;-) 2014-02-24 10:40 that's probably even more than 100 cups 2014-02-24 10:40 sure, sure 2014-02-24 10:40 I can understand doing crazy stuff, I'm just amazed at the magnitude 2014-02-24 10:40 honestly impressed 2014-02-24 10:41 yeah, me too 2014-02-24 10:41 ;-d 2014-02-24 10:41 ;-D 2014-02-24 10:42 a bit reminds me of this russian guy: http://www.sickchirpse.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Mustang-Wanted.jpg 2014-02-24 10:42 it's really amazing I'm still alive 2014-02-24 10:42 there was a gif somewhere... 2014-02-24 10:43 some guy died not so long ago after eating caffeine 2014-02-24 10:44 when I was 4 or 5, I walked from one window to the next - in the rain gutter. We lived in top floor of that building back when 2014-02-24 10:44 seems I must've been kinda natural born crazy 2014-02-24 10:45 I knew a cat who liked to jump from one window to an adjacent balcony 2014-02-24 10:45 about five times that ended with a plunge down 4 stories 2014-02-24 10:45 for me it luckily didn't ;-) 2014-02-24 10:46 that cat eventually died after five traumatic injures, ovary cancer, failed pregnancy, infection and who knows what else, when I was 19 2014-02-24 10:46 and I'm pretty sure the cat was actually older than me 2014-02-24 10:47 she was a street cat, taken in at several months. Guess she needed good genes to survive in RU :) 2014-02-24 10:47 cats have 9 lifes 2014-02-24 10:48 seems yours used up all of them finally 2014-02-24 10:49 19 is waaaay higher than usual cat life expectancy though 2014-02-24 10:50 though it is not unheard of humans who smoke, drink and generally have fun, and then live to 105 years 2014-02-24 10:50 * DocScrutinizer05 still can't let go on the laserprinter mod 2014-02-24 10:50 hm 2014-02-24 10:50 idea: correct for distortion in software 2014-02-24 10:50 just pondered that 2014-02-24 10:50 refractory distortion. you can make a grid pattern, scan it and then apply affine transform 2014-02-24 10:51 get a proper 1W blue laser instead of the IR 2014-02-24 10:51 UV laser maybe? 2014-02-24 10:52 I think there are UV semiconductor lasers 2014-02-24 10:52 waitwait, laser printers use IR lasers? 2014-02-24 10:52 also maybe worth to first check how much this effect of changed optical properties of lenses from changed color +really* kicks in 2014-02-24 10:52 whitequark: dunno 2014-02-24 10:53 I think I seen "IR-Laser" label in some manual last week(?) 2014-02-24 10:53 maybe they use red 2014-02-24 10:54 IR is cheaper and usually stronger 2014-02-24 10:54 I know of UV LEDs, but not of UV lasers 2014-02-24 10:55 ah, seems it's ongoing research as of 2013 2014-02-24 10:55 ~400nm is what I seen 2014-02-24 10:55 "Nitride semiconductors offer the potential to realize a compact UV laser source. Three approaches will be described: (1) InGaN VECSEL for frequency doubling, (2) photo-pumped AlGaN lasers (to 237 nm), and (3) AlGaN laser diodes." 2014-02-24 10:55 400nm is exactly what you need 2014-02-24 10:55 I use 395nm 2014-02-24 10:56 * DocScrutinizer05 plays with his 405nm laserpointer 2014-02-24 10:57 10mW, Class IIIb :-o 2014-02-24 10:57 that should work fine 2014-02-24 10:57 resist isn't too selective 2014-02-24 10:57 thought as much 2014-02-24 10:58 though, hmmm, UV diodes have a bit of smooth spectrum 2014-02-24 10:58 whereas lasers usually have it rather narrow (duh) 2014-02-24 10:58 I wonder if that may affect it 2014-02-24 11:00 damn! Wavelength: 445nm nominal center 2014-02-24 11:01 http://www.wickedlasers.com/arctic 2014-02-24 11:01 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 11:02 wolfspra1l has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 11:02 wolfspraul has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-02-24 11:05 I'd still test it 2014-02-24 11:05 do you have resist? 2014-02-24 11:05 my resist is http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00B0Z8AZ6 and LEDs http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001RJQR3M 2014-02-24 11:06 beam distance 0.25lux: 55 km :-D 2014-02-24 11:06 dandon has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 11:07 I don't own that 445nm laser 2014-02-24 11:09 oooh I've found very simple way to make good stencils out of PET film 2014-02-24 11:10 I just need to cover it with masking tape 2014-02-24 11:10 then crank up feedrate and it comes pretty amazing with my sturdy engraving bits 2014-02-24 11:10 no fragile .2mm endmills 2014-02-24 11:11 I've *no idea* how to take pictures of holes in transparent film 2014-02-24 11:11 LOL 2014-02-24 11:13 smth like http://i.imgur.com/eC0K9K6.jpg 2014-02-24 11:14 there's 1-2 holes which are in focus 2014-02-24 11:14 http://www.wickedlasers.com/lunar Wavelength: 405nm 2014-02-24 11:14 valhalla has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 11:15 ask them to test lasers on resist? 2014-02-24 11:17 dunno. 2014-02-24 11:17 valhalla_ has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 2014-02-24 11:17 anyway that lunar has beam divergence 0.7mRad, the 445nm has 1.5mRad 2014-02-24 11:18 (stencil) niiiice 2014-02-24 11:19 masking tape is *great*, it just gets all the gore from tool 2014-02-24 11:19 and absorbs 2014-02-24 11:19 you might want to reduce spindle RPM 2014-02-24 11:20 plastic is nasty 2014-02-24 11:20 it's pretty low already. 6k according to my calculations 2014-02-24 11:20 in no way verified in practice 2014-02-24 11:21 clue a piece of scotch tape to the shaft of tooling bit, listen to it knocking against a steady object, guess frequency 2014-02-24 11:21 glue* 2014-02-24 11:21 or stick, even 2014-02-24 11:22 or just make the IR measurement thing 2014-02-24 11:22 since I want spindle speed display anyway 2014-02-24 11:23 and possibly feedback but not sure if that can work 2014-02-24 11:23 RPM of course massively depends on your tool, but e.g. for "normal" drills (a few mm dia) you want to use RPM of maybe 600 2014-02-24 11:23 well... normally this thing spins up to 20k rpm 2014-02-24 11:23 sure, which is fine for cutting hard stuff 2014-02-24 11:23 this corresponds to feedrate of about 700-800mm/s with slotting say with an 1mm TiAlN endmill 2014-02-24 11:23 not so for elastic thermoplast 2014-02-24 11:24 right 2014-02-24 11:24 you don't want that stuff to melt under your tool 2014-02-24 11:24 looking at it, doesnt seem like it melts 2014-02-24 11:25 oooh, I think another factor is I use good film this time 2014-02-24 11:25 I see tiny indications that it started partially to melt 2014-02-24 11:25 previous film was shit and melted at very low t° as you can remember 2014-02-24 11:25 but that might be a misconception 2014-02-24 11:26 hard to tell from that photo 2014-02-24 11:26 yeah, I'll try to take a better one later 2014-02-24 11:26 just saying - try to use low RPM with plastic 2014-02-24 11:26 btw, how bad is expired solder paste? this one should've been used in 2011 and wasn't stored in fridge 2014-02-24 11:26 PbSn 2014-02-24 11:27 when result sucks, think of RPM 2014-02-24 11:27 hygroscopic 2014-02-24 11:27 sealed package 2014-02-24 11:27 a syringe used in industrial machines I guess 2014-02-24 11:27 prolly irrelevant for home usage 2014-02-24 11:28 I dunno if some chemical reaction deactivates flux components over time, in paste 2014-02-24 11:31 http://i.imgur.com/PqBvpPH.jpg 2014-02-24 11:31 seems ok? 2014-02-24 11:35 niiiiice 2014-02-24 11:37 component placement markers would've been handy maybe 2014-02-24 11:38 might get away with it for that particular PCB 2014-02-24 11:38 without it, rather 2014-02-24 11:39 though for placing the atmel it's still a bit tricky without guiding markers 2014-02-24 11:40 well... I wonder how can I do 'silkscreen' 2014-02-24 11:40 if in a pinch, write into copper 2014-02-24 11:43 http://i.imgur.com/g6IyLE3.jpg 2014-02-24 11:45 are you lightnig fast or just cheating? 2014-02-24 11:45 fast 2014-02-24 11:45 I post pictures strictly as I take them :) 2014-02-24 11:46 atmel pads lft upper seem offset 2014-02-24 11:46 already seen offset in paste stencil 2014-02-24 11:47 not quite, this chip has bent pins, I missed it 2014-02-24 11:47 ooh 2014-02-24 11:47 however it has good contact still 2014-02-24 11:48 sure 2014-02-24 11:48 okay... need to populate thru-hole and hook up a programmer 2014-02-24 11:48 and that's all! 2014-02-24 11:49 PCBA almost hides the bumpy ugly traces :-) 2014-02-24 11:49 I started making this PCB almost exactly 5 hours ago 2014-02-24 11:49 so that's pretty nice RTT 2014-02-24 11:49 indeed, and quite shiny result 2014-02-24 11:50 if I figure a way to make silkscreen, it would be basically just like factory stuff 2014-02-24 11:50 ... and I think I just thought of a way to make it 2014-02-24 11:50 some chinese crap can go weep in a dark corner, but they gonna sell their stuff nevertheless 2014-02-24 11:50 (chinese crap) not sure what was this remark about 2014-02-24 11:50 toner transfer with color toner? 2014-02-24 11:51 (toner transfer) color laser printer costs a fortune, and just to print white toner?... meh 2014-02-24 11:51 (chinese crap) was about some boards from china that look really ugly compared to yours 2014-02-24 11:51 (china) so I'm not the lowest link in food chain. encouraging :) 2014-02-24 11:52 (silkscreen) well, I could just use... silkscreen! 2014-02-24 11:52 yellow toner, b&w printer 2014-02-24 11:52 problem with toner is, it's not really heat-resistant, scratches easily, doesnt like solder/flux and all that 2014-02-24 11:52 same concerns about "solder mask" out of toner 2014-02-24 11:52 right 2014-02-24 11:53 soooo 2014-02-24 11:53 so, silkscreen. I need to find a sheet of something with tiny holes or maybe woven 2014-02-24 11:53 then I can just use my existing resist, run it all through laminator. when heated, resist basically flows like a viscous liquid 2014-02-24 11:53 so it will flow into those holes 2014-02-24 11:53 silk maybe ;-) 2014-02-24 11:53 wont survive 120°C laminating 2014-02-24 11:54 err, laminate? 2014-02-24 11:54 well, attaching resist 2014-02-24 11:54 with heat? 2014-02-24 11:54 yep. I don't want to bother with liquid resist, it's quite horrible to use. dries for a long time, hard to get nice layer, nasty chemicals 2014-02-24 11:54 I guess I have no idea what you're planning 2014-02-24 11:55 well... like regular silkscreen, with some modern polymer instead of "silk" (neoprene?) and dry film resist pushed into matrix with my laminator 2014-02-24 11:55 then I expose and develop it, then like in regular silkscreen, I push white ink through holes 2014-02-24 11:55 what the heck is dry film resist? 2014-02-24 11:55 eh?! 2014-02-24 11:55 I'm telling you, I use this resist: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00B0Z8AZ6/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 2014-02-24 11:55 it comes in sheets 2014-02-24 11:56 ooh 2014-02-24 11:56 I see what you mean 2014-02-24 11:56 a sheet of resist, covered by PET film on one side, polyolefin on another 2014-02-24 11:56 you peel polyolefin, apply to PCB, run it through laminator 2014-02-24 11:56 so resist will melt and attach very tightly 2014-02-24 11:56 why don't you use a stencil? 2014-02-24 11:56 ... genius 2014-02-24 11:57 thank you 2014-02-24 11:57 lol 2014-02-24 11:58 yeah I'd need a thinner engraver. but yeah that should work 2014-02-24 11:58 and I can buy acrylic paint in like a hobby store next to my house 2014-02-24 11:58 that is amazing, I'm so going to do it today 2014-02-24 11:58 I rather wonder which varnish you wanna use 2014-02-24 11:58 varnish? 2014-02-24 11:58 white paint 2014-02-24 11:58 think acrylic would be fine 2014-02-24 11:59 should work 2014-02-24 11:59 http://www.hitempcoatings.com/coatings/HT500V.html this one says it's stable up to 464°C 2014-02-24 11:59 so regular one would likely sustain half of that, right? 2014-02-24 11:59 good enough 2014-02-24 12:01 gah! I got pb-free solder on my iron, now can't use it with low temperature :/ 2014-02-24 12:01 damn rohs 2014-02-24 12:01 that thing won't even come off 2014-02-24 12:02 Color stability to 500°F (260°C) 2014-02-24 12:03 I think I heard you shouldn't use normal tips for Pb-free 2014-02-24 12:03 Pb-free seems to eat tips 2014-02-24 12:03 !! 2014-02-24 12:04 "diluting" it with 60/40 should work 2014-02-24 12:04 yeah it did 2014-02-24 12:05 http://imgur.com/UPyt7Sk 2014-02-24 12:07 ... I don't have any AA batteries! damn. 2014-02-24 12:17 realized I own an adjustable psu 2014-02-24 12:22 apelete: http://imgur.com/UPyt7Sk :-) 2014-02-24 12:23 hmm? 2014-02-24 12:23 also said PSU is severely overheated to point where it won't turn on, so I'll write a test program meanwhile 2014-02-24 12:23 PSU overheated? 2014-02-24 12:24 how comes? 2014-02-24 12:24 yeah, I guess--it's really hot at the bottom and doesn't want to turn on 2014-02-24 12:24 not "I'm burned" hot but "this shouldn't be THAT hot" hot 2014-02-24 12:24 it was plugged into CNC control block which draws 1.5A@30V while *idle* 2014-02-24 12:24 for a hour 2014-02-24 12:25 ooh 2014-02-24 12:25 45W for nuttin is a tad... steep 2014-02-24 12:25 also wtf, X stepper is warm but Y and Z aren't 2014-02-24 12:25 I smell a broken stepper board... somehow 2014-02-24 12:25 unless you keep steppers at hold 2014-02-24 12:26 seems like it just dumps current into X stepper for some absurd reason 2014-02-24 12:26 it sure as hell shouldn't treat it specially 2014-02-24 12:26 yeah 2014-02-24 12:26 prolly some of the stepper board components are fried. more blind diagnostics :/ 2014-02-24 12:27 dang 2014-02-24 12:27 first check input 2014-02-24 12:27 mm, input is DIR+STEP 2014-02-24 12:27 make sure it's not your PC driving shit to the controller 2014-02-24 12:27 so it's idle, then there's nothing on STEP 2014-02-24 12:28 and DIR 2014-02-24 12:28 a high impedance speaker (piezo) is a really handy tool for such checks 2014-02-24 12:29 or a scope :) 2014-02-24 12:29 when you don't have a scope hand heck, I debugged my first selfmade computer with a piezo earphone and an LED 2014-02-24 12:29 hardcore :D 2014-02-24 12:29 DocScrutinizer05: nice shot, very clean soldering. I'll get there someday...eventually 2014-02-24 12:30 apelete: I just thought you have a nice example how to solder wires to pads there 2014-02-24 12:30 apelete: sarcasm? picture is blurry as hell 2014-02-24 12:31 I'll get you a better one in a minute 2014-02-24 12:31 don't even dream of getting rest of soldering like whitequark did, he's using solderpase and stencil 2014-02-24 12:31 *g* 2014-02-24 12:31 whitequark: not sarcasm, wishful thinking ;-) 2014-02-24 12:31 DocScrutinizer05: are the wires hand soldered ? 2014-02-24 12:32 yes 2014-02-24 12:32 wow 2014-02-24 12:32 :-) 2014-02-24 12:32 I don't think whitequark managed to solder them any other way ;-) 2014-02-24 12:33 think I could manage it with my feet, after some practice 2014-02-24 12:33 apelete: now *this* is a nice picture: http://i.imgur.com/HqqMcsZ.jpg 2014-02-24 12:34 yeah, and an excellent tutorial "how to solder wires to pads" 2014-02-24 12:34 whitequark: what kind of techniques and tools are you using to achieve that ? 2014-02-24 12:34 apelete: can you ask more specifically? 2014-02-24 12:35 I mean, I could start to explain one by one but that'll take a few hours 2014-02-24 12:35 do you mean those wires? 2014-02-24 12:36 well, I can tell you're most likely right-handed 2014-02-24 12:36 looks like the strand is comforatably sitting in the drop of tin, and the rubber is not even burned near the end of the strand 2014-02-24 12:37 the result of good tools and material and right temperature 2014-02-24 12:37 apelete: so... the wire was pre-tinned, it's a lead of a battery holder. however if you tin it very quickly and with iron at say 190°C, you can manage to have rubber intact 2014-02-24 12:37 the PCB pads were pre-tinned too, here it was chemical tinning process. A factory-made PCB would have it pretinned or with some other good coating. A self-made PCB you really need to tin yourself well 2014-02-24 12:38 you always should tin the pad, then just reflow wire to it 2014-02-24 12:38 then I just dropped a small drop of PbSn 60/40 solder there, so it made a nice small bulge 2014-02-24 12:38 I called it bead 2014-02-24 12:38 then I held the wire on top of that bulge and heated it with iron for no more than 1-2s 2014-02-24 12:39 my words :-D 2014-02-24 12:39 in this case I had iron turned up to almost 300°C 2014-02-24 12:39 could you tell me more about the tinning process for the pads, what are you calling "chemical tinning process" ? 2014-02-24 12:39 I bought a liquid called "liquid tin" locally, it's some salt of tin according to label 2014-02-24 12:39 apelete: you don't want to know about that - now 2014-02-24 12:40 I put the well-cleaned board into it for 30 minutes--again according to label--and tin laye grows on exposed copper 2014-02-24 12:40 *layer 2014-02-24 12:40 it's advanced stuff you don't need 2014-02-24 12:40 it looks a bit ewww (dark grey), but solder attaches to it really really well 2014-02-24 12:40 nothing flux and good solder wire couldn't do 2014-02-24 12:40 ^ that. I used to use RMA flux and PbSn solder before 2014-02-24 12:41 it's more work and you have to clean the flux, but you'll be 100% fine with that 2014-02-24 12:41 ack 2014-02-24 12:41 whitequark: okay, so once you have your drop of solder on the pad, you just push the wire into it with the iron ? 2014-02-24 12:41 one thing to remember: don't be greedy on flux 2014-02-24 12:41 better to drown board in flux than put not enough 2014-02-24 12:41 don't think 2drop" - that's missleading 2014-02-24 12:41 apelete: I placed the wire *on top* of the bead, then gently pushed it down with my fingers 2014-02-24 12:42 while holding 2014-02-24 12:42 then I started to heat it and when solder begins to flow to the wire due to surface tension--I remove iron 2014-02-24 12:42 and wait several seconds to let solder solidify 2014-02-24 12:42 you really mustn't move the wire immediately after removing iron or you'll get bad contact 2014-02-24 12:42 this is important! don't move things while solder curing! 2014-02-24 12:43 not a micron 2014-02-24 12:43 *nod* 2014-02-24 12:44 I think I need practice and a magnifying glass to see things closeup 2014-02-24 12:44 thus you usually prefer a setup where you don't need to *hold* the wire (or other component). Humans can't NOT move 2014-02-24 12:44 it needs extreme practice to solder a wire you#re holding by hand 2014-02-24 12:45 yup, I sometimes clamp the wire with something 2014-02-24 12:45 if there's already a drop of solder on the pad and the wire is tinned, I should only need two hands: one holding the iron, and other pushing the wire 2014-02-24 12:45 right ? 2014-02-24 12:45 I'd almost say it's impossible to do it right 2014-02-24 12:45 DocScrutinizer05: that's a bit exaggerated... 2014-02-24 12:46 you need flux and a clamp so the wire stays on top of bead without your hand holding it 2014-02-24 12:46 so you basically should get the job done using only one hand 2014-02-24 12:47 trying to work two-handed is not exactly simple 2014-02-24 12:47 DocScrutinizer05: I actually needed three hands yesterday... 2014-02-24 12:47 then you can't achieve a good solder point 2014-02-24 12:48 nobody can, in that situation 2014-02-24 12:48 need this: http://a.tgcdn.net/images/products/zoom/third_hand_parts_holder.jpg 2014-02-24 12:48 I have exactly that thing as you can see 2014-02-24 12:48 yup, I think I also have exactly this 2014-02-24 12:48 those things many times don't really help either. if the wire is very flexible, you can't push it down properly with this 2014-02-24 12:49 haven't used it for quite a while 2014-02-24 12:49 yes, was thinking about buying something similar 2014-02-24 12:49 wpwrak: that's the trick 2014-02-24 12:49 wpwrak is right about flexible wire. also that may not be convenient to hold by hand, since it can get hot very quickly 2014-02-24 12:49 so, I use curved tweezers for that 2014-02-24 12:49 wtf, PSU still won't come on 2014-02-24 12:50 borked 2014-02-24 12:50 :-/ 2014-02-24 12:50 i've given up on these critters and only use them when i'm running out of hands. the solder joints still seem to be stable enough :) 2014-02-24 12:50 DocScrutinizer05: ... no 2014-02-24 12:50 wpwrak: with years of practice... 2014-02-24 12:50 borked is the cable 2014-02-24 12:50 somehow the PSU has a weird variant of standard PC 3-prong connector 2014-02-24 12:51 which accepts about half of cables I own 2014-02-24 12:51 tweezers ! that would have help yesterday, discovered that my fingers were way too big ;-) 2014-02-24 12:51 * DocScrutinizer05 has roundabout 20 tweezers 2014-02-24 12:51 all shapes and types 2014-02-24 12:52 some of them cost 20 bucks 2014-02-24 12:52 other 20 a buck 2014-02-24 12:52 both work, in the particular case where they fit 2014-02-24 12:54 I found a number of contraptions quite useful, where you solder two of those crocodile clamps to the ends of a 1.5mm^2 copper wire, and bend that thing the way you need 2014-02-24 12:55 clamp one croc to the PCB edge, other end holding wire to solder 2014-02-24 12:55 mad useful 2014-02-24 12:56 also fine to make short connections 2014-02-24 12:56 like: attach a LED+resistor to a 9V block, or the like 2014-02-24 12:56 3..10cm length of wire are fine 2014-02-24 12:57 usually 5cm is what I like best 2014-02-24 12:58 guys guys http://i.imgur.com/BkOR3ke.jpg 2014-02-24 12:58 \o/ 2014-02-24 13:00 nice 2014-02-24 13:00 what's that monster in the background? 2014-02-24 13:00 wpwrak: left of trnaformer 2014-02-24 13:00 oops 2014-02-24 13:00 soldering station 2014-02-24 13:00 ETAB 2014-02-24 13:00 o.O 2014-02-24 13:00 http://www.rlocman.ru/i/Image/2009/04/10/16.jpg 2014-02-24 13:01 with a quite massive hose? 2014-02-24 13:01 hot ai 2014-02-24 13:01 *air 2014-02-24 13:01 mhm 2014-02-24 13:01 the remote fan variant 2014-02-24 13:01 mine has fan in hand piece 2014-02-24 13:02 handpiece a tad larger, no hose 2014-02-24 13:02 ah 2014-02-24 13:03 ATTEN 858D 2014-02-24 13:05 http://www.electronic-products-design.com/geek-area/great-tools/electronic-assembly/atten-858d-smd-hot-air-rework-station-solder 2014-02-24 13:06 that URL... /geek-area/great-tools/ :D 2014-02-24 13:06 hah, Duratool – D01841 has exactly same handpiece as mine 2014-02-24 13:07 >>Get over the price concern, it is too cheap but it does what it says on the tin and it does it well!<< ;-P 2014-02-24 13:07 lol 2014-02-24 13:09 and of course again the inevitable EEVblog: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vva2t21sOAs 2014-02-24 13:14 >>WARNING: One unit has been found to have been dangerously mis-wired:<< LOL, well that's what you get from incredibly cheap chinese stuff 2014-02-24 13:17 okay... hm, what to do for the rest of today. I think I need to add pcb-gcode generator for silkscreen and try the acrylic paint idea 2014-02-24 13:19 I think you want to check your CNC controller, no? 2014-02-24 13:19 oooh right, thanks, that's a good idea 2014-02-24 13:19 still I'm off to get some food and paint. can't buy 'em at 1AM 2014-02-24 13:20 that's also a good idea, should do similar 2014-02-24 13:22 oooh right, no shower until those dudes finished their epoxy mess in our sewage 2014-02-24 13:22 :-S 2014-02-24 13:23 now that's a convenient excuse ;-) 2014-02-24 13:27 it actually sucks 2014-02-24 13:29 no shit 2014-02-24 13:32 Jay7x has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 13:32 I've been told they only have to get 5 leaks done today, so can't take much longer 2014-02-24 13:32 Thu and Fr they were busy whole day 2014-02-24 13:32 porchao has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 13:35 motley_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 13:40 Jay7 has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-24 13:40 porchaso0 has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-24 13:40 motley has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-24 13:40 lindi- has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-24 13:40 woakas1 has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-24 13:41 GRRRRR 2014-02-24 13:46 lindi- has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 13:47 woakas1 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 13:47 FDCX has quit [Excess Flood] 2014-02-24 13:48 FDCX has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 13:52 shall I get this one http://www.st.com/web/catalog/tools/FM116/SC959/SS1532/LN1847/PF260002 or that one http://www.st.com/web/catalog/tools/FM116/SC959/SS1532/LN1847/PF260000 ? 2014-02-24 13:53 it#s quite strange they don't give any links to true spec sheets of the dang MCU 2014-02-24 13:54 F4 is a lot more powerful than L1 2014-02-24 13:55 btw, i'm not sure how well these boards play with open tools. you have that st-link that may be an obstacle. 2014-02-24 13:58 I don't care, it's for free 2014-02-24 13:58 I'll get the F4 then 2014-02-24 13:59 the "term and conditions" is an empty webpage ;-P 2014-02-24 13:59 the chips hmm, the F4 should have two USB ports. i don't see them ... 2014-02-24 13:59 meh 2014-02-24 14:01 the F4's boot ROM supports DFU. so that's a convenient way for flashing firmware. you also need a reset button and a way to switch the boot mode selection. 2014-02-24 14:04 FUCKIT! "Max quantity reached. Please contact your distributor" 2014-02-24 14:04 shouldn't waste my time on such crap 2014-02-24 14:05 ;-) 2014-02-24 14:05 or should've filled the form 5 days ago, when I first opened the page 2014-02-24 14:06 it's some weird design for the arduinobotomized anyway 2014-02-24 14:06 meh, 10 USD 2014-02-24 14:07 I probably should feel grateful that this thing doesn't clutter my flat 2014-02-24 14:07 if you want fun and something to relax with from the hard work on neo900, why not play with, say y-box ? also has a nice little arm, and even an rf chip 2014-02-24 14:08 no time for such stuff 2014-02-24 14:08 wpwrak: I wrote adapter for st-link 2014-02-24 14:08 they work you too hard in the neo900 mines, do they ? :) 2014-02-24 14:08 http://github.com/texane/stlink is its current place 2014-02-24 14:08 DocScrutinizer05: & 2014-02-24 14:08 DocScrutinizer05: ^* 2014-02-24 14:09 L1 has really powerful power saving stuff. you can tweak consumption on an incredibly low level, taking it overall to dozens of nA 2014-02-24 14:09 :nod: but the thing went off my radar 5 min ago 2014-02-24 14:09 F4 is just a lot of beef and relatively simple interface 2014-02-24 14:09 do note that ST chips can have nasty silicon bugs 2014-02-24 14:09 I was just "let's pick it when it's for free" 2014-02-24 14:09 ah sure 2014-02-24 14:10 overall ST is kinda like Atmel but modern 2014-02-24 14:10 I like them, but for most complex and demanding tasks you'd want something else maybe 2014-02-24 14:10 TI? 2014-02-24 14:10 (stlink) okay, that looks reasonable now 2014-02-24 14:10 it has fw upload and incircuit debug btw 2014-02-24 14:10 ok, now to the ticket 2014-02-24 14:10 so it's really convenient 2014-02-24 14:11 maybe that's still for free 2014-02-24 14:18 else talk to your dealer, err, distributor :) they can generally sneak you in 2014-02-24 14:21 nah, home bonus prolly 2014-02-24 14:24 Vielen Dank für Ihre Registrierung! 2014-02-24 14:24 Eine Bestätigungs-E-Mail wurde Ihnen soeben zugesandt. 2014-02-24 14:24 Ihr(e) E-Ticket(s) befindet/befinden sich im Anhang zu dieser E-Mail. 2014-02-24 14:26 now when they also had a link back to the embeddedworld website 2014-02-24 14:26 ffs 2014-02-24 14:27 needs google to find http://www.embedded-world.de/en/ 2014-02-24 14:29 I'll see you there :) 2014-02-24 15:01 kristian1aul has quit [Quit: Reconnecting] 2014-02-24 15:01 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 15:02 prolly only when we fix a time and location 2014-02-24 15:10 okay, got some paint 2014-02-24 15:11 consultant woman was probably quite surprised when I told "I want white acrylic paint with hi-temp resistance for PCB silkscreening" 2014-02-24 15:12 still she pointed me to "regular" TiO2/ZnO based ink -- I took TiO2 'cause ZnO can be quite reactive, e.g. with trace amounts of H2S it becomes black 2014-02-24 15:12 and to some crap for painting on ceramic, labelled stable at 150°C for 15 min 2014-02-24 15:12 however that last thing is quite liquid so I may have a hard time getting it through silkscreen 2014-02-24 15:13 also, expensive: $1 per 15ml 2014-02-24 15:22 rz2k has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-02-24 15:54 FDCX has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2014-02-24 16:16 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 16:24 wolfspra1l has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2014-02-24 16:26 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 16:57 FDCX has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 17:00 woakas1 has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-24 17:00 Jay7x has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-24 17:00 jow_laptop has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-24 17:00 motley_ has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-24 17:00 valhalla has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-24 17:00 ornoterm1s has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-24 17:00 apelete has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-24 17:00 newcup has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-24 17:00 shevek has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-24 17:00 wpwrak has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-24 17:00 mth has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-24 17:00 roh has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-24 17:05 motley_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 17:05 apelete has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 17:05 ornoterm1s has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 17:05 mth has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 17:05 wpwrak has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 17:05 valhalla has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 17:05 roh has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 17:05 shevek has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 17:05 newcup has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 17:06 woakas1 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 17:06 jow_laptop has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 17:06 Jay7x has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 17:11 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 17:13 pcercuei has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-02-24 17:16 side note: I'm really enjoying proper stencils, placing solder paste used to be such a horrible PITA for me, I hated it 2014-02-24 17:16 and now it's done in less than a minute 2014-02-24 17:16 not to mention there's no solder bridges 2014-02-24 17:19 * DocScrutinizer05 hopes for proper howto 2014-02-24 17:20 even video maybe 2014-02-24 17:20 DocScrutinizer05: I'm absolutely going to describe the whole process in excruciating detail 2014-02-24 17:20 :-) 2014-02-24 17:20 all materials, precise instructions, photos of every step and such 2014-02-24 17:21 that's why I got myself this nice camera and so. 2014-02-24 17:21 but first I want to a) debug the shit I still have broken (etching mainly) 2014-02-24 17:21 the camera is really nice 2014-02-24 17:21 b) get to two-side PCBs with throughhole plating 2014-02-24 17:21 makes good macro shots 2014-02-24 17:21 well I paid almost $300 for this macro lens 2014-02-24 17:21 no doubt it makes good macro shots! 2014-02-24 17:21 aaah# 2014-02-24 17:22 and roughly same sum for camera and a tripod 2014-02-24 17:22 good tripod is absolutely *required* for good macro shots 2014-02-24 17:22 * DocScrutinizer05 wonders how and which lens to attach to his fuji XQ1 2014-02-24 17:23 it doesn't have changeable optics 2014-02-24 17:23 that's why "how" 2014-02-24 17:23 my one has this: https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRdK4AvG6az6yZ1L1Fx9kyqD_oBqUye4E0WDuxbfUuc0J5x42NJ 2014-02-24 17:24 I *think* you can't stack optics like that and get good results. but I may well be very wrong. 2014-02-24 17:24 (can't) due to stuff like aspherical correction your camera implicitly does (it doesn't give you raw files, rather with a huge amount of postprocessing) 2014-02-24 17:24 chromatic aberration too 2014-02-24 17:24 I should try scotch tape and some of that http://www.lupengigant.de/Uhrmacherlupen/Uhrmacherlupe-10x-Optoview 2014-02-24 17:25 for example "raw" shots my one does have a mild sort of "fisheye" effect 2014-02-24 17:25 it then can correct that itself or leave to you 2014-02-24 17:26 that's for human eyes right? 2014-02-24 17:26 yep 2014-02-24 17:26 well... you surely can try. but I bet you won't get good results that way, since see above 2014-02-24 17:26 "good" is relative 2014-02-24 17:26 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2014-02-24 17:26 for sure worse than yours 2014-02-24 17:27 but maybe better than without 2014-02-24 17:27 mhm. worth a try 2014-02-24 17:27 okay, a $1M question: how the fuck am I supposed to debug my CNC stepper board, without even a scope? 2014-02-24 17:28 I have absolutely no clue what may cause that 2014-02-24 17:28 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 17:28 actually I already did it with N900 cam. but the effect was not really noticeable 2014-02-24 17:28 hm, idea #1: switch X and Y motors, figure out if it's heating up due to motor or driver 2014-02-24 17:29 first idea, probe voltage on all pins of all motors 2014-02-24 17:29 (N900) N900 has entirely different optics altogether... and the smaller sensor you make, the crappier picture you get 2014-02-24 17:29 that I can do 2014-02-24 17:30 the fuck with XQ1: when I use optical zoom, I instantly have to move away 50cm from object 2014-02-24 17:30 in MACRO 2014-02-24 17:31 so no matter how much I zoom in, it is 100% compensated by focus range going away from cam 2014-02-24 17:31 "macro" 2014-02-24 17:31 real macro needs different optics, all that can do is switch some software mode bullshit 2014-02-24 17:31 ooh? 2014-02-24 17:32 you're sure? 2014-02-24 17:32 well, think about it: two things camera can vary about optics, focus distance and zoom 2014-02-24 17:32 what exactly would a "macro" mode achieve, given you control zoom entirely yourself? 2014-02-24 17:32 it just tells autofocus software "focus at shit near you" 2014-02-24 17:33 possibly 2014-02-24 17:33 and *maybe* adds some digital postprocessing, which is as likely to screw picture up as to make it better 2014-02-24 17:33 but probably not even that 2014-02-24 17:34 anyway min focus dist jumping from 3cm to 50cm when I zoom *2 is insane 2014-02-24 17:34 I've considered a camera like yours but was talked about it by knowledgeable people 2014-02-24 17:34 and I guess they were 100% right 2014-02-24 17:34 *talked out of it 2014-02-24 17:35 I haven't picked that one 2014-02-24 17:39 gift? 2014-02-24 17:40 donation 2014-02-24 17:40 so, yes 2014-02-24 17:48 * whitequark randomly pokes machine 2014-02-24 17:48 driver definitely exhibits constant-current behavior. if I lower supply voltage, current rists 2014-02-24 17:48 *rises 2014-02-24 17:52 sorry what? 2014-02-24 17:53 that's constant-power then 2014-02-24 17:53 unless you mean current in motor 2014-02-24 17:54 current in motor, ofc 2014-02-24 17:54 that's what you can set with this IC 2014-02-24 17:54 when that stays constant on constant voltage, then it is constant power 2014-02-24 17:54 TB6560AHQ 2014-02-24 17:54 yep, every stepper controller using this 2014-02-24 17:54 cnczone really hates them for some reason 2014-02-24 17:55 are they particularly shitty? 2014-02-24 17:55 seem fine to me 2014-02-24 17:56 okay... interesting observation 2014-02-24 17:56 I was disconnecting motors from the stepper board, one by one, and watching current 2014-02-24 17:56 idle consumption now is 330mA. disconnecting Y or Z lowered it by 40mA 2014-02-24 17:57 however disconnecting X lowers it by whole 200mA *and* the board stops that annoying high-pitched squeak 2014-02-24 17:57 you know what I'm talking about 2014-02-24 17:57 so X has 140mA of idle current more sunk into it. I wonder why. 2014-02-24 17:58 connecting Y motor in X socket makes it sink 200mA into Y motor, so the motor is fine 2014-02-24 18:01 sure 2014-02-24 18:01 the chip is kinda incorrectly set 2014-02-24 18:01 or defective 2014-02-24 18:01 I wonder wtf emits that annoying noise 2014-02-24 18:01 there's no inductors on board 2014-02-24 18:02 well, there's one, but it's not in the path used by motors 2014-02-24 18:02 err, I can't answer that, I dunno the board. ERR I do, it#s the choke 2014-02-24 18:02 the choke is in the 5V path providing logic supply 2014-02-24 18:02 hmmm 2014-02-24 18:02 the only choke ever present in entire machine 2014-02-24 18:02 x5r x7r caps? 2014-02-24 18:03 they are known to act piezo 2014-02-24 18:03 doesn't look like any are present 2014-02-24 18:03 ohhh wait 2014-02-24 18:03 I think it's the motor itself 2014-02-24 18:03 makes a lot of sense 2014-02-24 18:03 if you listen closely it emits some horrible low-pitched noise too 2014-02-24 18:04 and while it doesn't sound like it emits that ultrasound, high-pitched noise is notoriously hard to locate accurately 2014-02-24 18:04 use a tube 2014-02-24 18:04 sometimes helps 2014-02-24 18:05 one ear and tube 2014-02-24 18:05 then just go for loudness of noise 2014-02-24 18:05 oh actually, Y motor emits that noise too, only way quieter 2014-02-24 18:05 mhm 2014-02-24 18:06 I think it#s normal buck comverter 2014-02-24 18:06 oh? 2014-02-24 18:06 "step down" 2014-02-24 18:06 http://lab.whitequark.org/images/3020t/stepper-board-top.jpeg 2014-02-24 18:06 choke and thing on right is a buck converter yeah 2014-02-24 18:06 but it only provides logic supply for discrete stuff on board and stepper drivers 2014-02-24 18:06 not motor supply 2014-02-24 18:06 the TB6560AHQ is using PWM to adjust the current thru motor 2014-02-24 18:07 oooh 2014-02-24 18:07 got it 2014-02-24 18:08 usually the current should ramp up when motor spins, and when it stops the current gets reduced to so called "hold current" that keeps motor on position 2014-02-24 18:08 wtf. look at that board, I just noticed: the traces to three supposedly identical driver circuits are all different width 2014-02-24 18:08 and its basically random 2014-02-24 18:08 so low noise might mean it isn#t actually stopped but constantly stepping back and forth 2014-02-24 18:09 (back and forth) that I could feel as vibration of the plastic handle attached to its axis, no? and axis is completely still 2014-02-24 18:09 I think that's just PWM of hold current making the windings vibrate 2014-02-24 18:10 if it's one microstep, I doubt you could feel it 2014-02-24 18:11 ok. I'm entirely lost. if I unplug either X *or* Y motors, the high-pitched noise stops 2014-02-24 18:12 otoh X motor always emits low-pitched noise regardless of channel it's plugged in 2014-02-24 18:12 actually, all 3 channels make motors emit their own unique kinds of noise 2014-02-24 18:12 recognizable by ear 2014-02-24 18:13 low-pitched noise that is 2014-02-24 18:13 you won't get anywhere without a scope, friend ;-) 2014-02-24 18:13 :( 2014-02-24 18:14 hm, lemme check if anyone sells worthwile stuff locally 2014-02-24 18:14 oh god it's like 1970s all over again 2014-02-24 18:14 on the bright side: for your special problem your PC's audiocard makes for a perfect dual chan scope 2014-02-24 18:15 tektronix 2445 2014-02-24 18:15 almost new and working, for $422 2014-02-24 18:16 sounds perfect 2014-02-24 18:16 analog, 4-chan, 150mhz 2014-02-24 18:17 http://www.mit.edu/~jhawk/tek2445.pdf 2014-02-24 18:18 this been a damn good scope back when 2014-02-24 18:19 analog though 2014-02-24 18:19 so... no memory, no data export 2014-02-24 18:19 makes me a bit sad 2014-02-24 18:24 meh, get a good anaol scope, you'll love it 2014-02-24 18:24 analog* 2014-02-24 18:24 storage scope is luxury, but usually comes with downsides 2014-02-24 18:24 maybe I should shell out a bit more for tek tds520c 2014-02-24 18:25 500mhz, 1GS/s, 250ks memory 2014-02-24 18:25 for about $1k 2014-02-24 18:25 hmmm 2014-02-24 18:25 seems like it'll be sufficient for just about anything for next 20 years 2014-02-24 18:25 4 channel 2014-02-24 18:25 logic analyzer? 2014-02-24 18:26 you got that c't hacks article about scopes? 2014-02-24 18:26 wow, refurbished sells for $4756 retail 2014-02-24 18:27 http://www.testequipmentconnection.com/37404/Tektronix_TDS520C.php 2014-02-24 18:27 the 2445 is a tank, very convenient to operate 2014-02-24 18:28 while digital scopes often are extremely clumsy with an abysmal man machine interface 2014-02-24 18:28 (c't hacks article) yeah but my german's not quite well enough atm :) 2014-02-24 18:29 it also seems either of my options here is above range of that article 2014-02-24 18:29 that doesn't matter. What they tell you in that article is basics that always apply 2014-02-24 18:30 also, really? I can't figure how a 500$ is above the range of that article 2014-02-24 18:30 well, okay, prolly not 2014-02-24 18:30 I think their range been 500 to 2500 2014-02-24 18:30 for used ones 2014-02-24 18:31 so exactly your range 2014-02-24 18:31 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 18:31 for me the 422$ 2445 was a nobrainer 2014-02-24 18:32 unless i had a 3k to burn for fun 2014-02-24 18:33 so you much prefer it to digital scope? 2014-02-24 18:35 we do basically everything with a dso 2014-02-24 18:35 looking at tds520c I see only 3 dials 2014-02-24 18:35 smaller, lighter, faster. 2014-02-24 18:35 we still got an analog one, but never use it 2014-02-24 18:35 I'm just thinking, my typical use case for a scope is capture and then analyze in detail 2014-02-24 18:36 that can only work with digital. maybe I'm just wrong here 2014-02-24 18:36 sure, that's why you can get great analog scopes for cheap money 2014-02-24 18:36 whitequark: get a digital one. analog ones come for free. 2014-02-24 18:37 whitequark: your typical usecase is to analyze periodic signals. One shot storage is not as useful as it may sound. pretty hard to set up 2014-02-24 18:38 and actually an analog scpe usually is way faster, so you better see glitches in a periodic signal 2014-02-24 18:38 s/better/easier/ 2014-02-24 18:38 DocScrutinizer05 meant: "and actually an analog scpe usually is way faster, so you easier see glitches in a periodic signal" 2014-02-24 18:39 dso tries to simlate that called "digital phosphor" 2014-02-24 18:39 okay I get your point 2014-02-24 18:39 a real analog scope beats digital ones hands down on that 2014-02-24 18:40 sure, when you're used to a dso you probably can use it same way as an analog one and it gives you all a analog one can give you (though with more effort to set up stuff), plus more 2014-02-24 18:41 roh: so if you had tds1002 (60MHz 1GS/s 2ch 2k5 samples, $420) and tds520c (500MHz 1GS/s 4ch 250k, $700), what would you choose? 2014-02-24 18:41 okay, now I typed that, it sounds silly 2014-02-24 18:42 tds520c for 700$? where? 2014-02-24 18:42 http://www.avito.ru/moskva/oborudovanie_dlya_biznesa/ostsillograf_tektronix_tds520c_500_mgts_1_gs_250k_84287002 2014-02-24 18:42 25000 RUB ~ $700 2014-02-24 18:42 FDCX has quit [Excess Flood] 2014-02-24 18:42 dnag, if that things isn't fsckd up fubar, I sell my PC to get it 2014-02-24 18:43 FDCX has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 18:43 but that's simply too cheap 2014-02-24 18:43 it's refurbished apparently. vendor says you can check it and have a week to get full refund in case of any problems 2014-02-24 18:43 you're encouraged to check it, even 2014-02-24 18:43 duh! 2014-02-24 18:43 there are no probes though 2014-02-24 18:44 well 2014-02-24 18:44 they're listed separately 2014-02-24 18:44 whatcha think about it? I can prolly afford it now 2014-02-24 18:45 get it 2014-02-24 18:45 a RU friend says, "it's extremely unlikely it is actually calibrated well" 2014-02-24 18:45 still worth a look 2014-02-24 18:46 ok I'll chat with them tomorrow 2014-02-24 18:46 that's true 2014-02-24 18:46 I can't think how a scope in good condition goes for 10% of its current worth 2014-02-24 18:47 HMMMM 2014-02-24 18:47 do note they can't prolly sell it outside of RU, due to same customs regulations preventing me from buying one 2014-02-24 18:47 >>Note that it is a 'D' version, which does NOT have the electrolytic capacitor plaque problem at this age, which means this unit is very reliable.<< 2014-02-24 18:47 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tektronix-TDS-520D-Digital-Phosphor-Oscilloscope-DPO-500Mhz-2GS-s-1M-2F-2C-13-1F-/261384121466?pt=BI_Oscilloscopes&hash=item3cdbb52c7a 2014-02-24 18:49 DocScrutinizer05: according to http://www.timmestein.nl/index.php?page=tek-tds520-repair capacitur plague makes it fail POST 2014-02-24 18:49 and vendor from avito says it passes POST fine 2014-02-24 18:49 guess it's refurbished 2014-02-24 18:52 arielenter1 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 18:53 whitequark: hmm.. hard question. i guess the 1002.. even when i prefer 4 channel ones. simply because its cheaper and more portable 2014-02-24 18:53 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2014-02-24 18:54 for debugging fast stuff one needs one or 2 devices capable of handling multi-hundred mhz tho.. so.. having some devices around is never bad. 2014-02-24 18:55 we got i think one 60mhz 4 channel tek, one 500mhz 4 channel heavy tek, one 100mhz 4 channel welec and some other tek which needs fixing. and an old 20mhz ananlog hameg 2014-02-24 18:55 yeah, 520c is quite massive 2014-02-24 18:55 but I can only get one though 2014-02-24 18:55 the heavy, long and bulky. if you have the space behind your working desk.... 2014-02-24 18:57 44 cm long, 14 kg 2014-02-24 18:57 well... that takes about half of my desk 2014-02-24 18:58 by length that is. so it's kinda ok 2014-02-24 18:58 actually yeah, I have where to place it 2014-02-24 19:00 oooh 20MHz Hameg! <3 2014-02-24 19:00 :-3 2014-02-24 19:02 whitequark: don't you have shops where you can borrow equipment like that? to get a feeling what you'd like to use? 2014-02-24 19:03 they usually work with businesses only 2014-02-24 19:03 so not available for me in essence 2014-02-24 19:03 yeah :-/ 2014-02-24 19:04 honestly, the tek has too few knobs 2014-02-24 19:04 which of? 2014-02-24 19:04 we've only discussed teks :) 2014-02-24 19:05 the dso 2014-02-24 19:06 it's a damn difference to just turn a dial to adjust sensitivity, timebase, trigger, brightness 2014-02-24 19:06 mhmm 2014-02-24 19:06 or to push 3 or four buttons to set one multi purpose dial to the function you want to change 2014-02-24 19:07 you can live with it, but it's no joy 2014-02-24 19:07 but maybe i'm simply too old and thus biased 2014-02-24 19:08 I can see what you mean 2014-02-24 19:10 well... it has separate knobs for H/V scale/position, and trigger level 2014-02-24 19:11 does it? 2014-02-24 19:11 I see only 3 dials 2014-02-24 19:11 reading the manual 2014-02-24 19:12 it actually has six, didn't yet read what the biggest one does 2014-02-24 19:12 from the photo 2014-02-24 19:13 wait, isn't that a 4 channel scope? 2014-02-24 19:13 ah, it's "general purpose knob" 2014-02-24 19:13 it's "2+2" 2014-02-24 19:13 it has two proper channels and two channels with 10V limit 2014-02-24 19:14 hm? 2014-02-24 19:14 you mean no amp? 2014-02-24 19:14 you can't set more than 10V/div scale 2014-02-24 19:14 less 2014-02-24 19:14 more 2014-02-24 19:14 o.O 2014-02-24 19:15 HFour-channel acquisition—the TDS 540 offers four full-featured channels; 2014-02-24 19:15 the TDS 520 offers two full-featured channels and two channels with 2014-02-24 19:15 limited vertical scale selections: 100 mV, 1 V, and 10 V. 2014-02-24 19:15 what do you want? 100V/div? 2014-02-24 19:15 I dunno, I just quote manual 2014-02-24 19:16 missing 1 and 10 mV/div 2014-02-24 19:16 ooh 2014-02-24 19:16 yes you're right :) 2014-02-24 19:17 so, no proper amp 2014-02-24 19:17 nevertheless you need a knob for each of the 4 chan, to adjust that 2014-02-24 19:17 or you mess with multifunction dial 2014-02-24 19:18 you need 4 dials for position of each "beam" as well 2014-02-24 19:18 so we are at 8 2014-02-24 19:18 yeah, it has one multifunction set of buttons&knobs for all channels 2014-02-24 19:18 I dunno, isn't 16 knobs a bit excessive? 2014-02-24 19:19 analog scopes have like 3 dials per channel 2014-02-24 19:19 plus a few switches 2014-02-24 19:19 and then they have timebase, that also has 2 dials 2014-02-24 19:20 and trigger, another dial 2014-02-24 19:20 plus switches 2014-02-24 19:20 that's why I say "the dso has too few dials" 2014-02-24 19:22 arielenter1 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 2014-02-24 19:28 motley_ is now known as motley 2014-02-24 19:37 counting, that's actually 16. But we also have brightness and such stuff 2014-02-24 19:38 I'm 100% fine with having less redundant elements though 2014-02-24 19:38 it's probably a matter of habit 2014-02-24 19:38 I mean, I already used DSO so I know how that feels 2014-02-24 19:39 redundant? 2014-02-24 19:39 it's just "normalized" 2014-02-24 19:40 one function one dial 2014-02-24 19:41 of course you can as well design stuff like: 16 pushbuttons to select function of the one multifunction dial 2014-02-24 19:41 but then you have two actions per adjustment 2014-02-24 19:41 normalized, yes 2014-02-24 19:41 well, no. you only have extra actions when switching channels 2014-02-24 19:41 i'd look for a rigol. they tend to have a lot more power for the money. tek are more "solid" but you spend a lot of money before you get something that can compare to a entry- to mid-level rigol 2014-02-24 19:42 btw, the tds520c should be 2 channels, not 4. that would be tds540c 2014-02-24 19:42 and you can replace the 16 pushbuttons by a few less and have 3 actions for some adjustments 2014-02-24 19:42 it's 2+2 channels 2014-02-24 19:42 wpwrak: and it sells for $700, you think $700 rigol would be that good? 2014-02-24 19:42 according to http://www1.tek.com/Measurement/Products/catalog/tds540c/specs.html it may also not have 250 kSa/chan but 50 kSa (unless extended) 2014-02-24 19:43 it's extended yes 2014-02-24 19:43 specifically options 1F 1M 2014-02-24 19:44 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 19:45 (4 chan) ah, 2 weird ones. interesting :) 2014-02-24 19:45 for 700 bucks you can't go wrong, unless the thing is totally fubar 2014-02-24 19:46 and when you don't hurry, it will be sold (and on its way to Germany ;-P) 2014-02-24 19:46 yah, that sort of critter has a refurbished list price in the USD 1k - 5k region. so 700 is very good. 2014-02-24 19:47 hehe 2014-02-24 19:48 * DocScrutinizer05 wonders what the "hack your tek" scene looks like 2014-02-24 19:48 i wouldn't worry about the number of knobs. what's annoying is if you only have one set of vertical control knobs and need to select the channel they control with a button. but besides that, there's little that can go wrong 2014-02-24 19:49 wpwrak: that's exactly what I talk about 2014-02-24 19:49 yea, it works like that 2014-02-24 19:49 you need sensitivity and pos for each chan 2014-02-24 19:49 one issue is that is has no usable data interface. so you'll be taking screenshots with a camera 2014-02-24 19:50 and it annoys hell outa me to select chan I want to adjust 2014-02-24 19:50 by pushbutton 2014-02-24 19:50 woakas1: floppy? 2014-02-24 19:50 there's option 13 for about $60, RS232C 2014-02-24 19:50 ah yes, indeed. yeah, that's messy. you can live with it, though. my rigol has that too. 2014-02-24 19:51 (13) you'll want that :) 2014-02-24 19:51 (floppy) i wrote "usable" ;-) there's also GPIB, but ... 2014-02-24 19:52 GPIB costs $300 2014-02-24 19:52 forget GPIB 2014-02-24 19:52 well, the converter 2014-02-24 19:53 modern tek have ethernet 2014-02-24 19:53 modern tek also have pricetag :S 2014-02-24 19:53 the old-modern conversion is easy: add a zero and you're there ;-) 2014-02-24 19:53 hehe 2014-02-24 19:54 heh 2014-02-24 19:55 that's why i like the rigols (for new devices). lots of memory, modern interfaces, overall decent performance (they're basically agilents), and their latest models even have a bunch of options you can enable by hacking a code :) 2014-02-24 19:55 i wonder why that tek has a numeric keypad. rather unusual. 2014-02-24 19:56 DS1052E: $560 2014-02-24 19:56 eh, 1102E rather 2014-02-24 19:57 monochrome screen can be a bit confusing when waveforms overlap. but then the resolution is good. 2014-02-24 19:57 1052E is $420 2014-02-24 19:57 naw, 1102E is obsolete. 1xx4Z is the new shooting star 2014-02-24 19:58 1074Z: $639 2014-02-24 19:58 24 MSa memory, you can get the 70 MHz and "unlock" 100 MHz 2014-02-24 19:59 ethernet and USB, color, ... 2014-02-24 19:59 http://www.tequipment.net has the DS1074Z for USD 585 2014-02-24 19:59 can't import 2014-02-24 20:00 also has "digital phosphor" :) 2014-02-24 20:01 yeah, I lose on analog bw, but... to be honest I don't have anything above 100MHz anyway 2014-02-24 20:01 not so nice: multiplexed vertical control. but that's understandable given the screen size and the rest of the device size 2014-02-24 20:01 tek has multiplexed vertical control too 2014-02-24 20:02 next would be the rigol DS2000 series. alas, only 2 channels. again, you can get the lowest-end model and "unlock" 200 MHz there 2014-02-24 20:02 grmbl, this shit's too complex and I'm practically dropping sleeping 2014-02-24 20:03 and they go up to 56 MSa (also unlockable) 2014-02-24 20:05 their nicest is the 4000 series. even more memory, up to 4 channels, more bandwidth, also many things unlockable (memory, bandwidth, serial decode), but a bit on the pricy side 2014-02-24 20:05 the 4000 are also finally big enough for a full set of controls :) 2014-02-24 20:07 one interesting feature of the rigols, i think already starting at the 1000, is the ability to have multiple captures (sometimes called "segments"). so you set up your memory in, say, 1% segments, and then each time it triggers it fills one such segment, and at the end you'll have collected 100 such waveforms 2014-02-24 20:09 another nice thing modern scopes have are waveform tests: you capture a waveform, add a certain amount of tolerances, then let it run and compare each waveform it sees with that pattern. when there's an excursion, stop or just count it. 2014-02-24 20:10 alas, i also have the "can't import" problem. not just me but neither the company that sells them ... 2014-02-24 20:14 well... meaning the only thing tek wins at is raw bandwidth 2014-02-24 20:14 meaning I should *not* get tek under any circumstances 2014-02-24 20:15 like buying a CPU based just on clock freq :) 2014-02-24 20:18 unrelated: that container with persulfate+peroxide burps every several seconds 2014-02-24 20:19 bandwidth is of course nice to have. also for "slow" signals, having many times that bandwidth can be useful, e.g., to examine edges or hunt for glitches 2014-02-24 20:20 "burping acid" that's a new one :) 2014-02-24 20:20 well, MSDS for both peroxide and persulfate instruct to not store them in airtight containers 2014-02-24 20:20 just make sure it doesn't get out of its container at night and strangles you in your sleep ;-) 2014-02-24 20:20 punch a hole ;) 2014-02-24 20:21 took lid off 2014-02-24 20:21 now you've set if free 2014-02-24 20:22 well... it's just oxygen 2014-02-24 20:22 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdbYsoEasio 2014-02-24 20:33 (segments) wow that's nice 2014-02-24 20:47 yeah, there have a bunch of interesting features 2014-02-24 20:47 hm, if my acrylic idea won't work, could try this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-PCB-UV-Curing-Paint-Ink-For-Character-Labels-White-100g-/180917167954?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a1f80e752 2014-02-24 20:47 if i had to buy a scope today, i'd be torn between the 1000Z series and 2000 (or 2000A, which is an update of the 2000 - not sure what exactly changed) 2014-02-24 20:47 but it seems very hard to obtain (exactly 1 vendor on ebay for all UV curing inks) and generally obscure 2014-02-24 20:47 hopefully acrylic works, it's easily available 2014-02-24 20:48 ooh, found some data indicating acrylic is used in industry 2014-02-24 20:48 "direct legend printing" process 2014-02-24 21:06 [commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw/usb/: change a few more uses of ../board.h to board.h (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/8b08594 2014-02-24 21:17 DocScrutinizer05: oh, and if you want a lot of knobs, they have the 1000B series. alas, very little memory and generally a weaker device. together with the 1000D/E, the previous generation. (ther's also 1000C/CD, which is even older. i have one of these, a 1102CD) 2014-02-24 21:35 [commit] Paul Cercueil: Fix key repeat of analog stick working only on some screens (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/b087e5c 2014-02-24 21:39 arielenter1 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 21:42 wpwrak: you talking about RIGOL scope ? 2014-02-24 21:42 yup 2014-02-24 21:43 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 2014-02-24 21:45 wpwrak: are there much difference ? 2014-02-24 21:45 between the 2 models ? 2014-02-24 21:47 arielenter1 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 2014-02-24 21:48 which two ? :) 2014-02-24 21:49 well, believe it or not, for scopes and synthesizers I can't come up with *any* UI that beats good old turn knob dials (or *maybe* linear pots) 2014-02-24 21:50 even for mixers I could figure alternatives that might work when well done. Not though for scopes and synthi 2014-02-24 21:51 (in case you wonder: moog is a synthesizer) 2014-02-24 21:51 here's an idea: get a MIDI knob box, then run you scope on remote control from the PC and provide inputs from the MIDI box 2014-02-24 21:51 might work but sounds pretty clumsy 2014-02-24 21:52 and yes, having a lot of knobs is always nice. but if you can't have the full array, then there are better and worse solutions 2014-02-24 21:53 also, there are other nuisances than having multiplexed channel controls, like cursor A and B on the same knob (very annoying, much more than the channel controls), some operations that require you to spin a wheel a gazillion times to get where you want to go, etc. 2014-02-24 21:54 for deep memory, you also want somewhat more sophisticated navigation. mark/goto, maybe soft-triggers, etc. not sure how well the rigols are doing in that regard. 2014-02-24 21:55 (navigation) if your scope is really responsive, you can more or less get away with just traditional controls. but then we're talking about agilent 7000 and such. 2014-02-24 21:57 btw dedicated dials not only serve for proper input, they also give a decent direct output about the particular setting 2014-02-24 21:59 DocScrutinizer05 wpwrak: seems like my little soldering experiment turned out well: 2014-02-24 21:59 http://apelete.seketeli.net/content/pictures/screenshot-gcwzero-boot-serial-top.png 2014-02-24 21:59 whee, congratulations ! 2014-02-24 21:59 the old teks had a magnifier turndial coaxial with the sensitivity selector, that had a range of iirc x1 to x10 contiguous, and they had a bright orange light on each channel showing when magnifier been "uncalibrated" (aka not x1) 2014-02-24 22:00 thanks ! \o/ 2014-02-24 22:00 :-) 2014-02-24 22:00 same for "zoom" which been the spreader for time base 2014-02-24 22:01 I the heck prefer a huge bright red lamp over any silly writing on display as only feedback 2014-02-24 22:01 now I just need to glue the wires inside the case, let them get out through the speaker grill hole, close the case and voilà :-) 2014-02-24 22:02 ah, so you didn't change the time base but just the zoom ? sounds nice. they could actually combine that for stopped/idle waveforms by just having an indicator when selected time base and last captured time base are the same 2014-02-24 22:02 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-24 22:02 OOOOH! you will want to add a set of plugs to separate the wires from the PCB 2014-02-24 22:02 leds are cheap :) 2014-02-24 22:05 (magnifier) mad useful to compare waveforms on two channels 2014-02-24 22:05 also the invert for at least one channel 2014-02-24 22:06 of course you have stuff like "A-B" but that is reducing the information displayed on screen 2014-02-24 22:07 FDCX has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-02-24 22:08 I don't just want to see the arithmetic difference between two channels, I also want to see the relation between the difference and the common wave 2014-02-24 22:08 and even for A-B mode you might want to adjust gain in one channel so it matches amplitude in other channel 2014-02-24 22:09 if it gets really fancy, i just download the waveform to the pc and torture it some more there ;-) 2014-02-24 22:09 I can't recall if contenporary dso have any such modes and adjusting options 2014-02-24 22:10 they tend to have more features than people usually can discover in a year or so :) 2014-02-24 22:10 i'll let you decide whether it is good or bad ;-) 2014-02-24 22:10 meh, when I need a PC to work with my scope, I think sth is quite messed up 2014-02-24 22:12 but that's totally in line with my mantra. You probably can do all the analog tricks on a dso as well, but an analog/multibutton scope is just 5 times as fast to get useful results 2014-02-24 22:12 there we differ :) i want the pc as the universal fallback. e.g., if i need to decode ARM's SWD protocol, i can either hunt for a $$$$$ (not just $$$) scope with a $$$$ protocol decoder option, or just write a little perl script 2014-02-24 22:13 no arguments aginst that from my side 2014-02-24 22:13 wpwrak: between 1000Z series and 2000 2014-02-24 22:14 and yes, i like responsive scopes. i wish they'd open access to their protocol decoders for triggering, because that's something one can't do from a pc 2014-02-24 22:14 hehe, right 2014-02-24 22:15 nicksydney: ah, i think the bottom like is this: the 2000(A) is a more rounded, higher-class device. BUT it costs more and maxes out at 2 channels. the 1000Z is more basic but gives you up to 4 channels. 2014-02-24 22:16 analog scopes are slow, they need some 10s to heat up the CRT. But... DSO might take some minutes to boot ;-P 2014-02-24 22:17 seems like Dave reviewed the 1000Z https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAnWSYg1z9A 2014-02-24 22:17 OOOH, and have you seen that DSO with good X/Y mode? 2014-02-24 22:17 note that, while many scopes reduce the sample rate from X for 1 CH to X/2 for 2 CH (2 CH scopes), and X for one channel from each pair and X/2 for >= 3 channels, the 1000Z actually divides all the way down to X/4 if you use all four channels 2014-02-24 22:17 prolly not 2014-02-24 22:17 since that's simply not how DSOs work 2014-02-24 22:17 so you get a fairly slow 250 MSa/s at the end. that's still usable, just rather low 2014-02-24 22:18 DocScrutinizer05: never had much use for X/Y ;-) 2014-02-24 22:18 pathetic ;-P 2014-02-24 22:18 DS1032Z and DS1062Z 2014-02-24 22:18 through it may look cute to plot data against clock ;-) 2014-02-24 22:18 pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo] 2014-02-24 22:19 XY in some cases beats 2chan hands down 2014-02-24 22:19 "1032" wow :) 2014-02-24 22:19 DocScrutinizer05: probably not in the digital domain. and that's where i spend most of my time. 2014-02-24 22:20 well 2014-02-24 22:20 need to visit this in september http://www.electronex.com.au/ 2014-02-24 22:22 nicksydney: if you want a good entry-level scope, i'd recommend the 1074Z. in many cases 2 channels are enough but sometimes you really really want more, and it sucks if you just can't have them. (my scope is an MSO. the digital part sucks very badly (broken by design, with all sorts of glitches), but sometimes i'm happy to have even that, because i couldn't see things otherwise) 2014-02-24 22:23 wpwrak: for your RF stuff you could use XY, but then your bandwidth most definitely will defeat that usecase 2014-02-24 22:24 nicksydney: if you want a more advanced device, it's a tie between 1074Z and the 2000 series. 2000 gives you more bandwidth, which is great. and they have also all the features fully developed (in the 1000Z, some are apparently not as smoothly done as in the 2000). the big drawback of the 2000 is that you can only get it with 2 channels. 2014-02-24 22:24 yeah. where's a good 3 GHz scope when you need one ? ;-) 2014-02-24 22:25 wpwrak: the 1074Z is this one http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1074Z-S.html ? 2014-02-24 22:25 -S adds a signal generator. that's probably useless except maybe in a classroom. 2014-02-24 22:25 wpwrak: or this one http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds1000Z/ds1074z/ 2014-02-24 22:26 the latter 2014-02-24 22:26 note that you can "upgrade" it to 100 MHz, 24 MSa, and some more goodies by entering a code 2014-02-24 22:27 (or you can spend about USD 1000 to by the options individually, see "accessories") 2014-02-24 22:27 i think "waveform record and display" is the segmented recording i mentioned earlier 2014-02-24 22:28 I read "waveform record and playback" and thought WOW 2014-02-24 22:28 wpwrak: this is the cheapest online can find in oz http://www.emona.com.au/rigol.asp 2014-02-24 22:28 wpwrak: budget can fit this one https://secure1.bluecentral.com/emona/shop/scripts/prodList.asp?idCategory=85 :) 2014-02-24 22:30 do i hear you pondering? ;-D 2014-02-24 22:31 the 1102E is not a bad scope. but the 1074Z is definitely worth the difference. i'd stay away from the 1052E. 50 MHz is too low, and "upgrading" it to 100 MHz, while possible, is messy. 2014-02-24 22:31 "waveform record and playback" is prolly a whole new class of tool, with the opportunities to use this feature yet to get investigated 2014-02-24 22:31 DSO made it feasible 2014-02-24 22:31 i think they explain in in eevblog, at least for the 2000 2014-02-24 22:32 yeah, lots of fun stuff in these 2014-02-24 22:32 yikes....the 1074Z is *DOUBLE* the price https://secure1.bluecentral.com/emona/shop/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=2866 :((((( 2014-02-24 22:32 I think I lost you 2014-02-24 22:32 I meant playback literally, via two wires 2014-02-24 22:32 ah ;-)) 2014-02-24 22:33 well, there are such setups. some of the rigols can work directly with a signal generator ... 2014-02-24 22:33 :-o 2014-02-24 22:33 nicksydney: is also has twice or more of everything :-) 2014-02-24 22:34 dang, again an idea I had - too late 2014-02-24 22:34 nicksydney: tell your wife her old shoes look great, much better than any of the new stuff. then you should be able to stretch the budget a little ;) 2014-02-24 22:35 hardly ;-P 2014-02-24 22:35 the opposite strategy might work though 2014-02-24 22:35 new shoes for her only when new scope for him 2014-02-24 22:36 DocScrutinizer05: i think that's a good strategy :) 2014-02-24 22:36 hmm, i think you'll get him divorced. then he'll be completely broke 2014-02-24 22:36 the trick is finding a good rationale for that 2014-02-24 22:36 why can't scope be like DVD player where it drops in price as time passes :) 2014-02-24 22:37 ooh it does 2014-02-24 22:37 in 1975 DSOs were ... err... $$$$$$$ ? 2014-02-24 22:37 ;-P 2014-02-24 22:37 before mail order, you could have said "let go to far-away place X to pick up that scope. oh, by the way, i've heard there's also a whole mall dedicated to shoes there" 2014-02-24 22:38 I think in 1975 you had analog storage scopes 2014-02-24 22:38 which been real crap 2014-02-24 22:38 yes, indeed. something like the 1000Z didn't even exist just a few years ago. and those that came close were more in the ferrari price class ... 2014-02-24 22:38 compared to what you would've needed and what you would've been able to pay for 2014-02-24 22:39 analog storage sounds a bit like storing people in the transporter coils in star trek .... 2014-02-24 22:39 so in another 2-3 years we will see scope like Rigol in the vicinity of the price of beaglebone black :) 2014-02-24 22:39 usually doens't go well for the red shirts 2014-02-24 22:40 well, you'll see some junk brand sell scopes with similar specifications but lousy build quality 2014-02-24 22:40 wpwrak: worse, in electron tubes 2014-02-24 22:41 storage CRT 2014-02-24 22:41 if you look around, you find a bunch of evil critters priced below rigol. they tend to make your life a lot more interesting ... 2014-02-24 22:41 hah :) 2014-02-24 22:41 i think at some point in time they also had some sort of ADC+DAC combos, but still CRT output 2014-02-24 22:42 yeah, a 6 months or so 2014-02-24 22:43 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-View_Storage_Tube 2014-02-24 22:45 >>Sie nutzten die 6×8 Zoll große **Tektronix**-611-Speicherröhre<< 2014-02-24 22:48 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speicheroszilloskop 2014-02-24 22:48 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tektronix_465_Oscilloscope.jpg 2014-02-24 22:49 you see the red magnifier knobs ;-) 2014-02-24 22:49 and the lamps nearby 2014-02-24 22:50 "UNCAL" 2014-02-24 22:50 "INTERCAL" ;-) 2014-02-24 22:54 no kidding? 2014-02-24 22:54 I can hardly read any writing on that photo 2014-02-24 22:55 the red UNCAL is only barely readable in `highres´ photo 2014-02-24 22:55 (what a shitty snapshot, really) 2014-02-24 22:55 (INTERCAL) now, just joking 2014-02-24 22:57 missed that one 2014-02-24 22:59 anyway, I wonder what that tek465 critter been called up for. probably some dozen DM 2014-02-24 22:59 dozen kDM 2014-02-24 22:59 sth in the range of a 2GHz scope nowadays 2014-02-24 23:01 wpwrak: XY mode http://www.knutsel.org/tag/tektronix-460-monitor/ LOL 2014-02-24 23:03 ;-) 2014-02-24 23:05 LOL >> It has the disadvantages of an analog scope combined with the confusing controls of a modern scope.<< 2014-02-24 23:06 you're not alone :) 2014-02-24 23:09 hmm nowadays it's not that unaffordable anymore: http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/usedequipment/tektronix/oscilloscopes/465.htm 2014-02-24 23:11 of couuuuuuurse! eevblog *again*: http://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/tektronix-465-repair-and-restoration/ 2014-02-24 23:39 apelete has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 2014-02-24 23:46 ah no, the 2000 also has one set of control per channel. so only the 1000Z multiplexes 2014-02-24 23:59 dos1 has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]