2014-02-20 00:02 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2014-02-20 00:06 wolfspraul has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 2014-02-20 00:10 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-20 01:35 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-20 01:59 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2014-02-20 02:35 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2014-02-20 03:06 http://zeptobars.ru/en/read/FTDI-FT232RL-real-vs-fake-supereal 2014-02-20 03:06 (en) 2014-02-20 03:14 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-20 03:29 whitequark: that's cool finding 2014-02-20 03:46 so ftdi broke potential customer's hardware. nice attitude. 2014-02-20 03:46 one more reason to avoid their chips 2014-02-20 03:47 * whitequark likes cp2102. cheaper and sturdier wrt/ ESD. 2014-02-20 03:51 kl26 is cheaper and a LOT more flexible 2014-02-20 03:53 isn't that an entire microcontroller? 2014-02-20 03:54 exactly ! 2014-02-20 03:54 I mean, an advantage of cp2102 is that it works out of the box on major OSes with no flashing 2014-02-20 03:54 you just solder it and voila 2014-02-20 03:55 so,. buy a ton of kl26, preinstall your fw, still win :) 2014-02-20 03:56 major OSes include windows... 2014-02-20 03:56 I meant cp2102 is awesome for one-off stuff though 2014-02-20 03:56 for something serious sure, you should use an actual micro 2014-02-20 03:57 oh, hm, it also comes with VID/PID 2014-02-20 03:57 which probably even adds to the cost 2014-02-20 04:01 yeah, what is it, some USD 2k ? divided by millions ;-) 2014-02-20 04:01 10000% margin or such ;-) 2014-02-20 04:08 Luke-Jr has quit [Excess Flood] 2014-02-20 04:09 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-20 04:13 DocScrutinizer05: suddenly: http://www.electronic-thingks.de/de/elektronikprodukte/loetzubehoer/galden-ls-230.html 2014-02-20 04:14 though that's more expensive than that other shop 2014-02-20 04:14 hrmpf 2014-02-20 04:18 seriously considering buying a 7kg bottle 2014-02-20 04:29 ooo: http://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/224245#3534316 2014-02-20 04:45 rather :-O http://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/224245#2976456 2014-02-20 04:46 Fluorphosgen eeeek 2014-02-20 04:47 meh. just don't let it heat up too much 2014-02-20 04:47 I'm sure overheated PCB, components, plastics, etc, etc release not less harmful chemicals 2014-02-20 04:48 *rereads* though I think I'll make a fume hood for that 2014-02-20 05:17 I ponder to build modified deep friers (with emergency cut out at 260°C by dedicated thermofuse) with thermostat replaced by special thermo regulation (processor based?) that also uses additional sensors to detect vapor level in tub, then add some Galden in a bottle to the kit and sell it as convenience-package 2014-02-20 05:19 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2014-02-20 05:20 actually, it's hard to come up with a good story how considerable amounts of a fluid that evaporates at 200 or 230°C can get heated up to a temperature of 290°C so it decomposes into toxic stuff 2014-02-20 05:20 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2014-02-20 05:21 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-20 05:22 I mean, it's not like HS-230 would condensate on the 300°C hot floor of the frier to get destroyed 2014-02-20 05:22 it's just the vapor that gets into contact with the hot surface, and that's probably not that much substance 2014-02-20 05:24 I even wonder if the decomposition products (HF etc) will recombine as soon as they cool down sufficiently 2014-02-20 05:25 maybe not, since it's basically a polymer aiui 2014-02-20 05:26 DocScrutinizer05: (build modified deep friers) something I'd be pretty interesting in :) 2014-02-20 05:27 (decomposition products) to my best knowledge, they immediately fly away and go on to destroy everything good in this world 2014-02-20 06:03 whitequark: any suggestions for product spec welcome. Like "special lid with integrated cooler for condensing Galden vapor before it escapes the tub. Operates on water or a mixture of water and ice. Condensed Galden flows down to bottom of fryer tub from a special tap directing the liquid to the wall of the tub where it runs down without getting into contact with the PCB" 2014-02-20 06:10 I think the floor (heater element) temperature sensor may autodetect when boiling temperature got reached (delta-temp/t) and the controller doesn't try to increase temperature above that point. Or, nore specifically: when controller notices floor temperature rising a maybe 3°C above that temperature plateau and the vapor level sensor doesn't detect vapor reaching the sensor and heating it up as expected, then the controller 2014-02-20 06:10 thorows "GALDEN VOLUME TOO LOW!" error and shuts down 2014-02-20 06:12 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-02-20 06:12 when floor temperature reaches - say - 250°C without controller sensing any plateau: -> error: "GALDEN MISSING!" 2014-02-20 06:14 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-20 06:16 DocScrutinizer05: I want to get my hands on the live process first 2014-02-20 06:16 idle speculation isn't really very productive if you aren't even familiar with the thing you're trying to make 2014-02-20 06:17 talking about condensing galden... I *suspect* this is not very important, due to low vapor pressure => meaning it stays near the liquid? 2014-02-20 06:17 also very high density of vapor as well 2014-02-20 06:17 you want to operate it in a way where galden vapor does not overflow the tub at all 2014-02-20 06:18 (heating element) I think you should just use a standard PID controller algorithm. I mean, why not? 2014-02-20 06:18 (detecting overtemp and telling user that there's no galden) yes, that's an excellent idea 2014-02-20 06:18 wej_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2014-02-20 06:19 whitequark: when you purr a litre of Galden into the fryer and then cook it at 2kW, it inevitably will escape the fryer sooner rather than later 2014-02-20 06:20 I wonder the exact degree of that 2014-02-20 06:21 hence see above, want to get my hands on the process. Fortunately how much galden has escaped is very easy to measure. 2014-02-20 06:22 you can simulate with water 2014-02-20 06:22 eventually the pipe on nozzle of your kettle will start to whistle 2014-02-20 06:23 sure, that's not the supposed operation mode of a Galden VPS equipment 2014-02-20 06:24 so consider it the outer safety containment and cooling of a nuclear reactor. Usually not active but for sure not useless 2014-02-20 06:26 It just came to mind while pondering another type of cooling: some pipes with water cooling at the bottom of tub, to shut down the process in an instant when you start the water flow through the tubs 2014-02-20 06:26 DocScrutinizer05: sounds like overkill 2014-02-20 06:26 thought about galden escaping: think of the diagrams provided by VPS vendors 2014-02-20 06:26 probably, particularly since you usually want slow gradients, not steep ones 2014-02-20 06:27 in the working area there is significant temperature gradient, with most of space above PCB being lower than Tb 2014-02-20 06:27 it really has no other way to escape than over the edges of the pot, and edges are cold => it condenses and flows down 2014-02-20 06:27 I meant gradients over time, not over dimension axis 2014-02-20 06:28 aka profile 2014-02-20 06:28 nono, I'm talking about escaping now. not the water cooling thing (later about that) 2014-02-20 06:28 so I think it would be sufficient to monitor temperature of the bottom of the pot (aka working area) *and* of the top of the pot (aka condensation area) 2014-02-20 06:28 yes, exactly 2014-02-20 06:29 if bottom is too cold? not yet ready. too hot? alert, no galden. top is too hot? shut the thing down 2014-02-20 06:29 it really would be much better than fiddling with ice and so 2014-02-20 06:29 that'd really be a nuisance 2014-02-20 06:29 but in case that control runs away, your pot will "overcook" 2014-02-20 06:29 thermofuse? 2014-02-20 06:29 like in my laminator. 2014-02-20 06:29 or better: control *and* thermofuse set 5°C higher 2014-02-20 06:29 maybe 10°C 2014-02-20 06:30 nonono, you can't do that since you may ise different Galden 2014-02-20 06:30 ah, true. 2014-02-20 06:30 duplicate control circuits? 2014-02-20 06:30 you could place a hard fuse at maybe 150°C at very top of pot 2014-02-20 06:30 possibly 2 circuits with 2 thermocouples for each 2014-02-20 06:30 but it's already too late when that one engages 2014-02-20 06:31 well, you definitely need a fuse at 280°C at bottom 2014-02-20 06:31 sure 2014-02-20 06:31 (hottest galden is ht-270) 2014-02-20 06:31 I said 260 2014-02-20 06:31 mhm 2014-02-20 06:31 though ht is heat transfer, ls is vps 2014-02-20 06:32 I'm reluctant to go beyonf 260, since with titan around it already decomposes at that temperature 2014-02-20 06:32 also PCBs delaminate above 260 in mere minutes 2014-02-20 06:32 I've investigated that just today 2014-02-20 06:32 hehe 2014-02-20 06:32 unless you have really high-quality specialized FR4 you have 1-2 minutes before delamination 2014-02-20 06:32 no, not experimentally ;) 2014-02-20 06:32 found some papers 2014-02-20 06:33 I was searching for a suitable activation agent for copper plating 2014-02-20 06:33 aaah 2014-02-20 06:33 and most organic salts of copper decompose at least at 260, and that's lower bound 2014-02-20 06:33 so it's pretty sad on that front 2014-02-20 06:33 I'll still order oxalate, acetylacetonate, formate and citrate to test whether they're suitable 2014-02-20 06:34 but they are likely not 2014-02-20 06:34 so it all fails with unavailability of that hypophosphoric acid? 2014-02-20 06:34 apparently hypophosphites are the ultimate sweet spot for copper plating 2014-02-20 06:34 it's hard to find anything even nearly as good 2014-02-20 06:34 whoever put that on DEA Schedule I, fuck you 2014-02-20 06:36 :nod: 2014-02-20 06:36 a guy on RU forums did some experiments 2014-02-20 06:36 apparently: acetate has too high temp, turns into carbon 2014-02-20 06:36 about 250-300°C decomposition, also emits vinegar vapors (not good) 2014-02-20 06:37 oxalate: insoluble in water but readily forms suspensions. decomposition is above 350-400°C 2014-02-20 06:37 likely 500°C 2014-02-20 06:37 eew 2014-02-20 06:37 exactly 2014-02-20 06:37 there's probably a reason why this got patented 2014-02-20 06:37 so I'm still going to order that. I know a good inorganic chemist, maybe he'll help me to find something workable 2014-02-20 06:37 a catalyst sounds about right for this case 2014-02-20 06:38 I'm sure there must be *some* research 2014-02-20 06:38 (patented) patented was not just hypophosphite method itself but a variation of it 2014-02-20 06:38 namely he oversaturated the solution with calcium hypophosphite so that there's always a maximal amount of hypophosphite anions in the solution 2014-02-20 06:39 this gives far superior plating quality 2014-02-20 06:39 like, before this modification it didn't pass GOST standard check 2014-02-20 06:39 and I can frankly tell that USSR-era GOST standards on PCBs is not the strictest in the world 2014-02-20 06:41 aaah 2014-02-20 06:41 never heard of GOST 2014-02-20 06:43 really? there's a GOST crypto algorithm in openssl even 2014-02-20 06:43 anyway, to ideas came to mind, dunno how much of a value in any of them: a) use some other metal, you don't need copper as conductive basis for any galvanic copper plating to a PCB, any conductive very thing coating might do. 2014-02-20 06:43 right 2014-02-20 06:43 but, several papers I've read mention that copper salts decompose at a *lower* temperature than other metal salts 2014-02-20 06:43 rather significantly so 2014-02-20 06:43 (and the mechanism is not currently fully known :) 2014-02-20 06:44 there's a well-known another process, it uses PdCl2 2014-02-20 06:44 that costs about as much as you may imagine 2014-02-20 06:44 b) use some kind of "glue" coating that evaporates or decomposes, and dunk all that into an emulsion of nanocopper in water or whatever liquid. should make particles stick to PCB, later you evaporate the glue and particles stay 2014-02-20 06:45 hm. 2014-02-20 06:48 3rd of my 2 ideas: use other forms of energy than mere slow heating to 242.42°C. Like flashlight, laser, microwave, hot air flush at 3000°C, etc 2014-02-20 06:48 UV light 2014-02-20 06:50 dunno, there are more than just one way to skin the cat 2014-02-20 06:51 haha, I love this proverb 2014-02-20 06:52 think of good ole photography: silver iodine? 2014-02-20 06:52 hmmm 2014-02-20 06:52 that may actually be a good idea 2014-02-20 06:53 silvernitrate? 2014-02-20 06:53 how did they build mirrors in the old days? 2014-02-20 06:53 I think silver nitrate is actually one of possible replacements in pdcl2 in that process I've read about 2014-02-20 06:53 hang on 2014-02-20 06:54 yep, possible 2014-02-20 06:54 http://www.cqham.ru/pcb6.htm 2014-02-20 06:54 ;-P 2014-02-20 06:55 soo... SnCl2, AgNO3, CuSO4, C4H4O6KNa, NaOH, CH2O 2014-02-20 06:55 :/ formaldehyde 2014-02-20 06:55 seems you got your very own special way to have some sort of darknet over there in Russia 2014-02-20 06:56 it's not a darknet, I think russians just have insatiable thirst for diy and no money at all 2014-02-20 06:56 it's all over the russian internet, I mean when I type in "hypophosphite" the first page is not linked to ways of cooking meth 2014-02-20 06:56 I'm talking about this cryptography you are using 2014-02-20 06:56 rather it's filled with ways of making PCBs 2014-02-20 06:56 cryptography? 2014-02-20 06:56 those weird characters 2014-02-20 06:57 ooooh 2014-02-20 06:57 :D 2014-02-20 06:57 ugh 2014-02-20 06:57 DocScrutinizer05: it's very sad 2014-02-20 06:57 almost like the French 2014-02-20 06:57 this method requires manual deposit of SnCl2 solution in every single hole 2014-02-20 06:58 I say fuck this method 2014-02-20 06:58 o.O 2014-02-20 06:58 why 2manual"? 2014-02-20 06:58 why "manual"? 2014-02-20 06:58 I don't know, that's what the instruction says 2014-02-20 06:58 lemme think 2014-02-20 06:59 what the heck means "manual" 2014-02-20 06:59 ah 2014-02-20 06:59 with a syringe and a needle 2014-02-20 06:59 and your hands 2014-02-20 06:59 that sounds silly 2014-02-20 06:59 exactly 2014-02-20 06:59 btw, look for yourself: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cqham.ru%2Fpcb6.htm 2014-02-20 06:59 it's translated really well 2014-02-20 07:00 -Palladium chloride (can be successfully replaced by platinum chloride or, in extreme cases, silver nitrate) 2014-02-20 07:00 >in extreme cases 2014-02-20 07:00 here "extreme" means "extreme poverty" I guess 2014-02-20 07:00 (it's not what it said initially :D) 2014-02-20 07:03 hehe 2014-02-20 07:03 platinium chloride, wtf? 2014-02-20 07:04 no idea why is it needed 2014-02-20 07:04 catalyst? 2014-02-20 07:04 I can't spot why it's *needed* to apply solution to holes with a syringe 2014-02-20 07:04 well, I have one guess 2014-02-20 07:04 seems it just felt natural to the original author 2014-02-20 07:04 what would you use instead of syringe? 2014-02-20 07:05 anyway, sounds like a job for your CNC solderpaste spreader extension 2014-02-20 07:05 oh, that... hm. that's an option 2014-02-20 07:06 err, I would try to dunk the PCB into a bath of the solution, maybe move it vigorously to make solution enter all holes 2014-02-20 07:06 yes, exactly 2014-02-20 07:06 now think, you have 1-2ml of your precious metal salt in a syringe 2014-02-20 07:06 now you need a *bath* of that 2014-02-20 07:06 sounds a bit expensive doesn't it? 2014-02-20 07:06 maybe the stuff is just too expensive to prepare and use large amounts of solution to allow that process? 2014-02-20 07:06 exactly 2014-02-20 07:06 ;-D ^^^ 2014-02-20 07:08 you might be able to come up with drastically improved variations, regarding amount of solution needed 2014-02-20 07:09 hmmm 2014-02-20 07:09 think of a bag with 5ml of solution and the PCB, sealed without air inside, then place that to vacuum 2014-02-20 07:10 I suspect the Pd is not catalyst though 2014-02-20 07:10 but is the actual thing which is deposited initially 2014-02-20 07:11 ooh look 2014-02-20 07:11 DocScrutinizer05: another one of your guesses was right 2014-02-20 07:11 "Excimer lamp-induced decomposition of platinum acetylacetonate films for electroless copper plating" 2014-02-20 07:12 >Photo-induced decomposition of platinum acetylacetonate films using an excimer VUV source of 172 nm radiation is reported. VUV irradiation of a substrate coated with platinum acetylacetonate film results in the formation of platinum, which acts as an activator for copper plating by means of a subsequent electroless bath process. 2014-02-20 07:12 not suggesting to use that though, 172nm UV is highly carcinogenic and causes cataracts 2014-02-20 07:14 yeah, hard UV is a tad nasty to deal with, but not unfeasible 2014-02-20 07:15 true words of the guy who suggested "exploding wire method" ;D 2014-02-20 07:15 dunno if 172nm already gets into the range that really becomes impossible to handle since plain air and other gasses absorb it 2014-02-20 07:16 DocScrutinizer05: a quick search reveals that gasses don't absorb UV at that freq, rather water vapor does 2014-02-20 07:17 and no, seems still within usable range 2014-02-20 07:17 ~1-2 orders of magnitude worse than visible spectrum 2014-02-20 07:19 though no, don't take my word for it. needs further investigation 2014-02-20 07:19 chip waver exposure by hard UV is done in vacuum, but I guess that's another class of UV 2014-02-20 07:19 well... no, I was wrong 2014-02-20 07:20 UVC (100-200nm) is blocked by O2 2014-02-20 07:20 so that needs vacuum even 2014-02-20 07:20 eventually they had to switch from lenses made of bizarre expensive material to concave mirrors since the lens material wasn't able to cope with the UV wavelength 2014-02-20 07:20 plus what exactly will you make UVC with? arc lamp? 2014-02-20 07:20 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-20 07:20 yeah, light sources for hard UV are another problem 2014-02-20 07:21 so that clearly classifies as "not feasible on a DIY level" 2014-02-20 07:21 definitely 2014-02-20 07:21 they use similarly biszarre light sources in chip manuf 2014-02-20 07:21 don't they use xray already? 2014-02-20 07:22 meanwhile they do 2014-02-20 07:22 UV was too long wavelength 2014-02-20 07:22 wow, they used it in 1987: https://www.engr.wisc.edu/alumni/perspective/13.3/chips.html 2014-02-20 07:23 >Masks themselves (due to the nature of x-rays) are made up of light, thermally stable, extremely flat, “optically transparent” low-atomic-weight materials, such as beryllium (which is absolutely the best, but costs like the GDP of Argentina) 2014-02-20 07:23 GDP of Argentina hahaha 2014-02-20 07:23 sure, it takes a while from emerging new technology to industrial level mass usage 2014-02-20 07:23 anyway beryllium masks are evil apart from being expensive 2014-02-20 07:24 Be is really toxic 2014-02-20 07:24 check "UV lithography" 2014-02-20 07:25 So, elements such as platinum, gold (nice 'cuz they don't oxidize, lousy 'cuz they're as soft as butter), or tungsten, or especially uranium (which has its own problems with oxidation) are the masking 'stuff'. 2014-02-20 07:25 uranium!! 2014-02-20 07:25 the predecessor of x-ray lithography 2014-02-20 07:25 now I knew depleted uranium can be used highly successfully if you need a really heavy brick 2014-02-20 07:25 but don't they have to keep work area *really* clear of any radiation? and while depleted U is not very radioactive it will still crap all over occasionally 2014-02-20 07:27 x-ray lithography is probably also out meanwhile (I don't follow closely anymore). Maybe now electron beam is the thing they use 2014-02-20 07:28 all of that not really an alternative for anything PCB related 2014-02-20 07:28 right, electron beam 2014-02-20 07:28 definitely not for PCBs :) 2014-02-20 07:29 just a funny read when you got the rant of "we want open source hw manufacturing, down to the roots of the creation chain" zealots in mind 2014-02-20 07:29 well that would certainly be nice 2014-02-20 07:29 but people tend to severely underestimate the real complexity and cost of all the tasks 2014-02-20 07:30 by 5-10 orders of magnitude, I think :D 2014-02-20 07:30 yes, by a factor of 10^6 to 10^12 2014-02-20 07:30 hah 2014-02-20 07:30 hehe 2014-02-20 07:52 * whitequark is watching live stream from UA 2014-02-20 07:53 wej_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-20 07:57 DocScrutinizer05: that guy from µC.net responded with a quote... 110 eur for 0.5L 2014-02-20 07:57 I say this is a really good price 2014-02-20 08:00 wej_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2014-02-20 08:02 wej_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-20 08:05 yes, definitely 2014-02-20 08:07 so... will still phone a local distributor, but they likely don't want to work with me 2014-02-20 08:07 4/5 list MOQ=100kg 2014-02-20 08:07 what ever are you even going to do with 100kg of galden 2014-02-20 08:08 that's probably enough for a small country for a year 2014-02-20 08:09 operate a *real* vapor phase? 2014-02-20 08:09 sinze of two fridges, or 4 2014-02-20 08:09 size* 2014-02-20 08:09 mm, perhaps 2014-02-20 08:12 anyway I'm going to sleep 2014-02-20 08:13 o/ 2014-02-20 08:18 mth has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-02-20 08:20 porchao has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-20 08:20 mth has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-20 08:21 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-20 08:24 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-20 08:25 wej_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-02-20 08:36 wej_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-20 09:03 wej_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2014-02-20 09:03 wej_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-20 09:29 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-02-20 09:56 rz2k has quit [] 2014-02-20 09:58 AAH. finally a timer signal. what was missing is to un-suspend timers in debug mode. gnargh. 2014-02-20 10:25 hah! 2014-02-20 11:40 \o/ EDF deadline process scheduler in kernel 3.14 2014-02-20 11:41 EDF? 2014-02-20 11:42 earliest deadline first 2014-02-20 11:43 real realtime 2014-02-20 11:43 also: kGraft yay! finally ksplice for the masses 2014-02-20 11:44 that's great 2014-02-20 11:59 Luke-Jr has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-02-20 11:59 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-20 12:18 pcercuei_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-20 12:20 wej_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-02-20 12:23 pcercuei has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2014-02-20 12:55 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-20 13:21 DocScrutinizer05: >"of course is it ok for me to ship to Moscow, why not?" 2014-02-20 13:21 I see he never actually tried it :D 2014-02-20 13:21 LOL 2014-02-20 13:22 him shipping is no trouble at all. You *receiving* it might well be though 2014-02-20 13:24 customs might have a hard time verifying the content of this bottle is actually what's written on the outside, and not any listed substance 2014-02-20 13:25 ah 2014-02-20 13:25 well, the right thing to write in declaration is "solvent fluid", that is even technically true 2014-02-20 13:26 non-toxic, non-corrosive 2014-02-20 13:26 non-flamable 2014-02-20 13:26 right 2014-02-20 13:27 note that this soup is also used for lubricant and for vacuum pumps 2014-02-20 13:30 and even to drown mice and scare them to death err not ;-P 2014-02-20 13:32 I need to start a test - see how long it takes til a drop of that stuff vanishes on glass, at room temperature 2014-02-20 13:33 drown mice, hmm 2014-02-20 13:34 (drop vanishes on glass) yep, an important test 2014-02-20 13:34 are you thinking of shipping a drowned living mouse in the bottle? X-P 2014-02-20 13:35 will shock the shit out of customs 2014-02-20 13:35 afaik they don't survive the ordeal for very long 2014-02-20 13:36 prolly not, they are dieing from dehydration I guess 2014-02-20 13:37 * DocScrutinizer05 picks a straw and a drinking glass 2014-02-20 13:37 it seems that they day a short while after you take them out of the liquid. not sure of what. maybe they simply succeed in convincing themselves that this experience can't have been survivable. 2014-02-20 13:39 while mice actually can do this (die from shock), I suspect here the problem is lungs clogged with liquid, thus blocking gas flow to alvioles 2014-02-20 13:40 basically a very severe lung emphysema 2014-02-20 13:41 err, nope. dang, emphysema isn't the right term 2014-02-20 13:41 almost but not really 2014-02-20 13:43 lung oedema 2014-02-20 13:43 to not suffer this, I'll stop smoking this cig before I proceed with the Galden 2014-02-20 13:44 and I'll place the glass with the drop to evaporate outside 2014-02-20 13:53 kristian1aul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-20 13:55 uwe__ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-20 13:58 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-02-20 13:59 test started 2014-02-20 13:59 kristianpaul has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-20 13:59 uwe_ has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-20 13:59 newcup has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-20 14:00 uwe__ is now known as uwe_ 2014-02-20 14:00 and already failed. the drop isn't visible though still some liquid is there 2014-02-20 14:01 I seen something moving when tilting the glass 2014-02-20 14:01 though I already had to look *very* closely 2014-02-20 14:03 seems optical density of galden is just too close to that of normal glass 2014-02-20 14:04 when I could find a glass with roughened (etched) surface, I bet this would be easier to see 2014-02-20 14:08 jow_lapt1p has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-20 14:11 jow_laptop has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-02-20 14:11 DocScrutinizer05: wait, you got yourself some galden?! 2014-02-20 14:11 * whitequark is envious 2014-02-20 14:11 sure, since weeks, I mentioned it here 2014-02-20 14:14 * DocScrutinizer05 just starts to wonder how much HF might be solved in Galden, to begin with 2014-02-20 14:16 when I let's say drop a 5mm glowing hot steel ball into the bottle, will HF and other shit escape the bottle immediately or will it much rather solve in Galden? 2014-02-20 14:17 how much of that effect might have happened in factory already, during production? How much due to aging, by cosmic particles or dunno what? 2014-02-20 14:19 DocScrutinizer05: (hot steel ball) I would fully expect it to escape immediately. you'd get hot HF vapours with very low density 2014-02-20 14:19 (during factory) I'd imagine they clean it carefully from HF, because HF is highly corrosive and you can't really sell your liquid as "chemically inert" 2014-02-20 14:20 sure, but wouldn't they solve in the galden around them? 2014-02-20 14:20 HF is a gas 2014-02-20 14:20 oxigen too 2014-02-20 14:20 Galden is known to solve gasses very good 2014-02-20 14:21 well. solubility of gasses in liquids is an unsolved problem in general as I have already found out 2014-02-20 14:21 so without experiment it is really hard to say for sure 2014-02-20 14:21 it seems even H2O is solving easily in Galden, so you might call it hygroscopic 2014-02-20 14:21 I would really think that at the decomposition temperature *and* low pressure HF would not be soluble well in galden 2014-02-20 14:22 but that's my idle speculation 2014-02-20 14:22 well 2014-02-20 14:22 let's find out? 2014-02-20 14:22 o.O 2014-02-20 14:23 actually, no, shouldn't be needed 2014-02-20 14:23 such data should be contained in MSDS or related documents 2014-02-20 14:23 I already heated a dropplet of that stuff on a spoon, with my lughter :-o 2014-02-20 14:23 lol 2014-02-20 14:23 lighter even 2014-02-20 14:23 but how would you detect HF? 2014-02-20 14:23 also, that's a bit suicidal 2014-02-20 14:23 exactly, that's why I won't repeat that 2014-02-20 14:24 I mean, if you were a bird, you'd drop dead already; birds are extremely sensitive to ppm concentrations of fluorocarbon decomposition products 2014-02-20 14:24 I wonder why 2014-02-20 14:24 birds are strange 2014-02-20 14:25 http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=15+1829&aid=2874 2014-02-20 14:25 highly relevant 2014-02-20 14:26 though after reading that I want to live in a forest or something :S 2014-02-20 14:26 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-20 14:28 DocScrutinizer05: btw, what happened after heating it in a lighter? 2014-02-20 14:28 it vanished 2014-02-20 14:29 so, likely just evaporated 2014-02-20 14:29 but whatever miniscule quantities went to the flame decomposed to that toxic shit 2014-02-20 14:29 maybe 5% got decomposed by flame 2014-02-20 14:29 initial qty esimated a 0.01g 2014-02-20 14:30 I wonder, if you heated it over a container, something like a frying pan 2014-02-20 14:30 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-20 14:30 would it condensate back on it? 2014-02-20 14:30 suppose no side wind 2014-02-20 14:30 I seen it partially condensing at spoon further away from flame 2014-02-20 14:30 Ornoterm1s has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-20 14:31 it kinda creeps away from the flame 2014-02-20 14:32 well, I guess for this experiment to get really dangerous the stuff had to be VX, not Galden 2014-02-20 14:34 or tritium-water 2014-02-20 14:35 tritium-water isn't really dangerous as it does not bioaccumulate 2014-02-20 14:36 and β¯-decays 2014-02-20 14:38 kristian1aul has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-02-20 14:38 Ornotermes has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-02-20 14:38 well, the tritium light on my keyring is forbidden in Germany 2014-02-20 14:39 despite the immesurable amount of tritium gas inside 2014-02-20 14:40 it has a radiation above a certain Becquerel 2014-02-20 14:40 because people are stupidly paranoid about radiation 2014-02-20 14:40 that doesn't even escape the glas tube 2014-02-20 14:40 but it *could* 2014-02-20 14:40 when you destroy it 2014-02-20 14:40 and gamma radiators are really evil when ingested 2014-02-20 14:41 and the whole milligram of T2 will go to air and in about three seconds go below natural background levels 2014-02-20 14:41 it's not gamma 2014-02-20 14:41 it's β¯ 2014-02-20 14:41 err beta 2014-02-20 14:41 and in this case it's not evil, you know why? because nothing in your body uses or accumulates H2 from air 2014-02-20 14:42 can't pass a sheet of paper, but can shoot your DNA from an angstrom distance 2014-02-20 14:42 it'll just dissipate 2014-02-20 14:42 yeah, unless you burn it to water, that is 2014-02-20 14:42 when you sit on a granite pavement you subject yourself to a higher risk 2014-02-20 14:42 I don't think it's even possible to burn that amount of T2, simply because it *doesn't burn* at that concentration 2014-02-20 14:42 at all 2014-02-20 14:43 you have min and max amounts of H2 and O2 for reaction to proceed 2014-02-20 14:43 3H2 is for sure not dangerous, 3H2O though... 2014-02-20 14:44 and it inevitably would react with oxygen from air to form 3H2O in a flame of a lighter 2014-02-20 14:44 newcup has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-20 14:45 * whitequark sighs 2014-02-20 14:45 I still dunno if it would be more dangerous than widespread natural occurrence of Radon in cellars 2014-02-20 14:45 shall I take absurdly low yearly exposure limits and prove that even by current paranoid official standards it is not dangerous at all? 2014-02-20 14:46 it'll probably start to become bad if you burn a pallet of those things 2014-02-20 14:46 even so doubtful 2014-02-20 14:47 the effect is very similar to that of polonium and plutonium aiui 2014-02-20 14:48 polonium decays as α too, though 2014-02-20 14:48 and I still wonder if that glolite keyring thing does emit xray. The energy of beta is some 25keV iirc 2014-02-20 14:49 jow_lapt1p is now known as jow_laptop 2014-02-20 14:49 for sure less than any crt tube, particularly color 2014-02-20 14:50 >In the early twentieth century, radiographers would commonly calibrate their machines by irradiating their own hand and measuring the time to onset of erythema. 2014-02-20 14:50 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-20 14:50 LOL 2014-02-20 14:51 I still seen and *used* the shoe checker xray box in shoe shops 2014-02-20 14:51 my mother got panic 2014-02-20 14:51 must've been 1964, 65 2014-02-20 14:52 shoe checker? 2014-02-20 14:52 they should've been outloawed by then, but in some cheesy little province town they had one still 2014-02-20 14:53 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedoskop 2014-02-20 14:53 wow 2014-02-20 14:54 > that it made it more fun for kids to go to the shoe store 2014-02-20 14:54 fun for the whole family indeed 2014-02-20 14:55 yea, I was damn mesmerized by that thing 2014-02-20 14:55 wait, how old are you exactly? 2014-02-20 14:55 1964?! 2014-02-20 14:55 when my mother didn't watch for a minute, I managed to sneek to it and start it 2014-02-20 14:56 shhhh! 2014-02-20 14:56 I see there's something time doesn't change :D 2014-02-20 14:58 3 years later I wouln't have approached that thing, by no means. But in that age my education wasn't sufficient, regarding stuff like xray. Only sufficient to design an electromotor without ever having seen one from inside 2014-02-20 15:02 and I don't even know what's been written on the sign they placed on that pedoskop - prolly "Achtung! Roentgenstrahlung! Gefahr!". I didn't know to read by then 2014-02-20 15:04 except digits and "LOTTO" ;-P 2014-02-20 15:05