2014-02-17 00:09 wolfspra1l has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-17 00:12 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2014-02-17 00:19 kyak has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2014-02-17 00:44 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-02-17 01:25 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-02-17 01:37 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-17 02:28 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-02-17 02:39 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-17 02:51 michael_lee has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2014-02-17 02:57 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-17 03:49 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-17 04:08 Luke-Jr has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-02-17 04:10 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-02-17 04:21 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-17 04:23 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-17 04:27 Luke-Jr has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-02-17 04:29 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-17 04:46 Luke-Jr has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-02-17 04:48 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-17 04:59 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-17 05:14 kyak has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-17 05:30 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-02-17 05:33 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2014-02-17 06:36 nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-02-17 06:39 qi-bot has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-02-17 07:33 xiangfu has quit [Quit: leaving] 2014-02-17 07:34 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-17 07:34 viric has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-02-17 07:42 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-17 08:05 jekhor_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-17 08:12 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-17 08:22 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-17 08:31 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-02-17 09:14 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-17 09:39 dandon_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-17 09:41 dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-02-17 09:41 dandon_ is now known as dandon 2014-02-17 10:09 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-17 10:34 qi-bot has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-17 10:44 anybody ever heard of tandemlaunch(.com)? 2014-02-17 10:46 when they approach you and ask you for an interview, I wonder if that's a good sign 2014-02-17 10:46 I don't see what exactly they would do for me, so I would want to 2waste time" for such interview 2014-02-17 11:06 jekhor_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 2014-02-17 11:21 a job interview? 2014-02-17 11:22 or about neo900? 2014-02-17 11:26 no info 2014-02-17 11:26 well, something like "I'm very interested in your project" 2014-02-17 11:28 to neo900 contact mail addr 2014-02-17 11:29 so she even could act as a customer who thinks it's a nice idea to talk to the manufacturers of her next phone 2014-02-17 11:29 so it's about neo900 2014-02-17 11:30 :nod: 2014-02-17 11:30 basically yes 2014-02-17 11:31 I however wonder if that's a game I want to play 2014-02-17 11:31 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-17 11:32 our "project" isn't exactly about investors and university research 2014-02-17 11:32 nor are we investors ourselves 2014-02-17 11:33 that's basically the whole mail: >>I am very interested in this project, and wondered if you would have some time for a call to chat a bit. I'm interested to know how you got started with this project and some of the key challenges so far. I will also be travelling to Germany later in the year and would be interested in connecting.<< 2014-02-17 11:34 I'm temped to answer "well, fine! thanks for your interest, but what is this chat all about? I'm pretty busy" 2014-02-17 11:35 "or are you asking for a date? Yes, I'm single" ;-) 2014-02-17 11:38 they are probably interested in crowed funded projects in general 2014-02-17 11:39 she either is really personally interested in Neo900 and tries to help with whatever problems we might face. Or she's just doing her usual acquisition job and I doubt Neo900 is the right target for tandemlaunch 2014-02-17 11:39 they are probably not so much interested in the product itself, but rather in your methods 2014-02-17 11:40 why would I want to share my "business secrets" with them? 2014-02-17 11:41 they seem to be the networking-crazy types 2014-02-17 11:41 DocScrutinizer05: because people like to talk 2014-02-17 11:42 well, networking can easily become a time sink that's turning into a vamp for you personally 2014-02-17 11:42 tell them to sponsor EHSM ;) 2014-02-17 11:42 who's EHSM? 2014-02-17 11:42 http://ehsm.eu 2014-02-17 11:42 DocScrutinizer05: she's probably just curious. after all, your project is rather ambitious. 2014-02-17 11:43 well, maybe I could invite her to a irc chat 2014-02-17 11:43 I hate phone calls 2014-02-17 11:43 ;-) 2014-02-17 11:43 lekernel: that's the spirit ! there you find plenty of crazy minds that could hatch The Next Big Thing (or bring the world to a rapid but messy end :) 2014-02-17 11:43 hehehe 2014-02-17 11:44 DocScrutinizer05: yeah, the phone call and even personal meeting suggest that she doesn't deal much with this type of curmudgeon :) 2014-02-17 11:44 like bio hacking? (topic in recent c't hardware hacks issue) 2014-02-17 11:44 probably lacks job experience :) 2014-02-17 11:44 wolfspra1l has quit [Quit: leaving] 2014-02-17 11:45 bio hacking sounds great. "make your own flu strain, with a touch of marburg. all you need is on github. p.s. be careful !" 2014-02-17 11:45 apart from the fact I had to pester dig about that term, I doubt I really read you 2014-02-17 11:46 wpwrak: airborne aids 2014-02-17 11:46 dig translates to "Griesgram, Geizhals" 2014-02-17 11:47 DocScrutinizer05: well, generally the sort of people who don't like contact with other people too much 2014-02-17 11:47 (ambitious) yeah probably too much 2014-02-17 11:49 (ambitious) running into new problems ? 2014-02-17 11:49 I'm pretty lost with internal organizational problems atm 2014-02-17 11:49 people or parts management ? 2014-02-17 11:49 it not fires back that we didn't plan all details from beginning 2014-02-17 11:49 people 2014-02-17 11:50 . s/not/now/ 2014-02-17 11:50 ah, any details ? 2014-02-17 11:50 it seems like even the shipping of complete devices with case is not really consens 2014-02-17 11:50 people problems are always interestiong :) 2014-02-17 11:51 ah, custome issues. even better. 2014-02-17 11:51 customeR 2014-02-17 11:51 no 2014-02-17 11:51 .s/shipping/building/ 2014-02-17 11:53 I'm wondering if I still can represent the project to our customers. Seems I'm not competent to communicate what the product will look like 2014-02-17 11:53 is nikolaus involved in PR ? 2014-02-17 11:54 else, do you have any people who are close enough in the loop that they could explain it ? dos1 ? 2014-02-17 11:54 so with a 6 weeks delay to my own former plans, I now *really* need to think about whether or not I can do this project or shall cancel it 2014-02-17 11:55 6 weeks accumulated or 6 weeks projected ? (in any case, delays are normal :) 2014-02-17 11:56 my original plans said "2014-01-01: decide if the project is feasible or cancel it" 2014-02-17 11:56 and, how's the list of blockers evolving ? 2014-02-17 11:57 in any case, if you have delays or new issues, don't be shy to talk about them 2014-02-17 11:57 at that time around new year it looked good but I missed to look at the internal organizational issues and how to solve them 2014-02-17 11:57 people hate to be left in the dark. but if you tell them that something is wrong and what you're doing to fix it, they're happy 2014-02-17 11:58 the blocker is: we got no consensus about who's doing what 2014-02-17 11:58 and what the product should look like 2014-02-17 11:58 (org) ah, i thought nikolaus would basically project-manage and you'd do the engineering 2014-02-17 11:58 it turned around 2014-02-17 11:58 well, about who's doing what, make a list, get all the people who are involved or who want to (and have something to contribute) on the table and hash it out 2014-02-17 11:59 and he's not very interested in my project management 2014-02-17 11:59 so do you have mainly overlaps or mainly holes ? 2014-02-17 12:00 "not very interested in my project management" = he doesn't want you to manage things ? or, he doesn't want to manage you ? 2014-02-17 12:00 pup plain: I announce "while we're basically planning to sell complete devices ready to use, we also will offer swap mianboard for you" and he's not interested in sourcing of cases 2014-02-17 12:00 put* 2014-02-17 12:02 (cases) hmm. does he think it's too hard ? or just not interested ? or maybe too risky ? (QA, EU regulations, etc.) 2014-02-17 12:02 I dunno 2014-02-17 12:03 (cases) also, has he disagreed with you in public or in private ? if in public, what were the reactions ? 2014-02-17 12:03 well, he should explain himself a little :) 2014-02-17 12:03 he simply focuses on building the boards and ignores my requests to get case samples etc 2014-02-17 12:03 ah, i see. yes, you'd need these 2014-02-17 12:04 could you justify the case samples as testing that the board will work in cases customers source on their own ? 2014-02-17 12:04 when a helpful guy asked about what he should ask for at that company in UAE, Nikolaus answered "well we don't need any of that stuff" 2014-02-17 12:05 that way, you could defer the resolution of the conflict ... 2014-02-17 12:05 (it's only cases etc) 2014-02-17 12:05 company in UAE ? 2014-02-17 12:05 nevermind, not relevant 2014-02-17 12:06 since 8 weeks the only thing we discuss internally is friggin business stuff 2014-02-17 12:06 alas, that's important, too 2014-02-17 12:06 and no solution I come up seems feasible for GDC 2014-02-17 12:06 be happy that he takes care of all the bureaucracy for you 2014-02-17 12:07 solution ... for cases ? or other stuff ? 2014-02-17 12:07 sure, like the workers in sotchi? 2014-02-17 12:07 for business agreements 2014-02-17 12:07 sotchi = your fab ? 2014-02-17 12:07 sotchi = oolympia 2014-02-17 12:08 ah yes, the world mass surveillance summit 2014-02-17 12:08 "what? payment? be happy you got no tzrouble with all the papers!" 2014-02-17 12:08 that's roughly how i'd think of such administrivia ;-) 2014-02-17 12:09 that's roughly what you suggested I should accept from GDC 2014-02-17 12:09 sure I'm allowed to get case samples... when I pay for them 2014-02-17 12:10 I'm paying for the server neo900.org 2014-02-17 12:10 he needs to relax a bit on your budget 2014-02-17 12:10 what budget? 2014-02-17 12:10 aso that shuold come from the project. you don't have money for that 2014-02-17 12:11 isn't he sitting on some 67 kEUR + interest ? :) 2014-02-17 12:11 we have no contract, I have no budget. 2014-02-17 12:11 nota bene, all provided as "donation". so if it comes to that, it's burn money 2014-02-17 12:12 you don't need a contract - a gentleman't agreement can be just fine. but you need to have a common understanding. 2014-02-17 12:12 he can't pass any of that to me, it's on a invoice from GDC, every single cent donated 2014-02-17 12:12 there's no point in him blocking you from what you have to do 2014-02-17 12:12 exactly 2014-02-17 12:12 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2014-02-17 12:12 except for him defining what I have to do 2014-02-17 12:13 and getting case samples is not on that list of stuff he defined for my tasks 2014-02-17 12:13 why can't he pass things to you ? "werbeausgaben" ? or put you on some service contract and make that part of the materials he provides. problem solved. 2014-02-17 12:13 maybe the things would still nominally be GDC's property, but who cares 2014-02-17 12:13 such contract is what we're negotiating since 8 weeks now 2014-02-17 12:13 to no success 2014-02-17 12:14 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-17 12:14 ah, i see. what's the problem spot there ? 2014-02-17 12:14 as I said above, no solution I come up with is acceptable to GDC 2014-02-17 12:14 any details ? 2014-02-17 12:15 nah, complexity of suggested solutions from his side increases by the week, and when I write it down and start to implement it, he changes his mind 2014-02-17 12:17 6 weeks ago we planned to get a GmbH and transfer all donations to that GmbH account. GDC gets back VAT and UG pays VAT 2014-02-17 12:17 current state: can't be done 2014-02-17 12:17 can't GDC simply continue running things and just contract you ? 2014-02-17 12:17 I wasted 6 weeks or more to found a GmbH 2014-02-17 12:18 well, for how much? 400EUR/month? 2014-02-17 12:18 whatever you two agree on 2014-02-17 12:19 whatever is feasible. Nikolaus defines what's feasible. I usually agree that a salary that's sufficient to make a living is NOT feasible 2014-02-17 12:19 so you disagree on the amount ? 2014-02-17 12:20 no we agree that the amount needed isn't feasible 2014-02-17 12:20 ;-) 2014-02-17 12:20 so you plan to live on an amount you can't live on ? or do you plan to seek other sources of income ? 2014-02-17 12:22 I can't accept an employment that is some 600 or 1000 bucks bruto per month 2014-02-17 12:23 employment means I (and my employer) need to pay taxes and health insurance and whatnot else 2014-02-17 12:23 so you work for free? 2014-02-17 12:24 I did so far, hoping sending an invoice about some 5k bucks for R&D (estimated 9 months of work), plus a few bucks per device sold 2014-02-17 12:24 that's if you're an employee. if you're just contracting, the "employer" has no such obligations, at least not if it's only for a relatively short while (e.g., you can't do this for several years - see "scheinselbststaendigkeit") 2014-02-17 12:25 that's what we started with, but GDC doesn't feel like being able to do that 2014-02-17 12:25 dunno what sort of obligations you have as the contractor. generally less than an employee (via the employer) would have. but there are some. ask people who have worked that way, e.g., roh. he'll know. 2014-02-17 12:25 then came GmbH suggestion 2014-02-17 12:26 then a week or two ago, GmbH suggestion got cancelled 2014-02-17 12:26 that's by far the easiest approach. gmbh and all that is a LOT more complex. 2014-02-17 12:27 and all that is just the fsckng business part of it 2014-02-17 12:27 note that a contractor has no "minimum wage" or such either. you can just charge by the hour, however little or much that it. 2014-02-17 12:27 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-02-17 12:27 nothing about product specs yet, nothing about project management 2014-02-17 12:27 well, you have to start somewhere :) 2014-02-17 12:28 I'm fed up with it 2014-02-17 12:28 since 4 days 2014-02-17 12:28 would nikolaus still be involved in the GmbH ? 2014-02-17 12:28 initially we planned that, then he agreed that it's not needed. (just before he basically cancelled the whole GmbH idea) 2014-02-17 12:29 agreed ... so you didn't want him there ? or did he want out ? 2014-02-17 12:29 we both agreed that it makes no sense, since *his* margin per device is secured by him buiolding the boards 2014-02-17 12:30 or does he want you out ? it seems that there's a bit of a passive-aggressive war, but i don't quite see about what 2014-02-17 12:30 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-17 12:30 "makes no sense' = the cases, the GmbH, ... ? 2014-02-17 12:30 him being part of the GmbH 2014-02-17 12:31 but then he noticed that he cannot transfer the donations to the GmbH account 2014-02-17 12:31 so what for do we *need* a GmbH at all? 2014-02-17 12:31 so the GmBH would get the money, parts ordered so far, and project responsibility, and would then contract GDC for making the boards 2014-02-17 12:31 hehe :) 2014-02-17 12:32 yes, that's a problem 2014-02-17 12:32 yes, and I'm fed up with it 2014-02-17 12:32 DocScrutinizer05, if you want to stay in paperwork-land (I'm happy to GTFO to Hong Kong by the end of the year), a e.V. might also work 2014-02-17 12:32 but couldn't the GbmH be be daughter of GDC ? 2014-02-17 12:32 then transferring assets should be fine 2014-02-17 12:32 and is less paperwork BS than a GmbH, and you can transfer donations 2014-02-17 12:32 NFC 2014-02-17 12:33 sounds like an idea 2014-02-17 12:33 it's much cheaper to found, too 2014-02-17 12:33 look, all donations are booked to GDC bookkeeping. VAT got paid. Last year's bilance done. 2014-02-17 12:34 Nikolaus telling me he can't move the money to thr GmbH 2014-02-17 12:34 he can't move the money anywhere, since now GDC owns it 2014-02-17 12:34 you can invoice GDC from a e.V. 2014-02-17 12:34 it he can't move it he doesn't own it 2014-02-17 12:35 no matter wht our customers thought they are donating to, they effectively donated for a GDC project 2014-02-17 12:36 and no matter what suggestion I come up with to solve that problem, something doesn't work at GDC side 2014-02-17 12:36 so why not leave the money at GDC then ? he can still use it, can't he ? 2014-02-17 12:37 e.g., to contract a certain joerg for some tasks he chooses to outsource 2014-02-17 12:37 so when Neo900 is a GDC project, what motivation do I have to continue it? 2014-02-17 12:37 can a GmbH receive donations in Germany? iirc there are some countries that don't allow such arrangements 2014-02-17 12:38 do you care if its says "GDC" somewhere (instead of Joerg Ltd.) ? 2014-02-17 12:38 yes, that been the initial idea. But he insists on me writing an invoice for like 20h per month, for a timespan of like 6 months 2014-02-17 12:39 that's pretty impossible for +my* bookkeeping, and it doesn't solve any of the royalties-per-device issues 2014-02-17 12:39 what's the problem for your bookkeeping ? 2014-02-17 12:40 e.g health insurance 2014-02-17 12:40 and the royalties ... you could a) factor them into the invoice, b) negotiate them on the side. especially if they would be on "new" money, which then wouldn't have the "donation" constraints 2014-02-17 12:40 I eaither earn proper money or nothing at all. i'll starve and get sick from 800EUr/mo 2014-02-17 12:41 grab your favorite music instrument and go playing in the city center 2014-02-17 12:41 so you want him to pay you without declaring it to the authorities ? i.e., moonlighting ? 2014-02-17 12:41 yeah sure. To earn the money needed to work for Neo900 project 2014-02-17 12:41 that's about like it 2014-02-17 12:42 yeah, i can see why that wouldn't work ;-) 2014-02-17 12:42 but a GmbH wouldn't have solved that either 2014-02-17 12:42 no 2014-02-17 12:42 a gmbH has no income per se 2014-02-17 12:43 it's the "nothing at all" option 2014-02-17 12:43 but you couldn't dispose of its money for your own ends, so you'd have to pay yourself a salary or such, which would create exactly the same issues 2014-02-17 12:43 meh 2014-02-17 12:43 jekhor_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-17 12:43 or you could "steal" from your GmbH. but i doubt you're the first to think of such things ;-) 2014-02-17 12:44 we're through with GmbH either way, no matter about me now explaining to you how it been supposed to work 2014-02-17 12:44 be glad that he didn't to the GmbH. you'd be processed for tax evasion with that scheme 2014-02-17 12:44 #s/do/to/ 2014-02-17 12:45 fact been we very initially agreed on 5k payment and he later on insisted on me writing in the invoice that this been for 6 month of work, which I can't do 2014-02-17 12:45 naw, try to do that by the book. find out what you have to do to comply with the regulations, get the cheapest options where, and work on a contract 2014-02-17 12:45 damn, we did for the last 10 weeks 2014-02-17 12:45 DocScrutinizer05, what difference does it make, how many months of work it had been? 2014-02-17 12:46 or 4 months actually 2014-02-17 12:46 how long have you been working on the project so far ? 2014-02-17 12:46 lekernel: it makes a damn lot of difference when I pay 6 moths of health insurance or just one 2014-02-17 12:47 wpwrak: irrelevant. Ask how long I work for the project per MONTH 2014-02-17 12:47 hmm, not sure which date determines when that health insurance requirements starts 2014-02-17 12:47 it may well be that it only starts when you actually start seeing money 2014-02-17 12:47 mh. when registered as a freelancer, aren't you paying for health insurance a fixed amount every month in Germany, regardless of your invoice volume? 2014-02-17 12:48 lekernel: he probably isn't 2014-02-17 12:48 (registered as a freelancer) 2014-02-17 12:48 there's no logical reason why I should work 95% per month for free, for 6 months. Instead of 5 months 100% free and one month only 50% free and get paiod for 50% 2014-02-17 12:48 well, you need to be registered to write an invoice at all 2014-02-17 12:48 and health insurance payments start at registration (and have nothing to do with the invoices you write), as I understand it 2014-02-17 12:48 exactly 2014-02-17 12:49 and I can't write an invoice for timespan where I wasn't registered 2014-02-17 12:49 I doubt they would check that... 2014-02-17 12:49 all hell breaks loose 2014-02-17 12:49 DocScrutinizer05: you may pay more taxes if you get 5 kEUR in one pop. but besides that, it's not a unreasonable amount for just one month or work. or in fact 2 weeks. 2014-02-17 12:50 yes 2014-02-17 12:50 #s/or/of/ 2014-02-17 12:50 but i pay LOTS more of e.g. health insurance 2014-02-17 12:51 you can actually register up to three month later than you acutally started working, iirc 2014-02-17 12:51 so what you have to do is a) register, b) get ready to pay what they require of you. there may also be provisions for low income / startups they give you better conditions, at least for a while 2014-02-17 12:51 and tell you what: I'm totally fed up with this sort of discussion since I had that, geuss when and with whom 2014-02-17 12:51 wpwrak, provisions for startups are rotten 2014-02-17 12:52 c) we still need to solve the problem of why nikolaus doesn't want to pay in one pop 2014-02-17 12:52 DocScrutinizer05: what it his argument against just billing it all for one month ? 2014-02-17 12:52 the result of days and days of exactly this discussion been: so let#s found a GmbH 2014-02-17 12:52 wpwrak: NFC 2014-02-17 12:53 something about his bookkeeping and tax advisor 2014-02-17 12:53 well, he should explain himself :) 2014-02-17 12:54 aah. well, could be that you'd be more expensive than the rest of the company. 2014-02-17 12:54 you know, I start to fail assuming best intent 2014-02-17 12:54 maybe you'd have to split it into two parts to dodge any suspicion 2014-02-17 12:54 i think there's a good amount of confusion involved on both sides 2014-02-17 12:54 what the fuck is my problem with "rest of company"? 2014-02-17 12:55 well, you don't want him to get a tax audit because of suspicious shift in his spending pattern, wouldn't you ? 2014-02-17 12:56 tax audit = he basically has to shut down for a while and spend a small fortune on his tax advisor. that doesn't help anyone. 2014-02-17 12:57 fact is I#m trying to get that shit sorted since 4 months, i#m working for the project since >6 months, and I have *zilch* paper in my hands that guarantees me anything beyond users going after me with pirchforks and torches when GDC fucks up 2014-02-17 12:58 maybe the two of you plus his tax advisor should get together and talk this through face to face. you should find out what costs get created for you if you register as a freelancer and you should also define what amount of money you need per month to be able to continue working on the project. 2014-02-17 12:58 meanwhile, google dodges dozens of millions of euros of taxes in Germany :) 2014-02-17 12:59 also, define what additional payments you expect when it reaches production. put it all on the table at once, not bit by bit. that only confuses things. 2014-02-17 12:59 wpwrak: I offered whatever he needs as invoice, as long as it isn't explicitly claiming when the hours got done. When he can't come up with any invoice satisfying that, that doesn't give him an audit, then I dunno what's GDC 2014-02-17 13:00 lekernel: one EUR hidden from the state is tax evasion. one million is valuable business. billions mean that they politely ask you if you need to be bailed out, in case you're not rich enough yet. 2014-02-17 13:01 I'm not hiding any income 2014-02-17 13:01 yeah, I'm getting the hell out of Europe 2014-02-17 13:01 to sealand? 2014-02-17 13:01 Hong Kong 2014-02-17 13:02 I just insist on reasonable wages per hour and a simple invoice like writing one every day (some of the past years) 2014-02-17 13:02 as long as you don't buy a connection to moscow ... 2014-02-17 13:03 DocScrutinizer05: if there is no money for that, there is no money for that 2014-02-17 13:03 working for some 10EUR per hour is embarrassing 2014-02-17 13:03 larsc: eh? 2014-02-17 13:03 DocScrutinizer05: well, if his bookkeeping process requires you to declare having worked for months already, and pay insurance and possibly some other fees for that, you should factor this into the amount you're asking for 2014-02-17 13:03 wpwrak: the amount available to ask for is fixed 2014-02-17 13:04 then he has the choice: 1) ask you for 6 months and pay you more or 2) ask you for a shorter interval (as short as his tax advisor is comfortable with) and pay less 2014-02-17 13:04 we even published that to Neo900 customers 2014-02-17 13:04 we have 25kEUR to spend 2014-02-17 13:05 after VAT and all, there are 5k left for me 2014-02-17 13:05 see http://neo900.org/#donate "Phase 3" 2014-02-17 13:05 don't worry too much about what you promised to your customers. again, do the calculations. if you end up with something that simply doens't work, it doesn't matter what you promised. people make honest mistakes all the time. 2014-02-17 13:06 root_empire has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-17 13:07 dang, it works as long as nobody insists in making his internal salary policy look good 2014-02-17 13:07 when I write an invoice for a service, I *never* list the hours I spent 2014-02-17 13:08 WTF does GDC need an invoice where not only number of hours and wage per hour is listed, but even when every hour got done? 2014-02-17 13:08 well, let's assume you do what he wants. first, do you know whether you'd be obliged to register from 6 months ago or would it be okay if you register before making the invoice ? 2014-02-17 13:09 michael_lee has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 2014-02-17 13:09 "when every hours" he wants an hourly breakdown ? or "xxx hours spend from xx.xx.2013-xx.xx.2014" ? 2014-02-17 13:09 no, i won't assume such thing. Leads nowhere 2014-02-17 13:09 so you're saying there is no solution 2014-02-17 13:09 yes, he wants a hourly breakdown basically 2014-02-17 13:09 i.e., you have given up already 2014-02-17 13:10 yes, since 4 days 2014-02-17 13:10 hourly breakdown is stupid. he doesn't need that. 2014-02-17 13:10 exactly 2014-02-17 13:10 he doesn't need hours at all 2014-02-17 13:10 I'm a company offering a product, not a bricklayer 2014-02-17 13:12 it could be that he's nervous because of the "donation" state of the money, but this still seems excessive. it's like buying chips and asking the factory for a list of fabrication dates 2014-02-17 13:13 well, down to the hour. you often do get dates, though :) ... with week resolution 2014-02-17 13:13 I'm temped to cancel Neo900, create Neo900i and get another company to build the hardware according to my specs. Not hard at all 2014-02-17 13:14 it will be hard to convice people to donate again though 2014-02-17 13:14 yes 2014-02-17 13:14 you two should really get together and try to figure this out 2014-02-17 13:14 I'm sick meanwhile 2014-02-17 13:15 time to do that would've been 6 weeks ago 2014-02-17 13:15 i suppose all that communication has been by e-mail ? 2014-02-17 13:15 yes 2014-02-17 13:15 root_empire has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 2014-02-17 13:15 have the two of you actually ever met ? 2014-02-17 13:15 the thing I always try to assume in such a situation is not to assume bad intentions on the other side but rather communication issues 2014-02-17 13:15 once, in err 2009 or so 2014-02-17 13:16 wow ;-) 2014-02-17 13:16 see, that's maybe a reason why I get double nervous without any paper in my hands 2014-02-17 13:17 and I announced that, 3 weeks ago 2014-02-17 13:17 larsc: yes, i see two "difficult" people using a communication channel that's not very good for conflict resolution to discuss a complex problems where they have disagreeing positions and where both are unsure about what their options are 2014-02-17 13:18 yep. And I am at an end with my options to solve this 2014-02-17 13:18 root_empire has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-17 13:18 so maybe Neo900 failed due to organizational overhead being too cumbersome 2014-02-17 13:18 DocScrutinizer05: i'd recommend you ask nikolaus to set up a meeting with you and his tax advisor. prepare your numbers. ask him to prepare his. then you can try to find a solution. 2014-02-17 13:19 we have all numbers, they got tossed forth and back several times 2014-02-17 13:20 eh.. well.. it may be that he needs 'hours' and dates for tax reasons 2014-02-17 13:20 so you already know for sure that you'd have to pay those 6 months if you registered today (with the intent of billing work done in the past) ? 2014-02-17 13:20 that's for sure 2014-02-17 13:20 i also have to write invoices that way... what went down, when and how long. if not precisely hours atleast thjere needs to be a 'fulfilment date' and place 2014-02-17 13:21 'xx hours consulting project foobar - KW 23 - fooothousand euros' should be enough. 2014-02-17 13:21 often time periods are enough, yes 2014-02-17 13:22 sometimes you may get asked to provide a more detailed breakdown. maybe down to days, if they're really picky. doens't happen often, though 2014-02-17 13:23 root_empire has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 2014-02-17 13:24 I wouldn't even mind hours by detailled breakdown. Just i'm not willing to spread them across 6 months 2014-02-17 13:24 of course, it's silly for those last 6 months. to find a position you can agree on, you could try to get GDC to reduce the number of months. i'm sure 6 months is just ballpark number that's not a hard limit. the tax advisor would feel less good about 5, even less about 4, and maybe he't start to sweat at 3. then you could settle at 3. 2014-02-17 13:24 sure, because of the deferred payments 2014-02-17 13:25 while in fact I'm working twice as much each single month 2014-02-17 13:25 well, you could of course project it in the future but that would mean that you don't get paid everything now 2014-02-17 13:25 who talked about *now*? 2014-02-17 13:25 i don't mind when I'm paid 2014-02-17 13:26 you don't need the money after all ? :) 2014-02-17 13:26 I worry IF I'm paid 2014-02-17 13:26 well, if you don't care about the date, register now, then send a monthly invoice 2014-02-17 13:26 bullshit!!!! 2014-02-17 13:26 thought so ;-) 2014-02-17 13:27 you thought? 2014-02-17 13:27 i didn't expect you to agree with that ;-) 2014-02-17 13:27 aha 2014-02-17 13:27 then why did you suggest it? 2014-02-17 13:27 because it would conform to what you said you'd accept 2014-02-17 13:28 yes, *I* would accept it, but Nikolaus won't 2014-02-17 13:28 ah, why wouldn't he accept monthly invoices from now on ? 2014-02-17 13:28 that's ionteresting 2014-02-17 13:29 I will NOT write monthly invoices, for reasons I elaborated ad nauseum in this channel during last 60 min 2014-02-17 13:29 I will only write ONE invoice 2014-02-17 13:30 so you plan is to register as a freelancer, write that invoice, get the cash, then immediately unregister ? 2014-02-17 13:30 with only ONE work package, done in ONE month 2014-02-17 13:30 yes 2014-02-17 13:30 unless we continue to earn money then, e.g. by +selling* devices 2014-02-17 13:31 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-17 13:31 which is not what we're doing right now 2014-02-17 13:31 thus Nikolaus will not accept me invoicing him right now for those 5k 2014-02-17 13:31 obvious, no? 2014-02-17 13:31 i wonder if that actually could work. it's such an obvious evasion plan that i doubt they don't have obstacles in place for it. 2014-02-17 13:32 evasion of WHAT? friggin shit! 2014-02-17 13:32 evasion of having a company registered that doesn't have any income? 2014-02-17 13:32 first it'll probably take months to register/unregister, with an appropriately inane amount of paperwork and maybe a couple notar/finanzamt/amtsgericht/whatever visits (I quickly abandoned that way...) 2014-02-17 13:33 no, it won't 2014-02-17 13:33 well, live on welfare, work in secret, then register for payday, immediately unregister again, and repeat. i'm sure others have thought of that before. and german tax law isn't particularly famous for trying to let you get away with things, that is, unless you're rich enough 2014-02-17 13:34 I don't need no Notar or amtsgericht or whatever. I give my finanzamt a call and reactivate my tax number and company 2014-02-17 13:34 take an hour 2014-02-17 13:34 lekernel: so how did you do it ? 2014-02-17 13:34 wpwrak: you're mad? 2014-02-17 13:34 I've been paying taxes in France, which are also a mess, but less so than Germany 2014-02-17 13:34 aah. clever :) 2014-02-17 13:35 wpwrak: why don't you suggest I confess I worked for Neo900 last 30 years "hidden"? 2014-02-17 13:35 DocScrutinizer05: i'm not talking about you here. your case is more complicated. but think of someone who only works on things he gets paid for. 2014-02-17 13:36 I'm absolutely free to work on whatever Iike, and not charge for it 2014-02-17 13:36 and next month I'm free to decide that now I charge and write an invoice 2014-02-17 13:36 DocScrutinizer05: such a person could work like that, too: be unemployed, but work in silence, then activate the registration, collect the pay, then become unemployed again. and so on. you'd call that an evasion scheme, wouldn't you ? 2014-02-17 13:36 DocScrutinizer05, and wow, you seem to have a particularly efficient finanzamt 2014-02-17 13:37 lekernel: my company been registered before, it's just "sleeping" 2014-02-17 13:38 wpwrak: sure, when that person would claim to have worked 600 hours a 300EUR per hour, I for sure would suspect that something wrong there 2014-02-17 13:40 when however that person would invoice for an 80h a 60EUR which is what that person did every single time when writing invoice (except of course when proper 160h per month been invoiced) then I probably had a hard time finding anything fishy 2014-02-17 13:40 i think some of the difficulties may come from you trying to do something that's at least suspicious. that in turn causes issues on the GDC side because it's "weird". and if you have an unfriendly tax authority you don't want to appear as "weird". 2014-02-17 13:40 I'M NOT DOING ANYTHING SUSPICIOUS! 2014-02-17 13:41 and with "suspicious" i don't mean that it couldn't be explained such that it makes sense and seems legit to common sense. tax authorities don't use common sense. they have their laws and sometimes very bizarre interpretations of them. 2014-02-17 13:41 me working for 15bucks/h for only 15h per month, now THAT would be truly suspicious 2014-02-17 13:42 bah, stacking crates for golden delicious. that's a GOOD salary ;-) 2014-02-17 13:42 I'm not willing to stake crates for Nikolaus 2014-02-17 13:43 DocScrutinizer05, don't let the bürokrats mess with neo900. worst case, expatriate yourself :) 2014-02-17 13:43 for apple ! it's golden ! and it's delicious ! ;-) 2014-02-17 13:43 and I'm not wuilling to lie about that for Nikolaus 2014-02-17 13:44 yeah, escape to switzerland before they drop the "personenfreizuegigkeit". there, such things are very lean. you mention the stuff in you next annual tax declaration and that's about it. 2014-02-17 13:44 and I'm not willing to have such a ugly shit in my own bookkeeping, just to make Nikolaus happy 2014-02-17 13:44 you have mandatory health insurance anyway, so you won't escape that, though 2014-02-17 13:44 I'm not working for 10EUR/h 2014-02-17 13:44 never! 2014-02-17 13:45 wpwrak: please stop assuming stuff you don't know details about 2014-02-17 13:47 oh, i know how these things work in switzerland. i lived there and also worked as freelancer. very pleasantly easy. superbly light bureaucracy. they even let me walk off with some CHF 50k in taxes I didn't have to pay because they had changed the calculation period and i had just "fallen" into that gap 2014-02-17 13:48 I don't care about swizzerland, I'm talking about you claiming facts about my insurance status 2014-02-17 13:48 that was still about switzerland 2014-02-17 13:48 there, health insurance is mandatory 2014-02-17 13:48 here too 2014-02-17 13:48 (well, or at least it was in 2002) 2014-02-17 13:49 for now I got insurance. This might change when some of your statements of last hour would get too loud 2014-02-17 13:49 I'm trying to manage a rather delicate situation that can get nasty for me 2014-02-17 13:50 as i understand it, for now the state pays your insurance, but if you had a regular income, that would change and you'd have to pay for it 2014-02-17 13:50 and know what? the easiest ans safest thing to do for me was: ZILCH 2014-02-17 13:51 well yes, but it means that you can't have an income. that's called the "welfare trap" 2014-02-17 13:51 so probably that#s what I'm going to do: zilch 2014-02-17 13:52 the welfare trap works like this: you're fine as long as you don't work. but if you work, all you earn - and possibly even more than that - will be consumed by benefits you're then no longer entitled to 2014-02-17 13:52 rz2k has quit [] 2014-02-17 13:52 so to "get out of welfare", you need to make a certain minimum income before it's actually worth the effort 2014-02-17 13:52 I'm free to do with my spare time whatever I want. You suggesting I do suspicious stuff and spread my income across times where I claim I don't have any might get me into severe trouble 2014-02-17 13:54 and I'm not willing to deal with this trouble, neither from you nor from Nikolaus for sake of his beauty tax book keeping 2014-02-17 13:54 i'm not suggesting that. i'm suggesting to try and find a way to "regularize" your situation. i.e., make what you get a proper income, with all the consequences that entails. of course, this also means, as i've described, that it can't be arbitrarily low. 2014-02-17 13:54 yeah, sure. Will you pay for that? 2014-02-17 13:55 you already have my share in the pool. i see nothing wrong with a good part of that going into your pocket. 2014-02-17 13:55 or do you suggest I go rogue and abuse the down payments users did on Neo900? 2014-02-17 13:55 cocaine! 2014-02-17 13:56 isnt the usual concept, 'gimme all that money' and run? 2014-02-17 13:56 ah.. no.. that was investment banking 2014-02-17 13:56 sorry for the confusion ;) 2014-02-17 13:56 well, you consider them down payments, but they're called donations and GDC has been treating them as such. might as well use them in that sense :) 2014-02-17 13:57 >>Your donation will also serve as a rebate for a finished device.<< 2014-02-17 13:57 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-17 13:57