2014-02-16 00:00 nevertheless on your own peril 2014-02-16 00:00 might want to plug it to a DI-breaker 2014-02-16 00:00 there's one at the input (of course) 2014-02-16 00:01 I recall such thing saving my fathers life, more or less. no way in hell I'm going to live without one 2014-02-16 00:02 I got one, for whole flat :-/ 2014-02-16 00:02 my landlord and electrician been stingy when they refurbished my appartment 2014-02-16 00:03 for obvious reasons I never test it ;-P 2014-02-16 00:03 I've one for electric stove, one for sockets+bathroom+kitchen, and another one for all the flat 2014-02-16 00:03 * DocScrutinizer05 takes mental note to *finally+ get a UPS 2014-02-16 00:03 and a bunch of current breakers too. that's the default setup in new buildings in .ru 2014-02-16 00:04 well, here the DI is only mandatory for bathroom. No idea why they decided to run my whole flat across it 2014-02-16 00:04 eh? what if some cable in an appliance breaks and exposes you to mains? 2014-02-16 00:04 you die, no? 2014-02-16 00:04 particularly my lab / IT mains >:-( 2014-02-16 00:05 me? 2014-02-16 00:05 I'm rather happy my lab is protected by DI-breaker 2014-02-16 00:05 meh, I occasionally touch 230 for fun 2014-02-16 00:05 well. I know it's not as dangerous as rumored. but you could get less lucky one time. 2014-02-16 00:05 not anymore lately 2014-02-16 00:06 (UPS) I just work from a laptop 2014-02-16 00:06 sure, I got DIs for lab, to plug them between any DUT and mains outlet 2014-02-16 00:06 UPS batteries tend to die unexpectedly and are absurdly expensive to replace 2014-02-16 00:07 also, it's not fun hauling 5-10kg of lead when you need it 2014-02-16 00:07 (laptop) that changed ~1 year ago, when my T500 fan got killed by... DUSTER 2014-02-16 00:07 maybe 20kg even 2014-02-16 00:07 ha! 2014-02-16 00:08 headline: "DUSTER... A KILLER AMONG US?!" 2014-02-16 00:08 (batteries) yeah, I'd rather go for car batteries any day 2014-02-16 00:09 UPS batteries are silly "no maintenance" stuff, for the sake of the UPS case not having a door and service instructions 2014-02-16 00:10 yep, they have some kind of fancy H2 absorber 2014-02-16 00:10 and the whole thing has rather delicate chemistry which can easily break down 2014-02-16 00:10 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-16 00:10 a used car battery is way cheaper and prolly way better than those shitty lead gel batteries 2014-02-16 00:11 *nod* 2014-02-16 00:11 while we talked, I did the inkscape bitmap experiment 2014-02-16 00:11 they are even worse than LiIon when it comes to deep discharge 2014-02-16 00:11 and the quality is even worse. .05mm line is dotted (!) and jagged edges 2014-02-16 00:11 oh boy 2014-02-16 00:12 finding the best printer driver for such delicate stuff is not exactly easy 2014-02-16 00:13 which DPI are you feeding to the printer? 2014-02-16 00:13 600 2014-02-16 00:13 OOOH waaay too low 2014-02-16 00:13 is it? 2014-02-16 00:13 sure 2014-02-16 00:13 most consumer printers can't do >600 2014-02-16 00:13 you at least will need 1200 2014-02-16 00:14 that's why you need to go higher 2014-02-16 00:14 wolfspra1l has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-02-16 00:14 well... 600dpi dot is 42µm 2014-02-16 00:14 my resist resolution is 40µm 2014-02-16 00:14 yeah, but you don't want dots, do you? 2014-02-16 00:14 it prints lines if I send the job as vector 2014-02-16 00:15 like that .05 line you've seen at pcb I have shown you 2014-02-16 00:15 guess what it does internally for that 2014-02-16 00:15 that was made at 600dpi 2014-02-16 00:15 dithering or somesuch? no, I looked at it with great magnification 2014-02-16 00:15 it's just one dot empty line 2014-02-16 00:15 ok, it has an option called "HQ1200DPI", wonder what it does 2014-02-16 00:15 the dot size resolution is maybe 600 DPI, but to get a smooth printing at fine structures, you drive it at 1200 2014-02-16 00:16 or even 2400 2014-02-16 00:16 depends on printer 2014-02-16 00:16 hm. apparently "HQ1200" is not actually 1200x1200 dpi, just some kind of interpolation 2014-02-16 00:16 let's try it 2014-02-16 00:17 HQ1200 prints dots on higher pitch than their size would allow 2014-02-16 00:17 HP calls it HRet iirc 2014-02-16 00:18 some printers actually might create horizontal gapfree lines with CW laser 2014-02-16 00:18 but for vertical lines I dunno 2014-02-16 00:18 there seems to be some difference in prints 2014-02-16 00:18 I'd rather suspect they always use a dot matrix 2014-02-16 00:20 ugh. this transparent sheet has my fingerprints all over it. need a new one 2014-02-16 00:20 that probably caused one of those defects as well 2014-02-16 00:20 I think I've even seen laser printers with a virtual 2400DPI setting - though physically they all do 600DPI max 2014-02-16 00:21 humans are such filthy pigs, leaving their grease everywhere 2014-02-16 00:24 ooh right, printer paper also is dusty - fine cut paper particles 2014-02-16 00:25 DocScrutinizer05: http://i.imgur.com/WaU0KeG.jpg 2014-02-16 00:26 why the F the .35mm one is still smaller than .30mm one 2014-02-16 00:26 and those transparent foils are maybe charged with static and thus attract dust before you even feed them to printer 2014-02-16 00:26 they are 2014-02-16 00:26 is it? 2014-02-16 00:27 yes. also look at .25mm one 2014-02-16 00:27 hard to tell exact size from that photo 2014-02-16 00:27 both .25mm one and .35mm one are clearly wider than .30mm one 2014-02-16 00:27 I've verified it by measuring pixel size in gimp 2014-02-16 00:27 look at the very bottom, 0.45 one 2014-02-16 00:27 it's squished 2014-02-16 00:28 weird 2014-02-16 00:28 actually the whole column of numbers is just awfully distorted 2014-02-16 00:28 yep 2014-02-16 00:28 comparing 45 and 25 it looks nasty 2014-02-16 00:29 yep, they were identical size in .svg 2014-02-16 00:29 hm... let me try it on plain paper 2014-02-16 00:29 which direction is paper transport? perpendicular to lines? 2014-02-16 00:29 yep 2014-02-16 00:29 then it's probably cause by transport 2014-02-16 00:30 so, uneven transport speed can totally cause this 2014-02-16 00:31 no distortion on paper 2014-02-16 00:31 :-S 2014-02-16 00:31 well, let me check again 2014-02-16 00:31 print a fine grid pattern to check 2014-02-16 00:32 wow, I found the cause 2014-02-16 00:32 if I tell the printer I'll print on "transparencies" it produces this horrendous distortion 2014-02-16 00:32 even on paper! 2014-02-16 00:32 however if I tell it "plain paper" it does ok 2014-02-16 00:32 you easily can wrap the foil or use two prints to compare them by laying them top on top and then sliding against the other one 2014-02-16 00:33 wow 2014-02-16 00:33 so, let me feed it the transparent sheet and say it's paper... 2014-02-16 00:35 ohhh... found another cause of defect. you can't print on same transparent sheet twice. 2014-02-16 00:35 it gets physically distorted by some transport machinery right after the heating elements 2014-02-16 00:35 so it's not flat anymore and the printing is screwed up next time 2014-02-16 00:36 oooh, NEVER print on dirty sheets 2014-02-16 00:36 no matter what's the dirt 2014-02-16 00:37 but I have, like, 10 transparent sheets! and they're A4 and my boards are 10x10cm max 2014-02-16 00:37 ooh 2014-02-16 00:37 it's absurd to throw away so much sheets 2014-02-16 00:37 I can buy more I guess, they're not exactly expensive 2014-02-16 00:38 but it is still wasteful 2014-02-16 00:39 just in case you're really in a pinch: i've seen "holders" made of carton or somesuch, where you can insert the corners of envelopes or postcards or similar into slots of the holder to feed it to printer 2014-02-16 00:39 hm... that might work 2014-02-16 00:39 http://i.imgur.com/0MatVYO.jpg 2014-02-16 00:39 seems they're the right sizes now? 2014-02-16 00:39 don't consider using scotch tape to fixate it ;-) 2014-02-16 00:40 I've actually read guides on the web advising to use scotch tape. that cannot end well. 2014-02-16 00:40 it will probably roll itself on hot rods and cause a disaster 2014-02-16 00:40 yep 2014-02-16 00:41 scotch tape is neither heat resistant plastic nor glue 2014-02-16 00:44 I can maybe just feed it a sandwich out of paper+transparent sheet 2014-02-16 00:44 without any glue 2014-02-16 00:47 ugh no, it got WAY worse 2014-02-16 00:51 I guess transport is massively flawed by uneven thinkness or non-plane sheets 2014-02-16 00:52 and as you've mentioned, the foils are suffering and thus not plane anymore from heat of one printing process 2014-02-16 00:52 look at this: http://i.imgur.com/uZtGsl2.jpg 2014-02-16 00:53 left to right: new transparency; used once transparency; transparency+paper 2014-02-16 00:53 it is truly horrible imprint and probably not good for drum 2014-02-16 01:00 DocScrutinizer05: o/ I'm off to sleep. 2014-02-16 01:10 hah, I guess that's *all* about temperature 2014-02-16 01:21 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-02-16 03:23 Guest9253 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-02-16 03:24 Coyo has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-16 03:24 Coyo is now known as Guest5193 2014-02-16 04:15 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-16 04:16 rz2k has quit [] 2014-02-16 05:44 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-16 06:03 jekhor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-02-16 06:29 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-16 06:35 jekhor_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-16 06:35 jekhor has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-02-16 06:59 jekhor_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-02-16 06:59 jekhor_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-16 07:19 jekhor_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2014-02-16 08:55 bartbes has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-16 08:59 whitequark: how about putting your printer to the polygraph and first check out how it really thinks? a storage scope or even logic analyzer might go a long way in checking fixation drum temperature (from heating voltage), transport speed (from stepper voltages or even sensor output), maybe you even can analyze charging voltage and laser control? 2014-02-16 09:00 is your printer still a true laserprinter or already a LED matrix printer? 2014-02-16 09:02 seems I have a deficit of experience with disassembling to-the-bones some laserprinters. I don't actually know how they *really* work inside 2014-02-16 09:07 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-16 09:08 * DocScrutinizer05 guesses all contemporary "laser" printers to work with 600DPI LED lines of some 22cm width 2014-02-16 09:46 whitequark: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laserprinter#Charging has some interesting thin factoid about coating of photo sensitive drum 2014-02-16 09:46 Selen seems out 2014-02-16 09:46 Silicon is in 2014-02-16 09:47 >>Numerous patents[specify] describe the photosensitive drum coating as a silicon sandwich with a photocharging layer, a charge leakage barrier layer, as well as a surface layer. One version[specify] uses amorphous silicon containing hydrogen as the light receiving layer, Boron nitride as a charge leakage barrier layer, as well as a surface layer of doped silicon, notably silicon with oxygen or nitrogen which at sufficient 2014-02-16 09:47 concentration resembles machining silicon nitride.<< 2014-02-16 09:49 * DocScrutinizer05 guesses that the coating of photo sensitive drum is one of them most secret USP of any laser printer 2014-02-16 09:51 jekhor_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-16 10:14 dang, even my lowcost rather contemporary HP LJ P1505 works with real laser and a mirror wheel scanner 2014-02-16 10:16 http://www.feedroller.com/store/Service%20Manual/p1500sm.pdf 2014-02-16 10:51 OK, a few things I learned from service manual: *) media type directly controls fuser temperature; *) media (paper) humidity is relevant, even too high (or too low) air humidity may result in sup-par printout. 2014-02-16 10:52 learned from unspecified source: Toner is hygroscopic and thus ages, by adsorbing water 2014-02-16 10:52 ^^^ s/media type/ media type setting/ 2014-02-16 10:53 some sources speak of "180°C +/-10° according to media type setting" 2014-02-16 10:56 whitequark: suggestion: consider using thin non-transparent but translucent media (thin paper). It might create a light spreader layer causing way less shadowing even when light beams are nor perfectly perpendicular and parallel to mask 2014-02-16 11:00 when you have a toner thickness of let's say 0.1mm then at 30° angle between trace in mask and light source you already have a 0.05mm shadow seam on the side of trace that is next to light source 2014-02-16 11:01 when you have a light spreader layer (paper) directly on top of toner, there can't be any shadowing 2014-02-16 11:02 of course the paper has to be translucent for the relevant light wavelength. For UV this might get tricky 2014-02-16 11:05 a matte sheet of transparent plastic material might work much better, both for UV passing thru and for toner nicely adhering to the matte roughened surface. The surface structure creating micro diffusion "lenses" for the light 2014-02-16 11:06 NFC what's the trade name for such media, or if it exists at all 2014-02-16 11:10 for your major problem, the dust problem: your only other option except bathroom is building a mini cleanroom out of a glass cabinet and a strong fan with air filter that blows out all the dust from the cabinet thru the manipulator window 2014-02-16 11:11 by creating a air pressure inside the cabinet (all old computer racks will work for your purpose. They did exactly that) 2014-02-16 11:14 (since IBM PC - for "economy reasons, read "only one fan for PSU and mainboard - industry exactly inverted that principle, turning PC cabinets into giant vacuum cleaners collecting dust inside in a way that makes your real vacuum cleaner turn green from envy) 2014-02-16 11:24 whitequark: do you know if it is possible to find the source of spl_stage1.bin? 2014-02-16 11:35 pcercueiS2 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-16 11:43 pcercueiS22 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-16 11:46 pcercueiS2 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2014-02-16 11:54 DocScrutinizer05: hmmm, you tempt me to actually disassemble it and look at it from inside 2014-02-16 11:54 a pity I can't look into its firmware to determine what it uses for different specified media types (yay for proprietary hw :]) 2014-02-16 11:55 I can measure hotrod temperature quite simply: open its backcover where the hotrod is visible and point my IR temperature meter at it 2014-02-16 12:03 whitequark: (disassemble) I tried to find a service manual for DCP7010R but to not success 2014-02-16 12:04 I find it quite puzzling that HP P1505 allegedly is a class1 laser product. Probably only after mirror wheel spreading stuff 2014-02-16 12:05 I guess the laser itself must be sufficiently powerful to properly expose the area of 12 A4 sheets per minute 2014-02-16 12:06 I dunno shit about the sensitivity of the photo drum surface 2014-02-16 12:08 my service manual mentions too low fixation temperature as a possible cause of toner spearing and wavy effect in distorted character shapes 2014-02-16 12:09 seems the fixation unit works with a foil sliding with the paper and the toner under a pressure&heat plate that's fixed 2014-02-16 12:10 when the "friction" between the foil and paper/toner isn't high enough, the foil will not get transported properly by the moving paper and thus gets stopped by friction to the heating plate 2014-02-16 12:11 thus the paper and toner slip under the foil and toner gets smeared or even moved across the paper surface 2014-02-16 12:13 s/spearing/smearing|spreading/ 2014-02-16 12:13 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-16 12:20 dos1 has quit [Quit: Kabum!] 2014-02-16 12:20 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-16 12:20 dos1 has quit [Changing host] 2014-02-16 12:20 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-16 12:21 dos1 has quit [Client Quit] 2014-02-16 12:24 whitequark: reading this P1505 manual actually is kinda educating 2014-02-16 12:24 pcercueiS22 has quit [Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org] 2014-02-16 12:25 I see 2014-02-16 12:26 (thin paper) like tracing paper? https://www.currys.com/Images/News10/Jan/borg-step-1.jpg 2014-02-16 12:30 (service manual) found one on http://www.printer-volgograd.ru/service-manual-brother/1425-skachat-service-manual-brother-dcp-7010--rukovodstvo-polzovatelya-.html 2014-02-16 12:31 guess google.de won't show you even relevant results on .ru websites! 2014-02-16 12:31 it's literally second link for me 2014-02-16 12:32 oh... it's not a service manual actually, despite being labelled so 2014-02-16 12:36 DocScrutinizer05: http://www.scribd.com/doc/40067811/Brother-MFC7420-7820-DCP7010-7020-7025-Service-Manual 2014-02-16 12:37 this is a real one 2014-02-16 12:38 (paper) yes that's what I thought of 2014-02-16 12:38 I dunno if it's translucent for UV though 2014-02-16 12:38 prolly depends if it has whiteners 2014-02-16 12:39 I've googled for a bit and 80% of links I see are from people whose printer is jammed on that tracing paper 2014-02-16 12:39 (fluorescent substance converting UV to bright blueish-white) 2014-02-16 12:39 I know, yeah 2014-02-16 12:39 eeek, paper jam. not nice 2014-02-16 12:40 also it is apparently very slippery so really bad transport 2014-02-16 12:40 not stiff enough? 2014-02-16 12:40 yeah, might be 2014-02-16 12:40 what the *fuck*, that scribd link tries to extort money to download pdf 2014-02-16 12:40 there are foils made of transparent plastic but roughened on one side 2014-02-16 12:41 (download) been there, cursed that. then thought you better find your manual yourself ;-) 2014-02-16 12:42 finding HP manual been a breeze 2014-02-16 12:43 whitequark, scribd, courtesy of Y Combinator 2014-02-16 12:44 DocScrutinizer05: hehe, this site asks you to complete an "electrical test" to download the service manual: http://elektrotanya.com/brother_mfc-7420_7820_dcp7010_7020_7025_sm.pdf/download.html 2014-02-16 12:45 apparently to prove you wouldn't accidentally kill yourself 2014-02-16 12:45 http://elektrotanya.com/pics/testpics/46.jpg, ha 2014-02-16 12:50 DocScrutinizer05: http://fehu.whitequark.org/files/brother_mfc-7420_7820_dcp7010_7020_7025_sm.pdf 2014-02-16 13:02 DocScrutinizer05: okay, so... HQ1200 is in reality 2400x600dpi 2014-02-16 13:02 so how would that realistically improve over plain 600x600 dpi? 2014-02-16 13:03 I dunno 2014-02-16 13:10 pcercueiS2 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-16 13:10 you know, I'm not disassembling it. I can barely understand what its insides do, even with annotated diagrams 2014-02-16 13:15 DocScrutinizer05: remember our "how does it detect end of toner" discussion? look at page 58 2014-02-16 13:15 it's very cool 2014-02-16 13:18 dang, just closed it 2014-02-16 13:18 uh? now it's 404 2014-02-16 13:18 eh? fehu.wq.org link works for me 2014-02-16 13:19 The requested operation could not be completed 2014-02-16 13:19 Connection to Server Refused 2014-02-16 13:19 wtf? 2014-02-16 13:19 banned? 2014-02-16 13:20 fehu.wq.org? in germany? why? 2014-02-16 13:20 doesn't make any sense 2014-02-16 13:20 works again 2014-02-16 13:20 ... 2014-02-16 13:20 nfc 2014-02-16 13:20 nah, not in germany, in your server's fail2ban I thought 2014-02-16 13:21 I only have it enabled for ssh 2014-02-16 13:22 (and it doesn't list any recent bans in the log anyway) 2014-02-16 13:31 p.60: "organic photoconductor layer" 2014-02-16 13:32 *nod* 2014-02-16 13:35 michael_lee has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2014-02-16 13:39 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-16 13:44 I finally figured out what is wrong with my board 2014-02-16 13:44 sdram doesn't work at all 2014-02-16 13:44 it only read 0x01230123 2014-02-16 13:46 whitequark: >>The thermistor keeps the surface temperature of the heat roller constant by detecting the surface temperature of the heat roller and turning on or off the halogen heater lamp.<< makes me wonder if that creates some discontinuity when media type setting is "transparent" 2014-02-16 13:47 yep 2014-02-16 13:51 oh neat, maintenance mode 2014-02-16 13:55 pcercueiS2 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-02-16 13:55 pcercueiS2 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-16 13:57 pcercueiS2 has quit [Client Quit] 2014-02-16 14:11 DocScrutinizer05: 8.4.13 Paper Feeding and Ejecting Test (Function code 67) 2014-02-16 14:11 Function 2014-02-16 14:11 This function allows you to check that a sheet of paper is fed and ejected correctly by 2014-02-16 14:11 printing the grid pattern on a page, whose interval is 1cm. 2014-02-16 14:11 think I'll run this one on a spare transparency sheet 2014-02-16 14:11 yeah 2014-02-16 14:12 however I wonder if it regards media type setting in this test 2014-02-16 14:12 I don't think there is even a way to set media type in this test 2014-02-16 14:14 exactly my concern 2014-02-16 14:14 the test been designed to run on plain paper 2014-02-16 14:14 hmmm 2014-02-16 14:14 though, who knows 2014-02-16 14:15 grids printed on paper and transparency don't seem to match 2014-02-16 14:15 lemme take a pic 2014-02-16 14:17 http://imgur.com/zj4fZzH 2014-02-16 14:17 I don't get it 2014-02-16 14:19 I align them at one place and they're instantly out of align in ten others 2014-02-16 14:19 weird shit 2014-02-16 14:20 oh, I placed the transparency the toner side up 2014-02-16 14:20 are you sure your transparent foil is suited for that high-temperature usage? 2014-02-16 14:20 toner side down: same crap http://imgur.com/qGWPIJV 2014-02-16 14:20 sure 2014-02-16 14:20 stretch foil may shrink when exposed to high temperature 2014-02-16 14:20 (high-temp usage) oh yes, it was sold specifically as "transparency sheet for printing pcb photonegatives on laser printer" 2014-02-16 14:21 by mgchemicals 2014-02-16 14:21 make some markers on transparent *before* rointing/heating. check for shrinking 2014-02-16 14:22 uhh, won't that make drum dirty? 2014-02-16 14:22 printing even 2014-02-16 14:22 though I can make markings on non-drum side 2014-02-16 14:22 depends 2014-02-16 14:22 exactly 2014-02-16 14:22 and you can use scratches instead of ink 2014-02-16 14:23 it's a bit hard to make them precise 2014-02-16 14:23 oh, hm, I can just compare a sheet with an unused one 2014-02-16 14:23 is a pin to pierce tiny holes in 10mm distance to sheet 2014-02-16 14:23 sure 2014-02-16 14:23 crap, this was the last one 2014-02-16 14:23 when even over-all length changed, then you know what's up 2014-02-16 14:25 the fact that used sheets are not printable for a second run in my book indicates that material suffers and is not really resilient to the fixation heat 2014-02-16 14:25 you are right here. so, I guess I need to buy new ones anyway 2014-02-16 14:25 this might make the difference between a cheap and a quality product 2014-02-16 14:26 yeah it was $3 2014-02-16 14:27 per 5 films 2014-02-16 14:27 hmm 2014-02-16 14:27 I can't recall prices when I last bought that stuff 2014-02-16 14:27 obsolete info anyway 2014-02-16 14:28 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-16 14:28 buying some foils that are specified in DS for a certain temperature should probably work better 2014-02-16 14:29 particularly when that temperature is significantly higher than what you probed on your fixing drum 2014-02-16 14:30 hm, I know what experiment I want to run 2014-02-16 14:30 run that mangled foil through my laminator with known temp. 2014-02-16 14:30 123°C precisely 2014-02-16 14:32 http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Meetings/Home/Products/Transparency_Film/ 2014-02-16 14:33 I know. it's just a bit hard to buy here. can't find any in local shops 2014-02-16 14:34 >>Not designed for color copiers.<< .oO(???) 2014-02-16 14:35 nfc 2014-02-16 14:35 oh, troubleshooting -> wrinkles or creases 2014-02-16 14:35 page 204 2014-02-16 14:38 DocScrutinizer05: ran through laminator. 1) it removed wrinkles due to printer's feeding mechanism (four vertical depressions) 2014-02-16 14:38 2) the whole sheet is now wavy 2014-02-16 14:38 so, shitty film 2014-02-16 14:39 :nod: 2014-02-16 14:42 >>3M also recommends the use of thicker and more robust transparency products, such as PP2950, for hot-temperature or slower-printing machines.<< 2014-02-16 14:42 mirko has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-16 14:43 *nod* 2014-02-16 14:43 oooh take a look at page 215 2014-02-16 14:43 it has a comprehensive guide to fixing image distortions 2014-02-16 14:43 why is that not in user manual?! 2014-02-16 14:45 (film) no shops in russia seem to stock m3 transparencies 2014-02-16 14:45 at least search comes out with 0 results 2014-02-16 14:45 it's all Lomond 2014-02-16 14:45 >>A: We don’t advise using CG3300 in your color laser printer. Color laser printers have higher fuser temperatures than black-and-white laser printers. The toners in these two machines also are different. For these reasons, we strongly encourage the use of the following recommended color laser printer transparency products: 3MTM Color LaserPrinter Transparency Film CG3700, 3MTM Color Laser Printer Transparency Film CG3720, or 2014-02-16 14:45 3MTM Color Laser Printer Transparency Film CG3710.<< 2014-02-16 14:46 oh, no, found CG3700 actually 2014-02-16 14:46 http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Meetings/Home/Support/Tech_Docs/TransparencyFilm/ 2014-02-16 14:49 cg3700 is high-temp color laser printer spec'ed 2014-02-16 14:49 cool stuff 2014-02-16 14:51 seems like only some corporate resellers stock this 2014-02-16 14:54 and it's out of stock everywhere, too 2014-02-16 14:58 aha, found it locally 2014-02-16 14:59 whitequark: ((was sold specifically as "transparency sheet for printing pcb photonegatives on laser printer")) maybe that means it shall be treated like normal paper, not like transparent film 2014-02-16 14:59 DocScrutinizer05: but I *was* printing on it like on normal paper and it still got mangled 2014-02-16 14:59 like right now in last test 2014-02-16 14:59 or yesterday 2014-02-16 15:00 shit crappy product then 2014-02-16 15:00 that's what I wrote in my amazon review 2014-02-16 15:00 hehe 2014-02-16 15:01 get that 3M stuff, they at least give a 100%_satisfied_or_money_back warranty 2014-02-16 15:01 well... I'd have to be in US to get that, no? 2014-02-16 15:01 dunno 2014-02-16 15:02 I think that such warranty exists gives a certain hint on product quality 2014-02-16 15:02 though... might be a trick as well 2014-02-16 15:02 not by 3M though 2014-02-16 15:03 ah 2014-02-16 15:05 ideally PP2950 it seems 2014-02-16 15:06 thicker/stronger and higher fusing-temperature than other stuff 2014-02-16 15:08 or you find CG6000 2014-02-16 15:11 for PP2950 all hits are to resellers from ebay 2014-02-16 15:11 valhalla has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-02-16 15:12 CG6000 is same thing as CG3700 wrt/ availability 2014-02-16 15:13 valhalla has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-16 15:15 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-16 15:26 quite surprising they make a difference in their products for B&W and color laser printers, claiming that the color sheets are specifically coated for transparent color toner 2014-02-16 15:27 they don't say the color stuff doesn't work for b&w though 2014-02-16 15:27 I guess it's just more expensive 2014-02-16 15:29 the often mentioned "3M Transparency Film Compatibility Guide" is nowhere to find 2014-02-16 15:30 http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Meetings/Home/Products/Transparency_Film/ suggests CG5000 2014-02-16 15:31 unclouded has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-02-16 15:32 it also seems impossible to get real datasheets for any of those "home" products 2014-02-16 15:32 generally 3M site is a mess 2014-02-16 15:41 hmmm http://www.3m.com/product/information/Highland-Transparency-Film.html 2014-02-16 15:45 hmm 2014-02-16 15:55 anyway this market is a mess 2014-02-16 15:55 lots of knock-offs and nonsense 2014-02-16 15:56 that's true 2014-02-16 15:56 have you looked at lomond? 2014-02-16 15:57 highland selling 3M but you can't tell what exactly. Apollo selling stuff that sounds like 3M (CG3000) but for sure isn't 2014-02-16 15:57 nope 2014-02-16 15:57 e.g. http://www.lomond.com/en/detail/0703415 I can buy very easily 2014-02-16 15:57 and the prices are breathtaking - up to 1 buck per sheet 2014-02-16 15:58 I found 50 pages here for 980 RUB, that's 28 USD 2014-02-16 15:58 so, yeah 2014-02-16 15:59 designed for "normal temperature mode" 2014-02-16 16:00 >>Polyester clear film is designed for printing on black-and-white and several types of colour laser printers and copiers with normal temperature mode.<< 2014-02-16 16:00 so definitely no high-temperature aka color laserprinter 2014-02-16 16:01 no safety margin for your usecase 2014-02-16 16:02 duh! that stuff comes with a paper "mount2 to get removed after printing 2014-02-16 16:02 is that usual? 2014-02-16 16:03 hmmm 2014-02-16 16:03 not really, never used such film 2014-02-16 16:03 probably wrong product then, one sec 2014-02-16 16:04 no, right product 2014-02-16 16:04 hmmmm 2014-02-16 16:04 ahhh, I know what they mean 2014-02-16 16:05 it's a small piece of paper *at the front edge of film*, presumably to assist printer feed mechanism 2014-02-16 16:05 I've had it on that type of film before, yes 2014-02-16 16:05 I once owned a AGFA copier that used only pressure (no heat) for fusing toner 2014-02-16 16:07 judging by the springs used to push the two rollers together, it must have operated with several hundered kp/cm^2 2014-02-16 16:07 cute: it needed zero heatup time 2014-02-16 16:08 alas it weighed ~40kg 2014-02-16 16:16 anyway I love those Brother printers. They seem to really just work, particularly with linux 2014-02-16 16:16 a friend ahd a MFCdunnowhat with scanner, and it was a matter of plug&print/scan, pretty unusual particularly for scanners 2014-02-16 16:18 while damn HP needs HPLIP 2014-02-16 16:19 which is a PITA really 2014-02-16 16:23 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-16 16:23 DocScrutinizer05: yeah I got the brother printer for exactly that reason 2014-02-16 16:23 and you indeed can just get a ppd file from brother site and it'll work 2014-02-16 16:24 also: no DRM in cartridges. refill however many times you want, change any parts you want 2014-02-16 16:24 (although in the most recent printers that seems to have changed :( 2014-02-16 16:24 btw: scanner doesn't really work in linux due to some obscure changes in cups... the driver was written in like 2006. so I just use a windows xp vm for scanning. 2014-02-16 16:34 michael_lee has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2014-02-16 16:38 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-16 16:46 CYB3R has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-02-16 16:50 DocScrutinizer05: haha, the film manufacturer claims it's stable up to 200°C 2014-02-16 16:50 must have a different definition of "stable" than mine 2014-02-16 16:51 well, read the 3M FAQ, particularly about why they do NOT rate a temperature - it depends on 2 factors: true temperature of roller, and time of contact to media 2014-02-16 16:52 right 2014-02-16 16:52 the faster your printer, the higher the true temperature to still heat up "paper" sufficiently. For sure the heating up is not identical to temperature of roller 2014-02-16 16:53 lol, some fool tries to log in a ibot once again 2014-02-16 16:54 waitwaitwait 2014-02-16 16:54 I was browsing the MGChemicals catalog idly 2014-02-16 16:54 after looking at their crap paper 2014-02-16 16:54 and apparently they offer Fluorinert fluid, which looks kinda like Galden 2014-02-16 16:54 http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/cleaners/3m-fluids/ 2014-02-16 16:55 disregard "cleaner" part 2014-02-16 16:55 yeah, I think I know that, but not the right temperature 2014-02-16 16:55 I've definitely seen fluorinert in some galden presentations 2014-02-16 16:57 DocScrutinizer05: FC-70 3M™ Fluorinert™ Electronic Liquid FC-70 2014-02-16 16:57 A unique combination of properties and a high boiling point (215 ° C) makes this liquid ideal for many electronics applications, including high temperature heat transfer, vapor phase reflow soldering and many electronic quality and reliability tests. 2014-02-16 16:57 yeah, 215° 2014-02-16 16:57 I know that stuff, been there 2014-02-16 16:58 they sell to canadians. that's not a problem for me, I prolly can arrange 2014-02-16 16:58 what do you want to do with 215°C "Galden"? 2014-02-16 16:58 isn't that a bit low? 2014-02-16 16:58 VPS? 2014-02-16 16:58 well... leaded solder is 180°C 2014-02-16 16:58 I'm not that much interested in lead-free 2014-02-16 16:58 hmm, right 2014-02-16 16:59 you'll maybe have a hard time finding suitable components 2014-02-16 17:00 how so? 2014-02-16 17:00 seems I've read about components that cannot get soldered lead 2014-02-16 17:00 I've never encountered this so far. all is perfectly soldered by leaded 2014-02-16 17:00 perhaps some BGA have lead-free balls 2014-02-16 17:00 right, all have 2014-02-16 17:01 a tad tricky to solder this stuff with lead temperature 2014-02-16 17:02