2014-02-15 00:02 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-02-15 00:08 heh, i think i have the perfect connector problem to drive joerg mad: 0.7 mm pitch ;-) (we don't even have to go into any other details. that alone makes it impossible :) 2014-02-15 00:09 (been thinking of a simple way to make the OLED in anelok a little more modular. seems that this would require a little PCB then) 2014-02-15 00:12 wolfspra1l has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-15 00:15 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2014-02-15 00:19 ok, oo draw sucks 2014-02-15 00:20 placing small circles on a larger one, you can't resize the larger circle and the small ones would stay same radius but move their center points accordingly to the large circle 2014-02-15 00:20 try fped :) 2014-02-15 00:21 apt-get install fped may work 2014-02-15 00:21 prolly not 2014-02-15 00:21 ahm you're of course on suse ... 2014-02-15 00:23 lemme try something. You got a URL of .deb ? 2014-02-15 00:23 your epicycles simulator would require the use of trigonometry in fped. so it's not really easy (it's not a common pattern/operation in electronics), but doable 2014-02-15 00:23 ouch, no thanks 2014-02-15 00:24 I'd be absolutely happy when small circels' center point would persistently snap to epicircle 2014-02-15 00:24 or mastercircle 2014-02-15 00:24 hmm, here are some .deb: http://packages.ubuntu.com/precise/amd64/fped/download 2014-02-15 00:25 well, you'd make a vector r*sin(a*i), r*cos(a*i) 2014-02-15 00:25 amd64? really now? 2014-02-15 00:25 where i is a loop from 0 to N-1 and a is 360/N 2014-02-15 00:25 what do you have ? ENIAC ? 2014-02-15 00:26 Zuse ? :) 2014-02-15 00:26 NFC? 2014-02-15 00:26 x86? 2014-02-15 00:26 you're still on 32 bit ? wow 2014-02-15 00:26 nope 2014-02-15 00:26 but neither on AMD 2014-02-15 00:26 then amd64 ... 2014-02-15 00:26 amd64 is the architecture. intel copied it. 2014-02-15 00:27 uhuh :-P 2014-02-15 00:29 LOL http://wstaw.org/m/2014/02/15/plasma-desktopQK3389.png 2014-02-15 00:31 maybe it's easier to build it from sources ... ;-) 2014-02-15 00:31 now, is that thanks to .deb gets forwarded to that unspeakable "apper" that doesn't know .deb, or is it just because the .deb contains a amd64 ? 2014-02-15 00:31 or maybe suse has it ? 2014-02-15 00:31 tbh I don't think I want to go 100% parametric as of wpwrak's definition 2014-02-15 00:32 it's easy 2014-02-15 00:32 as long as there isn't a GUI that does elementary stuff like resize, drag, snap etc for me 2014-02-15 00:33 sounds like writing poems in tex 2014-02-15 00:33 it does all that. but you have to define the underlying geometry in a parametric way 2014-02-15 00:33 i.e., there's no grid 2014-02-15 00:33 and I mean: *pure* tex 2014-02-15 00:33 fped has a gui :) 2014-02-15 00:34 but you can also "program" it. with CPP and all that ;-) 2014-02-15 00:34 (but don't mix the two. if you want mix modes, don't use CPP because it doesn't know how to preserve that information) 2014-02-15 00:34 how would I create two circles that touch each other? 2014-02-15 00:35 you set the two radii, make a a vector (r1, 0) and attach to it a vector (r2, 0) 2014-02-15 00:36 then you draw a circle with center at the first vector to its end, and another one from the end of the 2nd vector to its beginning 2014-02-15 00:37 exact details depend a bit on how the geometry of your circles is defined, but that's the basic approach: you define the geometrical structure with vectors, then you put lines, circles, rectangles, pads, or holes on them 2014-02-15 00:37 if you're just using it as cad, forget about the pads and holes 2014-02-15 00:37 * DocScrutinizer05 feels like in school, messing around with an enormous clumsy compass and a set square and chalt on the chalkboard 2014-02-15 00:38 you can also turn circles into arcs 2014-02-15 00:39 well yes, but your drawing tools are pretty alive this time :) 2014-02-15 00:39 no, they are pretty formal it seems 2014-02-15 00:40 the workflow is optimized for translating footprint drawings in data sheets. there, you usually have "this many mm up from here", "this many mm from the center", etc. 2014-02-15 00:41 fped knows a bit of trigonometry so you can do also the more common other operations. 2014-02-15 00:41 hmm, it seems to not know about snapping 2014-02-15 00:42 something else it does it to let you vary parameters. you can have tables with sets of parameters. so you you, say, have five different circle diameters, you can make a table with them 2014-02-15 00:42 for the circle, drag from the start to the end 2014-02-15 00:42 or are you at the vector ? 2014-02-15 00:42 you also drag the vector 2014-02-15 00:42 then click on it to edit the parameters 2014-02-15 00:44 look, I draw a circle. How would I create a vector that starts at circle's center? 2014-02-15 00:44 how would I find the point where the vector cuts the circle? 2014-02-15 00:44 how would I start a new vector there that has same direction like the first one? 2014-02-15 00:44 the vector is your radius 2014-02-15 00:45 you attach v2 at the end of v1 2014-02-15 00:45 how would I create a 2nd circly at end of the 2nd vector? 2014-02-15 00:45 for the direction, you set your parameters accordingly. depends on what you want to do 2014-02-15 00:46 you click and drag from the end of v2 to the beginning of v1 2014-02-15 00:46 err, beginning of v2 / end of v1 2014-02-15 00:46 "set parameters accordingly" sounds like I'd be better off with a HP41C doing the calculations for me 2014-02-15 00:46 shall i walk you through it ? 2014-02-15 00:46 why do I need a CAD then? 2014-02-15 00:46 do you have fped running ? 2014-02-15 00:47 no, I think I'm not that interested 2014-02-15 00:47 was der bauer nicht kennt ... ;-) 2014-02-15 00:51 as long as the thing doesn't know a "pick from drawing" mode for arbitrary parameters, where you click near a significant point and it picks the closest*highest-significance point next to where you clicked and picks the (usually) X,Y from it... 2014-02-15 00:53 actually, i lied. it has a pseudo-grid it uses when you create new vectors. but it's only real purpose is to let you drawn vectors at 90 deg angles (so that you only need to edit one parameters, saving you some 0.5 seconds ;-) 2014-02-15 00:54 so I'd draw a circly anywhere, then hit F37 or whatever to enter "parametric mode" which pops up a window with all parameters of the circly, I click into "center x" and into "center y" then hit F38 to "pick from drawing" and click near the corner of a square... 2014-02-15 00:55 it still wouldn't solve the touching-circles problem in one step, but for sure in two or three 2014-02-15 00:56 I'd also like to have the option to either "pic by value" or "pick by reference" 2014-02-15 00:56 but all that's not parameteric 2014-02-15 00:56 "pick by reference" would glue the circle's center to the square's corner 2014-02-15 00:56 it's merely a way to use either mouse or keyboard to enter a number 2014-02-15 00:56 ^^^ 2014-02-15 00:57 ah, so if you resize the square, it stays at the corner ? 2014-02-15 00:57 sure, when circle#s center is by reference to the wquare 2014-02-15 00:57 square even 2014-02-15 00:58 okay, that's a big step in the right direction 2014-02-15 00:59 mind you, I'm just picking the value for a textfield (center X,Y) in circle's parameter dialog 2014-02-15 01:00 but that would break the reference, right ? 2014-02-15 01:00 by reference would probably result in something like "$object14.(origin+Y)" 2014-02-15 01:00 okay, so they have a parametric mode 2014-02-15 01:00 not just numbers but expressions 2014-02-15 01:01 who says a text input field can only hold numbers? 2014-02-15 01:01 and yes, my vectors are "origin" or such. only that i made vectors first-class objects, not things you extract from the things you actually draw 2014-02-15 01:01 it's much tidier that way 2014-02-15 01:02 (and if you really hate them, you can also hide them :) 2014-02-15 01:03 sorry, you lost me 2014-02-15 01:05 here is what your cycles look like: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/fped-cycles.png 2014-02-15 01:07 note that i actually made three drawings: one with the circles on the outside, one on the inside, one on the big circle. you can switch between the three 2014-02-15 01:08 or if you like chaos, have them all at the same time: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/fped-cycles2.png 2014-02-15 01:10 if you do't like the big circle, just delete it. since the geometry is derived from the vectors anyway, the rest still works 2014-02-15 01:13 (note that the 2nd picture isn't quite clean since the big circle is draw three times. you'd have to add another frame to avoid that. of course, the visual result is the same in this case. it would be a problem if you defined pads/pins, though, since they would overlap) 2014-02-15 01:13 nice, but quite hard to grok, and looks more like writing programs than like drawing 2014-02-15 01:13 yeah, nearly as intuitive as $object14.(origin+Y) ;-) 2014-02-15 01:13 NOT nearly even 2014-02-15 01:14 tzzz 2014-02-15 01:14 the little difference being that I wouldn't type a single char of all that 2014-02-15 01:14 you can actually get a look at the "code" too: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/fped-cycles3.png 2014-02-15 01:15 well, i just clicked for most things, too ... 2014-02-15 01:15 and do you actually have a primitive for angular iteration ? 2014-02-15 01:16 well, maybe in "copy" under "rotation" ? 2014-02-15 01:17 okay. now a challenge: change the number of circles :) 2014-02-15 01:19 in fped, you basically have to world views: "objects" and "instances". objects are what you draw, instances are what you see. by making this distinction explicit, controlling what happens is very straightforward 2014-02-15 01:19 actually oo draw calls that "duplicate" 2014-02-15 01:19 and it has a parameter "number of copies" 2014-02-15 01:19 of course you don't really think of it as object/instance but you just have fped "replicate" things for you 2014-02-15 01:21 change numbver of circles? easy! click on one of the epicircles, select "show tree", go one up in tree to find "duplicate", click on it to open parameter requester, change "number of copies" to whatever you like 2014-02-15 01:21 ah, nice. so they maintain the tree as well. good. 2014-02-15 01:22 what's ow? again not good enough for a hacker that doesn't use a mouse? 2014-02-15 01:22 can you "fuse" items ? that's an operation that often breaks such trees (it theory it wouldn't have to, but in many cad system that's what happens) 2014-02-15 01:22 fuse? 2014-02-15 01:23 so something that creates something new from two different objects. e.g., line between the centers of two circles 2014-02-15 01:24 sorry 2014-02-15 01:24 (that "loss of tree" is particularly infuriating in 3D cad systems) 2014-02-15 01:26 (i guess they do it because their tree would then become a loop-free directed graph. still not really difficult but of course getting messy) 2014-02-15 01:26 vector between two circle centers? easy: draw a vector, clicking close to center of first circle, drag til near center of second circle 2014-02-15 01:27 (in fped, the vectors form a tree. and the visible objects (lines, etc.) connect "leafs" of that tree. so the structure can be kept a bit simpler.) 2014-02-15 01:27 select by-value or by-reference mode for each the start end end point of your vector 2014-02-15 01:27 okay. now change the number if circles in the duplication 2014-02-15 01:27 still okay ? 2014-02-15 01:28 well, when you picked circle numer 8 as one of your vector's points, and it's by reference, and you then change duplication multiplier so that circle doesn't exist anymore, then you run into an exception that you need to think about how your program is supposed to handle it 2014-02-15 01:29 does it tell you that ? or what does it do ? 2014-02-15 01:31 your could: a) highlight the error/problem, b) convert the by-ref into by-val, c) make "duplicate" be aware it needs to create a virtual 8th circle which would move your center point of your vector to 360 * 8/7 2014-02-15 01:32 no, i mean what das ooffice do ? does it pop up a dialog to offer you these choices ? 2014-02-15 01:32 d) highligt the problem already on editing "duplicate" parameter 2014-02-15 01:32 oo?? knows shit about all that 2014-02-15 01:33 err, about what program are we talking ? 2014-02-15 01:33 oo can't even link objects, except by "grouping" placing them which simple locks their parameters 2014-02-15 01:34 to each other sub object of group 2014-02-15 01:34 err, we're talking about... 2014-02-15 01:34 (fped simply ignores things that don't get instantiated. they "come back" if/when the parameters are such that they get instantiated / "exist") 2014-02-15 01:34 joergCAD ;-) 2014-02-15 01:35 no, I think I'm not that interested. as long as the thing doesn't know a "pick from drawing" mode for arbitrary parameters, where you click near a significant point and it picks the closest*highest-significance point next to where you clicked and picks the (usually) X,Y from it... 2014-02-15 01:35 i thought you said it had references ? or was that also already joergCAD ? 2014-02-15 01:36 joergCAD, of course 2014-02-15 01:36 man, you are a piece of work ;-) 2014-02-15 01:37 oo draw sucks 2014-02-15 01:37 well, rejoice - fped can do pretty much all joergCAD would do ;-) 2014-02-15 01:37 that's more like what i expected :) 2014-02-15 01:38 i was rather surprised by all the impressive features you mentioned. it's not that they would be all that far-fetched, just that nobody seems to get them right (if they even try at all) 2014-02-15 01:38 I'd try ;-) 2014-02-15 01:38 if I were to code such thing 2014-02-15 01:39 i mean, that's why i use fped as cad. it's not really meant to be a general-purpose cad but it still beats the "competition" so badly that it's almost ridiculous 2014-02-15 01:39 I'd even try to come up with a way to pick closest point of a circle aka find vector intersection 2014-02-15 01:42 yeah, for classroom-grade geometry you'd basically want a "puzzle solver". freecad has that. it gets very confusing very quickly, though 2014-02-15 01:45 usecase: I draw a circle (watching dynamic update of bottom status line mouse-X, mouse-Y for center, status line radius for size). then I draw a "infinite" line (click next circle center for origin, watch status line for angle). then I draw a second circle like the first one, just this time I click next to the line way out of circle1 for center of circle2. Then I pull circle2, clicking next to intersection of circle2 with line and 2014-02-15 01:45 pull that towards circle1 until it snaps 2014-02-15 01:45 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-02-15 01:47 in freecad you draw the elements, then you specify constraints. e.g., beginning of this line is coincident with the center of this circle, this line is parallel to that other one, this line has a length of 100 mm, etc. 2014-02-15 01:47 then I remove the line (effectively making it just virtual/invisible) 2014-02-15 01:48 then freecad tries to find an arrangement of things that meets all the constraints. and it tells you how many degrees of freedom you still have left. 2014-02-15 01:48 funny 2014-02-15 01:48 the problem is that this very graphical approach gets messy very quickly because you have little constraint symbols all over the place 2014-02-15 01:49 already a rectangle with rounded corners is messy 2014-02-15 01:49 yeah, useless 2014-02-15 01:53 ooh, of course you need cartesic as well as polar coords for your lines/vectors 2014-02-15 01:53 fped has sin and cos for that ;-) 2014-02-15 01:53 karthesic? 2014-02-15 01:53 yeah, taht sucks 2014-02-15 01:54 cartesian 2014-02-15 01:54 thanks :-) 2014-02-15 01:55 sin/cos are nice to have if you need to go deeper into geometry. as i said, these are already things that are rarely needed 2014-02-15 01:55 when you have to start with tan() and arctan(9 when it comes to length of line, that really sucks 2014-02-15 01:56 tan maybe. atan shouldn't be needed. i think i don't even offer it 2014-02-15 01:57 naw, no atan. you have sin, cos, sqrt, and floor (for rounding) 2014-02-15 01:58 I think of the whole thing like a very special form of spreadsheet 2014-02-15 01:59 dunno 2014-02-15 01:59 and in this speadsheet each "object" (row?) must have a length for example 2014-02-15 01:59 my approach is "progressive" - you build the thing step by step, rarely "looking back" 2014-02-15 01:59 so you easily can mark several adjacent objects and do sum(length) 2014-02-15 02:00 well, in fped you can sum = a+b+c is may be more readable at the end of the day ;-) 2014-02-15 02:01 wtf is a, b, c? 2014-02-15 02:01 your three lengths 2014-02-15 02:02 uhuh, so you got them for the sum() function but not for directly reading them? 2014-02-15 02:02 if get them directly from the parameters that define them, not indirectly from the objects that use the parameters :) 2014-02-15 02:03 by the way, here is a "no frills" variant of your circles problem: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/fped-cycles4.png 2014-02-15 02:04 tell me how that look for a closed polygon you grouped from 53 vectors. Can you write the furmula in one max line length of IRC? 2014-02-15 02:04 while there are some equations, they're pretty intuitive 2014-02-15 02:04 now you're asking for a diagonal ? 2014-02-15 02:04 yay, typo galore 2014-02-15 02:06 well, talking about polar coords I of course allow all possible angles 2014-02-15 02:06 and indeed, fped doens't have a sum(field:field) function. it doesn't FFT, complex math, non-Euclidean geometry, prime number search, etc., either ;-) 2014-02-15 02:07 you'd probably write a true program with for-loops and all, to get the circumference of a polygon 2014-02-15 02:07 it's not even turing-complete :) 2014-02-15 02:07 too bad 2014-02-15 02:08 i think what you want is autocad. that's loaded with all sorts of crap as well ;-) 2014-02-15 02:09 it may take you a day to find the function that does what you want, but it's there, somewhere, amidst a gazillion of other once-in-a-lifetime functions :) 2014-02-15 02:09 well, no. I for now just would insist on the program showing me the length and angle of arbitrary lines/vectors 2014-02-15 02:10 if i really needed that sort of stuff, i'd add some include mechanism (besides cpp #include) and generate the weird stuff with a script ;) 2014-02-15 02:10 oh, fped does that of course 2014-02-15 02:10 see the example 2014-02-15 02:10 didn't you say your fped comes with outo-metering? 2014-02-15 02:11 I wonder how you can get the length of vectors when it only works for vertical and horizontal ones 2014-02-15 02:11 is that really useful? 2014-02-15 02:12 how do you rotate vectors? 2014-02-15 02:12 do you pull out your HP calculator? 2014-02-15 02:14 I mean, allowing both polar and cartesian coords for vectors can't be that hard? 2014-02-15 02:15 and maybe even length(vector) 2014-02-15 02:15 actually, it doens't show you the angle. auto-metering .. yes, here: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/fped-cycles5.png 2014-02-15 02:16 maybe even - DUH - *show* length and angle while drawing a vector (if fped can do such stuff like "drawing2 a vector interactively, with the mouse) 2014-02-15 02:17 yes, you can but you shouldn't 2014-02-15 02:18 fped is not for artistic drawing. things are very precisely defined dimensions. so you just enter these numbers. no silly trying to hit the right spot with the mouse. 2014-02-15 02:18 comsidered rather writing postscript by hand? ;-) 2014-02-15 02:19 (rotate vectors) here we meet our old friends sin and cos again :) 2014-02-15 02:19 naw, writing all the postscript generation in fped was bad enough :) 2014-02-15 02:20 can't have been that bad, to me it looks like it's not much more that a simple syntax translation 2014-02-15 02:20 than* 2014-02-15 02:24 * DocScrutinizer05 really woonders how wpwrak woud solve the following task: create a FPGA footprint for 800 balls, with the usual left out pads every now and then. in an angle of 45°, like ♦ 2014-02-15 02:27 first page of http://people.openmoko.org/werner/gta02-core/gta02-core-modules.pdf 2014-02-15 02:27 hmm? 2014-02-15 02:27 if you want to rotate them, feel free to do that, too :) 2014-02-15 02:28 that doesn't look like rotated-right-45° 2014-02-15 02:28 that file is a catalog of fped-drawn components 2014-02-15 02:28 well, footprints 2014-02-15 02:29 hmmpf, i closed the oodraw 2014-02-15 02:30 if you want more, here's the current catalog: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/kicad-libs-modules.pdf 2014-02-15 02:30 but the old one had more intersting BGAs. we never used them in real life, though. if we ever do, i'll move them over 2014-02-15 02:34 http://wstaw.org/m/2014/02/15/plasma-desktoprP3389.png 2014-02-15 02:35 2 of those 4:30 were eaten by starting up oodraw and by making screenshot and copy it to wstaw 2014-02-15 02:37 fped doesn't currently have a mechanism to "knock out" things. but you could just make a list of strips/blocks of pads 2014-02-15 02:37 the pitch is 0.50cm 2014-02-15 02:37 HUGE 2014-02-15 02:39 well, in 150 seconds I create one with smaller pitch. Unless you accept that pads and gaps shrink by same factor, then it takes 15s 2014-02-15 02:39 what does the pitch matter when drawing ? 2014-02-15 02:39 huh? 2014-02-15 02:40 that's meant to be a FPGA footprint 2014-02-15 02:40 FPGA *have* a certain pitch 2014-02-15 02:41 yes, but why would the pitch affect how long it takes you to draw it ? 2014-02-15 02:41 not at all 2014-02-15 02:41 exactly :) 2014-02-15 02:42 but shrinking the whole thing is one single action, while creating the footprint were like 10 actions 2014-02-15 02:42 3 for the 15*15 grid of pads 2014-02-15 02:43 N for removing some pads 2014-02-15 02:43 1 for rotate-right-45° 2014-02-15 02:44 now, let's assume you counted wrong and removed a pad that was meant to stay ... ;-) 2014-02-15 02:44 well, i you still have it in "undo", you'll be fine. else ;-) 2014-02-15 02:44 #s/ i / if / 2014-02-15 02:45 else I do what you'd have done for whole thing 2014-02-15 02:45 I copy the pad left-upper of the missing one, down right by sqrt(0.50cm) 2014-02-15 02:47 ooh. i thought you'd precision-drop it with the mouse ;-) 2014-02-15 02:47 tzz 2014-02-15 02:48 but you've almost convinced me to add an "else" item to tables :) 2014-02-15 02:48 I could do that as well, copying pos-X parameter from pad above, and pso-Y from left or right 2014-02-15 02:50 but calculating cartesian coords for "duplicate2 is probably faster than copying absolute values for X,Y from two other objects' parameter dialogs 2014-02-15 02:51 yeah, it does seem to get messy-ish ;-) 2014-02-15 02:51 almost near as messy-ish as fped when designing that footprint 2014-02-15 02:52 not even near 2014-02-15 02:53 oops, i forgot one step in the virtual 10 steps I claimed it took to design that: group the whole thing, for rotating it 2014-02-15 03:06 to elaborate: 1) I created a square of arbitrary size for my master pad (I could have used parameter dialog to make sure it has e.g. 0.38mm side length) 2) I picked "duplicate" for the already selected pad, entered the qty "15" and a X skew of 0.5cm (random guess, I could have written 0.5mm as well) 3) I selected the 15 pads and "duplicated" them 15 times with Y skew 0.5cm. 4) I clicked and "del"eted some of the pads, to make it 2014-02-15 03:06 look more real-life-y 5) I selected all pads and "group"ed them 6) I highlighted the group and picked "rotate", selected center for rotation center and the 45° preset radiobutton. 7) done, snapshot and pastebin 2014-02-15 03:10 actually the 2.5 minutes this took me were quite slow, since I never before worked with oo draw and thus had to find my way around 2014-02-15 03:12 ooh, you know OpenOffice (aka libreoffice) can run macros written in basic, python, whatnot else? 2014-02-15 03:20 hmm, could you use such stuff? http://maemo.cloud-7.de/hidden/ooFootPrint.svg 2014-02-15 03:23 ohwow, the pads even have rounded corners. wonder how that got introduced there 2014-02-15 03:24 http://wstaw.org/m/2014/02/15/plasma-desktopIT3389.png 2014-02-15 05:22 i think i figured out how to do a nice "else" :) 2014-02-15 05:22 been wanting that for a while already 2014-02-15 05:27 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-15 05:28 it just occurred to me that oo draw might know to import objects into drawings by reference 2014-02-15 05:29 which in the end whould be a nice way to do "macros" 2014-02-15 05:44 meh, of course not 2014-02-15 06:44 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-15 06:48 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2014-02-15 07:05 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-02-15 08:35 valhalla has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2014-02-15 09:02 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-15 09:08 I think rounded corners are simply a consequence of having a round-tip pen for the drawing 2014-02-15 09:08 which might even be the default 2014-02-15 09:27 gbraad has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 2014-02-15 09:35 wpwrak: http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/metrix-create-space-bluetooth-low-energy-hardware-workshop 2014-02-15 09:49 wpwrak: another BTLE project http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/rise-the-wearable-sit-tracker-that-motivates-you-to-sit-less 2014-02-15 10:05 nicksydney has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 2014-02-15 10:05 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-15 10:23 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-15 10:42 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-15 11:02 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2014-02-15 11:27 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-15 11:33 valhalla has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-15 11:38 xiangfu: Hi! I tried using usbboot and xbboot from xburst tools, but it keeps telling "no XBurst device found" 2014-02-15 11:40 And I've got a "JZ4750 USB Boot Device" (601a:4750) 2014-02-15 11:40 What may be wrong here? 2014-02-15 11:56 antoniodariuh_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-15 11:57 antoniodariuh_ has left #qi-hardware [#qi-hardware] 2014-02-15 12:11 the mystery of package from iceland: http://mailpile.is sent me my crowdfunding reward 2014-02-15 12:20 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-02-15 12:30 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-15 12:33 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-15 12:40 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2014-02-15 13:06 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-15 13:11 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-02-15 13:14 well, that deescalated quickly 2014-02-15 13:22 apelete_ is now known as apelete 2014-02-15 13:45 slowly* :p 2014-02-15 13:46 it was not nice of them to specify my nickname on the package. I had to convince post office I was whitequark. 2014-02-15 13:46 quote: "we deliver to individual, not address" 2014-02-15 13:47 nom de plume :) 2014-02-15 13:48 told them "it is a part of my email, idk why sender wrote it like that" 2014-02-15 13:48 was not in mood to explain what exactly "nickname" means, to a 50-something lady in the post office. 2014-02-15 13:51 you could have told them you're an artist and everybody knows you by that name, so it's understandable that they'd make that mistake. e.g., if you sent a letter to "madonna" with the correct address, i kinda doubt she'd have difficulties receiving it (well, her "explosives, antrax, and other unpleasant-surprises-from-weird-fans filtering team would") 2014-02-15 13:58 actually you're right, the word "pseudonym" predates internet age for a long time 2014-02-15 14:24 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-15 14:29 guys, I think I've nailed 4 mil traces: http://i.imgur.com/SX9XY0x.jpg 2014-02-15 14:33 didn't know they make nails that small 2014-02-15 14:34 and it only counts if they survive etching. which i think they're not very likely to do :) 2014-02-15 14:35 or is that milled ? 2014-02-15 14:35 no, that's photoresist on copper 2014-02-15 14:36 I don't think endmills that thin even exist 2014-02-15 14:36 okay. so i'd say the 0.10 mm will not survive etching 2014-02-15 14:36 the 0.15 mm might 2014-02-15 14:36 we'll learn at monday 2014-02-15 14:36 make sure you have a thin Cu layer so that you don't need to etch very long 2014-02-15 14:37 Cu is .035mm on that board 2014-02-15 14:38 oh, tuesday, actually 2014-02-15 14:40 I wonder why the first try ever I made with this piece of PCB had the best photoresist adhesion 2014-02-15 14:40 it was likely the worst cleaned one. hmm. 2014-02-15 14:41 it's like making semiconductors they work best if you add a little dirt ;-) 2014-02-15 14:41 hehehe 2014-02-15 14:43 though, the later tries don't pass the water break test 2014-02-15 14:43 water break ? 2014-02-15 14:44 really clean copper is hydrophilic. contaminants are usually hydrophobic (or otherwise you could wash them off trivially). 2014-02-15 14:44 so, you pour some water on copper, and if it distributes itself in a really thin continous layer, your copper is clean 2014-02-15 14:46 phew. invited corrosion. interesting concept :) 2014-02-15 14:48 well, the whole process is wet anyway... 2014-02-15 15:16 FDCX has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-15 16:04 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2014-02-15 16:25 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-15 16:29 wtf, is this a hoax? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrv78nG9R04 2014-02-15 16:29 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-15 16:31 yummy 2014-02-15 16:36 arielenter has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-02-15 16:41 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-15 16:41 mirko has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-02-15 16:41 FDCX has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2014-02-15 16:48 bleargh 2014-02-15 16:49 * whitequark stopped watching it immediately after opening shot 2014-02-15 16:49 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-15 16:55 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2014-02-15 16:56 FDCX has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-15 17:03 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-15 17:08 lekernel has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-02-15 17:16 arielenter1 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-15 17:17 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2014-02-15 17:22 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-15 17:33 wpwrak: http://i.imgur.com/gsUNFrD.jpg 2014-02-15 17:34 2 mil one almost works, everything else is pretty much perfect! 2014-02-15 17:34 it's a bit underdeveloped; I expected 2% developer to work slower than 5% one but it actually was faster due to some bizarre mechanism 2014-02-15 17:35 antoniodariuh_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-15 17:36 antoniodariuh_ has quit [Client Quit] 2014-02-15 17:37 arielenter1 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-02-15 17:41 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-15 18:15 viric has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-02-15 18:16 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-15 18:19 Coyo has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-15 18:20 Coyo is now known as Guest9253 2014-02-15 18:41 FDCX has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2014-02-15 19:14 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2014-02-15 19:14 arielenter1 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-15 19:19 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2014-02-15 19:54 arielenter1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-02-15 19:58 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-15 20:12 lekernel: good old propaganda ... :) 2014-02-15 20:15 apelete has quit [Ping timeout: 253 seconds] 2014-02-15 20:33 apelete has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-15 20:39 wpwrak: I found my perfect process, with which I can do 2mil traces 2014-02-15 20:39 http://lab.whitequark.org/notes/2014-02-16/optimizing-for-best-photoresist-adhesion/#try-9 2014-02-15 20:44 apelete has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2014-02-15 20:47 http://lab.whitequark.org/images/photoresist/2014-02-13/try-9-developed.jpeg 2014-02-15 20:47 nice. let's see how much of that will be left after etching ;-) 2014-02-15 20:48 oh, sure 2014-02-15 20:50 I don't actually want to etch 50µm traces, it's more a matter of having enough room for error 2014-02-15 20:50 and here I have plenty 2014-02-15 21:05 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-02-15 21:21 apelete has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-15 21:53 whitequark: wow, that's damn impressive 2014-02-15 21:53 \o/ 2014-02-15 22:10 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-15 22:23 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2014-02-15 22:55 lekernel has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2014-02-15 23:03 whitequark: did you improve your exposure lighting? 2014-02-15 23:04 DocScrutinizer05: nope, same old UV flashlight 2014-02-15 23:05 the defects on previous pictures can be attributed to flawed process 2014-02-15 23:05 the defects on this one are entirely present on photonegative, it maps perfectly to what's on copper 2014-02-15 23:06 that junk on the right, and .3mm line being wider than .35mm one -- all on the negative 2014-02-15 23:06 shitty printer. 2014-02-15 23:07 and I'm now really at a loss of what printer to use. :/ :/ 2014-02-15 23:21 laserplotter? 2014-02-15 23:21 maybe only a question of focusing? 2014-02-15 23:22 no more printing but direct curing of photopositive on PCB with laser 2014-02-15 23:23 DocScrutinizer05: that's a rather radical change 2014-02-15 23:23 only for the flawed half of process 2014-02-15 23:23 I mean if only this printer printed exactly what it is told, that'd be *great* 2014-02-15 23:23 why is it that nothing with processors ever works as it should 2014-02-15 23:23 oh, hrm. idea: instruct inkscape to print it as a bitmap 2014-02-15 23:23 you'll need a new one, incl new high quality toner and photodrum 2014-02-15 23:24 (toner and photodrum) toner is fresh, I bought a new cartridge 2014-02-15 23:24 photodrum is not, I've cleaned it in the past; it was covered with spots of hardened toner 2014-02-15 23:24 then remove it and give the rest a *good* cleaning 2014-02-15 23:24 looked quite awful 2014-02-15 23:25 I've cleaned it already, probably not good enough 2014-02-15 23:25 a new drum will be essential 2014-02-15 23:25 you think so? it appears that drum surface was not damaged at all 2014-02-15 23:25 drums degrade a lot 2014-02-15 23:25 at least not visibly 2014-02-15 23:26 new printer cartridge types come with drum integrated 2014-02-15 23:26 the photosensitive coating is not exactly durable 2014-02-15 23:28 and of course the rest of the whole paper feeding mech also needs to be absolutely clean 2014-02-15 23:28 just like any carbon brushes etc for electrostatic charge 2014-02-15 23:28 this one has cartridge and its "frame" with drum separate 2014-02-15 23:29 what do you clean drum with? water? isopropanol? 2014-02-15 23:30 vendor website says "dry cloth" but it's impossible to get it clean using just dry cloth, not when it was as dirty as it was 2014-02-15 23:30 back then I used water and q-tips 2014-02-15 23:30 drum? never touch it 2014-02-15 23:30 eh? 2014-02-15 23:31 is all I ever heard, frequently 2014-02-15 23:31 well, the vendor says I can clean it if the print is shitty 2014-02-15 23:31 so I guess it's not that awful 2014-02-15 23:31 wow, weird stuff 2014-02-15 23:31 ok. now it's not really very dirty. so I think dry cloth would work fine. 2014-02-15 23:32 the photosensitive coating is some special gue or nobody-knows-what 2014-02-15 23:32 selenium and... someshit 2014-02-15 23:32 but I know for sure there's a lot of selenium 2014-02-15 23:32 and any ditches or fingerprints or whatever usually are irrecoverable 2014-02-15 23:33 ditches sure. but it's not damaged 2014-02-15 23:33 at least that's what I heard, no experience here 2014-02-15 23:34 yeah, Selen sounds about correct for old ones. New ones are probably some hightech stuff pased on polymers or whatever 2014-02-15 23:34 or even organig stuff 2014-02-15 23:34 organic 2014-02-15 23:34 maybe wikipedia knows more 2014-02-15 23:35 ok, some stuff found on web says it's ok to clean drum with isopropanol 2014-02-15 23:35 worst thing happens, I need a new drum--guess what with its current state I need it anyway 2014-02-15 23:35 so gonna give it a try 2014-02-15 23:35 hehe, sounds sensible reasoning 2014-02-15 23:35 should remove any fingerprints / toner 2014-02-15 23:38 oh crap 2014-02-15 23:38 tried to use DUSTER on insides of printer 2014-02-15 23:39 it spewed out a bunch of liquid and there was basically ice everywhere 2014-02-15 23:40 also it basically emitted such a powerful stream it detached a spring from some part of it 2014-02-15 23:40 wtf 2014-02-15 23:40 should be called DISASSEMBLER 2014-02-15 23:44 DocScrutinizer05: anyway. it still works and test page is perfect. so... I win? 2014-02-15 23:46 well, yes. seems so 2014-02-15 23:46 * whitequark idly plays with that spring 2014-02-15 23:46 for sure you won some experience ;-P duster kills stuff 2014-02-15 23:46 on a second thought I think the spring detached while transportation or by previous owners 2014-02-15 23:46 and duster just picked it up 2014-02-15 23:47 good thing: it may have jammed it or something. 2014-02-15 23:47 you're aware that tones is microdust that's extremely hazardous? 2014-02-15 23:47 toner* 2014-02-15 23:47 sure 2014-02-15 23:48 you're also aware that printers are filled with it to the label 2014-02-15 23:48 there aren't any clouds of toner around, I just wiped whatever adhered to the drum so badly I wouldn't get it off without scrubbing and alcohol 2014-02-15 23:48 oh. you mean that 2014-02-15 23:48 yes it was not very smart 2014-02-15 23:49 however what's even worse is that the air outside my apartments is filled with same microdust from longdistance haul trucks going by all night 2014-02-15 23:49 so that is probably what's going to kill me rather than toner 2014-02-15 23:49 right 2014-02-15 23:49 suicide by toner - to avoid getting killed by chlorine ;-) 2014-02-15 23:49