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2014-02-13 00:08 <nicksydney> just read the blog from Pyra and it is 8 layer board damn !
2014-02-13 00:08 <nicksydney> the same like Neo900
2014-02-13 00:10 <nicksydney> anything more than 2 layer for me is awesome
2014-02-13 00:10 <nicksydney> :)
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2014-02-13 01:13 <DocScrutinizer05> hey, N900 is 10 layer, it seems (I didn't disclose the photos I _tried_ to shoot from my cut out bare PCB where I slightly cut into the PCB active area and it seemed under mag glass like a two times 5 layers showed on the edge)
2014-02-13 01:19 <nicksydney> wow..10 layers...blown away :)
2014-02-13 01:19 <nicksydney> what do they have on each layer....i know that one of the layer must be a ground layer
2014-02-13 01:20 <nicksydney> the components are soldered on top and bottom right ? so that's 2 layer taken and 1 layer for gound ..so that's left with 7 layers ..am i correct ?
2014-02-13 01:21 <DocScrutinizer05> I might have missed to count the two outermost layers ;-)
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2014-02-13 01:32 <wpwrak> with so many layers, that board will be hell to produce ...
2014-02-13 01:34 <wpwrak> very limited choice of factories, high cost, endless lead times, ... i have fond memories of when openmoko went crazy on their pcbs as well ... and then the one fab that could actually make them closed ...
2014-02-13 01:34 <wpwrak> i suppose you have buried vias and such as well ?
2014-02-13 01:39 <DocScrutinizer05> please reread
2014-02-13 01:39 <DocScrutinizer05> 8 layer used in N900 is pretty much standard
2014-02-13 01:39 <DocScrutinizer05> at least for 0.8+ mm FR4
2014-02-13 01:40 <nicksydney> DocScrutinizer05: so it's 8 layers not 10 layers ?
2014-02-13 01:40 <DocScrutinizer05> please reread
2014-02-13 01:41 <DocScrutinizer05> do you think i'd *guess* about the number of layers for neo900?
2014-02-13 01:41 <DocScrutinizer05> >><DocScrutinizer05> hey, N900 is 10 layer, it seems...<<
2014-02-13 01:42 <DocScrutinizer05> Neo900 is 8-layer
2014-02-13 01:43 <wpwrak> ah, good :)
2014-02-13 01:43 <wpwrak> it sounded as if you had ended up with 12 ...
2014-02-13 01:43 <DocScrutinizer05> the heck, it sounded *to you* like that
2014-02-13 01:44 <wpwrak> (guess) well, if the number gets large enough you could use some just to rounding errors ... ;-)
2014-02-13 01:44 <DocScrutinizer05> and no, actually I counted the suface layers on that N900 board
2014-02-13 01:44 <wpwrak> good :)
2014-02-13 01:44 <DocScrutinizer05> good? why?
2014-02-13 01:44 <DocScrutinizer05> does it matter in any way?
2014-02-13 01:45 <wpwrak> good for them and their sanity
2014-02-13 01:45 <DocScrutinizer05> I don't give a flying F about that
2014-02-13 01:46 <DocScrutinizer05> or rather, my notion about that latter is already quite dedicated
2014-02-13 01:46 <wpwrak> you should be nice to them. if you want, think of them as the little monkeys neo900 evolved from :)
2014-02-13 01:47 <DocScrutinizer05> they had some good EE staff and a real crew of douchebags for project managers or higher up
2014-02-13 01:47 <wpwrak> what's new ? ;-)
2014-02-13 01:47 <DocScrutinizer05> nothing really
2014-02-13 01:48 <wpwrak> actually, that's something i liked when openmoko took on the dash project: fic shut down fiwin, fired all the management that had screwed up things to royally, and only retained (a good number of) the engineers
2014-02-13 01:49 <wpwrak> #s/ to / so /
2014-02-13 01:56 <DocScrutinizer05> http://maemo.cloud-7.de/Neo900/media/pic+vid/N900-10layer/
2014-02-13 01:59 <wpwrak> nice :)
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2014-02-13 02:00 <DocScrutinizer05> I damn need a camera that can do microscope shots where the 0.8mm fill the picture
2014-02-13 02:01 <DocScrutinizer05> I hardly can see that stuff with a 10x mag glass
2014-02-13 02:02 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm still in doubt if it's really 10 layers
2014-02-13 02:02 <DocScrutinizer05> and no, I have no damn clue if Nokia has buried vias
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2014-02-13 02:03 <DocScrutinizer05> but I guess for a SoC/footprint the class of a OM3530 you don't get away without them
2014-02-13 02:04 <DocScrutinizer05> you definitely need in-pad vias
2014-02-13 02:05 <DocScrutinizer05> which Nokia is using everywhere - you can tell by the microscopic craters in the pads which have one
2014-02-13 02:06 <wpwrak> (in-pad) mmh, a bit suckish but i can see why
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2014-02-13 02:07 <DocScrutinizer05> see http://maemo.cloud-7.de/Gallery-N900-exploded/platine_01.jpeg
2014-02-13 02:07 <DocScrutinizer05> you'll easily spot them craters
2014-02-13 02:08 <wpwrak> xiangfu: heya ! question: do you still have any contact with wolfgang ?
2014-02-13 02:08 <DocScrutinizer05> in roundabout 90% of solder pads
2014-02-13 02:08 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer05: well, if you have them, you may as well use them ;-)
2014-02-13 02:09 <DocScrutinizer05> exactly
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2014-02-13 02:17 <DocScrutinizer05> hey, a totally on-topic question: how would you design a very simple detector for 2GHz / 5mW@50Ohm?
2014-02-13 02:17 <DocScrutinizer05> or rather: 1GHz..3GHz range
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2014-02-13 02:19 <wpwrak> hmm, something like bandpass + diode + comparator ?
2014-02-13 02:19 <DocScrutinizer05> no real need for bandpass
2014-02-13 02:19 <DocScrutinizer05> diode has a Ufwd threshold, even a Schottky
2014-02-13 02:20 <DocScrutinizer05> fwd-bias it?
2014-02-13 02:20 <wpwrak> sounds like an idea
2014-02-13 02:21 <wpwrak> or just use a photodiode ...
2014-02-13 02:21 <wpwrak> ... attached to the screen of a nice spectrum analyzer ;-)
2014-02-13 02:21 <DocScrutinizer05> or would I rather use a HF-transistor and bias that to the point where it just starts opening
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2014-02-13 02:22 <DocScrutinizer05> C-E should draw noticeable current that can get smoothed by an e.g 1nF in parellel
2014-02-13 02:22 <DocScrutinizer05> only when RF is present
2014-02-13 02:23 <DocScrutinizer05> a darlington with a 100MOhm from basis to collector should do, eh?
2014-02-13 02:24 <DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak: you are always cheerful when you can play with spice ;-)
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2014-02-13 02:28 <DocScrutinizer05> input -> 10k -> 10pF -> (A) darlington base; (A) -> 100MR -> darlington collector -> (B) -> output; (B) -> 47k -> +Vio; Darlington Emitter -> GND; (B) -> 10nF -> GND
2014-02-13 02:29 <DocScrutinizer05> input: sweep 600MHz..2800MHz, 5mW@50R
2014-02-13 02:30 <DocScrutinizer05> output: high-Z
2014-02-13 02:31 * DocScrutinizer05 wonders if darlingtons with Ft:3GHz are commonly available nowadays
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2014-02-13 02:34 <wpwrak> qucs ... no spice for me, thanks ;-)
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2014-02-13 02:37 <DocScrutinizer05> that 100M resistor actually should be 47k * amplification_darlington * 20
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2014-02-13 02:39 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm afraid that the darlington basis acts like a rectifier which would create a negative bias on the 10pF, so the darlington would again operate "on the edge" after first 2 or 3 sine waves from input
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2014-02-13 02:40 <DocScrutinizer05> mmpf, my bouncer went offline
2014-02-13 02:42 <wpwrak> does your bouncer kick you out of the lab when you've had too much solder fumes ? :)
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2014-02-13 02:42 <DocScrutinizer05> no, it makes my N900 create funny clicking noises
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2014-02-13 02:46 <DocScrutinizer05> o.O
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2014-02-13 02:49 <DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak: maybe using a mosfet would avoid such rectifier effect creating negative bias on the 10pF DC-blocker capacitor?
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2014-02-13 02:52 <wpwrak> you're already way beyond my knowledge there :)
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2014-02-13 02:55 <DocScrutinizer05> it's pretty simple: when input is "high2, the 10pF will charge positive on input and negative on basis side, due to current flowing from input into basis-emitter diode(s). Now ehen input goes GND level or even negative, the capacitor will pull down the basis but no current will flow out of basis thru capacitor and series R to input
2014-02-13 02:55 <DocScrutinizer05> so the negative bias on darlington basis will sustain
2014-02-13 02:56 <DocScrutinizer05> effectively compensating the positive bias created by the 100M
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2014-02-13 03:59 <nicksydney> DocScrutinizer05: what is this http://maemo.cloud-7.de/Gallery-N900-exploded/platine_01.jpeg ...looks sexy
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2014-02-13 05:11 <DocScrutinizer05> that's what the name says: a N900 bare PCB
2014-02-13 05:11 <DocScrutinizer05> http://maemo.cloud-7.de/Neo900/media/pic+vid/N900-10layer/
2014-02-13 05:20 <DocScrutinizer05> the inner 7 layers (4 copper, 2 thin and core thick isolation) make for the flex cable that connects the mainboard to the daughterboard
2014-02-13 05:22 <DocScrutinizer05> at least I guess how it's built
2014-02-13 05:22 <DocScrutinizer05> at least I guess that's how it's built
2014-02-13 05:29 <xiangfu> wpwrak: Hi I just find him on IRC and another email address.
2014-02-13 05:31 <xiangfu> have you try message him by IRC?
2014-02-13 05:32 <nicksydney> DocScrutinizer05: sorry for stupid question but when you say N900 are you referring to Neo or Nokia ?
2014-02-13 05:33 <DocScrutinizer05> N900 is Nokia
2014-02-13 05:33 <nicksydney> gotcha...that's why i was confused back and forth :)
2014-02-13 05:33 <DocScrutinizer05> Nokia never built a Neo device
2014-02-13 05:34 <nicksydney> both has got the N infront so just want to make sure
2014-02-13 05:34 <nicksydney> and both has the 900 too :)
2014-02-13 05:35 <DocScrutinizer05> and both look damn similar
2014-02-13 05:37 * DocScrutinizer05 wonders WTF for are those pads above "E" key
2014-02-13 05:37 <DocScrutinizer05> they are unused in N900
2014-02-13 05:38 <DocScrutinizer05> err, actzally above "W" key
2014-02-13 05:38 <DocScrutinizer05> (3rd from left, upper row)
2014-02-13 05:42 <nicksydney> no idea :
2014-02-13 05:42 <nicksydney> :)
2014-02-13 05:43 <nicksydney> this Nokia pcb design is available ?
2014-02-13 05:46 <DocScrutinizer05> err, available?
2014-02-13 05:47 <DocScrutinizer05> please rephrase!
2014-02-13 05:47 <nicksydney> the files .. the schematics like neo900
2014-02-13 05:47 <DocScrutinizer05> Nokia_N900_RX-51_Schematics.pdf
2014-02-13 05:47 <nicksydney> that pic you took looks  like a brand new pcb so was wondering did you produce that ?
2014-02-13 05:47 <nicksydney> i mean fabricate that
2014-02-13 05:48 <DocScrutinizer05> no
2014-02-13 05:48 <nicksydney> http://n900.googlecode.com/git-history/70ce5dfd7e8baa45848b493154a086814af1af24/n900-Backup-2-7-2012/Nokia_N900_RX-51_Schematics.pdf
2014-02-13 05:48 <DocScrutinizer05> otherwise I wouldn't wonder if it's 10 layer
2014-02-13 05:50 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, that one
2014-02-13 05:52 <nicksydney> does this mean that the software than ran on Nokia 900 was all open sourced ?
2014-02-13 05:53 <nicksydney> or only the kernel?
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2014-02-13 06:46 <DocScrutinizer05> neither of both is true
2014-02-13 06:50 <whitequark> haha https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BgRs_I-CIAErVKg.png:large
2014-02-13 06:52 <whitequark> headline translation: "Tolyatti citizen went to Ivanovo, lost his ID, came to visit a retiree, then died and decomposed. / Meanwhile, the retiree continued drinking."
2014-02-13 07:42 <larsc> sounds like it all happend within a day
2014-02-13 07:50 <whitequark> within less than a week
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2014-02-13 09:34 <whitequark> http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-venezuela-protests-20140211,0,7650638.story
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2014-02-13 14:55 <DocScrutinizer05> LOL! http://privatepaste.com/a50744fd05 (for German readers)
2014-02-13 14:56 <DocScrutinizer05> though, I wonder if that's really German
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2014-02-13 14:58 <DocScrutinizer05> from: xxxxxxxxx@mail4.doshisha.ac.jp
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2014-02-13 14:59 <DocScrutinizer05> I wonder what a weird kind of spam is *this* .oO(???)
2014-02-13 15:03 <whitequark> it's just regular scammers. I get that in English, Russian, Japanese, ... all the time
2014-02-13 15:03 <whitequark> Chinese also, I think
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2014-02-13 16:29 <whitequark> hrm. I can reliably reproduce 6 mil traces with my photoresist process, but not lower.
2014-02-13 16:29 * whitequark wonders if he should keep trying or is that overkill
2014-02-13 16:29 <whitequark> s,lower,thinner,
2014-02-13 16:30 <whitequark> 4 mil almost works. 2 mil really isn't.
2014-02-13 16:31 <whitequark> http://i.imgur.com/uadReL4.jpg
2014-02-13 16:43 <whitequark> s,isn't,doesn't,
2014-02-13 16:45 <viric> what is a mil?
2014-02-13 16:45 <whitequark> 6 mil = .15mm; 4 mil = .1mm; 2 mil = .05mm
2014-02-13 16:46 <whitequark> mil is 1/1000"
2014-02-13 16:46 <viric> ah
2014-02-13 16:47 <viric> thank you
2014-02-13 16:47 <whitequark> np
2014-02-13 16:48 <DocScrutinizer05> I heard you can flatten gold to around 5 atom layers thickness ;-P
2014-02-13 16:50 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: is that your friendly way of saying "overkill"? ;)
2014-02-13 16:50 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm, looking at that sample, it's probably not
2014-02-13 16:51 <whitequark> nevermind the defects in it, it's random dust and not really related to process
2014-02-13 16:51 <whitequark> dust and/or shitty negative. neither matters for what I'm working on now
2014-02-13 16:52 <DocScrutinizer05> aah, then
2014-02-13 16:52 <whitequark> but the .1mm line *is* broken in a lot of plces
2014-02-13 16:52 <whitequark> and .05mm is simply absent
2014-02-13 16:52 <whitequark> I've actually had it on earlier samples, dunno why that stopped working while everything else improved
2014-02-13 16:53 <DocScrutinizer05> well, in that range you already need to compensate for undercutting
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2014-02-13 16:53 <whitequark> I still have a few ideas to try; soaking board in NaOH for 10min to remove all organic crap from it; using lowest grit sandpaper for better surface finish and contaminant removal
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2014-02-13 16:53 <whitequark> (undercutting) yeah... copper thickness is .035mm
2014-02-13 16:54 <whitequark> so .05mm actually hardly makes sense there
2014-02-13 16:54 <DocScrutinizer05> photoresist thickness
2014-02-13 16:54 <whitequark> oh?
2014-02-13 16:54 <DocScrutinizer05> light diffuses in photoresist as well
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2014-02-13 16:54 <whitequark> diffuses, hmm...
2014-02-13 16:55 <DocScrutinizer05> gets reflected from copper
2014-02-13 16:55 <whitequark> you know what, let me measure the actual line width I have there. the photo is almost perfectly parallel to camera sensor so it's easy
2014-02-13 16:55 <DocScrutinizer05> doesn't come in ideally parallel
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2014-02-13 16:56 <whitequark> right.
2014-02-13 16:56 <DocScrutinizer05> toner tends to build heaps
2014-02-13 16:56 <DocScrutinizer05> so isn't plane
2014-02-13 16:56 <whitequark> no, that was taken care of with "toner density"
2014-02-13 16:57 <whitequark> see http://localhost:4000/notes/2014-02-13/negative-photoresist-calibration-mask/
2014-02-13 16:57 <whitequark> er
2014-02-13 16:57 <DocScrutinizer05> though, that probably depends on printer
2014-02-13 16:57 <whitequark> http://lab.whitequark.org/notes/2014-02-13/negative-photoresist-calibration-mask/
2014-02-13 16:58 <DocScrutinizer05> anyway, when your photoresist is considerably thicker than wide, it will probably simply brake off from copper
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2014-02-13 16:59 <DocScrutinizer05> there's probably a natural physical limit of resolution you can achive with a particular photoresist
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2014-02-13 16:59 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: before "density toner": http://lab.whitequark.org/images/photoresist/calibration-mask-printed.jpeg after: http://lab.whitequark.org/images/photoresist/calibration-mask-dense.jpeg
2014-02-13 17:01 <DocScrutinizer05> ooh, forgot you're using photonegative
2014-02-13 17:03 * DocScrutinizer05 points his laser through a 0.3mm pitch stencil and watches the funny patterns on the wall
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2014-02-13 17:04 <whitequark> what's that stencil for? bga?
2014-02-13 17:05 <DocScrutinizer05> looks like a monster FPGA
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2014-02-13 17:08 <DocScrutinizer05> http://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/20140213_002.jpg
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2014-02-13 17:09 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: neat
2014-02-13 17:09 <whitequark> by the way, you were right
2014-02-13 17:09 <whitequark> the actual trace widths are often off by .05-.1mm depending on their position
2014-02-13 17:10 <whitequark> the centermost trace is really damn wide
2014-02-13 17:10 <whitequark> I need to make a better light source
2014-02-13 17:14 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: also, thickness of developed resist is somewhere around .04mm if I'm using my caliper right
2014-02-13 17:15 <whitequark> so .05mm trace means it would be almost rectangular in section! no wonder it doesn't work well
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2014-02-13 17:32 <DocScrutinizer05> :nod:
2014-02-13 17:33 <DocScrutinizer05> with copper you'll get similar problems
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2014-02-13 17:35 <DocScrutinizer05> you need to control your etching process a factor 50 better than you're able to do right now, to etch a 0.05mm wide trace into standard FR4 material
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2014-02-13 17:41 <DocScrutinizer05> copper fpild for up to 1.55mm are generally 17µm it seems
2014-02-13 17:41 <DocScrutinizer05> foils*
2014-02-13 17:42 <DocScrutinizer05> but then you start to have 35 or even 70µm
2014-02-13 17:45 <DocScrutinizer05> http://wstaw.org/m/2014/02/13/plasma-desktopcy3389.png
2014-02-13 17:46 <DocScrutinizer05> http://www.printcagraphic.dk/download/designparameters.pdf
2014-02-13 17:48 <DocScrutinizer05> http://wstaw.org/m/2014/02/13/plasma-desktopXr3389.png
2014-02-13 17:54 <DocScrutinizer05> http://www.p-m-services.co.uk/fr4_laminate.htm
2014-02-13 18:03 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: it's 35µm I have here
2014-02-13 18:03 <whitequark> at least the vendor claims it's 35
2014-02-13 18:03 <whitequark> "1 oz" translates to 35µm afaik
2014-02-13 18:07 <whitequark> yeah, it does
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2014-02-13 19:14 <roh> 35 is 'normal' for hobbyists stuff
2014-02-13 19:14 <roh> if you produce pcbs professional its much thinner and they make it thicker only after the first round of etching
2014-02-13 19:15 <roh> to reduce the amount of needed copper (expensive)
2014-02-13 19:15 * whitequark nods
2014-02-13 19:15 <roh> but afaik the processes needed arent feasible at home.. so.. we have simple 35µ from the start
2014-02-13 19:15 <whitequark> roh: I think they're pretty feasible, I've encountered that while researching whether I can set up electroplating
2014-02-13 19:16 <whitequark> it's just a CuSO₄ bath
2014-02-13 19:16 <whitequark> and a lot of current
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2014-02-13 19:41 <roh> i see... well.. send pix if you done it ;)
2014-02-13 19:41 <whitequark> electroplating holes or whole boards?
2014-02-13 19:42 <roh> both
2014-02-13 19:42 <whitequark> I've been thinking to cover everything except vias with resist and then electroplate only to holes
2014-02-13 19:42 <whitequark> simply because this way it's much quicker; I don't need to cover the entire board, just tiny vias
2014-02-13 19:42 <whitequark> sure
2014-02-13 19:42 <whitequark> I'll document it thoroughly, too
2014-02-13 19:43 <whitequark> what I really want is not a quick hack but a reproducible process, if only for sake of understanding how exactly to set up such a process
2014-02-13 19:55 <roh> yeah. also what to do with the waste
2014-02-13 19:55 <roh> thats what kept me off all this chemical stuff most the time. waste disposal is really tricky to do well
2014-02-13 19:57 <wpwrak> with HCl+H2O2 you produce nearly zero waste
2014-02-13 19:58 <wpwrak> and if you want to get rid of some, leave it outside so the water evaporates and you're left with solid residues
2014-02-13 19:59 <whitequark> roh: waste? which waste?
2014-02-13 20:00 <whitequark> CuSO4 bath doesn't have any. it deposits copper ions from electrodes to solution and then from solution to PCB
2014-02-13 20:00 <whitequark> the electrolyte can be used indefinitely
2014-02-13 20:00 <whitequark> other chemicals I use... NaOH, K2CO3 can be poured down the drain in any part of world
2014-02-13 20:01 <whitequark> pure (NH4)2S2O8 is benign (it'll immediately oxidize some organic and will turn into harmless ammonia and sulphate anions)
2014-02-13 20:02 <whitequark> used (NH4)2S2O8 with copper cations is worse, but honestly that miniscule amount of copper is not going to do anything, no matter how greenpeace wants you to think otherwise
2014-02-13 20:03 <whitequark> also consider that in Norilsk factories probably dump dozens of tons of copper a year
2014-02-13 20:03 <whitequark> *shrug*
2014-02-13 20:06 <whitequark> if I was really concerned about the whopping 20g or so of copper I'd need to dump when I use all of this solution, I'd add NaOH to it, after which insoluble Cu(OH)2 will precipitate
2014-02-13 20:07 <whitequark> that last thing can be thrown to landfill, it's not going to enter water stream.
2014-02-13 20:07 <whitequark> roh: I suspect your local bureaucracy would be tougher than actual safe waste disposal
2014-02-13 20:09 <roh> yep... well.. its rather a question of honor i guess ;)
2014-02-13 20:09 <roh> atleast in the amounts we use for hobby.
2014-02-13 20:09 <whitequark> sure. I think you've actually convinced me to dispose of it properly, considering I see how it is not hard at all
2014-02-13 20:09 <whitequark> just some highschool chemistry and you're done
2014-02-13 20:12 <whitequark> wpwrak: I've recalled another argument against HCl+H2O2
2014-02-13 20:12 <whitequark> it's a good way to get you some chlorine gas and that is going to corrode all iron tools you have around
2014-02-13 20:12 <whitequark> I've actually screwed up like that once and some of my tools are still rusty from that incident
2014-02-13 20:13 <whitequark> the thing is, you don't even need that much Cl2. tiny amounts still do have impressive effect on anything Fe or Cu or even plastics
2014-02-13 20:17 <wpwrak> yes, that's why i store it outside and open the bottle near the window. the etching doesn't produce much Cl gas.
2014-02-13 20:20 <whitequark> call me weird but I still prefer "no chlorine" over "a little chlorine"
2014-02-13 20:25 <whitequark> huh. I found a vendor who sells 12kg of H2O2 for $13
2014-02-13 20:25 <whitequark> and they apparently work with individuals
2014-02-13 20:30 <wpwrak> nice price. what concentration ? 0% ? :)
2014-02-13 20:31 <whitequark> 30-40% apparently
2014-02-13 20:31 <roh> no chlorine is nice. the broken tools really suck
2014-02-13 20:31 <roh> it even makes aluminium really ugly
2014-02-13 20:32 <whitequark> wpwrak: I've googled it and it seems to be a common price for H2O2 here
2014-02-13 20:32 <whitequark> another vendor sells 34kg drums for ~$30
2014-02-13 20:32 <whitequark> roh: it just ruins everything it touches :/
2014-02-13 20:33 <whitequark> huh. "Metallic Na 98%" $50/kg
2014-02-13 20:34 <whitequark> "H2O2 33%" $3/kg (retail price here)
2014-02-13 20:34 <whitequark> "Bromine" $20/l
2014-02-13 20:35 <whitequark> I really hope they do check whoever they sell this stuff to
2014-02-13 20:36 <wpwrak> 30-40% is good. don't forget to wear gloves also when opening/closing the bottle or next summer you'll have to work extra hard to develop a tan :)
2014-02-13 20:37 <whitequark> yeah I'm using gloves all the time. mainly to not leave fingerprints currently, as none of the stuff I use is corrosive
2014-02-13 20:37 <whitequark> "Nitric acid, concentrated" $3/kg
2014-02-13 20:38 <whitequark> "Aluminum, finely ground" $15/kg
2014-02-13 20:39 <whitequark> this is a real treasure of a vendor
2014-02-13 20:40 <whitequark> hydrazine!
2014-02-13 20:40 <whitequark> how is shipping that even legal
2014-02-13 20:40 <wpwrak> you should ask them if the have activated FOOF on tap ;-)
2014-02-13 20:42 <whitequark> they don't seem to stock nonexistent or absurd stuff. it just seems awkward in wake of recent regulations
2014-02-13 20:42 <lekernel> do they have dimethylmercury?
2014-02-13 20:42 <whitequark> no
2014-02-13 20:43 <lekernel> a few years ago there were plutonium listings on alibaba.com
2014-02-13 20:43 <lekernel> they seem to have disappeared
2014-02-13 20:43 <whitequark> yes, I'm talking about that kind of stuff.
2014-02-13 20:43 <whitequark> this shop doesn't have anything with mercury at all
2014-02-13 20:44 <whitequark> "Disprozium" $5300/kg
2014-02-13 20:45 <whitequark> "Europium(III) oxalate" $2400/kg. they seem to stock quite a bit of rare-earth stuff
2014-02-13 20:46 <whitequark> um, "Heavy fluid" $30/kg
2014-02-13 20:46 <whitequark> what?
2014-02-13 20:46 <whitequark> heavy fluid ?
2014-02-13 20:46 <wpwrak> try to order some of their nastier stuff. see if they let you. maybe they just forgot to update their shop. or require clients to show some credentials.
2014-02-13 20:47 <whitequark> wpwrak: nah don't want to. I'll probably get put (and rightfully so) onto some bozo list
2014-02-13 20:47 <wpwrak> (heavy fluid) they'll add more details once someone has ordered it and they autopsy results come out
2014-02-13 20:48 <wpwrak> well, then get something difficult but harmless. like a small quantity of HCl :)
2014-02-13 20:49 <whitequark> (heavy fluid) I missed the standard#; it's actually concentrated Ba(CdI)4 solution
2014-02-13 20:49 <whitequark> used for ore flotation or something
2014-02-13 20:50 <whitequark> the standard makes reference to similarly generic properties of fluid. for example, "Colority factor (max) -- 60"
2014-02-13 20:50 <whitequark> WTF is a "colority factor" and why does it not even have units
2014-02-13 20:51 <wpwrak> not everything has a unit ;-)
2014-02-13 20:52 <lekernel> whitequark, do you happen to know where to find cadmium-109?
2014-02-13 20:52 <whitequark> >HALF-LIFE: 464 days
2014-02-13 20:52 <whitequark> you must be an international terrorist or something
2014-02-13 20:52 <whitequark> try Libua
2014-02-13 20:52 <whitequark> *Libya
2014-02-13 20:54 <lekernel> no, I wonder if https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YHaWHwJHWo can be reproduced
2014-02-13 20:54 <whitequark> wpwrak: (colority factor) it is actually equal to %wt concentration of I2 in water which would have the same color
2014-02-13 20:55 <wpwrak> lekernel: moscow tap water ? ;-)
2014-02-13 20:56 <whitequark> lekernel: wow. fascinating.
2014-02-13 20:56 <whitequark> but I bet it's measurement error, somehow.
2014-02-13 20:57 <whitequark> lekernel: http://www.ritverc.com/products/detail.php?ID=1682 ?
2014-02-13 20:57 <lekernel> been looking at it for a while, also asked a couple professional physicists
2014-02-13 20:57 <wpwrak> breaking news: russian scientists reveal: "quantum theory is measurement error"
2014-02-13 20:57 <lekernel> no one could point out an obvious flaw
2014-02-13 20:58 <lekernel> also, it seems true that no one has experimented with gamma rays
2014-02-13 20:58 <lekernel> the shortest wavelength reported seems to be in the x-ray
2014-02-13 20:59 <wpwrak> whitequark: your next myth to debunk should then be dark matter. that would leave dark energy and maybe for dessert relativity. once you're done with that, newton can safely rise from his grave
2014-02-13 20:59 <lekernel> in http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10043-010-0042-3
2014-02-13 20:59 <whitequark> wpwrak: why me?
2014-02-13 20:59 <lekernel> wpwrak, quantum physics is often full of crap, no matter who does it
2014-02-13 21:00 <lekernel> respected professors or random guys
2014-02-13 21:00 <whitequark> I'm not saying QM is incorrect, especially since I understand exactly zilch in it
2014-02-13 21:01 <whitequark> and, you know, the whole "device I'm typing on has had QM applied in hundreds of places to great effect"
2014-02-13 21:02 <whitequark> one of funniest sights: people arguing GR/SR is incorrect, while using GPS
2014-02-13 21:02 <whitequark> wpwrak: ooo by the way
2014-02-13 21:03 <whitequark> they stock Y and Sr salts
2014-02-13 21:03 <whitequark> high-temperature superconductors!
2014-02-13 21:04 <whitequark> oh, YBaCu actually
2014-02-13 21:04 <whitequark> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yttrium_barium_copper_oxide
2014-02-13 21:04 <whitequark> I know a guy who claims to have successfully homebrewed one
2014-02-13 21:06 <whitequark> hehehe, "Silicium(II) oxide" $15/kg
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2014-02-13 21:33 <wpwrak> whitequark: bah, gps is basic geometry. euclid could have designed it.
2014-02-13 21:38 <whitequark> wpwrak: surely you know it has corrections for both SR and GR?
2014-02-13 21:54 <whitequark> btw. I ordered the chemicals required for activating the holes for electroplating
2014-02-13 21:54 <whitequark> let's see how it goes
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2014-02-13 22:26 <wpwrak> whitequark: (gps) i didn't say that his design would have worked ... at least not without adding a few layers of epicycles and such ;)
2014-02-13 22:31 <whitequark> hehehe
2014-02-13 22:31 <whitequark> I wonder if you can model Lorentz contraction with epicycles or somesuch
2014-02-13 22:31 <whitequark> probably not
2014-02-13 22:32 <wpwrak> oh, i'm sure you ca
2014-02-13 22:32 <wpwrak> n. at least to any precision you want ... :)
2014-02-13 23:12 <wpwrak> ("sure") not in the "i've proven it or saw someone prove it" kind of sense but more in the "if someone descends to that level of madness, it's inconceivable that they won't find a way that makes sense at least in their head"
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