2014-02-09 00:01 <whitequark> okay I noticed I forgot to drill it
2014-02-09 00:04 lekernel_ has quit [Quit: Leaving]
2014-02-09 00:12 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
2014-02-09 00:15 <wpwrak> or just move to japan and let the earthquakes do the stirring ;)
2014-02-09 00:26 wej has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 00:26 <whitequark> damn! no free lunch for me
2014-02-09 00:26 <whitequark> the laser printer has a systematic error
2014-02-09 00:27 <whitequark> actually, hm, no, I don't think it's printer, I've explicitly verified that printer has less than .05mm deviation on 10cm square
2014-02-09 00:27 <whitequark> inkscape? I bet it's inkscape.
2014-02-09 00:56 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
2014-02-09 01:17 unclouded has quit [Quit: Leaving]
2014-02-09 01:17 unclouded has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 01:20 <whitequark> hah, an interesting physical effect: etchant is so concentrated that if I leave a drop of water, it doesn't dry to leave some white markings
2014-02-09 01:20 <whitequark> rather it dries to become a sphere with a hard crystallized shell and soft "sludge" inside
2014-02-09 01:25 kanzure_ has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 01:26 Markvill_ has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 01:29 Markvilla has quit [*.net *.split]
2014-02-09 01:29 kanzure has quit [*.net *.split]
2014-02-09 01:45 wej has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
2014-02-09 01:48 wej has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 01:54 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 02:07 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
2014-02-09 03:00 <whitequark> ooo you'll like this
2014-02-09 03:00 <whitequark> wpwrak: DocScrutinizer05: hole electroplating http://www.instructables.com/id/Inexpensive-method-of-industrial-level-quality-PCB/
2014-02-09 03:00 <whitequark> however it is not your typical ink-based process
2014-02-09 03:00 <whitequark> rather you dunk the board in an activation solution and then heat it depositing an initial layer of copper crystals
2014-02-09 03:01 <whitequark> I'm actually rather inclined to try this
2014-02-09 03:01 <whitequark> probably more out of curiosity rather than practicality, but who knows
2014-02-09 03:20 <whitequark> the required calcium hypophosphite is actually easy to obtain here, $7/kg and no restrictions
2014-02-09 03:20 <whitequark> there are companies which readily ship such stuff to individuals
2014-02-09 03:23 rz2k has quit []
2014-02-09 03:49 Guest5506 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
2014-02-09 03:50 <wpwrak> ... for they know it'll kill them before they can do anything seriously dangerous with it ;-)
2014-02-09 04:58 <DocScrutinizer05> whitequark: (thru hole .ru patent) nice, but what I'm missing are details regarding electroplating
2014-02-09 06:50 Markvill_ has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.]
2014-02-09 06:52 Coyo has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 06:52 Coyo is now known as Guest47928
2014-02-09 06:57 Guest47928 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
2014-02-09 07:08 freespace has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
2014-02-09 07:10 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 07:11 <DocScrutinizer05> http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1411750#post1411750
2014-02-09 07:17 freespace has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 07:46 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
2014-02-09 08:14 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
2014-02-09 08:27 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
2014-02-09 08:28 Coyo has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 08:28 Coyo is now known as Guest97992
2014-02-09 08:36 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 08:37 <wpwrak> victory at last ;-)
2014-02-09 08:38 <wpwrak> "Quantity 1000" ;-)
2014-02-09 09:01 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 09:12 <DocScrutinizer05> yoh, sufficient since we probably can get more when we really would need to
2014-02-09 09:13 <wpwrak> yeah. and your first batch is safe now.
2014-02-09 09:13 <DocScrutinizer05> let's hope it's not ;-P
2014-02-09 09:13 <DocScrutinizer05> I still hope for a first batch of 1500 ;-)
2014-02-09 09:14 <DocScrutinizer05> since most likely there never will be a second batch
2014-02-09 09:14 <wpwrak> well, depends on how good your PR will be :)
2014-02-09 09:14 <wpwrak> why ? if you manage the first, another run will be considerably easier
2014-02-09 09:15 <DocScrutinizer05> not from the orders perspective
2014-02-09 09:16 <DocScrutinizer05> everybody interested will order for first batch. I don't see a massive run starting after first batch got built
2014-02-09 09:16 <DocScrutinizer05> press coverage will happen on prototypes
2014-02-09 09:16 <DocScrutinizer05> or PV the latest
2014-02-09 09:19 <DocScrutinizer05> maybe the later announcement of "Neo900 privacy care package" might start a 2nd run
2014-02-09 09:19 <DocScrutinizer05> VPN and VoIP
2014-02-09 09:20 <DocScrutinizer05> "1666 'free' voice minutes with a 100MB/month dataplan"
2014-02-09 09:21 <DocScrutinizer05> "100% encrypted phonecalls between Neo900 and to all SIP phones supporting ZRTP"
2014-02-09 09:22 <DocScrutinizer05> "Neo900 group recommends twinklephone for KDE"
2014-02-09 09:22 Luke-Jr has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
2014-02-09 09:23 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 09:31 panda|x201 has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 10:12 pcercueiS2 has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 10:20 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 10:25 <nicksydney_> anyone has tried to buy any IC from this website http://www.semiconductorstore.com/ ? seems like their price is very reasonable
2014-02-09 10:37 <nicksydney_> wow! another open source hardware store site http://www.inmojo.com/
2014-02-09 10:41 <DocScrutinizer05> http://www.semiconductorstore.com/ seems down for me
2014-02-09 10:41 <DocScrutinizer05> 500 - Internal server error.
2014-02-09 10:41 <DocScrutinizer05> There is a problem with the resource you are looking for, and it cannot be displayed.
2014-02-09 10:42 nicksydney_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
2014-02-09 10:42 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 10:43 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 10:44 <nicksydney> DocScrutinizer05: weird...just tried 10mins ago
2014-02-09 10:44 <nicksydney> seems like not credible looking at the current site now :)
2014-02-09 10:47 pcercueiS2 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
2014-02-09 11:38 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
2014-02-09 11:44 wej has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 11:59 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 12:30 <whitequark> oooo I really like this resist
2014-02-09 12:31 <whitequark> I printed out a calibration pattern, it's quite clear even at 30s@3W exposure
2014-02-09 12:31 paul_boddie has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 12:31 <whitequark> and optimal time seems to be 120s
2014-02-09 12:31 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 12:31 * paul_boddie was just reading the Neo900 shipping to Russia arguments
2014-02-09 12:32 <paul_boddie> Sheesh! Is it "hearsay" when stuff like that is actually reported on the BBC?
2014-02-09 12:32 <paul_boddie> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25878869
2014-02-09 12:32 <nicksydney> DocScrutinizer05: the website http://www.semiconductorstore.com/  is up :)
2014-02-09 12:32 <whitequark> paul_boddie: yes it is a huge problem here
2014-02-09 12:33 <whitequark> taxless customs limit was initially planned to be lowered to $150 per *month*
2014-02-09 12:33 <whitequark> though it seems to have been changed to $150/package like in .de
2014-02-09 12:33 <whitequark> that being said, dhl and fedex didn't really like to work with private individuals before that
2014-02-09 12:34 <paul_boddie> They started arguing a bit about tax-free limits here in Norway again.
2014-02-09 12:34 <paul_boddie> The right-of-centre parties want the limit to go up from 200 NOK to 400 or even 1000 (per shipment).
2014-02-09 12:35 <paul_boddie> But some business organisation wants it to go down to 0.
2014-02-09 12:35 <whitequark> eh?!
2014-02-09 12:35 <whitequark> what is the point
2014-02-09 12:36 <paul_boddie> The point of the limit? It's the threshold above which you pay tax on the value of the goods.
2014-02-09 12:37 <paul_boddie> Moving it up or down either "punishes" or "rewards" local business, supposedly.
2014-02-09 12:37 <paul_boddie> I wouldn't have a problem paying VAT on everything shipped from abroad provided that...
2014-02-09 12:38 <whitequark> I see
2014-02-09 12:38 <paul_boddie> (1) I could deduct foreign VAT, and (2) the postal service didn't rip everyone off with their "service" of importing the goods.
2014-02-09 12:38 <whitequark> I wouldn't really mind paying VAT too, even with its ridiculous 30% rate, I can afford it
2014-02-09 12:39 <whitequark> but the problem is that interaction with customs is absurdly painful
2014-02-09 12:39 <paul_boddie> I just don't want to pay double VAT. Oh, and VAT on the post office's "service" charge.
2014-02-09 12:43 <wpwrak> (russian restrictions) if the article is as accurate as the one about argentina then i would take it with a few grains of salt ;) http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-25836208
2014-02-09 12:43 <wpwrak> (the title is correct, but what follows is half-truths at best)
2014-02-09 12:44 <whitequark> wpwrak: I'll be able to speak about it concretely after I ship the next parcel in a few days..
2014-02-09 12:45 <wpwrak> you must have made their major importers watchlist by now ;-)
2014-02-09 12:45 <paul_boddie> wpwrak: Well, who is truly able to keep on top of what the Argentine government is doing?
2014-02-09 12:45 <paul_boddie> It's Whitequark Industries now!
2014-02-09 12:45 <wpwrak> paul_boddie: not even themselves ;-)
2014-02-09 12:45 <whitequark> wpwrak: that is quite likely actually
2014-02-09 12:46 <whitequark> since I truthfully declared what is classified as "industrial equipment"
2014-02-09 12:47 <whitequark> it is both flattering and inconvenient at the same time :p
2014-02-09 12:48 <paul_boddie> wpwrak: I think people just started to give up trying to follow them. The Economist refused to print their statistics and more or less called them liars.
2014-02-09 12:48 <wpwrak> hah. what would Marx say about that ? industrial equipment in private hands ? never ! comrade whitequark, you have been a very bad boy. we'll have to confiscate all your toys.
2014-02-09 12:49 <paul_boddie> No, he's surely seizing the means of production from the borgeois ruling classes.
2014-02-09 12:49 <wpwrak> paul_boddie: well, that is certainly true. the official inflation figures are in the 10% p.a. range. more credible sources have 25-30%
2014-02-09 12:50 <wpwrak> paul_boddie: ah, the new strategy - just buy up all the means of production from the capitalist class enemy, so they'll starve. clever.
2014-02-09 13:01 <paul_boddie> Well, if the capitalists are Anglo-Saxon, they'll probably sell you the means of production and rent it back just to get some quick cash.
2014-02-09 13:03 * whitequark doesn't get it
2014-02-09 13:06 <paul_boddie> I think it was another wpwrak joke about life in the former USSR.
2014-02-09 13:06 <whitequark> no, the anglo-saxon one
2014-02-09 13:07 <paul_boddie> But the selling off and renting back thing is classic modern capitalism.
2014-02-09 13:08 <paul_boddie> Business owners thinking that they have too much money "tied up" in assets and want some more to spend, so they sell the assets off but still need them to actually make money.
2014-02-09 13:09 <wpwrak> yeah, lots of fun stuff there. also in the form of cross-border leasing. usually pretty ruinous.
2014-02-09 13:10 <paul_boddie> You get this in "economically liberal" countries where they privatise essential services or industries: there's a "lottery winner" moment of being given lots of cash, but then you have to pay for everything.
2014-02-09 13:11 <paul_boddie> Where "you" is the state and, of course, the individual (via taxes or fees for things that used to be included in taxes).
2014-02-09 13:11 <whitequark> ah
2014-02-09 13:13 pcercueiS2 has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 13:14 <paul_boddie> Just be sure not to fall into this trap: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcC_iEHiFZs
2014-02-09 13:15 <wpwrak> well, the taxpayer pays either way. but usually prices go up, service quality goes down, and maintenance gets neglected when you take that route. there are countless examples for this.
2014-02-09 13:16 Markvilla has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 13:26 paul_boddie has quit []
2014-02-09 13:38 * whitequark . o O ( what if I add H2O2 to (NH4)2S2O8? )
2014-02-09 13:44 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
2014-02-09 13:46 <wpwrak> "what if we dropped it from higher up ?" http://what-if.xkcd.com/57/
2014-02-09 13:48 <whitequark> exactly
2014-02-09 13:49 <apelete> larsc: documentation done: http://apelete.seketeli.net/writing-an-musb-glue-layer.html
2014-02-09 13:49 <apelete> comments welcome :)
2014-02-09 13:50 <larsc> You are the musb expert, not me ;)
2014-02-09 13:54 <apelete> you're kidding me :)
2014-02-09 13:56 <larsc> looks good, very nicely done
2014-02-09 13:58 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: ooo you've been right all along and I was wrong
2014-02-09 13:58 pcercueiS2 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
2014-02-09 13:59 <whitequark> etching doesn't noticeably cool the solution and it was just cold from before
2014-02-09 13:59 pcercueiS2 has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 13:59 <whitequark> I'm now etching at 30° and it's almost done in 20 minutes
2014-02-09 14:00 <apelete> larsc: looking at how to convert this in dockbook format to submit it to upstream kernel documentation
2014-02-09 14:00 <apelete> (actually written in rst format: http://git.seketeli.net/cgit/~apelete/about-me-hacking-and-tao.git/tree/content/writing_musb_glue_layer.rst)
2014-02-09 14:00 <apelete> larsc: looks good enough to you ?
2014-02-09 14:02 <larsc> yes
2014-02-09 14:04 <apelete> okay thanks, will fix a few things (forgot to add acknowledgements chapter to the table of contents) and convert it
2014-02-09 14:08 <pcercueiS2> is it safe to lock a spinlock in the interrupt handler?
2014-02-09 14:08 <whitequark> I don't think so
2014-02-09 14:09 <larsc> yes
2014-02-09 14:10 <larsc> but you need to make sure to use spinlock_irqsave when you lock the same spinlock outside a irq handler
2014-02-09 14:12 <larsc> or spinlock_irq
2014-02-09 14:12 <larsc> if you know that the spinlock will always be called with interrupts enabled you can use spinlock_irq
2014-02-09 14:12 <larsc> if you don't know use spinlock_irqsave
2014-02-09 14:16 pcercueiS2 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
2014-02-09 14:17 pcercueiS2 has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 14:20 <larsc> pcercueiS2: https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/spinlocks.txt
2014-02-09 14:21 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
2014-02-09 14:23 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 14:27 <CYB3R> pcercueiS2: hi! could you please share your jz-boot configuration?
2014-02-09 14:27 <pcercueiS2> ehrm
2014-02-09 14:28 <pcercueiS2> I don't have any specific configuration
2014-02-09 14:29 <CYB3R> I mean that config files
2014-02-09 14:30 <pcercueiS2> I don't use anything else than the default config
2014-02-09 14:31 <CYB3R> so you just 'nprogram' your image to nand?
2014-02-09 14:34 <pcercueiS2> yes
2014-02-09 14:34 <pcercueiS2> nerase one block first
2014-02-09 14:34 <pcercueiS2> then nprogram
2014-02-09 14:36 <CYB3R> Do you have only 2 binary images? Bootloader and ubifs?
2014-02-09 14:38 <pcercueiS2> well I never flashed an UBI image using jz-boot, when I did it it was through a running system
2014-02-09 14:39 <pcercueiS2> but I believe you can do that, yes
2014-02-09 14:40 <pcercueiS2> beware, ubiboot will run a kernel stored on a UBI volume, but it does not understand ubifs
2014-02-09 14:41 <CYB3R> pcercueiS2: I can't understand it. How could it load a kernel from ubi volume without ubifs?
2014-02-09 14:42 <pcercueiS2> well, UBI is not a filesystem, it's a FTL
2014-02-09 14:42 <pcercueiS2> ubifs is a filesystem designed to run on top of UBI
2014-02-09 14:43 <CYB3R> What does FTL stands for?
2014-02-09 14:43 <pcercueiS2> basically, UBI provides you with volumes (sub-partitions, sort of)
2014-02-09 14:44 <pcercueiS2> where you can store raw data, or ordered data with a filesystem
2014-02-09 14:44 <pcercueiS2> flash translation layer
2014-02-09 14:45 <pcercueiS2> it's mostly a software layer that provide wear levelling and handling of bad blocks
2014-02-09 14:48 <CYB3R> Is it kind of abstraction on NAND flash?
2014-02-09 14:49 <pcercueiS2> yes
2014-02-09 14:49 <pcercueiS2> without it, it would die in no time
2014-02-09 14:50 <pcercueiS2> SD cards have such a layer too, but it's internal to the card and not exposed to the SD card reader
2014-02-09 14:50 <CYB3R> Do UBI and MTD have similar functions?
2014-02-09 14:51 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 14:53 <pcercueiS2> MTD gives you low-level access to the physical blocks of the NAND
2014-02-09 14:54 <pcercueiS2> UBI spreads its logical blocks on the NAND device; two consecutive logical blocks in UBI may not be physically consecutive
2014-02-09 14:56 <pcercueiS2> you could store data directly on the NAND via the MTD nodes, but you'd trash your NAND in no time
2014-02-09 14:56 <pcercueiS2> that's why UBI exists
2014-02-09 14:57 <CYB3R> Okay, it's some memory controller logic to manage bad blocks and all this things. This is a good thing. How do I start using UBI?
2014-02-09 14:59 <pcercueiS2> I think ubiboot expects the UBI to exist at a specific address and size on the NAND
2014-02-09 15:00 <pcercueiS2> basically create a file of the correct size, create an UBI layer on it, create a volume named "kernel", then write there your vmlinuz.bin file
2014-02-09 15:01 <pcercueiS2> and then flash the image at the correct address using jz-boot
2014-02-09 15:01 <CYB3R> Can I write a file to volume with no filesystem?
2014-02-09 15:02 <pcercueiS2> yes, and that's what ubiboot expects
2014-02-09 15:02 <pcercueiS2> for detailed steps you'll have to search the web, I don't remember the commands
2014-02-09 15:02 <CYB3R> I don't understand this part about writing file to volume with no filesystem
2014-02-09 15:03 <pcercueiS2> ...
2014-02-09 15:03 <CYB3R> Do you use dd with an offset for this?
2014-02-09 15:03 <CYB3R> I'll try searching tools for ubi
2014-02-09 15:07 pcercueiS2 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
2014-02-09 15:08 <CYB3R> Btw, is SDRAM initialisation code in UBIBoot taken from ingenic's nand-boot?
2014-02-09 15:10 pcercueiS2 has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 15:16 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
2014-02-09 15:55 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
2014-02-09 15:56 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 15:56 pcercueiS2 has quit [Quit: Yaaic - Yet another Android IRC client - http://www.yaaic.org]
2014-02-09 16:09 CYB3R has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
2014-02-09 16:13 pcercuei has quit [Quit: bbl]
2014-02-09 17:04 porchao has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
2014-02-09 17:05 lekernel has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
2014-02-09 17:07 CYB3R has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 17:20 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 17:51 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 18:07 Markvill_ has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 18:08 Markvilla has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
2014-02-09 18:22 viric has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
2014-02-09 18:41 viric has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 18:48 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 19:15 <DocScrutinizer05> whitequark: 30min sounds exactly OK
2014-02-09 19:40 <DocScrutinizer05> ((<CYB3R> Can I write a file to volume with no filesystem?)) hardly since then you got no bad block management at all
2014-02-09 19:42 <DocScrutinizer05> since there's no bad block handling on hw level and in mtd drivers, you need something in your "filesystem" drivers to do that. dd and similar tools don't have any idea about bad blocks
2014-02-09 19:43 <DocScrutinizer05> ubifs does
2014-02-09 19:45 <DocScrutinizer05> usually the bootloader checks first 4 blocks to find a vmlinuz image header. vmlinuz afaik is a "self extracting archive" and should manage (and skip) bad blocks while decompressing. During flashing the tool that is flashing your kernel will need a method to handle and "skip" bad blocks
2014-02-09 19:45 <DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak probably knows much better than I do
2014-02-09 19:56 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 19:57 <pcercuei> hey larsc
2014-02-09 19:57 <pcercuei> at which hour should I show up tomorrow?
2014-02-09 20:09 <DocScrutinizer05> ooh, sorry for the nonsense about vmlinuz, when you use UBIboot it is obviously the UBI FTL that handles the bad blocks, and thus you need a UBI aware tool to flash vmlinuz to NAND
2014-02-09 20:10 <DocScrutinizer05> I don't know what exactly uBoot is using for FTL, and I never looked into UBIboot before
2014-02-09 20:38 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
2014-02-09 21:17 pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo]
2014-02-09 21:55 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware
2014-02-09 22:45 nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
2014-02-09 23:20 lekernel has quit [Quit: Leaving]
2014-02-09 23:40 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware