2014-02-08 00:12 whitequark: ideally traces have strictly vertical edges, that's why orthodox tooling uses endmill. In RL though, no trace ever has a vertical edge, particularly not when etching. So if your Z axis is precise enough to ensure gap width, I don't see a problem with using engraving bits 2014-02-08 00:14 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-08 00:18 i'd use an endmill to cut pcbs, though 2014-02-08 00:24 * DocScrutinizer05 prolly too, since controlling Z-axis is not exactly simple 2014-02-08 00:24 THIS would be something where you *need* feedback 2014-02-08 00:26 when you for example use ds-sticky to fix your PCB, and you pressed it a 0.1mm tighter at one end of PCB than on the other, then your traces' gaps also are off at least 0.1mm 2014-02-08 00:31 that's indeed the sort of fun i had when trying to mill traces. for cutting the pcb, i simply add a bit of overshoot. but with traces, you can only go so far ... 2014-02-08 00:35 with endmill you should keep in mind that they are tiny and you can only go really slow through material to grind with them. Professional CNC mills use up to iirc 100k RPM 2014-02-08 00:37 I mean the cutting speed is RPM * 2r * Pi. r(adius) of your endmill is what? 0.1mm? 2014-02-08 00:37 arielenter has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-02-08 00:37 arielenter1 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-08 00:38 sounds like a cutting speed like 0.1m/s 2014-02-08 00:39 for a 10,000 RPM mill. Not really much 2014-02-08 00:40 when you use a really good cut/travel ratio of 1/10 then you can't move 0.2mm endmill faster than 1cm/s, on a 10000RPM mill 2014-02-08 00:41 I don't think you can achieve 1/10, I pulled that outa my a.... 2014-02-08 00:41 so more likely you're down to sth like 1mm/s 2014-02-08 00:42 arielenter1 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 2014-02-08 00:42 will still work, but milling your PCB might take a while ;-) 2014-02-08 00:44 * DocScrutinizer05 needs to look up the correct english terms for surface speed of a grinding tool like a saw blade or a endmill, and for the amount the cut advances 2014-02-08 00:44 heck, I prolly don't even know the german terms for that 2014-02-08 00:46 wolfspra1l has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-08 00:47 just in case I been too fuzzy: when you cut a steel rod with a saw blade, then the saw blade operates at a certain speed in m/s against the rod. And - given a certain pressure you press the blade against the rod and a certain efficiency aka sharpness of the blade - the cut will go deeper in a certain clearly defined ratio for every meter the blade moves across the rod 2014-02-08 00:49 the ratio is the 1/10 I used in above guesstimate. The pressure is what makes your endmill break since it builds up when you move the endmill through the object to cut 2014-02-08 00:50 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2014-02-08 00:50 the sharpness aka efficiency is probably getting too low for the fab, so they decided to sell off those used bits 2014-02-08 00:53 now in industry time is money and they want fast operation of their machines, thus they use 100,000 RPM CNC and pretty sharp mill bits. For you, using the worn bits, it's "no money but lots of time", so you need to adjust your X/Y speed of your CNC down to really slow. The slower the smaller the tool diameter since that directly reduces grinding speed the tool goes ofer the surface to grind 2014-02-08 00:53 over* 2014-02-08 00:54 or across* ? 2014-02-08 00:54 wpwrak: makes sense? 2014-02-08 00:58 yeah, the duller your cutting edges, the slower you have to go 2014-02-08 00:59 btw pressure is in force/area where area is the width of your tool * depth you cut into the PCB, so 0.2mm (dia of endmill) * maybe 0.15mm (depth of trench in PCB to cut) 2014-02-08 01:00 with a factory-new 12 mil (0.3 mm) at 6000 rpm, i didn't dare to go faster than 0.5 mm/s. you can probably go faster but each wrong guess costs some USD 15 ... 2014-02-08 01:00 :nod: 2014-02-08 01:01 that's why I thought a real feedback of force on tool bit would be really useful 2014-02-08 01:02 you intentionally break one bit to caibrate the sensor, and that's the last bit you ever broken on that CNC machine 2014-02-08 01:03 well, at least for that particular type of bit 2014-02-08 01:03 famous last words ;-) 2014-02-08 01:04 no matter what you cut and how deep you cut and how sharp the bit and how fast the spindle, you always can limit the XY-advance to a safe amount 2014-02-08 01:05 just your "break distance" of your CNC has to be shorter than the elastic deformation the bit allows 2014-02-08 01:05 hmm, actually you can't because there are other types of mishaps that can break your mill. but yes, keeping the speed reasonably low prevents having to replace mills all too often 2014-02-08 01:06 to me it feels more like "insanely unbearably low", but yes ;-) 2014-02-08 01:07 excessive speed can also cause vibrations that make the cut uneven 2014-02-08 01:07 well, after a week even moderately complex PCB should be finalized 2014-02-08 01:07 ;-D 2014-02-08 01:08 oh, one common mistake is to get Z wrong. or to forget about some obstacle, clamp or such. then the mill rushes into whatever at full speed because it things it has no contact with the workpiece. 2014-02-08 01:08 probably a very good tactics is to use a 1mm or even 3mm endmill for everything that doesn't need to get any finer than that 2014-02-08 01:09 sure, that's human error 2014-02-08 01:09 and then sometimes parts of a piece come off and strike the mill. or, worse, stay attached to it. 2014-02-08 01:09 that's bad 2014-02-08 01:09 yes, always pick the largest mill that can do the job :) 2014-02-08 01:10 and you should try to find tool path that avoids creating such loose blobs 2014-02-08 01:10 sometimes the toolpath is fine but the adhesive is too weak 2014-02-08 01:10 I guess advance speed goes up diameter^4 or sth like that 2014-02-08 01:11 higher circumference speed, higher force allowable 2014-02-08 01:11 luckily, my mill detects such things fairly quickly. so it must have some sort of sensor. 2014-02-08 01:12 one limiting factor is the mill's torque and the amount of vibration the talk can tolerate 2014-02-08 01:13 200W should create enough torque 2014-02-08 01:13 e.g., i wouldn't try my 1/8 in (3.2 mm) mill on a PCB 2014-02-08 01:13 yeah, whitequark's machine is pretty powerful 2014-02-08 01:14 mine has only 10 W (in the spindle motor) 2014-02-08 01:15 that's a bit low 2014-02-08 01:15 * DocScrutinizer05 wonders how much has his Proxxon "dremel" 2014-02-08 01:16 40W 2014-02-08 01:16 well, it's intended for light work. also, a weak spindle motor means a lower chance for self-disassembly ;-) 2014-02-08 01:16 self-WUT? 2014-02-08 01:17 i.e., the sooner or the later we'll hear whitequark curse about the mill cutting into the table ;-) 2014-02-08 01:17 "look, I can shoot away the floor as well!" ? 2014-02-08 01:18 that's why you *always* use a 10mm decent victim material 2014-02-08 01:19 what we need is an industrial robot (the kind that has an arm with many degrees of freedom) with a high-powered laser cutter ;-) 2014-02-08 01:19 yes!!! 2014-02-08 01:20 since ~2years I'm googling for really powerful cutter lasers every now and then 2014-02-08 01:21 haven't found anything better than "cuts plastic sticky foil" so far 2014-02-08 01:22 really good IR laser (LED) >100W is hard to find, even new from manuf 2014-02-08 01:24 at some shipyards the not only cut 50mm steel sheets by laser, they even weld whole ships by laser robots 2014-02-08 01:24 they* 2014-02-08 01:24 those are awesome tools, really :-) 2014-02-08 01:25 a few 100kW 2014-02-08 01:26 nicksydney_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-08 01:26 nicksydney has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-02-08 01:30 basically those shipyards became giant makerbots during the last few decades 2014-02-08 01:31 I guess they wouldn't find the right focus and PWM adjustment to make a PCB though ;-) 2014-02-08 01:32 maybe you should make friends there. i'm sure they discard old equipment every once in a while ... 2014-02-08 01:32 the precision is probably in the mm range at best 2014-02-08 01:32 hardly ever they discard those lasers 2014-02-08 01:33 just like Queen Mary doesn't discard the engine 2014-02-08 01:34 I guess the laser weighs dozens of tons 2014-02-08 01:34 if they upgrade to a new generation of machines, why would they keep the old ones around forever ? 2014-02-08 01:34 ah, that kind :) 2014-02-08 01:34 meanwhile, you may like this: http://www.laser-gadgets.com/pulse_laser_gun.php 2014-02-08 01:35 not what you crave but at least can do some depth 2014-02-08 01:35 (melts tungsten!) W*T*F?! 2014-02-08 01:38 WOOOOOW 2014-02-08 01:47 incredibly nice, I planned to build exactly that for years 2014-02-08 01:47 I wonder what he's using. CO2 gas tube? 2014-02-08 01:48 can't think of anything else 2014-02-08 01:49 I really wonder about beam divergence 2014-02-08 01:52 and I really wonder how he creates that allegedly 1MW 2014-02-08 01:53 80-100 Joules @ 350-400 Volt --- ???? how??? 2014-02-08 01:54 1J = 1VAs 2014-02-08 01:54 iirc 2014-02-08 01:55 make is 1 us, so you only need 1 W continuous per MW pulsed ;-) 2014-02-08 01:55 -> 0.25As 2014-02-08 01:55 I don't see the slomo showing a 1uS pulse though 2014-02-08 01:56 maybe 1ms 2014-02-08 01:57 0.25As/400V = ok, 625uF 2014-02-08 01:58 assuming he thinks the flash could burn down to 0V in buffer capacitors 2014-02-08 01:58 i think the critters work at some kV 2014-02-08 01:58 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-08 01:59 100Ws / 0.0001s = 1MW 2014-02-08 01:59 aye 2014-02-08 02:00 so, ignoring all the false assumptions and all the ignored efficiency loss, he actually might create a bruto 1MW pulse laser 2014-02-08 02:00 netto maybe 100W 2014-02-08 02:01 ,aybe even 1kW 2014-02-08 02:03 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-02-08 02:03 co2 doesnt melt metal 2014-02-08 02:03 he's stating >>Caution: HIGH VOLTAGE ! Energy storage stores 80-100 Joules @ 350-400 Volt !<< 2014-02-08 02:04 which is in line with usual electron flash 2014-02-08 02:04 one usually uses not 10.6µm (co2) but 1µm (1064nm) 2014-02-08 02:04 Nd:YAG is what one wants for metal 2014-02-08 02:05 sure 2014-02-08 02:05 that starwars phaser laser pulse gun doesn't claim it's particularly suited for melting metal 2014-02-08 02:06 and I really have severe doubts about his claim >>(melts tungsten!)<< 2014-02-08 02:08 I dunno what's used in shipyards to cut those 50 or 100mm steel sheets like cake 2014-02-08 02:10 http://www.industrial-lasers.com/articles/2002/04/lasers-in-us-shipbuilding.html talks about CO2 lasers nevertheless 2014-02-08 02:13 DocScrutinizer05: plasmacutters 2014-02-08 02:13 hmm? 2014-02-08 02:13 'sauerstofflanze' 2014-02-08 02:13 I know plasmacutters exist 2014-02-08 02:13 I even used them, fun stuff 2014-02-08 02:14 fixed them 2014-02-08 02:14 (rectifier broken) 2014-02-08 02:14 jup. either that or use a waterjet 2014-02-08 02:14 I don't. shipyards use laser cutting nowadays 2014-02-08 02:14 anything else for cutting metall is usually for thin sheets (less than 5-3cm) 2014-02-08 02:15 and they do for cutting really think steel sheets, and also for welding 2014-02-08 02:15 the article above talks about welding mostly 2014-02-08 02:15 http://www.industrial-lasers.com/articles/2009/07/laser-bevel-cutting-in-japanrsquos-shipyards.html 2014-02-08 02:15 lasers have some disadvantages at price end. 2014-02-08 02:16 and one doesn usually need the precision 2014-02-08 02:16 seems increased precision is outweighing that 2014-02-08 02:17 aiui nowadays 100m+ ocean liners are completely built on CNC laser cutting and welding 2014-02-08 02:18 portal XYZ actuators that move a bot arm with some more degrees of freedom to anywhere of the cross secion of that ocean liner 2014-02-08 02:19 and for sure laser cutting of steel sheets of several meters length and height, and up to 100mm thickness 2014-02-08 02:20 to cut out appertures for doors and windows, and so on 2014-02-08 02:20 then weld the cut sheets into place, also with laser 2014-02-08 02:21 I have no detailled info, just a TV report about contemprary laser usage 2014-02-08 04:44 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-08 05:11 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2014-02-08 06:30 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2014-02-08 06:37 DocScrutinizer05: (unbearably slow) yes, this is exactly my concern, safe surface speed for this 0.2mm endmill means a very trivial pcb routes for like 1.2 hours 2014-02-08 06:37 which is absurd 2014-02-08 06:38 well, go for 100,000 RPM then ;-) 2014-02-08 06:39 or don't cut trenches with 0.2mm when you could cut them 1mm wide as well 2014-02-08 06:39 well... a spindle for 60000 rpm would set me back about $700 2014-02-08 06:39 water cooled one even 2014-02-08 06:40 http://et-rus.ru/?mode=product&product_id=1177737 2014-02-08 06:40 however it is also frequency controlled and as such needs some weird kind of inverter or something, I dunno 2014-02-08 06:41 I think it's a common best design practice to not use 0.2mm clearance between traces except where absolutely needed 2014-02-08 06:41 DocScrutinizer05: tqfp pads 2014-02-08 06:41 hlw long are the cuts you need for those? 2014-02-08 06:41 how* 2014-02-08 06:42 one pad is about... 4mm long cut? multiply by 32 or 64 or w/e 2014-02-08 06:42 I can't see a CNC mill take 1.2h for a TQFP footprint 2014-02-08 06:43 it's a whole board 2014-02-08 06:43 hm? 2014-02-08 06:43 the CAM I'm currently using is unable to mill the board with several different tools 2014-02-08 06:43 that's the problem then 2014-02-08 06:43 sure 2014-02-08 06:44 btw for the 0805 resistors the gap is .3mm 2014-02-08 06:44 err 2014-02-08 06:44 basically I think you need "roughing" step and "finishing" step like you would for any other cnc workpiece 2014-02-08 06:44 for pcbs 2014-02-08 06:44 but I know of no CAM that does that... 2014-02-08 06:44 sure 2014-02-08 06:48 * DocScrutinizer05 wonders if you actually could *print* PCBs 2014-02-08 06:48 like - use silver varnish, then burn in at 350°C 2014-02-08 06:50 it seems some CIR remote PCBs already get built that way - at least partially 2014-02-08 06:51 they however use carbon varnish it seems 2014-02-08 06:51 also print their resistors 2014-02-08 06:51 and even jumpers across traces 2014-02-08 06:52 maybe those jumpers are just low-R resistors 2014-02-08 06:54 http://www.shipcircuits.com/embedded-resistors/ 2014-02-08 06:56 http://www.piher-nacesa.com/pdf/05-PCRv03.pdf 2014-02-08 06:56 wolfspra1l has quit [Quit: leaving] 2014-02-08 07:08 * whitequark did a fun check for the accuracy of his cnc machine 2014-02-08 07:08 I took a chunk of PCB and milled the laminate away, leaving just the bare copper 2014-02-08 07:09 seems to have worked out very well 2014-02-08 07:19 ... grh, wpwrak can rejoice: I've just milled into my table a little bit :/ 2014-02-08 07:21 DocScrutinizer05: wpwrak: is it important to use deionized water for etching/developing solution, or is regular boiled water OK? 2014-02-08 07:22 I'd think reasonably clean tap water is ok 2014-02-08 07:22 except... 2014-02-08 07:22 for H2O2 you don't want to add impurities of any kind usually 2014-02-08 07:22 nay, H2O2 isn't my cup of tea 2014-02-08 07:22 but then, who would mix H2O2 with H2O? 2014-02-08 07:24 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-08 07:25 ooh right, prolly illegal in Russia 2014-02-08 07:26 H2O2? yes, hard to obtain 2014-02-08 07:26 use Plutonium instead ;-P 2014-02-08 07:26 lol 2014-02-08 07:26 btw have you ever used "liquid tin" ? 2014-02-08 07:27 nope 2014-02-08 07:27 I've bought a bottle to try it out 2014-02-08 07:27 liquid silver here 2014-02-08 07:27 it's a chemical tinning solution 2014-02-08 07:27 ooh that one 2014-02-08 07:27 you put the pcb inside for 20 minutes and tin precipitates from the solution 2014-02-08 07:27 on the copper 2014-02-08 07:27 yeah I think I tried that once a 40 years ago 2014-02-08 07:28 result was some metallic dirt on PCB that sticked to the fingers when touching it, instead of to the copper 2014-02-08 07:28 well chances that in those 40 years they managed to build it better 2014-02-08 07:28 or maybe not, no idea really 2014-02-08 07:31 I guess carefully drying the PCB and tin without touching surface, then spraying PCB with flux, then "curing" the whole thing with a blue welding flame.... 2014-02-08 07:32 but then, you probably could reach better results with solder paste 2014-02-08 07:32 well, the shop had a demo board tinned with this solution, it looked pretty rad 2014-02-08 07:33 definitely not "sticked to fingers better than to copper" 2014-02-08 07:33 fake? 2014-02-08 07:33 lol I seriously doubt that 2014-02-08 07:33 those guys (gals actually) have very high-quality supplies and I shop there for years 2014-02-08 07:34 prolly some current can do wonders anyway 2014-02-08 07:34 ooh, you say they prepared that themselves? 2014-02-08 07:34 yea 2014-02-08 07:35 well, then... 2014-02-08 07:35 another funny thing: I've bought several aerosols by cramolin there. I've not found a single place on the web to buy them, at least in single bottles 2014-02-08 07:36 Cramolin, have you heard it? it's a .de company 2014-02-08 07:36 not unknown that companies cheat though, like acme solder co winding stannol solder wire on their acme hub for doing the demo video 2014-02-08 07:36 make very nice (and absurdly expensive) aerosols. flux-off is particularly nice but they have several dozens of them for all imaginable purposes 2014-02-08 07:37 never heard of cramolin 2014-02-08 07:37 here we call that "Kontakt Chemie" 2014-02-08 07:37 dunno if it's a different localized name for same gue 2014-02-08 07:38 ooooh yes. exact same package design, guess it's a different name 2014-02-08 07:38 also explains why I wasn't able to find it anywhere 2014-02-08 07:38 http://www.kontaktchemie.com/KOC/ 2014-02-08 07:39 aah Kontact is CRC actually 2014-02-08 07:39 CRC? 2014-02-08 07:40 http://crcindustries.com/globalhome/ 2014-02-08 07:41 from CRC to CRamolin is not a far way to go, eh? 2014-02-08 07:42 heh 2014-02-08 07:45 http://www.kontaktchemie.com/KOC/KOCproducts.csp?CSPToken=bLhmMNhCqCm_qDqZf_5$iTV_Ef3UzIEfD1KIlpaicbI- is quite nice 2014-02-08 07:49 (CRC) e.g. click "IDS" on http://www.kontaktchemie.com/KOC/KOCproductdetail.csp?product=MULTI%20FOAM%2077 2014-02-08 07:51 ingredients: ... potassium hydroxide; caustic potash ... Phosphoric acid ... 2014-02-08 07:52 dang, that make a LOT of sense ¡ 2014-02-08 07:52 highly active, duh! 2014-02-08 07:53 oh, you mean an acid and a base at the same tim 2014-02-08 07:53 *time 2014-02-08 07:54 wait, where did you find those ingredients? I can't find any in the pdf at "TDS" 2014-02-08 07:56 IDS 2014-02-08 07:57 no such link 2014-02-08 07:58 that page throws error from that linkl 2014-02-08 07:58 damn JS 2014-02-08 07:58 crap 2014-02-08 07:59 from main page click on "multifoam 77" 2014-02-08 07:59 MULTISCHAUM 77 12x400 ML de,fr >>> IDS 2014-02-08 07:59 IDS is a link 2014-02-08 08:00 ... okay, there is no multifoam 77 link on the main page 2014-02-08 08:00 o.O 2014-02-08 08:00 no "multifoam" or "77" at all 2014-02-08 08:00 oh, if I switch to DE then there is 2014-02-08 08:01 it's there in english as well 2014-02-08 08:01 I need to switch "language on label" to DE, not site language 2014-02-08 08:01 but links never work as expected 2014-02-08 08:02 anyway, I think I understand the reason 2014-02-08 08:02 see, it's "ingredients", not "components". they wrote what they mixed in the solution, not what results 2014-02-08 08:02 so perhaps some of the components only are soluble in acidic environments, but after they're mixed together, they form something else which doesn't care about pH 2014-02-08 08:03 and at that point you can add your base 2014-02-08 08:03 umm, what? 2014-02-08 08:03 they wrote? where? 2014-02-08 08:03 http://www.crcind.com/csp/web/msds.csp?soap=62713-001 2014-02-08 08:03 "List of ingredients" 2014-02-08 08:03 not "components" 2014-02-08 08:04 yeah, sure 2014-02-08 08:05 anyway Kontaflon 85 is my personal recommendation for lubricant for special cases. Really amazing stuff 2014-02-08 08:06 sprayed the board of my pinball machine with it, and after that the balls were twice as fast, and no more wear on the paintings and varnish 2014-02-08 08:07 neat 2014-02-08 08:07 you have a pinball machine? 2014-02-08 08:07 I had 2014-02-08 08:07 quite some time ago 2014-02-08 08:07 I lost everything, several times 2014-02-08 08:08 I recall... li-ion fire 2014-02-08 08:08 :nod: but there the pinball machine already been gone 2014-02-08 08:09 yesterday I seen a TV report about those old machines, and I pondered getting one again 2014-02-08 08:10 console games never got the hook in me, but pinball... I started playing when I been 6 years old, or even earlier 2014-02-08 08:11 I used a beer crate to stand on when playing 2014-02-08 08:12 and after some 30min some of the personal of that bowling noticed me and chased me out 2014-02-08 08:12 a game been 10 Pfennig back when 2014-02-08 08:17 porchao has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-08 08:17 ooh, btw s/LiIon/NiMH/ though that's a suspicion only 2014-02-08 08:17 porchaso0 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2014-02-08 08:18 NiMH seem more dangerous to me than LiIon 2014-02-08 08:18 oh okay 2014-02-08 08:18 * whitequark has just peeled the film from a polycarbonate sheet 2014-02-08 08:18 it is beautiful. 2014-02-08 08:19 since they have no good emd-of-charge detection properties, I seen them heat up insanely high several times, in chargers 2014-02-08 08:19 the hotter those NiMH get, the lower the tempreature 2014-02-08 08:20 resistance? 2014-02-08 08:20 so when the charger misses the delta-V, it goes al the way till disaster 2014-02-08 08:20 eeek 2014-02-08 08:20 the hotter those NiMH get, the lower the voltage 2014-02-08 08:20 (misses dV) unless it has a heat sensor, and it better have one! 2014-02-08 08:21 fastchargers are supposed to stop when they detect decay of voltage caused by battery heatup 2014-02-08 08:22 yeah, pretty few have, and for sure the vacuum cleaner that prolly started that fire had any such fancy stuff 2014-02-08 08:22 it actually just had a series resistor and a 5mm barrel connector for external power supply 2014-02-08 08:22 do you have any appliances not posing a fire hazard? :D 2014-02-08 08:23 yeah, my smoke detectors ;-P 2014-02-08 08:23 haha 2014-02-08 08:23 okay, I'm off to get labeling paper, deionized water, more airtight containers and stuff 2014-02-08 08:24 fortunately it's all within 5 subway stops so not going to take too much time 2014-02-08 08:24 wich surprisingly reminds me to get a CO2-fire-extinguisher 2014-02-08 08:24 the power extinguishers are a disaster in themselves 2014-02-08 08:24 powder* 2014-02-08 08:25 you extinguish the flames, then you tear down the building since the powder ruined everything 2014-02-08 08:26 could skip extinguishing the flames then 2014-02-08 08:26 thus: CO2 extinguisher 2014-02-08 08:26 (halon extinguishers are forbidden - a shame) 2014-02-08 08:27 are they? my father installed a bunch on a power plant here in moscow 2014-02-08 08:28 well, maybe .de regulations are stricter 2014-02-08 08:41 I just found some, for exorbitant pricetag, exclusively approved for use in air- and spacecraft 2014-02-08 08:42 http://shop.segelflugbedarf24.de/product_info.php?language=de&info=p361_Halon-Feuerloescher.htm 2014-02-08 08:47 awesome short forum chat (sorry, german) - the last comment is golden http://www.audifieber.de/audiforum/threads/8850-Feuerlöscher-Halon-na-und 2014-02-08 08:51 hahaha 2014-02-08 09:03 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-02-08 09:05 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-08 09:24 xiangfu has quit [K-Lined] 2014-02-08 09:42 DocScrutinizer51 has quit [Read error: No route to host] 2014-02-08 09:44 DocScrutinizer51 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-08 10:49 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-08 11:04 pcercueiS2 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-08 11:28 pcercueiS2 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-02-08 11:31 kanzure has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-02-08 11:33 kanzure has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-08 11:59 DocScrutinizer51: by the way, I've looked again at cans in the shop and they're called "kontact chemie" here too 2014-02-08 11:59 I guess they rebranded themselves from "cramolin" even in .ru 2014-02-08 12:00 air 67 is a monster ;-) 2014-02-08 12:00 feels like 8 bar 2014-02-08 12:01 hehe 2014-02-08 12:01 I've bought some deionized water 2014-02-08 12:01 not as much because I don't trust tap water, but rather to ensure 100% reproducibility 2014-02-08 12:04 (air) costs more than gold though. Realy only good when you absolutely can't use other cheaper options 2014-02-08 12:04 $3/L... if I need a bit more of it, it's probably wise to invest in a deionizer 2014-02-08 12:04 (air) *everything* they make costs more than gold :D 2014-02-08 12:04 yeah 2014-02-08 12:04 btw, it's not actually air, it's propane+butane mix 2014-02-08 12:04 dunno why they call it "air" 2014-02-08 12:04 yep, i know 2014-02-08 12:05 err, it has no "flamable2 warnings 2014-02-08 12:06 mine has 2014-02-08 12:06 "flammable material: 100.0% wt." 2014-02-08 12:10 hmm, this http://www.kontaktchemie.com/KOC/KOCproductdetail.csp?product=DUST%20OFF%20HF not 2014-02-08 12:10 nfc what it is 2014-02-08 12:11 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-02-08 12:14 whitequark: which one exactly do you have? 2014-02-08 12:17 honestly, that website SUCKS! >> CSP-Request-Objekt-Inspektor<< rotfl! 2014-02-08 12:18 DocScrutinizer05: I think it's "DUSTER", not sure which number 2014-02-08 12:18 I'll tell you once I get home 2014-02-08 12:18 360? 2014-02-08 12:18 nfc 2014-02-08 12:18 http://prodiel.ru/images/duster_400.jpg 2014-02-08 12:19 this one says "not flamable when used according to instructions" - which is a pretty poor joke 2014-02-08 12:19 haha 2014-02-08 12:20 lindi-_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-02-08 12:21 in english: >>Non-flammable* formulation. * criteria according aerosol directive.<< 2014-02-08 12:23 while DUST OFF 360 SUPER says >>A non-flammable formulation in all conditions. << 2014-02-08 12:23 >>Designed for critical applications, where 100% safety is an absolute must.<< lol 2014-02-08 12:24 DUST OFF HF (HIGH FLOW) (mine): >>. A non-flammable pressurised gas, designed for applications where absolute safety is a must, it can even be used on energised equipment, when there is a risk for discharges.<< 2014-02-08 12:28 I'd be really wary of "non-flammable*" 2014-02-08 12:29 http://i.imgur.com/aAAjFwe.jpg 2014-02-08 12:29 this site is so abysmally bad. incredible. Select "English" on top right. Tick "Duster Spray" in left side menu. With "Language on product label ": German you see 6 products. with English you see only 3 2014-02-08 12:32 OOOH, on PRODUCT label. OMG 2014-02-08 12:32 "sorry, this spray is not available in english language" lol 2014-02-08 12:33 haha 2014-02-08 12:36 mhm, now i got it, finally 2014-02-08 12:36 tetrafluoroethane 75-10%0 2014-02-08 12:37 Dimethylether 5-10% 2014-02-08 12:37 nfc why they need 5-10% dimethylether in that stuff 2014-02-08 12:39 mine is tetrafluoroethane with 5..10% 1,1-Difluoroethane 2014-02-08 12:41 * DocScrutinizer05 notices much Fluor around him lately 2014-02-08 12:50 whitequark: I don't think the Kontakt chemie stuff ever had Butane/Propane in their duster sprays 2014-02-08 12:57 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-08 13:04 huh 2014-02-08 13:04 I've dissolved 250g of (NH4)2S2O8 and the water is much much colder 2014-02-08 13:05 specifically 9°C with room at 24°C 2014-02-08 13:05 8° even 2014-02-08 13:07 sure 2014-02-08 13:07 normal, no? 2014-02-08 13:07 I remember this effect from my classes, just wasn't expecting to observe it 2014-02-08 13:07 * DocScrutinizer05 forgot to get milk for the weekend, with all the Kontakt chemie stuff :-S 2014-02-08 13:08 it's just 3pm or 2pm there 2014-02-08 13:08 yep, but my shopee closing at 14:00 the latest 2014-02-08 13:08 wow 2014-02-08 13:08 that is inconvenient 2014-02-08 13:08 now I have to walk 1000m to get milk of inferior quality :-( 2014-02-08 13:09 euuugh 2014-02-08 13:09 isopropanol *stinks* 2014-02-08 13:09 yep 2014-02-08 13:09 I would even say reeks 2014-02-08 13:10 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-08 13:10 I once worked for a cleaning service where we cleaned a whole school's carpets (YES!), and the water vacuum needed iso spraying every 5 min to destroy the foam building up 2014-02-08 13:11 then continue vacuuming and dpread the fumes into the air 2014-02-08 13:11 spread even 2014-02-08 13:11 was real fun :-S 2014-02-08 13:12 I wonder if it's intentionally flavored to make sure no one drinks it 2014-02-08 13:12 no, i'm sure it really smells terrible 2014-02-08 13:13 genuine stinker 2014-02-08 13:18 hmm, maybe not: >>Isopropyl alcohol is denatured for certain uses, in which case the NFPA 704 rating is changed to 2,3,1.<< 2014-02-08 13:26 kanzure has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2014-02-08 13:27 kanzure has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-08 13:27 wiki says it has a peculiar odor 2014-02-08 13:28 "more pungent than ethanol" 2014-02-08 13:28 pungent indeed 2014-02-08 13:32 LOL >>The chewing of cordite, as a form of chewing gum was far from unknown in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. The sweet taste made it attractive, and it gave the user feelings similar to those produced by alcohol. (Due to its explosive qualities, however, several fatalities were reported, from chewing too strenuously.(Ref: http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/3281990 among other sources.))<< 2014-02-08 13:33 hahaha 2014-02-08 13:41 I wonder wtf goes on with that stuff. I thought nitroglycerine was toxic in all but the smallest dosages 2014-02-08 13:42 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-08 13:45 hrm, I wonder 2014-02-08 13:48 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-08 13:58 exploding chewing gum? 2014-02-08 14:04 hrm, I might want to get glasses out of proper glass and not polycarbonate 2014-02-08 14:04 with all this UV and stuff 2014-02-08 14:06 I hate non-glass glasses 2014-02-08 14:06 I only once had non-glass glasses, and in a week, they were scratched. 2014-02-08 14:07 these are quite scratch-resistant, I couldn't scratch them once in about three years 2014-02-08 14:07 maybe foru 2014-02-08 14:07 *four 2014-02-08 14:07 Maybe I'm careless enough about glasses, that I need glass ones 2014-02-08 14:07 My brain learned that I can place them anywhere anyhow, just not hit them 2014-02-08 14:08 and that's fatal for polycarbonate. 2014-02-08 14:08 I'm more worried that they're made from the same material I use for exposing PCBs specifically because it's UV-translarent 2014-02-08 14:08 (fatal for polycarbonate) maybe your polycarbonate is shitty or something 2014-02-08 14:08 :) 2014-02-08 14:08 can be 2014-02-08 14:08 because I never cared to think where I place my glasses and nah, they're smooth 2014-02-08 14:08 I didn't know about the UV 2014-02-08 14:09 I'm actually breaking the frame before scratch or break the lens 2014-02-08 14:09 I see, quite the opposite of my experience 2014-02-08 14:28 pcercuei has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-02-08 14:28 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-08 14:33 okay, now I made a 5% solution of NaOH and it is pretty damn hot 2014-02-08 14:34 I wonder why is enthalpy of dissolution so different 2014-02-08 14:34 in sign even 2014-02-08 14:37 viric has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-02-08 14:44 I have another interesting question for you: what happens to Cu2C2 when something happens. I don't see any gas or sth in there 2014-02-08 14:44 C2? 2014-02-08 14:44 :nod: 2014-02-08 14:44 like Cu=C=C=Cu ? 2014-02-08 14:45 probably 2014-02-08 14:45 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2014-02-08 14:45 or Cu-C≡C-Cu 2014-02-08 14:45 err Cu(II) 2014-02-08 14:45