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2014-02-04 05:56 <nicksydney> everybody split ?
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2014-02-04 07:52 <DocScrutinizer05> http://wstaw.org/m/2014/02/04/plasma-desktopwm3389.png
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2014-02-04 07:53 * DocScrutinizer05 headdesks - particularly since you can't purge more than one page worth of items. "Select all" means all *of this page*
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2014-02-04 07:55 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: write a script!
2014-02-04 07:55 <DocScrutinizer05> :nod:
2014-02-04 07:56 <DocScrutinizer05> pretty easy since page number is in URL
2014-02-04 07:57 <DocScrutinizer05> but nfc how to handle that crappy JS on pages
2014-02-04 07:57 <DocScrutinizer05> I heard grease monkey should be able to run scripts on rendered webpages
2014-02-04 07:58 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: eh, don't bother with greasemonkey
2014-02-04 07:58 <whitequark> look at the POST query it makes and emulate it with curl
2014-02-04 07:58 <whitequark> likely will involve message id -> get it with your favorite libxml binding, or even grep
2014-02-04 07:59 <DocScrutinizer05> eeew
2014-02-04 08:00 <DocScrutinizer05> I have not even an idea how auth is handled
2014-02-04 08:00 <whitequark> a cookie
2014-02-04 08:00 <whitequark> -H 'Cookie: ...'
2014-02-04 08:00 <whitequark> look at what the browser sends
2014-02-04 08:01 <DocScrutinizer05> nightmare
2014-02-04 08:01 <whitequark> in chromium I just press F12, Network and it nicely lays out the requests
2014-02-04 08:01 <whitequark> for firefox you need web developer tools addon or something
2014-02-04 08:02 <whitequark> been years since I used it.
2014-02-04 08:03 <DocScrutinizer05> midgard, what a crap!
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2014-02-04 10:11 <nicksydney> test jigs using pogo pins https://www.sparkfun.com/tutorials/138
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2014-02-04 10:37 <nicksydney> wpwrak: https://github.com/andete/PySWD SWD programmer with Python using Bus Pirate
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2014-02-04 13:12 <wpwrak> nicksydney: as long a your boards have no bottom-side components, you can indeed get away with such simple PCB-only fixtures :)
2014-02-04 13:14 <wpwrak> nicksydney: else, you'll see that mine are pretty much equivalent, with the differences being in a) using acrylic instead of pcb (because i need more depth), b) my registration being particularly poor in the case of ybpgm (not sure what went wrong, but it seems that i'm almost 1 mm off between acrylic and pcb. ironically, i made an
2014-02-04 13:17 <wpwrak> extra effort here to keep those coordinates perfectly matched. in that older MDF fixture it was all manual ... and quite accurate), and c) the holes for the pogo pins are much wider. that's because i'm too lazy to change tools and/or couldn't be bothered to buy a drill of exactly the right size. the pogo pins survive a bit of abuse, especially if they're as short as the ones i'm using, so not having mechanical support at the top is no
2014-02-04 13:17 <wpwrak> t a cause for immediate concern.
2014-02-04 13:19 <wpwrak> last but not least, yes, designing production testing is important. i skipped that for my firs "mass-produced" product, UBB. since it's hard to get that one wrong but i did it for my second one, the atben/atusb pair. here's the process:
2014-02-04 13:19 <wpwrak> http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/prod/
2014-02-04 13:20 <wpwrak> note: no proper fixture there. hadn't had time to develop one for it. there's a bit of a pseudo-fixture, though: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/prod/atusb-programming.jpg
2014-02-04 13:20 <whitequark> wpwrak: hm, I just had an idea
2014-02-04 13:21 <whitequark> why does a paste stencil need to be out of brass or copper? or for that matter any metal at all?
2014-02-04 13:21 <wpwrak> (this one actually did eventually load the pogo pints to their breaking point. but it took many cycles to get there.)
2014-02-04 13:21 <whitequark> wouldn't much more easily obtainable (and easier to work with) sheets of plastic be just fine?
2014-02-04 13:21 <wpwrak> probably for no reason other than durability. and don't they use steel ?
2014-02-04 13:22 <whitequark> perhaps
2014-02-04 13:22 <whitequark> actually, let me check how plastic will work. the bits I have right now should suffice...
2014-02-04 13:23 <whitequark> hrm. the pcb-gcode script can't generate toolpaths for that.
2014-02-04 13:24 <wpwrak> whitequark: high time to write your own toolpath-generating scripts :)
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2014-02-04 13:25 <whitequark> wpwrak: lol, no, I'll just modify it a bit
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2014-02-04 13:30 <whitequark> ... no license for it? darn
2014-02-04 13:30 <wpwrak> license ?
2014-02-04 13:31 <whitequark> for pcb-gcode script. it's in source form, but without any license info.
2014-02-04 13:32 <wpwrak> ah, that's handy :) good hunt ! :)
2014-02-04 13:33 <whitequark> hunt ?
2014-02-04 13:35 <wpwrak> hunting for licensing information
2014-02-04 13:35 <whitequark> oh. yeah. fortunately the authors are active.
2014-02-04 13:36 <whitequark> "The source is provided with no license. Use it as you wish." :/
2014-02-04 13:37 <larsc> public domain then
2014-02-04 13:38 <larsc> but I guess by "no license" they mean, no license where you need to sign a contract and pay money or something
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2014-02-04 15:07 <whitequark> oh, it actually has a license. I was looking at an older version.
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2014-02-04 19:27 <whitequark> wheee, I made it generate toolpaths for stencils
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2014-02-04 19:31 <whitequark> http://i.imgur.com/JIIKxcr.png
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2014-02-04 19:39 <whitequark> now that I think about it, why even bother with that spiralling thing? excess stencil material will just fall out
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2014-02-04 20:11 <wpwrak> a very astute observation ;-)
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2014-02-04 20:16 <whitequark> http://i.imgur.com/QagZnYg.jpg
2014-02-04 20:16 <whitequark> the one on the right is incompletely milled
2014-02-04 20:17 <whitequark> the one on the left is much better. all faults are due to the fact that I only had corrugated cardboard for a sacrificial material and it is not exactly flat
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2014-02-04 20:37 <whitequark> wpwrak: how does one, in general, reduce burr?
2014-02-04 20:37 <whitequark> should I increase or decrease feedrate?
2014-02-04 20:43 <nicksydney> wpwrak: http://www.cnbc.com/id/101388620 Rich Chinese buy visas in US and Australia
2014-02-04 20:47 <wpwrak> whitequark: yes, i'd reduce the feedrate or increase the spindle speed. if this doesn't help, let the mill run the path twice (the second time you can go faster since it does almost no work)
2014-02-04 20:48 <wpwrak> burr can also be cause by worn bits, but that would be a bit early soon your case
2014-02-04 20:48 <wpwrak> grmbl. the high art of editing. s/early soon/soon in/
2014-02-04 20:50 <wpwrak> other things to look for: a loose fixture, an unstable table, and lack of lubrication (if the material is hard)
2014-02-04 20:50 <whitequark> plastic :)
2014-02-04 20:50 <whitequark> it's polycarbonate sheets for laser printer.
2014-02-04 20:51 <wpwrak> okay, polycarbonate is actually quite hard. but not quite bad enough for that :)
2014-02-04 20:51 <whitequark> actually, polystyrene, not polycarbonate
2014-02-04 20:52 <wpwrak> with plastic, there's also the issue of finding the right speed. if you go too slow, you may melt it. but you seem to go fast in general, so that's probably not the issue
2014-02-04 20:52 <whitequark> ok. 1.4mm/s feedrate is better. let's try 1mm/s, and I'll add another 1/4 pass per pad to mill out the loose bits
2014-02-04 20:52 <wpwrak> so as a first step, it's go a little slower. you can also make a test pattern of parallel lines or such that will allow you to test parameters more rapidly
2014-02-04 20:53 <wpwrak> aah, still the stencil. i see.
2014-02-04 20:54 <wpwrak> flexing of the plastic is then probably the main issue. so yes, minimizing the forces should help.
2014-02-04 20:57 <whitequark> yea, it flexes in a nasty way
2014-02-04 20:58 <wpwrak> i guess that's why they use steel ;-)
2014-02-04 20:59 <wpwrak> maybe try to glue it down, possibly via adhesive tape. that would restrain the movement. then you could look for a way to chemically weaken/dissolve the glue.
2014-02-04 21:00 <nicksydney> whitequark: Bitcoin CPUs Coming, Says Investor http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1320857
2014-02-04 21:00 <whitequark> lolwhat
2014-02-04 21:01 <nicksydney> wpwrak: https://community.freescale.com/community/the-embedded-beat/blog/2014/01/28/kinetis-mini-mcus-good-things-do-come-in-small-packages?cid=social18045934 ... too hard to solder :)
2014-02-04 21:01 <whitequark> nicksydney: that Thomas guy says the right thing, actually.
2014-02-04 21:01 <wpwrak> else, i'm sure china makes also nice cheap laser cutters ;-) that would eliminate the mechanical wear
2014-02-04 21:02 <whitequark> nicksydney: (and the part about CPUs in the headline? the article author pulled it purely out of their own ass.)
2014-02-04 21:04 <whitequark> wpwrak: well, yeah. they start from about $1200 for a ridiculously tiny one
2014-02-04 21:04 <whitequark> which is big, requires water cooling, and whatnot. I'd rather fix the CNC machine. :)
2014-02-04 21:05 <wpwrak> hmm. maybe i could get you interested in a pick & place machine then ? http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/955073560/HOT_Selling_TM220A_SMT_Pick_and.html
2014-02-04 21:06 <wpwrak> they also have a larger model with 28 reels, USD 1000 more
2014-02-04 21:07 <wpwrak> i want, in this order: 1) a major reform of customs procedures in argentina, 2) some more space, and 3) such a device :)
2014-02-04 21:07 <whitequark> wpwrak: you nailed it :)
2014-02-04 21:08 <whitequark> although for $5k I'll be perfectly fine with either placing stuff myself or customizing the machine I already have
2014-02-04 21:08 <whitequark> but, yeah, space is a problem. I'm already out of it.
2014-02-04 21:10 <wpwrak> (laser cutter) this one doesn't look too bad. doesn't seem to need external air. dunno how the water cooling works, though. http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/621992867/60w_Smal_Co2_Laser_Cutting_Machine.html
2014-02-04 21:12 <wpwrak> whitequark: btw, did you ever figure out how to use the fixtures ?
2014-02-04 21:12 <whitequark> wpwrak: nope
2014-02-04 21:13 <whitequark> I guess I'll roll my own anyway, these won't suit my thin, flat material requirements very well anyway
2014-02-04 21:14 <nicksydney> Video: Building an open source PCB printer - http://atmelcorporation.wordpress.com/2014/02/04/video-building-an-open-source-pcb-printer%E2%80%A8%E2%80%A8/
2014-02-04 21:14 <wpwrak> (customizing the cnc mill) it may get a little tedious. you need to add air pumps, an elevated table, a feeder system, a fairly complicated head (with a motor for rotation and also the transport needle, although that needle probably doesn't need to be motorized)
2014-02-04 21:15 <whitequark> you do have a point
2014-02-04 21:21 <wpwrak> nicksydney: that's a photo plotter ;-) we've had that technology for just how many centuries now ? ;-)
2014-02-04 21:26 <whitequark> combines the worst of wet and dry processes?
2014-02-04 21:26 <whitequark> slow, requires chemicals
2014-02-04 21:26 <whitequark> wpwrak: ok, I've figured out the problem with plastic flexing.
2014-02-04 21:27 <whitequark> see, it actually results in burr being pushed *under* workpiece
2014-02-04 21:33 <wpwrak> hmm, what do you use as support ?
2014-02-04 21:33 <whitequark> I've duct-taped it to a PCB
2014-02-04 21:34 <whitequark> the bare side, to be more specific
2014-02-04 21:34 <wpwrak> that ought to be stiff enough
2014-02-04 21:34 <wpwrak> maybe try reversing the spindle ;-)
2014-02-04 21:34 <whitequark> mmhm
2014-02-04 21:34 <whitequark> it actually pushes material to both sides of the sheet, so it won't do anything
2014-02-04 21:34 <wpwrak> not sure if this won't just make things much worse, though :)
2014-02-04 21:35 <wpwrak> ah, i see. lower speed didn't help enough ?
2014-02-04 21:35 <whitequark> I think the problem is that I'm using an engraving bit, but ought to use a real endmill with flutes
2014-02-04 21:35 <whitequark> no point in lowering speed under 100mm/min. no difference in results.
2014-02-04 21:35 <whitequark> maybe I should run spindle slower?
2014-02-04 21:35 <wpwrak> (engraving) that sounds suspicious, yes
2014-02-04 21:36 <whitequark> according to datasheet right now it should run around 6000 rpm
2014-02-04 21:36 <wpwrak> you can try that. not sure what it does. mine if fixed-speed
2014-02-04 21:36 <wpwrak> have you tried running it twice on the same path ?
2014-02-04 21:37 <whitequark> that won't really do anything. see, if you look at the bare sheet from the thin side, it looks like this:
2014-02-04 21:37 <whitequark> ----------
2014-02-04 21:37 <whitequark> and after milling, it looks like this:
2014-02-04 21:37 <whitequark> -----III----
2014-02-04 21:37 <whitequark> where III is the material pushed to the sides of the sheet
2014-02-04 21:38 <whitequark> it's not *inside* the holes, meaning the bit won't touch it
2014-02-04 21:38 <whitequark> it's basically a bevel now
2014-02-04 21:39 <wpwrak> try it anyway :) at least with endmills, this works wonders
2014-02-04 21:50 <whitequark> nah, it's worse this way
2014-02-04 21:51 <whitequark> & spindle speed (50%) does not noticeably affect result
2014-02-04 21:51 <wpwrak> ah, pity
2014-02-04 21:51 <wpwrak> hmm, lowering the spindle speed is what i would have suggested next
2014-02-04 21:52 <wpwrak> well, if you want to fix the plastic very solidly, you'd cut another pcb such that it has slightly larger openings, then make a "sandwich"
2014-02-04 21:53 <whitequark> from what I understand, material being pushed under the sheet has quite a leverage for pulling it out of the fixture, or flexing the plastic & fixture
2014-02-04 21:53 <whitequark> mainly fixture, PET doesn't stretch at all
2014-02-04 21:54 <whitequark> (yes, I was wrong two times, it's PET actually. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005T8WR6I
2014-02-04 21:55 <wpwrak> hmm. maybe just wait until you get the endmills.
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2014-02-04 22:08 <whitequark> yeah
2014-02-04 22:09 <whitequark> to summarize: https://gist.github.com/whitequark/4cfc6c6df7916605d040
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