2014-01-27 00:13 <DocScrutinizer05> anybody knows about pagers and any widely adopted standard those are using (or the lack thereof)?
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2014-01-27 08:58 <larsc> first the robots, now this http://techcrunch.com/2014/01/26/google-deepmind/
2014-01-27 08:59 <whitequark> AI craze, round 2 ?
2014-01-27 08:59 <whitequark> followed by AI winter, round 2, I guess
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2014-01-27 09:02 <larsc> you know the saying "In 10 years there will be a breakthrough in AI development"
2014-01-27 09:02 <whitequark> "In 50 years we'll have cold fusion"
2014-01-27 09:03 <whitequark> good chance it's just another acquihire for google. analytics, that's how they call AI that actually works
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2014-01-27 09:06 <larsc> well, they are supposed to work for Ray Kurzweil at google
2014-01-27 09:09 <whitequark> "Kurzweil claims to have forecast the demise of the Soviet Union due to new technologies such as cellular phones and fax machines disempowering authoritarian governments by removing state control over the flow of information"
2014-01-27 09:09 <whitequark> cute.
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2014-01-27 09:10 <larsc> he probably also did also forecast a lot of other things that did not happen
2014-01-27 09:11 <larsc> "The best way to have good ideas is to have many ideas@
2014-01-27 09:11 <whitequark> the statement above is false as well
2014-01-27 09:12 <whitequark> I mean, USSR didn't fall due to that reason, and GCF can be quite effective as well
2014-01-27 09:12 <larsc> right
2014-01-27 09:14 apelete__ is now known as apelete
2014-01-27 09:17 <whitequark> ugh, ebay doesn't actually notify when the seller responds to a case, wtf
2014-01-27 09:17 <whitequark> they responded at 24th and I missed it :/
2014-01-27 09:19 <whitequark> hm, actually it does, the email just got lost.
2014-01-27 09:19 <whitequark> wtf
2014-01-27 09:20 <whitequark> ".Friend,this item is the top-quality. So during two years warranty time, mostly it will not have any problem. If it has the problem, we will send you the replacement to replace it. Mostly it will be resolved."
2014-01-27 09:20 <whitequark> I like their use of "mostly"
2014-01-27 09:20 <whitequark> at least it's honest
2014-01-27 09:49 <whitequark> how are cylindrical connectors with 2, 4, ... pins inside called?
2014-01-27 09:49 <whitequark> they look like DIN, but are much bigger
2014-01-27 09:50 <whitequark> http://www.jinlantrade.com/ebay/3020t/img16.JPG
2014-01-27 09:50 <whitequark> http://www.jinlantrade.com/ebay/3020t/img19.jpg
2014-01-27 09:51 <roh> chinese plugs
2014-01-27 09:51 <roh> we got the same on our mill controller
2014-01-27 09:52 <whitequark> well duh, can't put that into digikey
2014-01-27 09:52 <roh> make sure you get a set with yours, but they are available if not supplied
2014-01-27 09:52 <whitequark> I want to put another connector in a spare hole in the box
2014-01-27 09:52 <whitequark> and it's convenient, not to say already has the proper size
2014-01-27 09:52 <whitequark> but no clue where to source
2014-01-27 09:55 <whitequark> roh: what mill do you use btw?
2014-01-27 09:56 <roh> we got a syil bf20 vario
2014-01-27 09:59 <roh> http://www.optimum-machines.com/products/milling-machines/bf-20-vario/index.html
2014-01-27 09:59 <whitequark> roh: actually... searching "chinese plug" on ebay worked :D
2014-01-27 09:59 <roh> the old version (no rpm meter, no belts on the motors)
2014-01-27 10:00 <roh> we got it already cnc converted, with ball spindles and big ass steppers directly mounted where the handwheels were (those moved out by the motor length)
2014-01-27 10:01 <roh> the controller was delivered with a mach3 demo, but we use linuxcnc
2014-01-27 10:02 <roh> recirculating ball screw
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2014-01-27 12:28 <apelete> wpwrak: about soldering wire, better to use lead free or is lead solder ok ?
2014-01-27 12:31 <apelete> wpwrak: was going for lead solder before reading that it is prohibited in the EU, but it seems lead free generally melts at higher temperatures
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2014-01-27 12:32 <CYB3R> there are many opinions about soldering wire
2014-01-27 12:32 <CYB3R> I think that 63/37 is the best
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2014-01-27 13:00 <whitequark> apelete: lead free is shit
2014-01-27 13:01 <whitequark> really, the only reason people use lead free is because of ridiculously strict RoHS restrictions, if you want good soldering, use leaded
2014-01-27 13:01 <whitequark> *especially* for prototypes and such
2014-01-27 13:01 <whitequark> you will only reach harmful levels if you do leaded soldering 24/7 for years
2014-01-27 13:04 <apelete> whitequark: haha, was wondering how a higher melting point temperature could be a good thing in my case anyway, now it's clear :)
2014-01-27 13:04 <apelete> will look for a good Sn/Pb solder wire then
2014-01-27 13:08 <whitequark> 63/37 is pretty much standard
2014-01-27 13:09 <whitequark> I guess telling you to not use russian solder would be excessive :p
2014-01-27 13:09 <apelete> only found 60/40 so far
2014-01-27 13:09 <whitequark> but, really, don't be too greedy on it. I have ASAHI solder, with flux inside, it's quite great
2014-01-27 13:09 <whitequark> 60/40 is same thing
2014-01-27 13:13 <apelete> okay, will go for a reasonably priced 60/40, not too cheap though (went the cheap way in the past, painful memory)
2014-01-27 13:13 <apelete> thanks
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2014-01-27 13:16 <wpwrak> 60/40 != 63/37 !
2014-01-27 13:17 <whitequark> wpwrak: is there much difference?
2014-01-27 13:17 <whitequark> (bbiab)
2014-01-27 13:17 <wpwrak> in 63/37 all components melt at the same time. in 60/40 they melt at different temperatures, so you have a distinguishable "pasty" stage
2014-01-27 13:18 <wpwrak> if you need that, e.g., to intentionally make solder bridges, get 60/40. if you don't need that, i.e., because solder bridges are exactly what you don't want to see, get 63/37.
2014-01-27 13:19 <wpwrak> apelete: regarding lead-free, i'd say: if you plan to sell it, use lead-free. else, use leaded
2014-01-27 13:20 <wpwrak> lead-free is harder to work with. it's doable but you have to work at higher power levels, increasing the risk of doing damage.
2014-01-27 13:22 <wpwrak> whitequark: the difference isn't huge, but noticeable
2014-01-27 13:23 <wpwrak> apelete: and don't forget to get flux :) flux is the smt-solderer's best friend
2014-01-27 13:25 <apelete> wpwrak: thanks for the details. I don't plan on doing a solder bridge, I find the pad too small anyway. let's see if I can find 63/37
2014-01-27 13:25 <whitequark> wpwrak: oooooh, that explains some things
2014-01-27 13:25 <whitequark> I should get some eutectic solder then
2014-01-27 13:26 <wpwrak> yup :)
2014-01-27 13:26 <whitequark> never thought the 3% difference was significant, fool me!
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2014-01-27 13:26 <wpwrak> metallurgy is a direct descendent of alchemy ;-)
2014-01-27 13:27 <wpwrak> there is a bewildering variety of solder formulas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solder#Solder_alloys
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2014-01-27 13:31 <nicksydney> wpwrak: https://github.com/nekromant/antares
2014-01-27 13:31 <wpwrak> apelete: another parameter is the thickness of the solder wire. if you have a choice, for smt, thin is preferable since it makes it easier to get a small quantity.(thin: < 0.7 mm)
2014-01-27 13:33 <wpwrak> nicksydney: nice. might have things worth stealing :)
2014-01-27 13:33 <nicksydney> not steal..borrow :)
2014-01-27 13:34 <larsc> I only need three things for smd soldering: flux, flux and flux ;)
2014-01-27 13:34 <wpwrak> apelete: for the flux, you get three basic types: RA, water-soluble, and no-clean. RA is the most vigorous but it's very sticky and a pain to remove from the pcb. (and you must remove it since it attacks metals)
2014-01-27 13:35 <whitequark> there's also RMA, isn't it?
2014-01-27 13:36 <wpwrak> apelete: water soluble is less powerful but also less sticky. i find it a good compromise. "water soluble" means "hot demineralized water under high pressure". so it's not quite as easy to get rid of at it may sound, but it's feasible. i use a cheap ultrasonic cleaner for that.
2014-01-27 13:37 <wpwrak> whitequark: yeah, in think RMA and RA are in the sama ballpark. not even sure what i had.
2014-01-27 13:37 <whitequark> wpwrak: AFAIK RMA does not need to be cleaned
2014-01-27 13:37 <whitequark> (plus I never cleaned it and I have some >5yr old boards which are not corroded little bit)
2014-01-27 13:38 <wpwrak> apelete: "no clean" promises that you don't need to clean up but i'd be careful with such statements. it's the weakest of the three and i found that the one i tried didn't help enough with the soldering.
2014-01-27 13:38 <wpwrak> whitequark: RMA is still aggressive. the only one you're supposed to be able to leave on the board is "no clean".
2014-01-27 13:38 <apelete> wpwrak: shouldn't the flux be embedded into the solder wire already ?
2014-01-27 13:38 <wpwrak> apelete: there is a little bit there but it's not enough for smt
2014-01-27 13:39 <whitequark> wpwrak: hm, " RMA flux is formulated to result in a residue which is not significantly corrosive, with cleaning being preferred but optional."
2014-01-27 13:39 <whitequark> I guess so
2014-01-27 13:40 <wpwrak> whitequark: also, the flux will happily act as a conductor. the resistance is typically of a few dozen kOhms, so you may not notice it unless you work with low currents. but when you notice it, it will be very irritating :)
2014-01-27 13:41 <wpwrak> besides, a board full of flux is just dirty :)
2014-01-27 13:41 <whitequark> yeah
2014-01-27 13:42 <wpwrak> i clean the board also to be able to inspect things. if all is full of flux you see nothing.
2014-01-27 13:57 <apelete> wpwrak: damn, flux seems to be a field of its own, and I wasn't even planning on getting any initially (didn't know the little amount of flux in the solder wire wasn't enough)
2014-01-27 13:59 <apelete> it seems there was a *lot* of things I was doing wrong when I soldered the serial line on the nanonote (tried many times before having a good joint back then)
2014-01-27 14:00 <whitequark> I've always had moderate to good success with lots of RMA
2014-01-27 14:00 <whitequark> and a truly epic failure with a water-soluble flux called TT
2014-01-27 14:01 <whitequark> claimed to be non-conductive
2014-01-27 14:01 <whitequark> it is actually neither water-soluble nor non-conductive, which provided for some funny results and weeks of headscratching
2014-01-27 14:02 <whitequark> seriously, you get a head-start just by virtue of not having access to solders and fluxes made in russia
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2014-01-27 14:12 <wpwrak> ;-))
2014-01-27 14:12 <wpwrak> sometimes, less can indeed be more :)
2014-01-27 14:17 <whitequark> solders, fluxes, ICs, connectors (they STILL sell about 500 SKUs of bakelite connectors), anything made of plastic, etc
2014-01-27 14:18 <whitequark> old tools however can be seriously great. my father's caliper was amazing
2014-01-27 14:18 <wpwrak> heh :) old tools are often much better than new ones
2014-01-27 14:18 <whitequark> iirc cost him ~40 roubles in USSR times. a book would cost, say, 1.5
2014-01-27 14:18 <whitequark> engineer's wage would be ~150
2014-01-27 14:21 <whitequark> a scope I had (C1-68) was however not so amazing
2014-01-27 14:21 <whitequark> its weight in kgs was actually higher than bandwidth in mhz
2014-01-27 14:23 <whitequark> ... about 10kg/mhz actually
2014-01-27 14:23 <wpwrak> a 10 MHz scope ? nice ! ;-)
2014-01-27 14:24 <whitequark> if only! 1mhz
2014-01-27 14:24 <whitequark> was quite a feat to transport it across moscow with my bare hands and public transport
2014-01-27 14:26 <whitequark> because it was quite huge and also had a CRT. had to take care not to shatter that.
2014-01-27 14:27 <wpwrak> ah, crt not firmly attached ? :)
2014-01-27 14:27 <wpwrak> or was it difficult because of the ice and snow ?
2014-01-27 14:27 <wpwrak> and the erratic movements of the horse carts ...
2014-01-27 14:28 <whitequark> firmly, actually I thought it was too rigidly attached -> easy to shatter with sudden movements
2014-01-27 14:28 <whitequark> yeah, the whole ice and snow deal, too
2014-01-27 14:38 <wpwrak> (shatter) hmm, so no case, just the tube ?
2014-01-27 14:42 <whitequark> no, it has a case
2014-01-27 14:43 <wpwrak> probably made of hardened russian undestructium
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2014-01-27 18:06 * dos1 received his NanoNote today :)
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2014-01-27 18:17 <wpwrak> welcome to the club ! :)
2014-01-27 18:36 <ysionneau> :)
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2014-01-27 20:02 <kristianpaul> :)
2014-01-27 20:04 <DocScrutinizer05> I'd love to learn how sharism(?) managed to build the cases and mech parts for NN
2014-01-27 20:05 <DocScrutinizer05> then otoh checking out status of sharism and NN today, I maybe don't need to know
2014-01-27 20:05 <DocScrutinizer05> except for learning what to NOT do
2014-01-27 20:08 <DocScrutinizer05> it all feels like trying to sell milk from customer's "own" known named cow to customer in *supermarket*, packed into a bottle of customer's design. Of course at a price competitive to standard milk
2014-01-27 20:10 <dos1> DocScrutinizer05: wasn't NN based on some chinese notebook/calendar/mp3 player, reusing its case and overall design?
2014-01-27 20:12 <DocScrutinizer05> nfc
2014-01-27 20:12 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer05: you're about right about the price calculation :)
2014-01-27 20:12 * dos1 started dgClock and feels like a newbie who just launched vim
2014-01-27 20:12 <wpwrak> and yes, the design is licensed. it's a modification of a dictionary. they made a number of changes, but the basic design already existed.
2014-01-27 20:14 <dos1> damn it
2014-01-27 20:15 <wpwrak> dos1: broke it already ?
2014-01-27 20:15 <dos1> I was sure that I already tried every key and lots of different key combinations in order to find that one which quits that app with no success
2014-01-27 20:15 <dos1> so I downloaded the sources of dgClock and looked how to quit
2014-01-27 20:15 <dos1> turned out it was escape button *facepalm*
2014-01-27 20:16 <dos1> I was like "no way", presses esc, and then like "no way" again :D
2014-01-27 20:17 <dos1> actually it's the second time I overlooked esc button when trying to quit from some app... it's in a quite strange place
2014-01-27 20:19 <dos1> anyway, I thought it was cool even with stock rootfs
2014-01-27 20:19 <DocScrutinizer05> even worse: while it originally been invented for exactly this purpose ( dict "escape"), it is not even existing on e.g. N900. And generally not used that way in DOS and Linux
2014-01-27 20:20 <dos1> just reflashed... and boy, so many awesome stuff there
2014-01-27 20:20 <dos1> and it even (mostly) works! :D
2014-01-27 20:20 <DocScrutinizer05> originally there been other useful keys like "help" that now is "F1"...
2014-01-27 20:21 <DocScrutinizer05> "prtscreen" which is usually used for dunnowhat but not for printing a screen copy
2014-01-27 20:22 <DocScrutinizer05> "break" which is generally ignored nowadays, and if it's not then it's a lame hotkey for ^C
2014-01-27 20:22 <DocScrutinizer05> same with "pause" and ^S
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2014-01-27 20:30 <wpwrak> "can you please F1 me with this ?"
2014-01-27 20:33 <wpwrak> i think Pause is pretty much meant to be like ^S
2014-01-27 20:33 <wpwrak> and what's more worrying are all the "multimedia" keys they're putting on keyboards nowadays. as if they weren't big enough already.
2014-01-27 20:34 <wpwrak> and even small keyboards get an obligatory row of dedicated function keys. even the ben has that madness !
2014-01-27 20:43 <DocScrutinizer05> right. sorry I'm supposed to appreciate that I'm not well and shouldn't touch any IT. Of course "Pause" is ^S
2014-01-27 20:43 <DocScrutinizer05> funny enough it's sometimes also ^Q
2014-01-27 20:45 <wpwrak> i think it's a toggle
2014-01-27 20:45 <wpwrak> got a flu ?
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2014-01-27 20:46 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, that's what it's technically meant to be, emulated by sending ^Q when ^S-mode active, and ^S when no ^S-mode active
2014-01-27 20:46 <DocScrutinizer05> no, severe burnout all levels
2014-01-27 20:47 <wpwrak> uh uh. then you should perhaps have a beer and take a nap.
2014-01-27 20:47 <DocScrutinizer05> saw it coming, for like 6 months now
2014-01-27 20:47 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm afraid one beer and one nap will not do anything
2014-01-27 20:48 <wpwrak> well, it'll be a start :)
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2014-01-27 20:48 <DocScrutinizer05> :nod: pending since errr Thursday
2014-01-27 20:48 <DocScrutinizer05> the beer, not the nap
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2014-01-27 20:49 <DocScrutinizer05> actually i had 11h of nap last night, feels like being sick
2014-01-27 20:50 <wpwrak> beer FOUR days overdue ?!? oh dear. someone please call an ambulance !
2014-01-27 20:50 <DocScrutinizer05> actually not only the beer but also the shower and leaving flat
2014-01-27 20:51 <DocScrutinizer05> I prolly shouldn't elaborate on all that
2014-01-27 20:53 <DocScrutinizer05> I should shut down that friggin PC and take care to restore some normality to about every other aspect of my life. Internet is the only domain that actually doesn't need such care yet
2014-01-27 20:54 <wpwrak> yeah, we'll try to keep it running while you have your shower and your beer :)
2014-01-27 20:54 <DocScrutinizer05> funny side effect: you can't catch a flu when you live in quarantine
2014-01-27 20:57 <wpwrak> naw, it somehow finds you anyway
2014-01-27 20:57 <wpwrak> plus, your immune system gets weaker that way
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2014-01-27 21:21 <apelete> larsc: are you there ?
2014-01-27 21:21 <larsc> yes
2014-01-27 21:22 <apelete> hi
2014-01-27 21:23 <apelete> I've been trying to figure out what was wrong with the dma code in jz4740_mmc, to no avail
2014-01-27 21:24 <apelete> larsc: last log I got was http://paste.debian.net/78701/
2014-01-27 21:25 <larsc> do you get any data via dma?
2014-01-27 21:26 <apelete> don't think so, the sd card does not mount anymore
2014-01-27 21:26 <larsc> but it looks as if the transfer is completed
2014-01-27 21:27 <larsc> you might need to invalidate the dcache after a transfer
2014-01-27 21:27 <larsc> after a read transfer
2014-01-27 21:27 <larsc> and flush it before a write transfer
2014-01-27 21:27 <apelete> what's the dcache and how do I do that ?
2014-01-27 21:28 <apelete> larsc: ah I see flush_dcache_page(miter->page); in the code
2014-01-27 21:30 <larsc> that looks good
2014-01-27 21:30 <larsc> the dcache is the data cache of the cpu
2014-01-27 21:31 <larsc> you need to flush it to the real memory since the DMA will read from real memory
2014-01-27 21:31 <apelete> larsc: ok, right now in the code for pio mode flush_dcache_page is only use in read_data()
2014-01-27 21:32 <apelete> so fpor dma I use it after read and before write operations ?
2014-01-27 21:32 <apelete> s/fpor/for
2014-01-27 21:32 <qi-bot> apelete meant: "so for dma I use it after read and before write operations ?"
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2014-01-27 21:34 <larsc> flush before write, invalidate after read
2014-01-27 21:35 <larsc> invalidate means you tell the cpu that the data in the cache is outdated
2014-01-27 21:43 <apelete> larsc: okay, I see that flush_dcache_page() does both writeback and invalidate operations (here: http://lxr.free-electrons.com/source/arch/mips/include/asm/cacheflush.h?a=mips#L24)
2014-01-27 21:45 <apelete> so I guess I can use it to flush before write and invalidate after read as you said
2014-01-27 21:48 <apelete> now, let's see how I get a struct page pointer from struct mmc_data
2014-01-27 22:44 <apelete> larsc: same "error -22 whilst initialising SD card
2014-01-27 22:44 <apelete> http://paste.debian.net/78723/
2014-01-27 22:44 <apelete> git diff -> http://paste.debian.net/78725/
2014-01-27 22:45 <apelete> larsc: is there a way to check the data read by the dma ?
2014-01-27 22:48 <DocScrutinizer05> http://uk.farnell.com/texas-instruments/cc1111f32rsp/transceiver-rf-with-mcu-36qfn/dp/1573890  http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1734581.pdf  300/433/868/900MHz transceicver CPU
2014-01-27 22:49 <DocScrutinizer05> Low-power SoC wireless application soperating in the 315/433/868/915 MH zISM/SRD bands
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2014-01-27 23:41 <DocScrutinizer05> ((<larsc> invalidate means you tell the cpu that the data in the cache is outdated)) something some CPUs do on a hw level by snooping on RAM addr/ctrl-lines to detect writes to addresses that are in dcache
2014-01-27 23:42 <DocScrutinizer05> flush is particularly important when you do mem-mapped IO
2014-01-27 23:43 <DocScrutinizer05> ...or are working on a multicore platform
2014-01-27 23:44 <DocScrutinizer05> ...for data that's supposed to get transferred from one CPU to the other, when both CPUs don't use same dcache
2014-01-27 23:45 <DocScrutinizer05> ARM has a special "mailbox" IP for that, basically a hw FIFO that creates some datalink between any arbitrary 2 cores on SoC
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2014-01-27 23:46 <DocScrutinizer05> PL320 PrimeCell
2014-01-27 23:48 <DocScrutinizer05> on some modem+AP SoC the mailbox is used to transfer addr of a RAM buffer from sender to receiver CPU. In that case you need to make sure the buffer got flushed from dcache before you hand it over to the desination CPU
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2014-01-27 23:50 <DocScrutinizer05> similar considerations apply to USB and HSI and generally any high speed DMA based IO interfaces
2014-01-27 23:55 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer05: TI have quite a lot of CCxxxx chips with similar characteristics. the sub-GHz bands have long range and are usually not as crowded as 2.4 GHz but they have the disadvantage of being more restricted and having limited geographical reach
2014-01-27 23:57 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah. Anyway that chip looks quite nice for the requirement spec "general purpose 433/868MHz radio, for all sorts of home automation, garage door openers, stereo headphones, etc"
2014-01-27 23:58 <DocScrutinizer05> X10 is 433MHz?
2014-01-27 23:58 <apelete> wpwrak: couldn't find 63/37 solder wire in EU, it seems they only sell 60/40 around here
2014-01-27 23:58 <apelete> wpwrak: does this look good to you ? http://www.ebay.fr/itm/Solder-Reel-Leaded-Omega-II-250g-22SWG-Sn63-Pb-37-2-flux-/291053556827?pt=UK_Home_Garden_PowerTools_SM&hash=item43c424d45b
2014-01-27 23:59 <wpwrak> looks great