2014-01-09 00:00 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-01-09 00:22 wpwrak_: can you point me to one sample code inside the kernel for me to take a look and learn from there if you can ...the one that is in the userspace.. 2014-01-09 00:32 mirko_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 2014-01-09 00:32 mirko has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 00:34 sample code of a closed driver ? that would be tricky ;-) i'm not even sure we have such "stubs" in the regular kernel. we shouldn't. 2014-01-09 00:38 wpwrak_: no ..not closed driver..the part that you mention the kernel code of the closed driver :) 2014-01-09 00:40 maybe look at the sites of nvidia or amd-ati. dunno where this sort of stuff lives. i try to give it a very very wide berth ;-) 2014-01-09 00:49 jekhor_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 2014-01-09 01:06 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2014-01-09 01:06 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 01:08 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-01-09 01:11 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 01:16 FDCX_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 01:43 No 'ISE' nor 'WebPack' feature version 2013.03 was available 2014-01-09 01:43 for part 'xc6slx45'. 2014-01-09 01:43 WAT? 2014-01-09 01:43 ahh 2014-01-09 01:50 let see if just was re-request it because newver ise version 2014-01-09 02:02 yeap 2014-01-09 02:08 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2014-01-09 02:11 DocScrutinizer05 has quit [Disconnected by services] 2014-01-09 02:11 DocScrutinizer05 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 02:12 FDCX_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-01-09 02:14 ysionnea1 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 02:14 eintopf_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 02:14 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2014-01-09 02:14 woakas has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2014-01-09 02:14 eintopf has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2014-01-09 02:14 ysionneau has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2014-01-09 02:15 woakas has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 02:16 FDCX_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 02:35 FDCX_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-01-09 03:07 pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo] 2014-01-09 03:07 FDCX has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2014-01-09 03:07 FDCX has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 03:08 wpwrak_: theoretically it should be possible to create a pad that can be used to solder this pins http://i01.i.aliimg.com/photo/v0/541325931/1_0mm_90_degree_pin_header.jpg right 2014-01-09 03:13 it's just a header. we have tons of footprints for that :) 2014-01-09 03:15 wpwrak_: i don't want to drill..so was thinking i solder it on top of the board 2014-01-09 03:16 so i solder the 90degree part to the board and leave the other part hanging out to connect something to it 2014-01-09 03:20 yes, you can make pads of that sort. see Connector > PCB > Pads > Array > 120x60mil 2014-01-09 03:21 ... in http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/kicad-libs-modules.pdf 2014-01-09 03:22 "http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/kicad-libs-modules.pdf" <--- this is my bible :) 2014-01-09 03:24 yes i've ben using that pad array also for my power (+) and (-) ) 2014-01-09 03:24 :) 2014-01-09 03:24 i wish someone would resurrect the command-line options of kicad (and in this case especially eeschema). then we could have an up to date "bible" for components as well ... 2014-01-09 03:25 (+) and (-) looks like navel to me...man too long in front of computer i suppose :) 2014-01-09 03:29 love TI datasheet they have sample setup for their product..make it easy for mere mortal like myself :) 2014-01-09 03:30 porchao has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 2014-01-09 03:36 porchao has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 03:45 * wpwrak_ wonders where my little parcel from digi-key may be. one entry from memphis just around the time a plane left for south america. then a few hours later another one. did it fall of the plane ? is it almost here ? what does schroedinger say ? 2014-01-09 03:48 porchao has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 2014-01-09 03:51 wpwrak_: from my intuition calculation it will reach tomorrow morning :) 2014-01-09 03:54 fire has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 04:01 porchao has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 04:12 qwebirc50817 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 04:13 qwebirc50817 is now known as rjeffries 2014-01-09 04:17 an ARM based SOC from RockChip Electronics Ltd opens up to some extent 2014-01-09 04:17 MIWA PlayKey SDK has been authorized for Open Source distribution and development by Rockchip Electronics Ltd. 2014-01-09 04:18 https://connect.miwaplay.com/ 2014-01-09 04:18 MIWA is an Android Open Source Community based Hardware Design Project which is focusing on the emerging market of HDMI Android devices. 2014-01-09 04:20 so an open SDK is a start, right? 2014-01-09 04:20 http://www.rock-chips.com/a/en/index.html 2014-01-09 04:27 nicksydney has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-01-09 04:28 nicksydney has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 04:29 (sdk) depends on what is in it. i've seen closed-source libraries with an "open" API called "open" ... 2014-01-09 04:29 but rockchip is interesting. a source of inexpensive yet potent arms. 2014-01-09 04:32 Allwinner and Rockchip are 2 SoC that are coming out strong from China...Tom Cubie have been releasing few dev boards from both vendors and the linux community around these 2 are not huge but they are making rapid progress 2014-01-09 04:33 hopefully they will open up now...Allwinner has been receptive for the last few months now let's see how Rockchip will follow their step 2014-01-09 04:33 Rockchip has shipped 50 million chips or so I am told 2014-01-09 04:33 rjeffries: more than that i believe 2014-01-09 04:34 wow 2014-01-09 04:34 i don't like they keep on throwing the word 'sdk' it's soo wrong :)...but hey that's my personal opinion :) 2014-01-09 04:34 leveraging china is the way forward I am convinced 2014-01-09 04:34 the dev boards schematics and the whole lot from Tom is open sourced 2014-01-09 04:35 how is his project doing? he is indeed good people 2014-01-09 04:35 but isn't he doing a semi-niche rather high-end system... 2014-01-09 04:36 rockchip dev board (from Tom) --> http://radxa.com/ and AllWinner based --> http://cubieboard.org/ (also from Tom) 2014-01-09 04:36 or maybe I am confused with another guy 2014-01-09 04:36 rjeffries: this is the guy i was referring to https://plus.google.com/117677652709931793641/posts 2014-01-09 04:36 he was ex-AllWinner that start his own 2014-01-09 04:38 I am thinking of another guy who is creting a laptop that incorporates FPGAs 2014-01-09 04:38 that's Bunnie Huang 2014-01-09 04:38 from Bunnie Studiop 2014-01-09 04:38 http://www.bunniestudios.com/ 2014-01-09 04:39 Novena is his creation --> http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=3597 2014-01-09 04:39 yup 2014-01-09 04:39 yes! 2014-01-09 04:39 full open source no binary firmware 2014-01-09 04:39 well i'm sure wpwrak_ can comment on that :) 2014-01-09 04:39 ya 2014-01-09 04:41 But... is it fully Richard Stallman approved? 2014-01-09 04:42 hahah...no idea 2014-01-09 04:46 fire has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 2014-01-09 04:51 ysionneau has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 04:55 ysionnea1 has quit [*.net *.split] 2014-01-09 05:00 so far i'm fine with "off the shelf" laptops. no need for crazy one-of-a-kind type critters. besides, i like the things i have to lug around to be tiny. i kinda doubt that's one of his design goals :) 2014-01-09 05:02 nicksydney: hmm, seems that your intuition was wrong. fedex just scanned the parcel again ... in memphis. things are really slow this time. one day delay at digi-key, one day delay in memphis. 2014-01-09 05:03 wpwrak_: yes his design goals was not tiny but open pretty much everything 2014-01-09 05:03 so it'll hit BUE friday morning. i guess by the evening i'll know whether fedex are up to date with their "gifts" to deserving customs officials ... 2014-01-09 05:03 wpwrak_: well i can't fight mother nature :) 2014-01-09 05:04 wpwrak_: it's the bad weather in US...read that it's like worst in 20yrs 2014-01-09 05:05 bah, that's nothing. we had the hottest week in 100+ years. and did any shipment of advanced electronic components from argentina get delayed because of this ? no, not one ! 2014-01-09 05:06 (of course, a medieval society like the one the unfortunately still current government tries to establish doesn't export electronics, but ...) 2014-01-09 05:08 how hot was it ? over here the hottest it went was close to 50C 2014-01-09 05:08 38-39 C something like 7-8 days in a row 2014-01-09 05:09 (real temperature, not "felt" temperature) 2014-01-09 05:09 that's hot ! 2014-01-09 05:09 it can get hotter here as well, but that's usually for 1-2 days 2014-01-09 05:10 on avg over here summer time is between 35-39C consider as "normal" 2014-01-09 05:11 seems pretty high. i've been to sydney a couple of times and it didn't feel that hot. well, maybe humidity was low. 2014-01-09 05:11 things have changed last few years and it's been super hot nowadays 2014-01-09 05:12 my area is not far from mountain which makes it even worse 2014-01-09 05:12 ah, can't get enough of that global warning, can't you guys ? :) 2014-01-09 05:15 nah...we are into global warmings.. :) 2014-01-09 05:15 hahaha 2014-01-09 05:17 btw did you ordered more parts for anelok though digi ? 2014-01-09 05:17 * nicksydney everyday looked at anelok can't wait to solder it :) 2014-01-09 05:26 rz2k has quit [] 2014-01-09 05:26 yeah, more parts. for the changes i described on the list 2014-01-09 05:29 rjeffries has quit [Quit: Page closed] 2014-01-09 06:23 [commit] Werner Almesberger: components/switch.lib: add SW-SPDT-S4 (on-on switch with four shell pads) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/66f316b 2014-01-09 06:23 [commit] Werner Almesberger: components/cc2543.lib: increase pin spacing by 1.5x (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/247b1de 2014-01-09 06:23 [commit] Werner Almesberger: components/cc2543.lib: fix pin types (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/fe9e22a 2014-01-09 07:42 fire has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 08:09 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 08:40 rodgort` has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2014-01-09 08:41 rodgort has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 08:56 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 08:58 jekhor_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 09:32 lars_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 09:33 lars_ is now known as larsc 2014-01-09 10:00 fire has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-01-09 10:04 lars_ has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 10:04 lars_ has quit [Client Quit] 2014-01-09 10:35 when they say hell freezes over and it did https://twitter.com/abbeylinegold/status/420953415238557696/photo/1 2014-01-09 10:41 neat :) 2014-01-09 10:46 that's not hell though ;) 2014-01-09 10:55 grm, I forgot a word 2014-01-09 10:56 how's those flexible flat wide plastic cables called? you see them in phones for example 2014-01-09 10:57 flexcable 2014-01-09 10:57 ;) 2014-01-09 10:57 ... okay 2014-01-09 10:57 I think 2014-01-09 10:57 FPC :) 2014-01-09 10:57 one of them connects the keyboard to the motherboard in my notebook. the keyboard is dumb (no controller) 2014-01-09 10:57 google image search agrees 2014-01-09 10:58 and occasionally it starts to lose keypresses for a few apparently random keys 2014-01-09 10:58 you get to pick your expansion: Flexible Printed Circuit, Flexible Plastic Cable, ... 2014-01-09 10:58 and you can 'fix' it by pressing on the keyboard. I think this means that one of the scan lines is interrupted somewhere 2014-01-09 10:59 Flat ... 2014-01-09 10:59 ah yes, hairline cracks. don't we love them. 2014-01-09 10:59 those cables tend to easily break 2014-01-09 10:59 on the inside 2014-01-09 11:00 i'm not sure actually whether it's a hairline crack or something else. the end of the cable looks *weird* 2014-01-09 11:00 the wires themselves are made not from copper but from some white metal (Al?) 2014-01-09 11:00 but that's under plastic 2014-01-09 11:00 * wpwrak_ fondly remembers the openmoko debug board, with the FPC they wouldn't even want in hell 2014-01-09 11:00 the exposed parts are completely black. 2014-01-09 11:00 the contacts, I mean. 2014-01-09 11:01 wpwrak_: I think I've used up my stack of openmoko debugboard cables by now 2014-01-09 11:01 larsc: they lastest *that* long ? did they send you a 100 pack ? 2014-01-09 11:01 5 or so 2014-01-09 11:01 now if this was a copper cable I'd gently rub it to get rid of the oxide layer, but it's the first time I see such black coating 2014-01-09 11:01 any ideas? 2014-01-09 11:02 isn't the black "coating" simply the oxide layer? 2014-01-09 11:03 I don't think so, oxide so thick would mean it's exposed to some really aggressive atmosphere and I'm sure it was not 2014-01-09 11:03 that'd corrode everything else as well 2014-01-09 11:03 plus it's uniform so I think it was like that from the factory 2014-01-09 11:06 http://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/KMF13CBInNaJh6aV.medium 2014-01-09 11:06 ifixit has a glimpse of that cable in top right corner 2014-01-09 11:06 blue plastic with black bars on it 2014-01-09 11:07 never seen that before 2014-01-09 11:08 same here 2014-01-09 11:09 * whitequark really doesn't want to shell out $100 more for a keyboard+case assembly 2014-01-09 11:13 grey + black sounds like silver 2014-01-09 11:13 silver? 2014-01-09 11:13 silver oxide is black 2014-01-09 11:14 and it conducts rather well, right 2014-01-09 11:14 yup, similar to copper 2014-01-09 11:15 not sure why you'd prefer is over copper, though 2014-01-09 11:17 well, membrane keyboards always use that silvery metal for contacts, and it appears like the flex cable coming out of the keyboard isn't just the cable 2014-01-09 11:17 it's the continuation of the actual membranes it uses for detecting keypresses 2014-01-09 11:18 so I guess they could cover Al contacts with Ag2O to keep oxide layer conductive... still weird 2014-01-09 11:23 in any case, if an FPC that previously worked fails, it's either a hairline crack in the cable or a connector coming apart. you can sometimes find hairline cracks by sending test signals through the cable and twisting it to see if you can make the crack open. but such a process could of course just create a defect :) 2014-01-09 11:24 if the crack is permanent / exists in a stable configuration, then you can use a continuity tester and a needle to search for the problem spot. 2014-01-09 11:26 if the crack is inside the keyboard itself I'm fucked though 2014-01-09 11:26 it's clamped together 2014-01-09 11:32 well, as they say, bad sex is better than no sex at all ;-) 2014-01-09 11:38 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 12:07 rz2k has quit [] 2014-01-09 12:09 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 12:11 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 12:11 dos1 has quit [Changing host] 2014-01-09 12:11 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 12:12 kristian1aul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 12:13 kristianpaul has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2014-01-09 12:32 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 12:34 kristian1aul has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 2014-01-09 12:34 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 12:34 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 12:48 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2014-01-09 12:48 viric has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2014-01-09 12:48 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 12:51 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 13:17 panda|x201 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 2014-01-09 14:05 lekernel has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2014-01-09 14:17 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 14:22 Luke-Jr has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-01-09 14:23 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 14:23 http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=3597 2014-01-09 14:24 I can also recommend his 30c3 talk 2014-01-09 14:32 Luke-Jr has quit [Excess Flood] 2014-01-09 14:32 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 15:03 Yeah 2014-01-09 15:12 xiangfu has quit [Quit: leaving] 2014-01-09 15:12 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 15:23 panda|x201 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 15:23 pcercuei has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-01-09 15:25 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 15:25 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 266 seconds] 2014-01-09 15:38 habs has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1] 2014-01-09 16:02 Guest88517 has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 16:14 kyak has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-01-09 16:23 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 16:35 wej has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-01-09 16:37 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 16:51 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2014-01-09 16:53 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 17:29 Guest88517 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-01-09 18:31 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 259 seconds] 2014-01-09 18:35 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 18:48 kyak has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 18:48 kyak has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 18:48 kyak has quit [Changing host] 2014-01-09 18:57 kyak has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2014-01-09 19:18 eintopf_ is now known as eintopf 2014-01-09 19:22 and parcel is in viracopos. now it seems there's no flight to buenos aires today ... :( 2014-01-09 19:22 Luke-Jr has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2014-01-09 19:22 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 19:23 wpwrak_: ? 2014-01-09 19:30 i have some parts for anelok on the way from digi-key. tracking their progress 2014-01-09 19:31 of course, the big uncertainty are customs. all the rest is reliable. 2014-01-09 19:31 ah, cool 2014-01-09 19:33 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2014-01-09 19:34 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 19:57 kyak has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 20:38 dman, the next sourcing nightmare 2014-01-09 20:39 oooh parcel, mine left the Swiss frontier this afternoon, tomorrow I can fry sausages in Galden ;-P 2014-01-09 20:40 DocScrutinizer05: 1 2014-01-09 20:40 *! 2014-01-09 20:40 i've yet to order mine 2014-01-09 20:40 though I guess what's good for SMD (inert) is not exactly beneficial for frying sausages 2014-01-09 20:41 why? I generally cook without oil and it's much better that way 2014-01-09 20:41 I might have to dip those sausages into H2O2 before gladenizing them 2014-01-09 20:42 plus galden is what, polyfluorinated polyethylene? stuff sounds inert enough you'd actually live after eating those sausages 2014-01-09 20:42 I guess galdenizing is more like pressure steam cooker, not really anything like frying 2014-01-09 20:42 it's healthier :p 2014-01-09 20:42 though otoh, in a fryer it's covered by oil and also no oxygen around 2014-01-09 20:43 perflourether is used as blood replacement in emergencies 2014-01-09 20:43 seems it has some weird properties 2014-01-09 20:44 http://static.neatorama.com/images/2006-02/clark-liquid-breathing-mouse.jpg 2014-01-09 20:44 :nod: that stuff, yeah 2014-01-09 20:45 I sure don't want to know what that poor mouse feels. continuously feeling like you're drowning and yet neither actually drowning nor losing consciousness 2014-01-09 20:45 actually looks more like a rat 2014-01-09 20:46 http://www.google.de/patents/US5468352 2014-01-09 20:46 A further special property of perfluoropolyethers is their excellent solution power for oxygen and carbon dioxide. They can therefore be used as an oxygen carrier in heart-lung machines or directly as a blood substitute. 2014-01-09 20:47 it's in fact significantly more efficient than actual blood at transferring gasses 2014-01-09 20:48 it's a pity the organism completely excretes the compound after ~48 hours 2014-01-09 20:48 a pity that evolution sucks 2014-01-09 20:48 being able to hold your breath for ~15 minutes is cool 2014-01-09 20:49 inventing such weird stuff like red blood cells and missin out on perflourpolyether 2014-01-09 20:49 lol 2014-01-09 20:49 now that we have the technology we can change that ;) 2014-01-09 20:49 hehe 2014-01-09 20:50 by the way, genetic code kinda looks like a software codebase maintained by a lot of very amateur programmers 2014-01-09 20:50 absolutely dominated by copy&paste 2014-01-09 20:50 and lots of dead code 2014-01-09 20:50 yeah! 2014-01-09 20:50 with a lot of cargo cult, eh? 2014-01-09 20:50 and don't forget about retrotransposons 2014-01-09 20:51 I swear I've seen retrotransposons in software as well 2014-01-09 20:51 I knew it: life sucks, where's the source? 2014-01-09 20:51 heh 2014-01-09 20:52 where's the compiler? 2014-01-09 20:52 why, we know about both cp and cc 2014-01-09 20:52 ooh, pop pop pop --- could somebody please find a few anx7805 for me? 2014-01-09 20:52 incl datasheet 2014-01-09 20:52 there are certain genes which do nothing but increase the likelyhood that they are choosen over there allele when reproducing 2014-01-09 20:52 _not_ that 3 pages pamphlet 2014-01-09 20:53 s/there/their/ 2014-01-09 20:53 larsc meant: "their are certain genes which do nothing but increase the likelyhood that they are choosen over their allele when reproducing" 2014-01-09 20:53 larsc: I take it you like Dawkins? :] 2014-01-09 20:53 I read his book 2014-01-09 20:53 a few == ~1000 maybe 2014-01-09 20:54 I didn't actually, but the reference was obvious enough... 2014-01-09 20:54 for the datasheet, one set is enough 2014-01-09 20:54 DocScrutinizer05: no, I'd send you a tar with a thousand pdfs, of course 2014-01-09 20:55 larsc: i wouldn;t 2014-01-09 20:55 not gzipped, that would be cheating 2014-01-09 20:55 but so quick about saying something in the DNA does "nothing". people have been wrong about that quite a number of times by now ;-) 2014-01-09 20:55 * DocScrutinizer05 always thought that attack should rrather get run against manufacturers that advertise components and then refuse to sell them 2014-01-09 20:56 wpwrak_: indeed 2014-01-09 20:56 buzzword epigenetics 2014-01-09 20:56 wpwrak_: no, but there is something called junk DNA 2014-01-09 20:56 which seems to do nothing 2014-01-09 20:57 there's stuff like ALU repeats. the only thing they (used to) do is to reinsert themselves into the DNA 2014-01-09 20:57 but as it turns out some of this junk DNA increases the likelyhood of its own reproduction 2014-01-09 20:57 which is because there's such a lot of them 2014-01-09 20:57 it's somewhat like a virus, except it only reproduces within a single cell 2014-01-09 20:58 iirc about 60% of your genome consists of retrotransposons (of which ALU is one kind) 2014-01-09 20:59 40 2014-01-09 20:59 says the wikipedia page 2014-01-09 21:00 42 actually 2014-01-09 21:00 yeah 2014-01-09 21:00 I still bet kicking all of them out would cause the complete system fail epically 2014-01-09 21:00 fortunately that's easy to check 2014-01-09 21:00 well, relatively :p 2014-01-09 21:00 actually let me check pubmed, I swear someone thought of it already 2014-01-09 21:01 larsc: still, that doesn't say that it does nothing. it just means that it's "cheating" a bit at evolution 2014-01-09 21:01 wpwrak_: well you never know if it does nothing 2014-01-09 21:01 wpwrak_: but evolution doesn't have a direction. therefore you cannot cheat on it by definition 2014-01-09 21:01 who knows, maybe they serve as shock absorbers for ionizing rays impacting the molecule, or whatever 2014-01-09 21:02 wpwrak_: lets say it like this, nobody has observed it doing anything 2014-01-09 21:02 DocScrutinizer05: this is actually one hypothesis. they just increase the volume of DNA. 2014-01-09 21:02 hah, I'm good, no?= 2014-01-09 21:02 :p 2014-01-09 21:02 whitequark: well, i'd call "increasing the chance of reproduction without any external interaction" as sort of cheating :) 2014-01-09 21:03 whitequark: of course, it's just basically a second-order effect of the same evolutionary mechanisms 2014-01-09 21:03 larsc: do you think there's life anywhere in the universe outside of earth ? if yes, have you observed it ? ;-) 2014-01-09 21:03 it's really not a directional process. it's not designed to select for fitness, it just happens to, in most cases 2014-01-09 21:04 the organism is just a vehicle for the gene 2014-01-09 21:04 to drop more dawkins 2014-01-09 21:05 no, the organism is just a vehicle for my crazy mind 2014-01-09 21:05 hmpf, I can't seem to find the right keywords for pubmed 2014-01-09 21:05 quite a lot of science is of the sort that you watch something very very complex and your experiment setup extracts a very narrow bit of information while being totally oblivious to anything else happening, no matter the magnitude 2014-01-09 21:05 eventuylly I hope to find a better one ;-P 2014-01-09 21:05 (vehicle, that is) 2014-01-09 21:05 I'd ask my biologist friends 2014-01-09 21:05 DocScrutinizer05: the thought of being able to copy a mind creeps me out 2014-01-09 21:05 whitequark: iirc venter removed stuff from bacteria and see if it still works 2014-01-09 21:06 $ cp DocScrutinizer05 DocScrutinizer06 2014-01-09 21:06 DocScrutinizer05 is now known as DocScrutinizer06 2014-01-09 21:06 so, anything new? 2014-01-09 21:06 now if DocScrutinizer06 sleeps with your wife, is that cheating? 2014-01-09 21:06 so not seeing something do something may simply mean that you haven't looked for specifically that item to do exactly that specific thing under the right circumstances and for the right number of times 2014-01-09 21:07 wpwrak_: exactly 2014-01-09 21:07 wpwrak_: it's a rather philosophical view. by the same logic, we don't actually know whether laws of physics work, we just have a degree of certainty 2014-01-09 21:07 every once in a while you read in some biochemical research that they recently noticed something that looks utterly trivial and you ask yourself "how could they possibly not have seen this before" ? 2014-01-09 21:07 and there's nothing that prevents gravity from stopping working *right now* 2014-01-09 21:07 whitequark: exactly my though 2014-01-09 21:07 philosophically that is 2014-01-09 21:07 doesn't mean those laws are useless :p 2014-01-09 21:08 whitequark: or how do you know that gravity works five meters from where you are standing? 2014-01-09 21:08 whitequark: incorrect, since those laws are beased on observing effects, not the absense of any effect 2014-01-09 21:08 DocScrutinizer06: some of them are based on absence of any effect 2014-01-09 21:08 rarely ever 2014-01-09 21:08 DocScrutinizer06 is now known as DocScrutinizer05 2014-01-09 21:08 for example stability of particles. proton, various nuclei, etc 2014-01-09 21:09 protons are not stable 2014-01-09 21:09 decay of proton has never been observed 2014-01-09 21:09 it's always a number game, does the math match the observations 2014-01-09 21:09 well, it takes a while 2014-01-09 21:09 how do you know it's not stable? 2014-01-09 21:09 some 10^30 years or such 2014-01-09 21:09 he knows ;) 2014-01-09 21:09 whitequark: i think the "degree of certainty" is exactly what we have even in physics. consider newton vs. einstein. consider "dark matter", "dark energy". 2014-01-09 21:09 that's the *lower* limit based on current observations 2014-01-09 21:10 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_decay 2014-01-09 21:10 exactly 2014-01-09 21:11 standard model says proton doesn't decay. we never seen it either. so it's a hypothesis 2014-01-09 21:12 similar case: bismuth. for a long time it was thought that bismuth is stable. afaik we still haven't observe bismuth to decay yet, but it's now considered radioactive, with an incredibly long half-life 2014-01-09 21:12 based on some wacky quantum mechanical preductions 2014-01-09 21:12 6.6×10^33 to 1.29×10^34 years ;-P 2014-01-09 21:12 hm? 2014-01-09 21:13 proton half life 2014-01-09 21:13 that's the range for the lower limit 2014-01-09 21:13 not lower and upper limit 2014-01-09 21:13 are you even reading same article as me? :p 2014-01-09 21:13 "To date, all attempts to observe these events have failed. Recent experiments at the Super-Kamiokande water Cherenkov radiation detector in Japan gave lower limits for proton half-life, at 90% confidence level, of 6.6×1033 years via antimuon decay and 8.2×1033 years via positron decay.[3] Newer, preliminary results estimate a half-life of no less than 1.29×1034 years via positron decay.[4]" 2014-01-09 21:13 *no less* 2014-01-09 21:14 oops, ok 2014-01-09 21:15 this one dot in the exponent, meh! 2014-01-09 21:15 anyway, I'm afraid it will take even longer to source anx7805 2014-01-09 21:15 hahaha 2014-01-09 21:16 hurry, before the protons in the chips decay ;-) 2014-01-09 21:18 I recall reading a physics encyclopedia as a child (yeah, like you'd read a book... from start to finish) and it talked about LEP and LHC being the bright future projects 2014-01-09 21:18 btw 286 devices 2014-01-09 21:19 to think they're completed now. boggles mind 2014-01-09 21:19 DocScrutinizer05: congrats! 2014-01-09 21:20 whitequark: I did worse: read brockhaus 2014-01-09 21:20 nights long 2014-01-09 21:20 boring! 2014-01-09 21:20 with 9 years old it wasn't 2014-01-09 21:20 DocScrutinizer05: congratulations. your civilization has discovered "protected mode" now ;-) 2014-01-09 21:21 * wpwrak_ suddenly feels unexpectedly sane :) 2014-01-09 21:21 err, you lost me 2014-01-09 21:21 i think the intel 286 introduced "protected mode" 2014-01-09 21:21 and i made a pun of how you "discover" things in games like civilization 2014-01-09 21:22 DocScrutinizer05: hmm, familiar name 2014-01-09 21:22 err, I think when I did that, germanium transistors were the newest shit 2014-01-09 21:22 ah right, my grandmother used it all the time 2014-01-09 21:23 whitequark: the wikipedia of the old days ;) 2014-01-09 21:23 morning lads 2014-01-09 21:25 "When I was a child I'd read the Internet (yeah, like you'd read a book... from start to finish)" ;) 2014-01-09 21:25 it been in the left far end corner of my data crystal 2014-01-09 21:26 next to TV (whatever that means) 2014-01-09 21:29 starting at 0.0.0.0, all the way to 255.255.255.255 ;-) 2014-01-09 21:29 luckily, they didn't have ipv6 back then :) 2014-01-09 21:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sO79mDoL-pY 100W USB power delivery 2014-01-09 21:38 arielenter has quit [Read error: No route to host] 2014-01-09 21:39 qi-bot has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2014-01-09 21:39 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2014-01-09 21:46 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2014-01-09 22:01 DocScrutinizer05: a very newbies question about neo900 ... in terms of the radio (GSM) the code is not open sourced ? it's from vendor right ? 2014-01-09 22:02 * nicksydney learning the difference which part can be open sourced which part cannot :) 2014-01-09 22:02 nicksydney: the radio firmware is closed-source of course. I think it's not legally possible to open-source it even if you wanted 2014-01-09 22:03 but, what happens in vegas^Wradio stays in radio, and the neo900 component definitely can be OSS 2014-01-09 22:03 whitequark: huh ? vegas ? 2014-01-09 22:04 that was a joke 2014-01-09 22:04 whitequark: ahh sorry :) 2014-01-09 22:05 i was reading DocScrutinizer05 post and this post http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1369348&postcount=5 catch my eye as i have the similar question yesterday and wpwrak_ helped me to understand that ... that post mentioned "It's as open and free as you can get - only 3D acceleration needs binary blob" ... now just need to find the code in the kernel that "talk" to this blob to understand how the interaction works. 2014-01-09 22:05 ..search through nvidia site but lots and lots of info :) 2014-01-09 22:06 nicksydney: anything running on main CPU can be free 2014-01-09 22:06 nicksydney: anything running on modem's internal CPU cannot 2014-01-09 22:06 uhh...it mentioned that it can work without 3D acceleration so there is a software library that can be used ? 2014-01-09 22:06 long story short :) 2014-01-09 22:06 ah, yeah, 3d accel is not free 2014-01-09 22:07 but it's not necessary anyway 2014-01-09 22:07 the device works without it 2014-01-09 22:07 there's ongoing RE projects for all major accelerators 2014-01-09 22:07 so what it means is that inside the kernel (or one of the library) there is a fallback mechanism to run graphics without 3D acceleration from the vendor is this right ? 2014-01-09 22:08 yup, and there's one for PowerVR as well, but it's kinda stalled... 2014-01-09 22:08 ugh, powervr. such a horrendous pile of crap 2014-01-09 22:08 dos1: can you point me to a link that i can read up on please 2014-01-09 22:08 nicksydney: nah, if you don't want 3D accel, you just don't install nor use it 2014-01-09 22:08 it's like 3d accel on nvidia gpu before nouveau 2014-01-09 22:10 framebuffer, 2d accel etc. is all there even in upstream kernel 2014-01-09 22:10 is OpenGL the "library" that linux app mostly use ? or am i thinking the wrong way ? 2014-01-09 22:10 and if you want 3d, then you install blob from vendor 2014-01-09 22:10 so my thinking is linux app --> opengl --> binary blob 2014-01-09 22:10 it's OpenGL ES 2014-01-09 22:11 opengl is blob 2014-01-09 22:11 OpenGL is blob but OpenGL ES not ? 2014-01-09 22:11 opengl es is 2014-01-09 22:12 on desktops, regular opengl works in the same way 2014-01-09 22:12 vendors provide their opengl/opengl es implementations for their hardware as blobs 2014-01-09 22:12 you have libGL.so/libGLES.so provided by vendors 2014-01-09 22:12 opengl (es) itself is an api 2014-01-09 22:12 and usually there's an open-source kernel component 2014-01-09 22:12 so for binary blob it's using OpenGL ES but without binary blob it's using 2D accel ... right ? 2014-01-09 22:13 it's using framebuffer. it's not necessarily accelerated 2014-01-09 22:13 nicksydney: if you're launching opengl application without binary blob, it fallbacks to standard mesa software rasterizer 2014-01-09 22:13 and when you're not launching any 3D stuff, then you usually don't care about opengl at all 2014-01-09 22:14 opengl is used to great extent on android to make smooth 2D effects. scrolling and such. 2014-01-09 22:14 (it's a bit simplified, as there are various techniques to accelerate 2d graphics using opengl) 2014-01-09 22:15 whitequark: (opengl is used to great extent on android to make smooth 2D effects.) --> this is what always gets me all this while i thought that because it is using OpenGL it is doing 3D ...but looks like i was wrong *IT IS* doing 2D but accelerated using opengl 2014-01-09 22:16 dos1: (and when you're not launching any 3D stuff) most UI interfaces (windowing, fonts, etc) are 2D right ? 2014-01-09 22:16 lekernel has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2014-01-09 22:16 you can use opengl to accelerate 2D or 3D. you can also accelerate 2D without opengl. you can also have a regular non-accelerated framebuffer (just an array of pixels). 2014-01-09 22:17 what is available on your platform... depends 2014-01-09 22:17 nicksydney: again it depends. android would want to use GL for UI. 2014-01-09 22:18 nicksydney: 3d looks 2d if you use the right projection 2014-01-09 22:18 nicksydney: sure. some window managers use opengl for fancy compositing effects 2014-01-09 22:18 so without it you probably won't launch gnome shell or something like that which doesn't have proper fallback 2014-01-09 22:18 it's not just that. you can render fonts from textures, scroll widgets, and so on 2014-01-09 22:18 it's generally a good idea *if you have GL* 2014-01-09 22:18 kwin however works great with compositing disabled 2014-01-09 22:19 you'd probably not want to run kwin on neo900 :] 2014-01-09 22:19 why not? :) I've seen it running on gta01 :D 2014-01-09 22:20 i didn't say 'not be able' i said 'not want' 2014-01-09 22:20 it depends on what you want to achieve ;) 2014-01-09 22:20 some of us are trying to use phones as phones, not undersized and overpriced PCs 2014-01-09 22:21 anyway, there are all those fancy plasma active things 2014-01-09 22:22 which may be pretty usable on neo900 2014-01-09 22:22 whitequark: (and usually there's an open-source kernel component) .. do you know of any code in the upstream kernel that i can take a look for this part ? 2014-01-09 22:22 nicksydney: such components generally don't go upstream afaik 2014-01-09 22:23 upstream? no idea. i think samsung has successfully upstreamed something. 2014-01-09 22:23 the code is usually horrendous 2014-01-09 22:23 those are mostly just thin-wrappers to make driver GPL compliant and nothing more 2014-01-09 22:24 dos1: so it's just a wrapper that calls the functions in the blob 2014-01-09 22:24 usually, yes 2014-01-09 22:24 what's exactly there of course depends on particular vendor 2014-01-09 22:24 whitequark: if i have to dig through upstream which directory is the best bet i could find it ? 2014-01-09 22:24 nicksydney: try to look it up in kconfig 2014-01-09 22:25 dos1: yeah i'm just curious want to look at the code and piece things together for my sanity sake :) 2014-01-09 22:25 then it's usually straightforward, and you can grep 2014-01-09 22:25 whitequark: in kconfig any particular word i look for ? 2014-01-09 22:26 the video section 2014-01-09 22:26 nicksydney: you can see what nvidia does with their drivers for x86 example, or see some n900 kernel for powervr driver as arm example 2014-01-09 22:27 dos1: n900 = Neo900 ? 2014-01-09 22:27 Nokia N900 2014-01-09 22:27 whitequark: gotcha..will look it up 2014-01-09 22:27 dos1: n900 kernel available ? any link you know 2014-01-09 22:27 on neo900 it will look the same or similar if you install 3D blob 2014-01-09 22:28 nicksydney: first url I found: https://gitorious.org/linux-n900/linux-n900/source/fbe8f44503e2f158bf67c0a5950f56003aef9a53: 2014-01-09 22:28 there should be more, as there are various kernels for maemo, meego etc. 2014-01-09 22:29 dos1: thanks 2014-01-09 22:29 there's also 3.x port in works done by community 2014-01-09 23:08 wpwrak_: saw this baby http://milkymist.org/3/ has got your signature on it too :) 2014-01-09 23:36 mixxeo ? only very little 2014-01-09 23:44 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2014-01-09 23:46 wej has joined #qi-hardware