2014-01-08 00:01 <DocScrutinizer05> funny lil thing
2014-01-08 00:01 <DocScrutinizer05> intel quark 2core, tzz
2014-01-08 00:02 <DocScrutinizer05> a pity it has no battery and e-ink
2014-01-08 00:02 <DocScrutinizer05> and a few sensor pads for buttons
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2014-01-08 00:05 <wpwrak_> bah, SD. that's so yesteryear. real hackers use microSD ;-)
2014-01-08 00:10 <kristian1aul> lol
2014-01-08 00:11 <kristian1aul> yeah
2014-01-08 00:11 <kristian1aul> you hacked yours today? :)
2014-01-08 00:12 <wpwrak_> heh, actually not. but i drew another footprint.
2014-01-08 00:13 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: modules/sw-spdt-smt.fpd: add SW-CUS12B (for Copal CUS-12B and C&K PCM12SMTR) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/fc2d104
2014-01-08 00:15 <kristian1aul> ahm
2014-01-08 00:16 <kristian1aul> tough you were to replace your tiny boards cpu with a memory card and some bitbanged IO
2014-01-08 00:16 <wpwrak_> yeah, especially for the RF ;-)
2014-01-08 00:17 <kristian1aul> lol
2014-01-08 00:17 <nicksydney_> jsut realized the bottom part of the micro USB that I'm using need to be filed as there is  a plastic mounting and i don't have a drill
2014-01-08 00:17 * nicksydney_ will use a nail filing to file the plastic thingy of the USB
2014-01-08 00:17 <nicksydney_> wpwrak_: thought real hacker use telephaty to store information not microSD :)
2014-01-08 00:18 <kristian1aul> :wat:
2014-01-08 00:18 <wpwrak_> finally a switch i don't have to hate quite so much. page 348 of http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/kicad-libs-modules.pdf
2014-01-08 00:19 <kristian1aul> dont youu like push buttons?
2014-01-08 00:19 <kristian1aul> erghh switches
2014-01-08 00:20 <wpwrak_> that's a slide switch
2014-01-08 00:20 <wpwrak_> push buttons with momentary contact tend to be nicer
2014-01-08 00:21 <kristian1aul> wow
2014-01-08 00:21 <wpwrak_> hmm, fedex thinks my latest digi-key goodies will take a week to make it to BUE :-(
2014-01-08 00:22 <kristian1aul> since when you print that sheets, looks nice (because the qi at the top page)
2014-01-08 00:23 <wpwrak_> hmm ?
2014-01-08 00:23 <kristian1aul> the pdf link above
2014-01-08 00:23 <kristian1aul> well, considering the weather forecast... Tought fedex is always good to break its own deliver times
2014-01-08 00:26 <wpwrak_> yeah, should have included some liquids. see if they arrive as ice ;-)
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2014-01-08 00:52 <DocScrutinizer05> dang, I start to wonder what's the exact definition of "ice"
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2014-01-08 00:53 <DocScrutinizer05> I guess that's a good sign that I need a break
2014-01-08 00:55 <wpwrak_> ;-))
2014-01-08 00:55 <wpwrak_> the exact definition and with what sort of tolerances it comes :)
2014-01-08 00:56 <DocScrutinizer05> maybe "solid crystal aggregate state of liquids that are liquid at room temperature"
2014-01-08 00:57 <DocScrutinizer05> though, what's dry ice (frozen CO2) then?
2014-01-08 00:58 <DocScrutinizer05> definitely time for a break
2014-01-08 00:59 <DocScrutinizer05> 16h are enough
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2014-01-08 01:30 <nicksydney> DocScrutinizer05: 16 is such a weird number make that 18h and i'm sold with that number :)
2014-01-08 01:31 <nicksydney> LCA2014 is live streaming if anyoneis interested to watch http://timvideos.us/lcatv
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2014-01-08 02:47 <nicksydney> wpwrak_: the yellow paper was a major success for toner transfer
2014-01-08 02:50 <nicksydney> http://ctrlv.in/280487
2014-01-08 02:51 <nicksydney> http://ctrlv.in/280488
2014-01-08 02:52 <nicksydney> http://ctrlv.in/280489
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2014-01-08 10:05 <wpwrak_> (yellow paper) looks great !
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2014-01-08 12:36 <nicksydney> i was really blown away when i peel off the paper..didn't expect it was going to be soo damn good :)
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2014-01-08 12:45 <nicksydney> wpwrak_: done the LED wheel...and tinning the track helps a lot in soldering...one thing i notice when soldering the GND the solder does not stick well looks like the heat is "absorbed" by the surrounding copper ?
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2014-01-08 12:52 <nicksydney> LED wheel ...  (led wheel after soldering) http://ctrlv.in/280619 and http://ctrlv.in/280621.... (tinning pic) http://ctrlv.in/280622
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2014-01-08 12:57 <nicksydney> those LED SMD really pack some punch really bright
2014-01-08 13:12 <wpwrak_> nicksydney: ah yes, large ground areas do that :) you can a) use more heat, b) heat the PCB from the bottom, c) break down the ground areas to be a bit less conductive.
2014-01-08 13:13 <wpwrak_> a) increases the risk of damaging traces. b) is usually messy. the feasibility of c) depends a bit on the situation
2014-01-08 13:14 <wpwrak_> (leds) pretty. now christmas can come ;-)
2014-01-08 13:14 <nicksydney> wpwrak_: christmas comes late .. better late than never i suppose :)
2014-01-08 13:14 <nicksydney> i think i will work off with braking the ground into different section
2014-01-08 13:16 <nicksydney> having the tinned track make it easy to solder the component..all i have to do is just place the component in its position and heat up the tinned solder and the component straight way hooked
2014-01-08 13:16 <nicksydney> make it very easy
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2014-01-08 13:28 <nicksydney> http://www.ozobot.com/ .. cute but not open source ...hmm
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2014-01-08 13:31 <wpwrak_> (solder) you'll want to have a little bit of solder on the tip of the iron, already for heat transfer. but yes, you need almost nothing.
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2014-01-08 13:51 <DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak_: you recall that nasty dispute between me and Andy regarding OVP on USB? See http://www.oppoforums.com/attachments/removed_msm8960_chipset_training__introduction_and_chipset_overview-pdf.86/ p.17
2014-01-08 13:52 <DocScrutinizer05> >>Over-voltage protection USB:  Fully integrated up to +28 V (integrated OVP FET)<<
2014-01-08 13:53 <DocScrutinizer05> I think Andy's approach of "show me a charger that kills the device and we will consider improving our OVP beyond the 5.5V we got" is not sustainable
2014-01-08 13:55 <DocScrutinizer05> even less is the "despite ABS MAX is 5.5V, I haven't seen a device go south on even 9V"
2014-01-08 13:56 <wpwrak_> 28 V .. nice
2014-01-08 13:58 <DocScrutinizer05> btw you *might* want to keep a local copy of this pdf, it seems a pretty rare leak of otherwise highly classified Qualcom docs
2014-01-08 13:59 <DocScrutinizer05> the qualcom would be a really nice chip, if it wasn't for this insane NDA stuff and the fact that modem shares RAM with APE
2014-01-08 14:01 <DocScrutinizer05> for the average hw manuf or OEM as well as for NSA it at least doesn't matter, for NSA etc it even is the best design they could hope for ;-)
2014-01-08 14:01 <DocScrutinizer05> for free hardware it is unbearable
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2014-01-08 14:11 <nicksydney> thought 0603 is already small for me to solder...now i'm seeing 0402 ..i'll be damned ..that thing is TINY !
2014-01-08 14:12 <wpwrak_> ;-)
2014-01-08 14:12 <wpwrak_> 0402 is just the right size. that is, unless you need to run traces under the chip. that you can't do with 0402.
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2014-01-08 14:15 <nicksydney> spoke too soon....there are more
2014-01-08 14:15 <nicksydney> 01005 (0402 metric): 0.4 mm × 0.2 mm (0.016 in × 0.0079 in). Typical power rating for resistors = 0.031 watt[8]
2014-01-08 14:15 <nicksydney> 0201 (0603 metric): 0.6 mm × 0.3 mm (0.024 in × 0.012 in). Typical power rating for resistors = 0.05 watt[8]
2014-01-08 14:15 <nicksydney> 0201 and 01005
2014-01-08 14:15 <nicksydney> 0.4mm .... speckle :)
2014-01-08 14:16 <wpwrak_> yeah, but these are on the nasty end of the range. and they don't give much of a benefit since you need to have some keep-out area around them anyway.
2014-01-08 14:16 <wpwrak_> and the keep-out area doesn't shrink. it's basically the size of your soldering iron's tip.
2014-01-08 14:17 <wpwrak_> if you go below that, you must use reflow soldering and rework gets complicated
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2014-01-08 14:19 <nicksydney> i can imagine how complicated that will be... :) ... phones must be using those small packages i assume
2014-01-08 14:20 * nicksydney looking around on eBay to buy more resistors and LEDs :)
2014-01-08 14:42 <DocScrutinizer05> btw here's another one of those rare docs: http://d-h.st/xJ9
2014-01-08 14:45 <DocScrutinizer05> nicksydney: 0201 are kinda standard on phones nowadays, yes
2014-01-08 14:46 <nicksydney> DocScrutinizer05: wow ! don't want to mess around with that kind of small package ... it's very tiny..i can go blind soldering it :)
2014-01-08 14:46 <DocScrutinizer05> you can't realistically solder that stuff by hand
2014-01-08 14:46 <DocScrutinizer05> 0402 is nasty for soldering
2014-01-08 14:47 <DocScrutinizer05> particularly when your eyes are 50+ years old
2014-01-08 14:48 <DocScrutinizer05> I heard 0201 start dissolving completely in high humidity environments ;-P
2014-01-08 14:48 <nicksydney> which means phone stop working then  :)
2014-01-08 14:49 <DocScrutinizer05> even a 0402 can vanish into a parallel dimension when you drop it on your workbench during soldering. It never again shows up, no matter how long you search for it
2014-01-08 14:50 <DocScrutinizer05> 0201 will simply dive into the solder on your soldering iron tip and you can't get them out of the solder anymore ;-P
2014-01-08 14:50 <nicksydney> don't want to imagine it falls on your food and you accidentally ingest it
2014-01-08 14:51 <larsc> if you are not careful you might inhale them ;)
2014-01-08 14:51 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, nano particles are considered a potential health hazard X-P
2014-01-08 14:52 * DocScrutinizer05 eagerly waits for the cold solder, some glue that has very low electrical resistivity and cures during a few minutes or even by gently heating or exposing it to UV
2014-01-08 14:52 <wpwrak_> and 01005 is where homeopathy finally meets engineering
2014-01-08 14:53 <DocScrutinizer05> http://d-h.st/xJ9: R2475 0[Ohm] 5% 0.050W   X-P
2014-01-08 14:54 <DocScrutinizer05> dunno why I recalled this when you say homeopathy
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2014-01-08 14:54 <wpwrak_> some warez download that wants my cell phone number ? i don't think so :)
2014-01-08 14:54 <DocScrutinizer05> http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1404670#post1404670
2014-01-08 14:55 <DocScrutinizer05> uh?
2014-01-08 14:55 <DocScrutinizer05> I didn't need to give any phone number
2014-01-08 14:56 <larsc> wpwrak_: the lower download button
2014-01-08 14:56 <larsc> the gray one
2014-01-08 14:56 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, prolly. There are 2
2014-01-08 14:57 <DocScrutinizer05> and tell me, what's 0Ohm +/- 5% ?
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2014-01-08 14:58 <DocScrutinizer05> 0 * 1.05 ?
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2014-01-08 14:58 <DocScrutinizer05> 0 * 0.95 ?
2014-01-08 14:58 <wpwrak_> don't have resistors also some small parasitic inductance ? then you could still reach those 50 mW :)
2014-01-08 14:59 <wpwrak_> though you're more likely to hit the voltage limit
2014-01-08 14:59 <DocScrutinizer05> sure in real life you can, but not based on the parameters specified in schematics
2014-01-08 15:00 <DocScrutinizer05> those parameters are mere BS
2014-01-08 15:01 <DocScrutinizer05> if they had written "<0.001Ohm. >1A" that would be parameters everybody can find a matching "resistor" for
2014-01-08 15:02 <DocScrutinizer05> but "0[Ohm] 5% 0.050W" is a very funny joke
2014-01-08 15:04 <DocScrutinizer05> ooh, you might be interested in a nice mail from Nikolaus, loosely related to hw-hacking: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1404804#post1404804
2014-01-08 15:07 <DocScrutinizer05> dang! is there smoke escaping from display in http://maemo.cloud-7.de/Neo900/media/pic+vid/DSC01833.jpeg ?
2014-01-08 15:09 <larsc> steering thrusters
2014-01-08 15:09 <DocScrutinizer05> hehehe
2014-01-08 15:10 <DocScrutinizer05> larsc: are you available for a bit of kernel/driver adaption work?
2014-01-08 15:11 <larsc> maybe
2014-01-08 15:11 <larsc> what do you need
2014-01-08 15:11 <DocScrutinizer05> e.g. I wonder if the crt12 touchscreen controller already has decent drivers
2014-01-08 15:12 <larsc> do you know what is in there?
2014-01-08 15:13 <DocScrutinizer05> http://projects.goldelico.com/p/neo900/issues/527/
2014-01-08 15:16 <larsc> freescale seems to have a driver, but it doesn't seem to use the input framework
2014-01-08 15:16 <larsc> so it's rubish
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2014-01-08 15:19 <larsc> are you already using the chip or do you think about using it?
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2014-01-08 15:43 <DocScrutinizer05> i'm decided to use that chip
2014-01-08 15:43 <DocScrutinizer05> we already announced it as a property for Neo900
2014-01-08 15:44 <DocScrutinizer05> pinch/rotate 2-touch gesture recognition
2014-01-08 15:45 <DocScrutinizer05> if you need, we can pay for a eval board available for that chip
2014-01-08 15:46 <DocScrutinizer05> though I'd prefer you to do more than just crtouch10 and we ship one of the Neo900 protos to you ;-)
2014-01-08 15:47 <larsc> i can pick one up from Dr. Nics lab
2014-01-08 15:47 <larsc> it's not that far away
2014-01-08 15:47 <DocScrutinizer05> good!
2014-01-08 15:47 <DocScrutinizer05> :-)
2014-01-08 15:48 <DocScrutinizer05> we need to ship at least a BSP on debian basis with the devices
2014-01-08 15:49 <DocScrutinizer05> such BSP of course needs a working driver for the touch controller, among other stuff
2014-01-08 15:50 <DocScrutinizer05> and we pretty much would like to evaluate the hw before we start MP, as well. To avoid issues like jitter etc
2014-01-08 15:50 <DocScrutinizer05> might need some LPF on the 4-wire, or sth
2014-01-08 15:51 <DocScrutinizer05> only proto eval will tell
2014-01-08 15:55 <larsc> I have no idea about how to create a debian SDK
2014-01-08 15:59 <DocScrutinizer05> err, that's no witchcraft. Just use a bare bones debian system and provide all the drivers for the particular hardware on the device on top of it
2014-01-08 16:00 <DocScrutinizer05> then *maybe* add some *very* basic test UIs for stuff like the crtouch10, that maybe shows the raw output from /dev/ts or whatever
2014-01-08 16:01 <DocScrutinizer05> just a comprehensive set of device drivers and as icing on top some testframe that allows to see the hardware operate
2014-01-08 16:04 <DocScrutinizer05> for modem that would be an AT minicom-alike interface to control the critter (confort version: do some "macro" to automatically execute a sequence of predefined AT commands to configure the modem according to what we recommend, sth like (8)chat)
2014-01-08 16:04 <DocScrutinizer05> plus an audio driver that pipes audio e.g. to and from the wired headset
2014-01-08 16:05 <DocScrutinizer05> plus a network device that you can ping or whatever you like to do with it, for the GPRS
2014-01-08 16:07 <DocScrutinizer05> we will need some additional tools and stuff, to demonstarte how to do the tight modem monitoring - for TX activity, power-up state, GPS antenna enabled, etc. This boils down to monitoring a few GPIO
2014-01-08 16:07 <larsc> right
2014-01-08 16:09 <DocScrutinizer05> similar driver+testframe combos will be needed e.g. for the FMRX, FMTX, of course the WLAN/BT (all 4 prolly one module TiWi5)... etc pp
2014-01-08 16:10 <DocScrutinizer05> for WLAN the testframe is iwconfig and the driver is wl12xx.ko I'd guess
2014-01-08 16:13 <DocScrutinizer05> when for a certain subsystem it's hard to write a testframe but there's already a decent app in e.g. SHR existing, and that app allows to test the hardware in a non-obscure way, then even better
2014-01-08 16:14 <DocScrutinizer05> e.g for crtouch10 we won't need a silly testframe like /usr/bin/gnu/od -An -tx1 -w16 /dev/input/ts when there's a drawing app already, that even makes use of pinch/rotate
2014-01-08 16:16 <DocScrutinizer05> see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bv3X5y-ajtc for a typical testframe app for multitouch
2014-01-08 16:17 <DocScrutinizer05> admittedly a very highly sophisticated one, since the stantum guys wanted to sell their stuff and thus needed something catchy, with a high eyecandy gactor
2014-01-08 16:17 <DocScrutinizer05> factor even
2014-01-08 16:18 <DocScrutinizer05> doesn't matter when the thing has framebuffer instead of X11
2014-01-08 16:18 <DocScrutinizer05> you get the picture
2014-01-08 16:19 <DocScrutinizer05> all it needs is a way to start it (via remote shell, or by 27 times pressing the aux button) and it demonstrates the hw capabilities and actual working hardware
2014-01-08 16:21 <DocScrutinizer05> when the drivers are already fit for "upstream" then all the better, but that's not mandatory
2014-01-08 16:22 <DocScrutinizer05> as long as somebody savvy can create upstream-compliant drivers based on what the BSP demonstrates
2014-01-08 16:22 <DocScrutinizer05> in that regard what freescale provided are probably typical low quality BSP driver implementations
2014-01-08 16:22 <larsc> that sounds like a list of things that could keep a couple of people busy for a couple of months
2014-01-08 16:23 <DocScrutinizer05> I don't think it's that much
2014-01-08 16:24 <DocScrutinizer05> modem audio and audio in general is a nasty beast
2014-01-08 16:24 <DocScrutinizer05> the rest looks pretty manageable
2014-01-08 16:24 <larsc> we'll see
2014-01-08 16:24 <DocScrutinizer05> for 95% of the subsystems there already exist complete linux driver implementations
2014-01-08 16:25 <DocScrutinizer05> the TiWi5 for example is based on the tw1273 which is used in maemo Harmatten
2014-01-08 16:25 <larsc> tell me when you have a prototype ready and I'll see what I can do
2014-01-08 16:25 <DocScrutinizer05> sure
2014-01-08 16:25 <DocScrutinizer05> :-)
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2014-01-08 16:30 <DocScrutinizer05> btw when you'd be interested to majke some real money, I have a "daughter project" in mind, which is sth like "port maemo fremantle and make it security hardened" means set up a few existing security enhancements on top of it, like cryptfs on rootfs, VPN, dunno what else we'd need. Then we would sell this distro with the device and you could tell what you want to ask for it from customers. I.E. we offer devices with "fremantle
2014-01-08 16:30 <DocScrutinizer05> security anti-NSA edition" preinstalled and ask a 25 or 50 EUR for the software installation, which goes mostly to you
2014-01-08 16:33 <DocScrutinizer05> I have prospects for a few 1000 devices like that, just here in Germany. Centralized via one "IT manager"
2014-01-08 16:34 <DocScrutinizer05> these are on top of our current geek customers
2014-01-08 16:35 <DocScrutinizer05> such thing could become amazingly huge
2014-01-08 16:36 <DocScrutinizer05> only downside: _we_ (as in: Neo900 group) can't finance nor drive such project. I can just offer support
2014-01-08 16:36 dos11 is now known as dos1
2014-01-08 16:36 <DocScrutinizer05> and cooperation
2014-01-08 16:36 <larsc> security hardening is really hard to get right
2014-01-08 16:36 <DocScrutinizer05> sure, but we don't need to meet mil specs regarding that
2014-01-08 16:37 <DocScrutinizer05> ;-)
2014-01-08 16:38 <DocScrutinizer05> just provide a somewhot useable and established UX aka "ecosystem" aka OS&app-collection that is already made with user privacy in mind
2014-01-08 16:38 <larsc> everything else is snakeoil
2014-01-08 16:39 <DocScrutinizer05> nah, our hw design already does 95% of the job for you
2014-01-08 16:39 <DocScrutinizer05> this is not meant to withstand a torture in NSA forensic labs
2014-01-08 16:40 <DocScrutinizer05> it just shouldn't give away all your contacts on a rogue SMS already
2014-01-08 16:40 <DocScrutinizer05> or keep them reasonably safe against the random spy with no special skills when device is lost
2014-01-08 16:41 <DocScrutinizer05> ensure that device is off when you switch it off, without need to remove battery
2014-01-08 16:41 <DocScrutinizer05> make sure that device doesn't eavesdrop on audio even when it is on
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2014-01-08 16:42 <DocScrutinizer05> a LOT of people are interested in such a device
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2014-01-08 16:43 <DocScrutinizer05> add a cryptfs with password query on unlock/power-up to that, plus our awesome hw-driven tight modem monitoring
2014-01-08 16:43 <DocScrutinizer05> and you're basically done.
2014-01-08 16:44 <DocScrutinizer05> what you need to make sure: kick off all simple ways for user to install potentially rogue apps
2014-01-08 16:44 <DocScrutinizer05> simply done by setting up repos accordingly
2014-01-08 16:45 <DocScrutinizer05> and not allowing browser to install apps or even run JS or whatever. Best run browser in a sandbox/chroot
2014-01-08 16:46 <DocScrutinizer05> we don't need *high* security. We need reasonable setup of the wholoe system so users know it#s not THAT easy to catch a nasty virus or to spy on them without even doing a half day of preparing special tools
2014-01-08 16:49 <DocScrutinizer05> and you can post a looong list of things this device&OS will *not* do, unlike most other phones: call home, send your contacts list to anybody who asks for it, stay on while pretending it's off, allow your boss/fiance/competitor to simply install a 500EUR spyware during the 5 minutes you keft the device on table while going to poop, etc pp
2014-01-08 16:50 <DocScrutinizer05> s/keft/left/
2014-01-08 16:50 <qi-bot> DocScrutinizer05 meant: "and you can post a looong list of things this device&OS will *not* do, unlike most other phones: call home, send your contacts list to anybody who asks for it, stay on while pretending it's off, allow your boss/fiance/competitor to simply install a 500EUR spyware during the 5 minutes you left the device on table while going to poop, etc pp"
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2014-01-08 16:52 <DocScrutinizer05> believe me, customers are not interested in "100% security" - they know pretty well such thing doesn't exist, the least when it comes to mobile phones
2014-01-08 16:54 <larsc> first get things up and running then we can thing about the next step
2014-01-08 16:54 <DocScrutinizer05> and for sure they don't expect the device to be hardened against physical attacks in a lab, or similar threats that involve high effort
2014-01-08 16:54 <dos1> DocScrutinizer05: what about root access, usb, bootloader? those should be somehow hardened as well I suppose
2014-01-08 16:54 <DocScrutinizer05> sure, dos1
2014-01-08 16:56 <dos1> but yeah, with neo900 that shouldn't be hard
2014-01-08 16:56 <DocScrutinizer05> to a degree so that it's not simple to install spyware while you left the device to some rogue guy for a few hours, without you noticing later on
2014-01-08 16:57 <dos1> when thinking about "hardened fremantle" I initially still had n900 in mind with nolo etc. :D
2014-01-08 16:57 <DocScrutinizer05> a crypted rootfs already does a pretty good job for this
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2014-01-08 16:58 <DocScrutinizer05> sure you probably *could* create a system that gets booted and runs your original system in a VM
2014-01-08 16:59 <DocScrutinizer05> so you possibly wouldn't notice the vast differences in behavior during boot (takes much longer, shows unusual displays for a while, etc)
2014-01-08 17:00 <DocScrutinizer05> but then such attack takes much more effort than installing a commercially available standard spyware
2014-01-08 17:00 <DocScrutinizer05> and had to get tailored to your particular device
2014-01-08 17:00 <dos1> just make a small system that mimics the passphrase dialog
2014-01-08 17:01 <dos1> should be managable in few hours if you really wanted to
2014-01-08 17:01 <DocScrutinizer05> for that you had to know what the passphrase dialog looks like, and you had to boot into the original system ag´fter querying the passphrase, in a way so user doesn't notice any differences
2014-01-08 17:02 <DocScrutinizer05> after+
2014-01-08 17:02 <dos1> had to know what the passphrase dialog looks like - easy, just boot it and watch :D
2014-01-08 17:02 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, and then go back to lab and build it to your rogueware
2014-01-08 17:03 <DocScrutinizer05> and meanwhile user changed the way this dialog looks for him, maybe even automatically by a cronjob
2014-01-08 17:03 <dos1>  you had to boot into the original system ag´fter querying the passphrase, in a way so user doesn't notice any differences - you just have to get the key once, so for some cases you may just force one unexpected reboot after that
2014-01-08 17:04 <DocScrutinizer05> again, how do you run such attack against a guy who gives you the phone for one hour?
2014-01-08 17:04 <DocScrutinizer05> or even for just 5 min
2014-01-08 17:04 <dos1> 5 min - yeah, rather impossible
2014-01-08 17:04 <dos1> 1 hour - might work
2014-01-08 17:05 <dos1> unless there are some additional things like cron-changed details you mentioned
2014-01-08 17:05 <DocScrutinizer05> I don't see that happen. No "applied forensics corp" will ever sell a "spy your fiance" app for 1500 bucks, that a noob can install on a Neo900 with "fremantle hardened edition"
2014-01-08 17:06 <dos1> yep
2014-01-08 17:06 <DocScrutinizer05> so, mission accomplished
2014-01-08 17:07 <DocScrutinizer05> again, nobody expects the thing to withstand a massive direct attack run by a group of experts with time and funds
2014-01-08 17:07 <dos1> but if your fiance is computer geek like us and he/she is extremely envious, it might work :P
2014-01-08 17:07 <DocScrutinizer05> people want reasonable protection against simple attacks your neighbour could run against you
2014-01-08 17:09 <DocScrutinizer05> when you think you can outsmart the CIA or NSA or whomever, when they got special interest in particularly you, then you lost the game before you started
2014-01-08 17:09 <DocScrutinizer05> and users pretty well are aware of that fact
2014-01-08 17:09 <dos1> sure, I just imagine that my neighbour may have for instance the same knowledge that I am
2014-01-08 17:09 <dos1> I have*
2014-01-08 17:10 <dos1> so if I can find some way to break into such device of my neighbour, then it's not good enough IMO :D
2014-01-08 17:10 <DocScrutinizer05> I promise you couldn't come up with a reasonable attack sttrategy that would allow you to install spyware on my Neo900 without me noticing
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2014-01-08 17:11 <dos1> there's also the matter of what "without me noticing" means
2014-01-08 17:11 <larsc> is that a challenge?
2014-01-08 17:11 <DocScrutinizer05> that's pretty simple: any such attacker may not risk that *anybody* ever notices
2014-01-08 17:11 <dos1> for you some unexpected reboot while booting would be clear signal that something is wrong
2014-01-08 17:12 <dos1> DocScrutinizer05: and what if they are ready to risk? if ~90% possibility of not getting caught is good enough?
2014-01-08 17:13 <dos1> while for you reboot would be clear sign, someone else might not even think about it
2014-01-08 17:14 <DocScrutinizer05> create an attack you think might work, and we will discuss it. Until then I say what we need is a fremantle with cryptfs and browser in a snadbox, and a proper lockout of any way to install random apps that are not certified by the one who offers that hardening service
2014-01-08 17:14 <dos1> oh, another idea - instead of "unexpected reboot" just fake battery going flat
2014-01-08 17:14 <DocScrutinizer05> so what?
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2014-01-08 17:15 <dos1> I mean, do that after typing the passphrase
2014-01-08 17:15 <dos1> then go into "act dead" mode while doing some heavy infinite loop on cpu to actually make the battery flat
2014-01-08 17:16 <DocScrutinizer05> again, then what?
2014-01-08 17:16 <DocScrutinizer05> then you maybe got the passphrase, and with much luck you actually were able to send it out via WLAN or WWAN
2014-01-08 17:17 <DocScrutinizer05> you still have not installed anything on the device
2014-01-08 17:17 <dos1> if you have passphrase, you have the rootfs
2014-01-08 17:17 <dos1> so together with sending passphrase you can setup remote shell as well
2014-01-08 17:18 <DocScrutinizer05> and you're still thinking of a simple comstant text passphrase
2014-01-08 17:18 <DocScrutinizer05> remote shell to YOUR system
2014-01-08 17:18 <DocScrutinizer05> not to the USER's system
2014-01-08 17:18 <dos1> to your system with rootfs of users system mounted and decrypted
2014-01-08 17:18 <DocScrutinizer05> haha
2014-01-08 17:19 <DocScrutinizer05> when you use some sort of challenge-response authentication, then you're pretty lost with your approach
2014-01-08 17:20 <dos1> yep
2014-01-08 17:20 <dos1> so it has to be taken into consideration as well :)
2014-01-08 17:21 <DocScrutinizer05> again, we are not interested in this sort of highly tailored-to-singular-target threat
2014-01-08 17:22 <DocScrutinizer05> when you think your authentication can get tampered by such attack, the the company who offers such service simply ships a new authentication every month
2014-01-08 17:22 <DocScrutinizer05> good luck with keeping your penetration tools up to date
2014-01-08 17:24 <dos1> if the scenario I described would be possible, then I'd consider it not hardened enough, as it's not very sophisticated attack IMO
2014-01-08 17:24 <DocScrutinizer05> to make it a tad more challenging for my fiance, we can roll out new authentication method/plugin in randomized timeframe, so nobody knows if the tool you want to use will still work or already make the whole rogue effort fire back at you
2014-01-08 17:24 <dos1> average joe couldn't do that on his wife's phone anyway, but average dos1 could :D
2014-01-08 17:25 <dos1> but if some challenge-response or whatever else makes it not possible, then it's fine
2014-01-08 17:26 <dos1> however, allowing to boot some different OS without authentication is still asking for a trouble in my eyes :P
2014-01-08 17:27 <DocScrutinizer05> nobody is going to boot your device while you're pooping, since they couldn't boot it to the original system to hide that they messed with device
2014-01-08 17:29 <DocScrutinizer05> and, thinking about it, we maybe could implement a boot counter so any booting of other OS would get detected by the still untampered original OS
2014-01-08 17:30 <dos1> yeah, just thought about it as well
2014-01-08 17:32 <dos1> and maybe some led blinking periodically that cannot be turned off programmatically to indicate that device is on?
2014-01-08 17:32 <DocScrutinizer05> that's already planned
2014-01-08 17:32 <DocScrutinizer05> though optionally
2014-01-08 17:33 <dos1> so without "fake off" possibility it should be much harder, yes
2014-01-08 17:34 <dos1> while allowing booting some other os might be handy in terms of recovery
2014-01-08 17:34 <DocScrutinizer05> fake-off is a pretty low concern to me, since average user will NOT turn off their Neo900 since it#s safe when on
2014-01-08 17:35 <dos1> DocScrutinizer05: but battery flat scenarios with fake-off might mask some unexpected behaviour
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2014-01-08 17:36 <DocScrutinizer05> battery flat would be double-useless
2014-01-08 17:37 <dos1> I mean, faking battery going flat, so you're not suprised when it goes off
2014-01-08 17:37 <DocScrutinizer05> since other hw monitoring e.g. for modem-TX also kicks in when you pretend you're off
2014-01-08 17:37 <dos1> as opposed to sudden unexpected reboot which is causing you to be suspicious
2014-01-08 17:38 <DocScrutinizer05> so you pretend battery flat, while device LED signals not only device on but also signals constant TX activity
2014-01-08 17:39 <dos1> when LED signals device on then there's no point of doing battery flat faking
2014-01-08 17:39 <DocScrutinizer05> and a sudden battery-flat is as suspicious as is a sudden reboot
2014-01-08 17:40 <dos1> and one might come with some other things to do than modem tx
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2014-01-08 17:41 <dos1> DocScrutinizer05: imagine that you went to party/shopping/wherever but forgot about your phone, allowing fiance to play with it
2014-01-08 17:41 <DocScrutinizer05> yeaah, and my fiance or neighbor might finally decide it's way easier to implant a hidden mike with own battery and all, rather than tamper my Neo900
2014-01-08 17:41 <dos1> hah :D
2014-01-08 17:42 <DocScrutinizer05> particularly since I immediately swap battery when it's flat
2014-01-08 17:42 <DocScrutinizer05> and immediately boot device up when it's down
2014-01-08 17:43 <DocScrutinizer05> which pretty much renders all your busy efforts void
2014-01-08 17:43 <dos1> other users might have other habits
2014-01-08 17:45 <dos1> so someone returns, "hey, why it's off", turns it on, loading, passphrase, loading, it fakes turning off from low battery, "ooh, battery went flat"
2014-01-08 17:46 <DocScrutinizer05> honestly, I ask you to implement such attack so it actually works, or it literally didn't happen
2014-01-08 17:47 <dos1> I'm not saying that it is or will be possible to implement such attack
2014-01-08 17:47 <DocScrutinizer05> users want a device that doesn't come with spyware preinstalled, no way to install spyware by surfing arbitrary websites, and not acting as expected to silent SMS and similar stuff
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2014-01-08 17:48 <dos1> I'm saying that it might be possible, so it should be considered
2014-01-08 17:48 <dos1> as it can be prevented by very basic things like some led indicators
2014-01-08 17:48 <DocScrutinizer05> and particularly no standard commercial tool to install that turns the device into a zombie controlled from remote
2014-01-08 17:49 <DocScrutinizer05> and they want their contacts and notes to be considerably safe when device is lost
2014-01-08 17:49 <DocScrutinizer05> and when it returns to them, they will consider it compromised anyway
2014-01-08 17:51 <DocScrutinizer05> when they leave the device 5min on table or one night in charger, they expect it to be up and running when they come back
2014-01-08 17:52 <DocScrutinizer05> and maybe we can train them to remove battery for 5 seconds before they power their device up after a few days it stayed off in a locker
2014-01-08 17:54 <DocScrutinizer05> this will all not help against a sophisitcated hichtech attack, but it will make your neighbor's life _much_ harder when he plans to mess with your Neo900
2014-01-08 17:55 <DocScrutinizer05> and for the customers I'm talking about, that's just a sufficient improvement of security over anything they could get now
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2014-01-08 17:55 <DocScrutinizer05> swo: mission accomplished
2014-01-08 17:55 <DocScrutinizer05> so, even
2014-01-08 17:56 <DocScrutinizer05> security is not about 100%, it#s about teaching users where the limits of such security are
2014-01-08 17:57 <dos1> :nod:
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2014-01-08 19:35 <DocScrutinizer05> http://culturedigitally.org/2014/01/spam-and-the-challenge-of-chasing-shadows/  about Neo900
2014-01-08 19:35 <DocScrutinizer05> (use "find" to spot the right section)
2014-01-08 19:42 <wpwrak_> nice one ! but it's not just for maemo enthusiasts :)
2014-01-08 19:45 <DocScrutinizer05> well, that's the "uneducated approach" to it
2014-01-08 19:45 <DocScrutinizer05> actually from my side the motivation pretty much been exactly like what this article describes
2014-01-08 19:46 <DocScrutinizer05> I just seen the opportunity and the synergy of several intentions, desires, events...
2014-01-08 19:47 <DocScrutinizer05> not just by incident the seeding message been in a ML thread tagged "funding an ubuntu phone [NOW!]" OWTTE
2014-01-08 19:48 <DocScrutinizer05> http://markmail.org/message/4mawtyyeizlcejss?q=android
2014-01-08 19:53 <wpwrak_> "plus a few circuit addons like hw matrix kb" it all sounded so easy ;-)
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2014-01-08 20:07 <DocScrutinizer05> suuure, when I had elaborated what it actually takes, nobody would've even started thinking about it
2014-01-08 20:08 <DocScrutinizer05> ;-D
2014-01-08 20:09 <DocScrutinizer05> I been pretty aware of the audio and whatnot issues
2014-01-08 20:09 <DocScrutinizer05> what I didn't expect been absolute unobtainium of decent PoP chips
2014-01-08 20:11 <DocScrutinizer05> as well as total refusal of users to accept "only" 512MB RAM
2014-01-08 20:11 <DocScrutinizer05> aftr all the current system rarely ever uses >100MB swap
2014-01-08 20:12 <wpwrak_> zeitgeist sometimes sucks :)
2014-01-08 20:12 <DocScrutinizer05> thus 256MB RAM + say 150MB swap = ~400MB memory
2014-01-08 20:12 <wpwrak_> just try selling a good high-end B&W TV ... ;-)
2014-01-08 20:13 <DocScrutinizer05> meh, you don't want to say 512MB RAM is like B&W ?
2014-01-08 20:13 <wpwrak_> ok. color, but with VHF only :)
2014-01-08 20:14 <DocScrutinizer05> errr
2014-01-08 20:14 <DocScrutinizer05> as opposed to what? VHF + UHF?
2014-01-08 20:14 <wpwrak_> + cable :)
2014-01-08 20:15 <DocScrutinizer05> so DVB
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2014-01-08 20:17 <dos1> let me check the amount of RAM on my Freerunner... :D
2014-01-08 20:18 <dos1> 58 MB used, 64 MB free
2014-01-08 20:19 <dos1> could be more freed if opimd-notifier was in C instead of Python
2014-01-08 20:20 <wpwrak_> hehe :) so much about "512 MB is not enough !!!!"
2014-01-08 20:20 <wpwrak_> well, it's of course that you can never have too much memory
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2014-01-08 21:45 <nicksydney> DocScrutinizer05: Neo900 can be created as a dev board for students to learn about mobile phones
2014-01-08 21:49 <nicksydney> wpwrak_: how's the weather down there ?
2014-01-08 21:50 <wpwrak_> pretty good. warm, clear sky, a good summer day
2014-01-08 21:50 <nicksydney> DocScrutinizer05: if Neo900 were drawn out as a single sided design how big the board will be ?
2014-01-08 21:50 <nicksydney> wpwrak_: it's time to head to the beach and check out all those beautiful girls :)
2014-01-08 21:54 <nicksydney> wpwrak_: oh don't forget the vodka
2014-01-08 21:55 <DocScrutinizer05> nicksydney: infinite
2014-01-08 21:56 <DocScrutinizer05> you can mathematically prove that you need at least 6 layers to un-nest a BGA of SoC's complexity
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2014-01-08 22:10 <wpwrak_> the beaches are way too crowded. there are better places to see girls :)
2014-01-08 22:10 <wpwrak_> (6 layers) where ought to be a lot of other parameters if this is supposed to be true :)
2014-01-08 22:11 <wpwrak_> s/where/there/
2014-01-08 22:11 <qi-bot> wpwrak_ meant: "(6 layers) there ought to be a lot of other parameters if this is supposed to be true :)"
2014-01-08 22:16 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm desperate from openmoko.org MX broken with my SMTP mail sending
2014-01-08 22:18 <DocScrutinizer05> well, the other parameter is ball pitch, and obviously footprint at large
2014-01-08 22:20 <DocScrutinizer05> it's simply ridiculous to try and route a fine pitch ball grid array with some 6 or more concentric rings of balls on a single or double layer PCB
2014-01-08 22:21 <DocScrutinizer05> there's a certain minimum width of traces and a minimum diameter for laser vias
2014-01-08 22:21 <wpwrak_> well, single layer sounds more like a form of art if not magic ;)
2014-01-08 22:22 <DocScrutinizer05> (for double layer obviously, for single you don't have vias)
2014-01-08 22:23 <wpwrak_> the limiting factor may be power. even if you manage to get everything outside with, say, two layers, you'd still have very complicated paths and very long power routes. that can't be good for high-speed circuits.
2014-01-08 22:23 <DocScrutinizer05> so you can see easily how you need to route some 5 or 6 traces between two balls of the 0.4mm(?) FPBGA
2014-01-08 22:23 <wpwrak_> well, unless what have is a huge fpga of which you're only using a small number of i/os. then you may be able to get away with it.
2014-01-08 22:24 <wpwrak_> 0.4 mm sounds suckish :)
2014-01-08 22:25 <DocScrutinizer05> not even then, since you can't place balls on solder stop with traces underneath instead of pads
2014-01-08 22:26 <wpwrak_> yeah, you need a pitch that lets you at least route one trace between balls
2014-01-08 22:26 <DocScrutinizer05> I think TI itself says for OMAP4 you need 8-layer at least, to un-nest
2014-01-08 22:27 <wpwrak_> how much easier life could be if someone made and sold decent pops :)
2014-01-08 22:28 <DocScrutinizer05> for me right now it would make me perfectly happy when I could find out what the heck is breaking my email
2014-01-08 22:29 <DocScrutinizer05> yesterdsay it temporarily started to work absolutely flawless again, then eventually broke and now it#s back to fubar it been yesterday morning
2014-01-08 22:30 <DocScrutinizer05> I tested with thunderbird as well, and same result
2014-01-08 22:31 <DocScrutinizer05> [2014-01-08 21:41:22] <pabs3> DocScrutinizer05: hmm, succeeded in sending myself a mail using swaks and a new test account: swaks --tls --auth --to pabs3@bonedaddy.net --server smtp.openmoko.org
2014-01-08 22:32 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm totally puzzled even which port to use
2014-01-08 22:33 <DocScrutinizer05> while it seems like smtp is port 25, thunderbird started stating something like 564 or whatever for the default of STARTLS
2014-01-08 22:34 <DocScrutinizer05> pabs3's line above doesn't really state which port and which exact authentication etc he used
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2014-01-08 23:46 <nicksydney> i'm sure someone here can help me to understand something inside Kernel :)
2014-01-08 23:48 <nicksydney> most of the time i read about graphics driver and it says that the vendor closed source it....so was wondering when the vendor closed source the driver does this mean that the kernel only knows how to load the driver (.so) file and then use like a virtual function to call the functions inside the closed code ?
2014-01-08 23:59 <wpwrak_> typically the kernel code of closed drivers is relatively simple and open. but the code that does the real work runs in user space, talks to that kernel driver, and is closed.