2014-01-06 00:03 <nicksydney> larsc: that's why i asked i have no idea if it can be that small
2014-01-06 00:04 <larsc> the size of the chip is often larger than the die because of all the IO signals, in this case you don't have that many IO signals
2014-01-06 00:04 <nicksydney> in my mind thought even if is is small can it be that very small because looking at the packaging of that dongle it is very small
2014-01-06 00:05 <nicksydney> ahhh..so you mean that it is possible that this kind of dongle does not have that many pins and also it does not have the normal MCU packaging that are normally sold through digikey and the like ?
2014-01-06 00:06 <larsc> yes
2014-01-06 00:07 <nicksydney> now that makes perfect sense
2014-01-06 00:07 <nicksydney> so this means most products out there in the market that are small packages normally have this kind of setup inside
2014-01-06 00:07 <larsc> a specialized mcu instead of a general purpose mcu
2014-01-06 00:07 <nicksydney> is that why when you crack open one of this kind of consumer product..there is a black blob ?
2014-01-06 00:08 <larsc> if there is any software in there at all
2014-01-06 00:08 <nicksydney> something like this http://i.stack.imgur.com/1FUML.gif?
2014-01-06 00:08 <larsc> it's cheaper that way
2014-01-06 00:09 <larsc> the chip is basically build right ontop of the pcb
2014-01-06 00:10 <larsc> here is what it looks like without the blob http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:Bonding_wire_defect1.jpg
2014-01-06 00:10 <nicksydney> interesting
2014-01-06 00:11 <nicksydney> so how do i go about producting product with this kind of 'cheaper' version of the MCU ? we need to request from the vendor like Freescale, Atmel, etc tha?
2014-01-06 00:12 <larsc> http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=bonding&fulltext=Search&ns6=1&redirs=1&profile=advanced
2014-01-06 00:13 <larsc> no idea
2014-01-06 00:13 <larsc> but I don't think you need to go to the vendor
2014-01-06 00:15 <nicksydney> was these bonding pictures taken with a high powered microscope ? i can imagine te wire must be damn tiny !
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2014-01-06 00:20 <larsc> the die is a bit bigger than a thumb, so it not that small
2014-01-06 00:21 <larsc> probably a good camera
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2014-01-06 00:24 <larsc> but that's a full SoC. Now imagine something specialized like your usb to bluetooth adapter
2014-01-06 00:24 <larsc> the die will be tiny
2014-01-06 00:25 <nicksydney> interesting
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2014-01-06 03:48 <nicksydney> hmmm...thought people don't sleep here :)
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2014-01-06 04:33 <wpwrak_> nicksydney: (android) hmm, seems fairly complicated. note sure you'd want to keep use counts, too. the security implications would need examining.
2014-01-06 04:34 <nicksydney> wpwrak_: fair enought...when you say complicated in terms of the hw design or the fw ?
2014-01-06 04:36 <wpwrak_> it's all in fw, isn't it ?
2014-01-06 04:37 <wpwrak_> microSD use in any case should be  "very little" / "vastly excessive abundance of space"
2014-01-06 04:39 <nicksydney> wpwrak_: let's consider a use case...user insert sdcard and anelok reads all info in memory...user remove sdcard but the info still in memory...using other device (android) it can get certain info about the device using bluetooth
2014-01-06 04:44 <wpwrak_> if you remove the memcard, anelok will not work. it doesn't have large caches of this sort.
2014-01-06 04:45 <wpwrak_> in fact, it should be "data-less" by design. that way, you can "wipe" it by removing the card.
2014-01-06 04:47 <nicksydney> hmm...interesting
2014-01-06 04:48 <nicksydney> so if there is no sdcard then anelok assume it will not do anything
2014-01-06 04:48 <nicksydney> it will blink or something to indicate that it is in "wipe" mode
2014-01-06 04:48 <wpwrak_> it can display a complaint :)
2014-01-06 04:49 <nicksydney> ok we use the OLED :)
2014-01-06 04:49 <nicksydney> and once sdcard is detected it will be in a "running" mode
2014-01-06 04:50 <wpwrak_> and it can still provide some communication functionality. it will still have access to the keys stored in the "secure" area (the mcu) but the bulk of the information is on the card
2014-01-06 04:50 <wpwrak_> yes, then it has information about accounts and maybe also other things like more fonts and such
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2014-01-06 04:51 <nicksydney> ok
2014-01-06 04:51 <nicksydney> what other things from the android list that you think can be used ? or none ? :)
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2014-01-06 04:52 <wpwrak_> not sure about the distance thing. chances are it'll just produce lots of false alarms, and mainly when you leave the droid behind, not when someone makes off with the anelok
2014-01-06 04:53 <wpwrak_> backup ... dunno what protocols are there. if there's some "storage over bt", that could be used
2014-01-06 04:55 <nicksydney> lots of false alarms ? how this ?
2014-01-06 05:01 <wpwrak_> because you may not pay a lot of attention to having your droid close
2014-01-06 05:01 <wpwrak_> e.g., in an office or at home
2014-01-06 05:01 <wpwrak_> "secure" places
2014-01-06 05:03 <nicksydney> true...but the user will have the option in the droid app to ignore or disable this kind of warning
2014-01-06 05:04 <nicksydney> the rationale is to take anelok as your 'password bodyguard'
2014-01-06 05:04 <nicksydney> so user treat it as part of their day to day device
2014-01-06 05:04 <nicksydney> if they do this that means they will not forget to bring it out with them same as their droid or credit card
2014-01-06 05:05 <nicksydney> AND since anelok works like a 'keyboard' it can be used also in your droid device
2014-01-06 05:05 <wpwrak_> as a BTLE keyboard, some day (BTLE is currently too insecure for this. but time if working in our favour ;-)
2014-01-06 05:05 <wpwrak_> #s/ if / is /
2014-01-06 05:06 <wpwrak_> and yes, i envision that people will keep anelok close. in fact, closer than their droid. so the droid watching over anelok seems a little silly :)
2014-01-06 05:07 <nicksydney> or we can utilise whistling to detect if anelok is withing our distance ?
2014-01-06 05:07 <nicksydney> main thing is to track it
2014-01-06 05:07 <nicksydney> as we can't install GPS :)
2014-01-06 05:08 <nicksydney> it's complementary i suppose
2014-01-06 05:10 <wpwrak_> no new sensors :) there's already not a lot of space
2014-01-06 05:11 <nicksydney> exactly .. so we can use the BT to do some the distance checking
2014-01-06 05:11 <nicksydney> better be able to know if it is close by rather than not knowing where it is
2014-01-06 05:12 <nicksydney> use case "last night got drunk and got someone at home in bed and the next morning you forgot where you keep your anelok"
2014-01-06 05:13 <nicksydney> we can also turn off the distance checking with extra menu in fw to select/deselect this kind of option
2014-01-06 05:17 <wpwrak_> well, you can keep track of where and when you last saw it. that would apply to any BTLE device.
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2014-01-06 05:20 <wpwrak_> now there's a nicely compact battery holder :) http://www.batteryholders.com/part.php?pn=BC-2003&original=CR2032&override=CR2032
2014-01-06 05:23 <wpwrak_> alas, made of unobtainium. not even octopart knows it
2014-01-06 05:29 <nicksydney> wpwrak_: so from your perspective what you think the bluetooth is used for in anelok ?
2014-01-06 05:36 <wpwrak_> keyboard and analok-specific account selection
2014-01-06 05:36 <wpwrak_> for now, all we can do will be over proprietary (but open) protocols since BTLE is very insecure
2014-01-06 05:37 <wpwrak_> so the btle-capable chip is more an investment into the future
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2014-01-06 11:51 <wpwrak_> DocScrutinizer05: so how do I get a destination in Argentina to the Neo900 list ? :) and how much do you estimate your kits with a full case will be ? (since i don't have an N900, just the PCB would be useless for me)
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2014-01-06 12:49 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ircstat/stat: add processing of irclog.whitequark.org; rename #milkymist to #m-labs (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/1fab23c
2014-01-06 12:49 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ircstat/ML: update for 12/2013 (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/a27d195
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2014-01-06 17:09 <DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak_: sorry, I don't think Argentina is supported by the webshop yet, but I suggest mailing contact(AT)neo900.org and ask Nikolaus to manage the whole thing
2014-01-06 17:10 <DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak_: we don'z know yet if and for how much we can source the N900 mech parts. Should be less that 150EUR though
2014-01-06 17:11 <DocScrutinizer05> for 150EUR you get a "new" N900 any time
2014-01-06 17:12 <DocScrutinizer05> so we hope to keep the additional cost <150EUR, incl "mounting service"
2014-01-06 17:13 <DocScrutinizer05> I recently found a component source in Jemen or UAE or something, who claim they have e.g. the hard-to-source slider-mech incl FPC for 5.06$
2014-01-06 17:14 <DocScrutinizer05> when you can find this part at all in Europe or the like, it cost 8 times as much
2014-01-06 17:15 <DocScrutinizer05> recently we found a seller in GB who sells the main cam module for 11GBP, we had a source that asked for 50EUR plus shipping and VAT
2014-01-06 17:16 <DocScrutinizer05> this all is a terrible nightmare, sourcing wise
2014-01-06 17:16 <DocScrutinizer05> as most sources are scam or minimum available qty
2014-01-06 17:16 <DocScrutinizer05> only the cases seem abundance
2014-01-06 17:16 <wpwrak_> so you're still planning on offering completely assembled units ?
2014-01-06 17:17 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, we have to
2014-01-06 17:17 <DocScrutinizer05> the DIY doesn't fly
2014-01-06 17:17 <wpwrak_> and yes, i can imagine that sourcing must be a flaming PITA :)
2014-01-06 17:17 <wpwrak_> good :)
2014-01-06 17:20 <DocScrutinizer05> for the Jemen /Jordany(?) contact a user contacted me and asked how he can help, a week later he asked his next corner mobile phone shop dude who sayd he has a friend who does business in the millions with companies in UAE, Jordany, and pointed me to that supplier
2014-01-06 17:23 <DocScrutinizer05> and then I every now and then do really embarrassing oopsies like http://projects.goldelico.com/p/neo900/issues/541/#ic1597
2014-01-06 17:23 <DocScrutinizer05> :-S
2014-01-06 17:24 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm so happy I'm not the only one looking into all that ;-)
2014-01-06 17:24 <DocScrutinizer05> > >Unfortunately the LED proposed has a common Anode but we need common Cathode for the LP5523.<<
2014-01-06 17:25 <DocScrutinizer05> that's what you get for doing 8+h on one topic
2014-01-06 17:26 <DocScrutinizer05> in the end you lose the overview while focusing on a single silly detail (like formfactor)
2014-01-06 17:28 <DocScrutinizer05> btw you won, finaly, at ~2100CET
2014-01-06 17:28 <DocScrutinizer05> ;-)
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2014-01-06 17:32 <wpwrak_> (oopsie) hehe, good catch :)
2014-01-06 17:33 <wpwrak_> (21:00 CET) excellent. i think i went out about two hours later ;-) (around 19 local time)
2014-01-06 17:35 <wpwrak_> (middle eastern contact) sounds interesting. maybe he also has a friend who knows some caliph who's tired of being spied on by the NSA and the chinese and wants to order a few neo900 for himself and his harem :)
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2014-01-06 17:59 <DocScrutinizer05> actaully a goos idea :-)
2014-01-06 18:03 <wpwrak_> whitequark: by the way, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EFnftq3Fi8
2014-01-06 18:03 <wpwrak_> i like the 2nd one. very classy :)
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2014-01-06 18:54 <whitequark> wpwrak_: hahaha that's priceless
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2014-01-06 19:26 <DocScrutinizer05> what the heck does it transport?
2014-01-06 19:36 <DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak_: btw may I state that I feel honored by your interest in getting a Neo900 :-)
2014-01-06 19:38 <DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak_: (Argentina) I happily will do a donation in your name and forward the receipt and eventually the device to you, via whatever shipping you chose
2014-01-06 19:41 <DocScrutinizer05> or you do donation yourself, pick Switzerland or Germany, and moneytransfer, and my addr or even goldelico  ;-) as shipping addr. If money transfer is too expensive, transfer the money to my paypal and I'll forward it to goldelico official account
2014-01-06 19:42 <DocScrutinizer05> (and probably back to "my" Neo900 org account, in a few weeks ;-D  )
2014-01-06 19:55 <kyak> wpwrak_: you should come visit Russia and see a burning truck for yourself :)
2014-01-06 19:56 <kyak> you have to set it on fire yourself, but that can be organized ;)
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2014-01-06 19:58 * whitequark likes setting things on fire
2014-01-06 20:00 <wpwrak_> DocScrutinizer05: (honored) bah, it's the dream of openmoko finally come true. how could i possibly resist ? :)
2014-01-06 20:02 <DocScrutinizer05> :-) thanks!
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2014-01-06 20:03 <DocScrutinizer05> could I talk you into helping a bit with porting kernel (and fremantle) to that platform?
2014-01-06 20:04 <wpwrak_> DocScrutinizer05: i can make a transfer from my .ch account, no problem. i think i'll ping sales@goldelico.com  (correct ?) to make sure none of the fancy country-dependent calculations (mis)fire
2014-01-06 20:04 <DocScrutinizer05> correct
2014-01-06 20:04 <wpwrak_> phew, i have a bit of money but not all that much time ...
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2014-01-06 20:05 <DocScrutinizer05> though contact at neo900.org also arrives at goldelico but also at Sebastian and me
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2014-01-06 20:18 <DocScrutinizer05> (country-dependant calcs) not much of them apply. You simply "donate" the amount you plan to donate, you receive an invoice with a transaction number, you transfer the money according to instructions in that invoice, Nikolaus will adjust the amount in database according to the true amount of EUR arriving at our account
2014-01-06 20:18 <DocScrutinizer05> just make sure any transaction fee at your bank is paid by you 100%
2014-01-06 20:19 <DocScrutinizer05> and the money transfer is EUR, not CHF
2014-01-06 20:20 <DocScrutinizer05> this should already ensure that the true amount arriving at our account is exactly what you "donated" in the beginning
2014-01-06 20:21 <wpwrak_> yup, the transfer is no problem. just want to make sure it doesn't upset your processing or creates a tax liability on your end
2014-01-06 20:21 <DocScrutinizer05> the "destination" is just to make sure nobody "orders" to a country we don't know how to ship to
2014-01-06 20:21 <DocScrutinizer05> and for CC check
2014-01-06 20:21 <DocScrutinizer05> (tax) we are liable for tax anyway, for donations
2014-01-06 20:22 <DocScrutinizer05> this will get re-evaluated for later shipping outside of EU
2014-01-06 20:22 <DocScrutinizer05> for donations no shipping of physical goods -> 19% VAT
2014-01-06 20:22 <DocScrutinizer05> >:-(
2014-01-06 20:23 <wpwrak_> yeah, it's the VAT i'm concerned about. sent mail to "contacts". let's see what you come up with :)
2014-01-06 20:24 <DocScrutinizer05> VAT is a nobrainer for donations, since we *always* pay it
2014-01-06 20:24 <wpwrak_> oh, that's suckish
2014-01-06 20:24 <DocScrutinizer05> later on we can rollback when we actually ship a device
2014-01-06 20:24 <wpwrak_> ah, i see
2014-01-06 20:25 <DocScrutinizer05> so, VAT is largely irrelevant for the donations
2014-01-06 20:25 <DocScrutinizer05> just kicks in later for the *real* order
2014-01-06 20:26 <DocScrutinizer05> you donate 100EUR, you have a voucher worth 100EUR
2014-01-06 20:26 <DocScrutinizer05> don't worry about VAT
2014-01-06 20:27 <DocScrutinizer05> of course when you donate significantly more than 100EUR, VAT is even less of a concern even to paranoid donors
2014-01-06 20:27 <wpwrak_> btw, the N units each "10 EUR" is subtle ;-) i wonder how many rollbacks you get from people who accidently donate 1000 EUR ;-)
2014-01-06 20:27 <DocScrutinizer05> surprisingly little
2014-01-06 20:28 <DocScrutinizer05> prolly due to the fact that the total is mentioned in your chart
2014-01-06 20:30 <wpwrak_> so people do check. good :)
2014-01-06 20:32 <wpwrak_> hmm, my test equipment dealer seems to be on vacation :-( asked them if they have the rigol ds2072 (which can apparently be hacked to run at 200 MHz) in stock but no response :-(
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2014-01-06 21:03 <DocScrutinizer05> btw I ordered 50mL of Galden goo
2014-01-06 21:04 <DocScrutinizer05> :-D
2014-01-06 21:05 <DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak_: how did you manage to have a swiss bank account? I always suspected you inherited millions from some relative ;-)
2014-01-06 21:06 <DocScrutinizer05> bank of raster with accounts in Singapore and God knows who, you with account in Switzerland. I feel like I failed to manage some essential things in my life the way they should get managed
2014-01-06 21:07 <wpwrak_> DocScrutinizer05: easy: before moving to argentina i lived in switzerland. i simply kept my old account :)
2014-01-06 21:08 <DocScrutinizer05> Though you were Austrian
2014-01-06 21:08 <DocScrutinizer05> thought*
2014-01-06 21:08 <wpwrak_> alas, that millionaire relative who could bestow a fortune upon me still hasn't shown up :)
2014-01-06 21:09 <wpwrak_> yes, i am. but born in switzerland and lived there all my life, until moving down south
2014-01-06 21:09 <DocScrutinizer05> oooh
2014-01-06 21:10 <DocScrutinizer05> Austrian born in Switzerland, hehe
2014-01-06 21:11 <DocScrutinizer05> btw you got mail
2014-01-06 21:12 <wpwrak_> checking ...
2014-01-06 21:12 <wpwrak_> must be snail-mail  :)
2014-01-06 21:15 <wpwrak_> very snail
2014-01-06 21:15 <nicksydney> morning
2014-01-06 21:15 <wpwrak_> maybe glacial mail
2014-01-06 21:17 <nicksydney> are there any hard and fast rule on what resistors to use for D+ and D- for USB ?
2014-01-06 21:18 <nicksydney> notice for this schematics http://arduino.cc/en/uploads/Main/arduino-leonardo-schematic_3b.pdf it is using 22R  while this one http://www.instructables.com/id/USB-Wii-Classic-Controller/?ALLSTEPS it is using 68R
2014-01-06 21:21 <wpwrak_> for kl25 it's 33 Ohm :)  (dsv klqr, page 99)
2014-01-06 21:21 <nicksydney> so how do you derived this value ?
2014-01-06 21:21 <nicksydney> what is the criteria to decide what value resistor to use ?
2014-01-06 21:22 <DocScrutinizer05> WTF? is this already 6 years ago when I abandoned skype?? http://lists.mvlug.org/pipermail/mvlug/2008-July/000846.html
2014-01-06 21:22 <wpwrak_> i take whatever the reference design says ;-)
2014-01-06 21:23 <nicksydney> i see so the reference design state that for anelok...that make sense...but what if the reference design does not specify how do we estimate it ?
2014-01-06 21:23 <DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak_: From: Joerg Reisenweber <reisenweber@gmx.net>  To: Werner Almesberger <werner@almesberger.net>
2014-01-06 21:23 <DocScrutinizer05> dang!!
2014-01-06 21:23 <DocScrutinizer05> laintext emails
2014-01-06 21:23 <DocScrutinizer05> addr
2014-01-06 21:23 <DocScrutinizer05> sorry
2014-01-06 21:24 * DocScrutinizer05 slaps self, than headdesks a little
2014-01-06 21:24 <wpwrak_> looks correct
2014-01-06 21:24 <DocScrutinizer05> maybe the glorious qi-bot could filter out TAHT?
2014-01-06 21:25 <DocScrutinizer05> (instead of publicly visible IP addr that are obsolete anyway when they show up in log)
2014-01-06 21:26 <DocScrutinizer05> or at very least obfuscate it
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2014-01-06 21:26 <wpwrak_> at least in my case the spammers had something like 12+ years to catch my address. if one still hasn't found it that won't help them either :)
2014-01-06 21:26 <DocScrutinizer05> in my case that's a tad different
2014-01-06 21:26 <DocScrutinizer05> not my public addr
2014-01-06 21:27 <wpwrak_> ah well, now it is ;-)
2014-01-06 21:27 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah
2014-01-06 21:27 <DocScrutinizer05> well, it kinda always been, and it's reasonably well spam-filtered
2014-01-06 21:28 <DocScrutinizer05> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:JOERG
2014-01-06 21:29 <DocScrutinizer05> prolly NSA does manual filtering on mails into Argentina ;-)
2014-01-06 21:30 <DocScrutinizer05> or almestberger.net doesn't like GMX
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2014-01-06 21:49 <wpwrak_> i don't have any blacklists or such. just spamprobe at the very end. but that one didn't catch it either.
2014-01-06 21:50 <DocScrutinizer05> It arrived at CC (contact at neo900 org)
2014-01-06 21:50 <DocScrutinizer05> so GMX evidently sent it out
2014-01-06 21:51 <wpwrak_> nothing in my mail server log either. in fact, no gmx.net at all.
2014-01-06 21:51 <DocScrutinizer05> wtf?
2014-01-06 21:51 <wpwrak_> well, any gmx.net except yours would be spam ;-)
2014-01-06 21:56 <DocScrutinizer05> hm?
2014-01-06 21:58 <wpwrak_> i don't know anyone else who uses gmx. it's a bit like myspace, something from a different era ;-)
2014-01-06 21:58 <DocScrutinizer05> it's pretty puzzling that there must be at least THREE "jörg reisenweber" in German language domain
2014-01-06 21:59 <nicksydney> http://www.warpboard.org/
2014-01-06 21:59 <DocScrutinizer05> but luckily I'm *usually* "joerg"
2014-01-06 22:00 <DocScrutinizer05> only genuine with the "oe"
2014-01-06 22:00 <DocScrutinizer05> (or when in context of openmoko, maemo, or neo900)
2014-01-06 22:01 <DocScrutinizer05> and definitely I'm no firefigther, nor photographer, model, or realted to farming and crop
2014-01-06 22:01 <DocScrutinizer05> ;-P
2014-01-06 22:02 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, you guessed it: googling my name (usual practice every 3 months, to catch stuff that's going on relating to me without me noticing)
2014-01-06 22:04 <DocScrutinizer05> (gmx) still alive, just fusioned with web.de and 1&1 into unitymedia or somesuch
2014-01-06 22:05 <DocScrutinizer05> and this pretty much made it inoperable, I'm lucky I don't need to configure anything anymore, probably the web interface to do that only works unde MSIE
2014-01-06 22:06 <DocScrutinizer05> JS infested ad nauseum
2014-01-06 22:06 <DocScrutinizer05> web3.0 ;-)
2014-01-06 22:12 <wpwrak_> you wouldn't believe it but there is even another "werner almesberger"
2014-01-06 22:13 <nicksydney> twins ?
2014-01-06 22:14 <wpwrak_> naw, far from it :) the other one is 30 years older and into sports
2014-01-06 22:16 <larsc> who would give their twins the same surname?
2014-01-06 22:16 <larsc> eh, first name
2014-01-06 22:17 <nicksydney> we are living in a world where no 2 minds are the same :)
2014-01-06 22:18 <DocScrutinizer05> and probably also in a world where no two siblings share one first name
2014-01-06 22:18 <wpwrak_> larsc: well, wouldn't it be cute ? ;-) like dressing identical twins the same, etc. if parents keep that up long enough, it must have fascinating effects on their personality development. countless precious sessions for the shrinks ;-)
2014-01-06 22:18 <DocScrutinizer05> unless the parernts were really really nuts
2014-01-06 22:19 <nicksydney> DocScrutinizer05: smart people are nuts ... check out einstein :)
2014-01-06 22:20 <DocScrutinizer05> they would need to treat the twins as one individual
2014-01-06 22:20 <DocScrutinizer05> "eat up your dishes, Tom!"
2014-01-06 22:20 <DocScrutinizer05> "don't beat yourself, Tom!" ;-P
2014-01-06 22:20 <DocScrutinizer05> (ambiguity intended)
2014-01-06 22:22 <DocScrutinizer05> "This is our son Tom, he's 2 times 6 years old"
2014-01-06 22:23 * DocScrutinizer05 could figure some bonehead parents doing similar stuff for siamese twins
2014-01-06 22:24 <larsc> well there is this one girl who has two heads
2014-01-06 22:24 <DocScrutinizer05> actually when do you start treating siamese twins as two individuals?
2014-01-06 22:24 <larsc> each of the heads had to do their own drivers license
2014-01-06 22:24 <DocScrutinizer05> LOL
2014-01-06 22:25 <DocScrutinizer05> would it count as driving without license when only one of the heads had a license?
2014-01-06 22:25 <larsc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abigail_and_Brittany_Hensel
2014-01-06 22:25 <DocScrutinizer05> the one head could claim the other head drove the car
2014-01-06 22:34 <DocScrutinizer05> larsc: that's.... mindboggling
2014-01-06 22:43 <wpwrak_> amazing
2014-01-06 22:52 <larsc> there also seems to be one pair of conjoined twins who have two bodies but are conjoined at the head and share part of their brain and can read each others thoughts
2014-01-06 23:01 <wpwrak_> naturally born telepaths :)
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