2013-12-24 00:03 arielenter1 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
2013-12-24 00:16 <nickoe> wpwrak_: though the generated footprint seems a bit odd in the kicad format
2013-12-24 00:17 <nickoe> wpwrak_: there is no bottom pad
2013-12-24 00:29 zear has quit [Read error: No route to host]
2013-12-24 00:33 zear has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 00:33 <wpwrak_> for experimenting with it, you could try to run the kicad module editor and change the holes to through-hole pads
2013-12-24 00:34 <wpwrak_> that may solve this sort of issues
2013-12-24 00:34 <wpwrak_> if the result is good, i can later make fped make such adjustments
2013-12-24 00:45 pcercuei has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
2013-12-24 00:52 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 00:53 wej_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
2013-12-24 00:54 <whitequark> relevant to our recent discussion:http://www.jakoblell.com/blog/2013/12/22/practical-malleability-attack-against-cbc-encrypted-luks-partitions/
2013-12-24 00:54 <whitequark> ... wait, LUKS doesn't use authenticated encryption? O_O
2013-12-24 00:55 wej has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 00:58 <whitequark> ah, it does by default, but only since recently.
2013-12-24 01:08 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 01:11 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
2013-12-24 01:13 pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo]
2013-12-24 01:22 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
2013-12-24 01:55 <whitequark> http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7b7_1387801108
2013-12-24 02:07 <wpwrak_> hehe. too bad the bird didn't take off. it's fun to watch them fly after a good drink :)
2013-12-24 02:16 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 02:19 <whitequark> wpwrak_: how would you know?
2013-12-24 02:28 <wpwrak_> once upon a time, when i was still a student, when a party came to an end at sunrise, we went to sit outside. one guy had a bottle of whisky. someone had some bread. the two were quickly combined and offered to the birds who showed considerable interest. afterwards, their flight pattern was a bit "wavy".
2013-12-24 02:29 <wpwrak_> i thnk it was mainly sparrows, so a few pieces of alcohol-soaked bread already have an effect
2013-12-24 02:30 <wpwrak_> anyway, time to begin preparing my den for tomorrow's party
2013-12-24 02:40 <whitequark> "wavy", heh
2013-12-24 03:36 arielenter has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
2013-12-24 03:36 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 04:18 Luke-Jr has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
2013-12-24 04:30 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 04:57 michael_lee has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
2013-12-24 05:46 <kyak> students that 1) drink whisky 2) share whisky with birds. What were you, millionaires? :)
2013-12-24 05:47 <whitequark> switzerland
2013-12-24 06:11 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
2013-12-24 07:03 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 07:09 <nicksydney> wpwrak_: the new copper board + the blue paper pays off completely !
2013-12-24 07:09 <nicksydney> here is the result
2013-12-24 07:09 <nicksydney> http://ctrlv.in/274734
2013-12-24 07:09 <nicksydney> http://ctrlv.in/274735
2013-12-24 07:15 <nicksydney> ok time to get out of the house and enjoy day before christmas with the family....
2013-12-24 07:15 <nicksydney> wpwrak_: looks like will need to buy few stuff for etching :)..will chat with you later about that ;)
2013-12-24 07:43 Ornoterm1s is now known as Ornotermes
2013-12-24 08:09 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 08:21 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
2013-12-24 08:29 <DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak_: there are a few variants of LED formfactor: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/HSMW-CL25/516-2278-6-ND/2428177
2013-12-24 08:33 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 08:57 wolfspraul has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
2013-12-24 09:06 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 09:25 <DocScrutinizer05> or how about the smallest RGB LED? http://rohmfs.rohm.com/en/products/databook/datasheet/opto/led/chip_multi/smlp36.pdf
2013-12-24 09:26 <DocScrutinizer05> 1.5*1.0*0.2mm
2013-12-24 09:27 <DocScrutinizer05> ok, a shocking EUR1.20
2013-12-24 09:29 <DocScrutinizer05> though seems 1.0*1.0*0.25mm is 'smaller'  http://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data Sheets/Lumex PDFs/SML-LX0404SIUPGUSB.pdf
2013-12-24 09:33 porchao has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
2013-12-24 09:35 porchao has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 09:39 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
2013-12-24 10:42 <wpwrak_> nicksydney: whoo ! santa claus brought you a nice board !
2013-12-24 10:47 <wpwrak_> DocScrutinizer05: (form factor) sure. but also keep in mind sourcing. e.g., the one you showed is "Quantity Available: 0". especially if you need a every specific form factor, things get hairy very quickly
2013-12-24 10:47 <wpwrak_> DocScrutinizer05: but yes, if you can find something more convenient and with a few sources that exist in real life, why not
2013-12-24 10:48 <DocScrutinizer05> anyway, there's really awesome stuff, check out THIS! :-O   http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/OVSRWAC2R6/365-1550-1-ND/2203549
2013-12-24 10:48 <wpwrak_> btw, about LEDs: one little detail is that some have just two pads while others have one pad extend a bit into the middle. so if you try to run a trace across the LED, you may find some surprises
2013-12-24 10:49 <DocScrutinizer05> 0.08mm .oO(?!!?#@@#*§$@)
2013-12-24 10:49 <DocScrutinizer05> 2350mCd
2013-12-24 10:49 <DocScrutinizer05> WTF?!
2013-12-24 10:50 <wpwrak_> the technical term for this is "typo" :)
2013-12-24 10:50 <DocScrutinizer05> nah, check it!
2013-12-24 10:50 <wpwrak_> digi-key has lot of little errors. and others do, too. e.g., farnell thinks they have PCBs with a thickness of something like 30 um ;-)
2013-12-24 10:51 <DocScrutinizer05> is Cd teh brightness when you look at the bright spot, or the photon flux?
2013-12-24 10:51 <whitequark> they put those blue LEDs in appliances which light up your room rather bright at night
2013-12-24 10:51 <DocScrutinizer05> for the former the 0.08mm easily make for en intense but tiny bright spot at the source
2013-12-24 10:51 <whitequark> so I won't be surprised
2013-12-24 10:51 <whitequark> also whoever came up with that brilliant idea should have his eyelids cut and superbright blue LEDs glued directly to corneas
2013-12-24 10:52 <wpwrak_> mcd goes up as the angle goes down. so you always need to check the two
2013-12-24 10:52 <DocScrutinizer05> the Cd values are consistent in datasheet min max avrg and digikey
2013-12-24 10:52 <wpwrak_> but you realize that it's not 0.08 mm ?
2013-12-24 10:52 <DocScrutinizer05> it isn't?
2013-12-24 10:52 <wpwrak_> of course not. 0.8 mm. see the data sheet.
2013-12-24 10:53 <DocScrutinizer05> http://wstaw.org/m/2013/12/24/plasma-desktopOB3389.png
2013-12-24 10:53 <DocScrutinizer05> ooh
2013-12-24 10:53 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah
2013-12-24 10:53 <DocScrutinizer05> sorry
2013-12-24 10:53 <wpwrak_> and also no stock, "call for price", and so on. this is just trouble.
2013-12-24 10:54 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, seen the (CALL)
2013-12-24 10:54 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
2013-12-24 10:54 <DocScrutinizer05> not considering to get it
2013-12-24 10:55 viric has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 10:55 <wpwrak_> nicksydney: the large surfaces are amazing. very neat. you have a few broken traces, though. that may be uneven ironing. so maybe you can improve that. these' get a very fine permanent marker and draw the missing bits. the permanent marker will act as a (weak) etch resist, too
2013-12-24 10:57 <wpwrak_> nicksydney: you also have some blurring in the lower right quadrant. that's caused by too much ironing. but it's not too bad. you can just scrape off the toner between traces with a sharp knife
2013-12-24 10:58 <wpwrak_> also, if you overlook such small problems, you can fix them later by cutting through copper, by bridging small cracks with solder, and by adding wires to bridge larger gaps
2013-12-24 10:58 <wpwrak_> but the further you get in the process, the harder it is to fix things
2013-12-24 11:18 <whitequark> wpwrak_: I'd wait for it to etch... seen etchant eating/seeping through toner much more than once
2013-12-24 11:19 <wpwrak_> ah, russian toner ;-)
2013-12-24 11:19 <whitequark> http://quinndunki.com/blondihacks/?p=1486 mentions she uses two layers of toner for that
2013-12-24 11:19 <whitequark> which I guess makes sense, but even more hassle
2013-12-24 11:19 <wpwrak_> or is it the radioactive acid ? :)
2013-12-24 11:19 <whitequark> not just russian... see above
2013-12-24 11:19 <wpwrak_> naw, that's over-engineering
2013-12-24 11:20 <whitequark> I'd say the process has far too many variables to be reliably reproduced :p
2013-12-24 11:21 <whitequark> btw I bought that press-n-peel stuff, but it'll take a while for it to arrive here
2013-12-24 11:21 <whitequark> holidays and stuff
2013-12-24 11:22 <wpwrak_> yeah. just make sure your basic process is reasonable. fix the glitches. i don't usually get 100% perfect boards but it's generally not a big deal to fix the few small issues (mainly fissures in the toner that lead to broken traces)
2013-12-24 11:23 <wpwrak_> what's important is to check the traces before soldering component. nothing like having some bit chip or connectors sitting on a broken trace ...
2013-12-24 11:23 <wpwrak_> or, better, a shorted trace
2013-12-24 11:25 <wpwrak_> and for etching, one important part is to get an acid that actually works. something that takes an hour before it even notices the copper is almost guaranteed to creep into the weirdest places
2013-12-24 11:30 <wpwrak_> of course don't use 30% HCl + 30% H2O2 either :) (super-fast. etches a board clean in something like ten or twenty seconds. the acid starts to boil in the process. has a certain tendency of overlooking toner. so you get something that still resembles the original layout but won't be of any use.)
2013-12-24 11:32 <whitequark> my FeCl3 solutions took about 20-30 minutes, my (NH4)2S2O8 solutions took about 10 minutes to etch
2013-12-24 11:33 <whitequark> still creeps around toner
2013-12-24 11:33 <whitequark> to significantly varying extent
2013-12-24 11:33 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
2013-12-24 11:34 <wpwrak_> FeCl3 is just dirty
2013-12-24 11:34 <wpwrak_> dunno the other
2013-12-24 11:35 <wpwrak_> do you need to heat the ammonium ?
2013-12-24 11:35 <whitequark> naw, it's supposed to work well at room t°
2013-12-24 11:35 <wpwrak_> good. that's another nasty bit of FeCl3
2013-12-24 11:36 <whitequark> oh right, I didn't heat it, since I didn't really have appropriate equipment for it
2013-12-24 11:36 <whitequark> that explains why ammonium results were better and why FeCl3 results were bad...
2013-12-24 11:36 <wpwrak_> i wonder what kind of pervert ever thought of using FeCl3 in the first place. it basically has all the characteristics that may it as painful as possible to use.
2013-12-24 11:36 <wpwrak_> 3s/may/make/
2013-12-24 11:37 <whitequark> well, it's the most well-known and used etchant in russia
2013-12-24 11:37 <wpwrak_> yes, but why ? it just sucks
2013-12-24 11:37 <whitequark> maybe that's the reason :]
2013-12-24 11:37 <whitequark> you should feel the most pain possible no matter what you do
2013-12-24 11:38 <wpwrak_> doesn't work at room temperature, it stains, it barely transparent when new and fills up with black sludge in use, making it opaque, it's slow, disposal is a mess, and so on
2013-12-24 11:38 <whitequark> disposal? just pour it down the toilet
2013-12-24 11:38 <wpwrak_> yeah :) if you didn't have to suffer it doesn't count :)
2013-12-24 11:39 <wpwrak_> ok, russia ;-)
2013-12-24 11:39 <whitequark> oh, would it dissolve your pipes?
2013-12-24 11:40 <wpwrak_> depends on whether it can get trapped somewhere. but i was more thinking of toxidity.
2013-12-24 11:40 <wpwrak_> and of course, since it stains everything, your toilet may get a little harder to clean if you do tht regularly
2013-12-24 11:42 <whitequark> (toxicity & co) I don't think whatever amount of hobbyists purging their FeCl3 down the drain are going to produce any observable effects
2013-12-24 11:42 <whitequark> except maybe very locally, if they have that kind of sewage disposal
2013-12-24 11:43 <whitequark> Fe cations aren't exactly rare in nature either way, there's whole rivers full of that
2013-12-24 11:43 <wpwrak_> yeah, chances are it pales in comparison to whatever the factories in your area pump out
2013-12-24 11:43 <whitequark> that too
2013-12-24 11:44 <whitequark> I could understand if it was Cd or Hg or something worse, though I doubt that would be really that bad either
2013-12-24 11:44 <whitequark> Fe? *shrug*
2013-12-24 11:45 <wpwrak_> Cu
2013-12-24 11:45 <wpwrak_> fish really seem to hate it
2013-12-24 11:46 <whitequark> mhm, yes. but the amounts are still tiny. it's visible when done on scale
2013-12-24 11:51 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
2013-12-24 11:53 wej has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 12:14 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 12:40 <whitequark> I find it rather ironic that Chromebooks from the oh-so-evil Google in near future will probably be one of the safest and most open pieces of hardware
2013-12-24 12:40 <whitequark> > http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTU1MTk
2013-12-24 12:42 <whitequark> I don't think there is any other relatively modern (5yrs) Intel platform with coreboot support other than chromebooks
2013-12-24 12:43 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
2013-12-24 12:49 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 12:57 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 13:25 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
2013-12-24 13:38 <DocScrutinizer05> the issue with at least ammonia persulfate: it's rated. Possible to dual-use it ;-) Too much oxygen in there
2013-12-24 13:39 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: not here
2013-12-24 13:39 <DocScrutinizer05> I can't seem to buy it anywhere around here, without showing my ID card and a commercial Addr
2013-12-24 13:39 <whitequark> I just went to a market (not like a flea market. it's an organized, licensed group of small shops) and bought a small can
2013-12-24 13:40 <DocScrutinizer05> whitequark: in Russia you got easy access to way better explosives ;-P
2013-12-24 13:40 <DocScrutinizer05> so why rate/restrict ammonia persulfate
2013-12-24 13:40 <whitequark> well, as discussed earlier, you can't really buy HCl or KMnO4 (at all!) or other seemingly innocious substances
2013-12-24 13:41 <DocScrutinizer05> no kalium permanganate? why that?
2013-12-24 13:41 <whitequark> oxidizer, and in this case I think it can be used for making drugs
2013-12-24 13:41 <DocScrutinizer05> it's not like you need KMnO4 for explosives. You can substitute by Kalium Chlorate for example?
2013-12-24 13:41 <whitequark> it used to be a really popular disinfectant, now it's prohibited *completely*
2013-12-24 13:42 <DocScrutinizer05> OOOH drugs
2013-12-24 13:42 <DocScrutinizer05> may be
2013-12-24 13:42 <whitequark> well, "can't really buy" apparently means "go 15km behind city border to the factory with a bottle of vodka"
2013-12-24 13:42 <whitequark> literally\
2013-12-24 13:42 <whitequark> you need a bit of inside knowledge though but it's not exactly hard
2013-12-24 13:43 <whitequark> as an additional perk, you probably couldn't buy *less* than several kg of that stuff
2013-12-24 13:43 <DocScrutinizer05> It's no 4 weeks ago I read a mentioning how to synthesize KMnO4
2013-12-24 13:43 <DocScrutinizer05> possibly even by using Ammonia persulfate
2013-12-24 13:44 * DocScrutinizer05 idly wonders how to synthesize H2O2
2013-12-24 13:45 <whitequark> what for?
2013-12-24 13:46 <whitequark> also, wikipedia lists no less than four pathways
2013-12-24 13:46 <whitequark> and I bet you could find a shitload of paper with incredibly detailed descriptions
2013-12-24 13:46 <whitequark> *papers
2013-12-24 13:47 <DocScrutinizer05> just curious
2013-12-24 13:47 <DocScrutinizer05> it seems it's not THAT simple to get high percentage H2O2
2013-12-24 13:49 <whitequark> that would really depend on quantities and costs you need
2013-12-24 13:51 <DocScrutinizer05> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihydrogentrioxid
2013-12-24 13:51 <DocScrutinizer05> :-o
2013-12-24 13:52 <DocScrutinizer05> this must be nasty stuff
2013-12-24 13:52 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
2013-12-24 13:53 <whitequark> oh, neat, never heard about this before
2013-12-24 13:54 <DocScrutinizer05> well, instable like quarks
2013-12-24 13:54 <DocScrutinizer05> in water it breaks up in milliseconds
2013-12-24 13:54 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: I highly recommend this: http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2010/02/23/things_i_wont_work_with_dioxygen_difluoride.php
2013-12-24 13:56 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 13:58 Coyo has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 13:58 Coyo is now known as Guest62213
2013-12-24 14:00 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
2013-12-24 14:00 mth has quit []
2013-12-24 14:01 <whitequark> "And he's just getting warmed up, if that's the right phrase to use for something that detonates things at -180C (that's -300 Fahrenheit, if you only have a kitchen thermometer). The great majority of Streng's reactions have surely never been run again. The paper goes on to react FOOF with everything else you wouldn't react it with: ammonia ("vigorous", this at 100K), water ice (explosion, natch), chlorine ("violent explosion", so he added i
2013-12-24 14:02 <whitequark> t more slowly the second time), red  phosphorus (not good), bromine fluoride, chlorine trifluoride (say what?), perchloryl fluoride (!), tetrafluorohydrazine  (how on Earth. . .), and on, and on. If the paper weren't laid out in complete grammatical sentences and published in JACS,  you'd swear it was the work of a violent lunatic."
2013-12-24 14:03 <wpwrak_> the most remarkable thing is that he lived to write about his experiments
2013-12-24 14:03 larsc_ has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 14:03 <DocScrutinizer05> gives me a laugh :-D
2013-12-24 14:04 woakas1 has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 14:04 <DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak_: indeed
2013-12-24 14:04 <DocScrutinizer05> tetrafluorohydrazine WTF?!
2013-12-24 14:04 <whitequark> chlorine trifluoride: "It is hypergolic with every known fuel, and so rapidly hypergolic that no ignition delay has ever been measured. It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water-with which it reacts explosively."
2013-12-24 14:05 <whitequark> and he mixed it with FOOF.
2013-12-24 14:06 Guest81187 has quit [*.net *.split]
2013-12-24 14:06 larsc has quit [*.net *.split]
2013-12-24 14:06 woakas has quit [*.net *.split]
2013-12-24 14:06 <DocScrutinizer05> >>Tetrafluorohydrazine is used as a high-energy liquid oxidizer in some never flown rocket fuel formulas.<<
2013-12-24 14:07 <wpwrak_> never flown ... not even as shrapnel ?
2013-12-24 14:07 * whitequark is reading MSDS for ClF3
2013-12-24 14:07 <whitequark> "However, the dry ice bath embrittled the steel container wall, which split while it was being maneuvered onto a dolly, instantaneously releasing 907 kg (2,000 lb) of cold ClF3 liquid onto the building floor.
2013-12-24 14:08 <DocScrutinizer05> this guy should stop injecting this mix of testosterone and angel dust and speed
2013-12-24 14:08 <whitequark> that must have been fun
2013-12-24 14:09 <DocScrutinizer05> wow, the criticality events of chemical labs
2013-12-24 14:10 <whitequark> "One eyewitness described the incident by stating, “The concrete was on fire!”
2013-12-24 14:10 <DocScrutinizer05> reading such story I'm ahppy about our container station moved away from vicinity of my house
2013-12-24 14:11 <wpwrak_> if already find it sufficiently encouraging if something explosively reacts with water ice.
2013-12-24 14:11 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah
2013-12-24 14:11 <DocScrutinizer05> nicwe
2013-12-24 14:11 <DocScrutinizer05> nice even
2013-12-24 14:11 <wpwrak_> i mean the fire police already has a hard enough time with metal fires, and there's it's merey the heat splitting the water (causing hydrogen explosions)
2013-12-24 14:12 <whitequark> wpwrak_: talking about metal fires, there's this further thing about ClF3
2013-12-24 14:12 <DocScrutinizer05> they should check if it could get used for laser just like H2+F2
2013-12-24 14:12 <whitequark> normally it passivates a metal, but if you scratch it... yeah, the layer doesn't form quickly enough
2013-12-24 14:12 <whitequark> so you have to deal with a metal fire in addition to whatever else is it burning through
2013-12-24 14:13 <whitequark> basically, everything will be on fire
2013-12-24 14:13 <DocScrutinizer05> real fun
2013-12-24 14:13 <DocScrutinizer05> o.O
2013-12-24 14:13 <whitequark> LC50:  299 ppm for 1 hour rat (death due to respiratory
2013-12-24 14:13 <whitequark> failure)
2013-12-24 14:14 <wpwrak_> DocScrutinizer05: this is a fun read: http://www.lfks-th.de/de/lfks/ice/offen/BuK%20Eisenbahntunnel/pdf/brand_ice.pdf
2013-12-24 14:15 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 14:15 <whitequark> wpwrak_: that's in german and uncopyable. a summary?
2013-12-24 14:15 <wpwrak_> DocScrutinizer05: note especially: 1) the first call to the firefighters. 2) how the amount of equipment deployed upon that call corresponds to what was reported. 3) how all that relates to the what they had there in the end.
2013-12-24 14:16 <wpwrak_> whitequark: an ICE (german high-speed train) locomotive started to smoke. so they called the fire police to inspect it. they said it's just smoke, no fire.
2013-12-24 14:17 <whitequark> huh?!
2013-12-24 14:17 <wpwrak_> whitequark: fire police dispatched some five cars and 14 men. they found there was a little fire. so they tried to extinguish it ...
2013-12-24 14:19 <wpwrak_> whitequark: some five hours later, and with pretty much every firefighter of the wider area at the scene (including specialized industrial units, i think), they finally had the fire under control. it still flared up for two hours or so.
2013-12-24 14:19 <wpwrak_> basically anything they threw at it just dissolved, had no effect, or even fueled the fire
2013-12-24 14:20 <whitequark> what exactly was on fire there?
2013-12-24 14:21 <wpwrak_> ah yes, in the end a total of 55 men were deployed. don't know how many more cars. at least one special unit.
2013-12-24 14:22 <wpwrak_> it was a short-circuit that started it. not sure what burnt first. there must be some things that don't take much. then there are large transformers with oil. and then the metals.
2013-12-24 14:23 <wpwrak_> e.g., aluminium will burn if the fire is just hot enough
2013-12-24 14:30 <nicksydney> merry christmas to all
2013-12-24 14:30 <nicksydney> well it's christmas morning here by the way .. 1.30am :)
2013-12-24 14:30 <nicksydney> wpwrak_: last time you were telling me about etching using acid and something can't remember what it was
2013-12-24 14:31 <nicksydney> wpwrak_: can you refresh my memory
2013-12-24 14:31 <nicksydney> wpwrak_: oh by the way before i start etching will buy some sharpies...but seems like i will need a thin sharpie for the broken traces
2013-12-24 14:31 viric has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
2013-12-24 14:32 viric has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 14:36 <wpwrak_> nicksydney: merry x-mess ! ;-)
2013-12-24 14:38 <wpwrak_> nicksydney: muriatic acid and peroxide. cheap, easy to obtain (except when you're in russia), nice to handle (just make sure you have good ventilation, window or work outside. the chloride gas, while not harmful in that concentration can still do damage to metals if you give it enough time)
2013-12-24 14:40 <wpwrak_> (sharpies) yup. get the finest you can find. you can draw lines thinner than the tip width by not fully touching the board but it's a bit difficult. so a fine tip helps.
2013-12-24 14:41 <nicksydney> let me google muriatic and peroxide
2013-12-24 14:42 <nicksydney> this .. http://www.bunnings.com.au/-bondall-500ml-hydrochloric-acid-_p0960231 ?
2013-12-24 14:42 <wpwrak_> also, if you "fatten" a trace and you made it too fat, you can let the ink dry and then scrape some off with a knife.
2013-12-24 14:43 <wpwrak_> nicksydney: we had a loooooong discussion of the etching process. it starts here: http://irclog.whitequark.org/qi-hardware/2013-12-04#5761700
2013-12-24 14:44 <nicksydney> let me search in the irc log
2013-12-24 14:45 <wpwrak_> that 500 ml bottle looks good. 26-30%, that's a reasonable concentration
2013-12-24 14:46 <nicksydney> yes...here was the discussion http://irclog.whitequark.org/qi-hardware/2013-12-07 :)
2013-12-24 14:46 <wpwrak_> not sure what the titanium dioxide the mixed in does.
2013-12-24 14:46 <nicksydney> ok for the peroxide last time i showed you this  http://www.chemistwarehouse.com.au/product.asp?id=5439  :)
2013-12-24 14:47 <nicksydney> another $10 need to be spent tomorrow :)
2013-12-24 14:47 <wpwrak_> 3%  .. yeah, that'll do. if you can get something a little stronger, even better
2013-12-24 14:48 <nicksydney> ok last in our discussion i was still not sure about "mixing is about two parts 3-5% peroxide and one part HCl"
2013-12-24 14:48 <wpwrak_> a mix with 3% peroxide is relatively slow and can't be reused much
2013-12-24 14:49 <wpwrak_> that's the mix you use to begin. afterwards, you can reuse the acid for a very very long time (months if not years)
2013-12-24 14:50 <nicksydney> so say for example i use the measurement using the lid of this bottle http://www.chemistwarehouse.com.au/product.asp?id=5439 .. so if i want to measure that way and if i use 2 lid measurement of peroxide..how many lid measurement of the acid i must mix in ?
2013-12-24 14:50 <wpwrak_> the chemistry changes and you get a cupric acid. you need to "boost" that acid with oxygen (peroxide) and chloride (muriatic acid). so when the acid gets weak, you add some of these and it'll be strong again.
2013-12-24 14:51 <wpwrak_> not, the issue is that, the more you add, the more water gets into the mix. at some point the water will dilute things just too much. with higher concentration peroxide you add less water and thus don't dilute it so quickly.
2013-12-24 14:51 <wpwrak_> one HCl
2013-12-24 14:52 <wpwrak_> but you don't have to be super precise. just make rough guesses. when you top off the acid later on it's all guesswork anyway. it works over a wide range of mixes so unless you're walter white, just accept that things aren;t always perfect :)
2013-12-24 14:52 <wpwrak_> anyway, off to do some more shopping
2013-12-24 14:53 <nicksydney> cool...will experiment with it tomorrow
2013-12-24 15:06 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
2013-12-24 15:09 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 15:16 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 15:22 fire has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 15:23 <DocScrutinizer05> nicksydney: just make DAMN SURE not to bring close to etching bath *any* solvents like acetone or other hydrocarbon stuff or liquids or objects that might contain such solvents
2013-12-24 15:24 <nicksydney> DocScrutinizer05: ok sure...will be doing it in the garden away from all things
2013-12-24 15:25 <DocScrutinizer05> particularly nasty since acetone is a prominent solvent to remove toner etc from the PCB
2013-12-24 15:25 <nicksydney> cool
2013-12-24 15:26 <DocScrutinizer05> you don't want acetone peroxide (apex) to build up in your etching bath
2013-12-24 15:39 <wpwrak_> could that even happen in the bath ?
2013-12-24 15:39 <wpwrak_> the peroxide is very diluted anyway
2013-12-24 15:40 <DocScrutinizer05> yes
2013-12-24 15:40 <wpwrak_> should try that once, then. something to scare the dogs in the neighbourhood with ;-)
2013-12-24 15:40 <DocScrutinizer05> apex - the devil's granma
2013-12-24 15:43 <DocScrutinizer05> one of the rules set into granite of chemical labs: never bring acetone and H2O2 next to each other
2013-12-24 15:44 <DocScrutinizer05> no matter which concentration or how good the glas tube separating those two components
2013-12-24 15:45 <DocScrutinizer05> it's the same class of rule like "never oil oxygen bottle threads"
2013-12-24 15:45 <DocScrutinizer05> or "never pour water into acid"
2013-12-24 15:47 <DocScrutinizer05> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone_peroxide
2013-12-24 15:56 <lekernel> how dangerous would be those small amounts, though?
2013-12-24 15:59 <DocScrutinizer05> well, when the hydrocloric acid explodes right into your face, you won't ask if it been 0.1 or 10g of apex that caused it
2013-12-24 15:59 <DocScrutinizer05> though I just read copper(ii) salts can stop the creation of acetone peroxides
2013-12-24 15:59 <DocScrutinizer05> :-)
2013-12-24 16:00 <DocScrutinizer05> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone_peroxide#Industrial_occurrence
2013-12-24 16:04 <DocScrutinizer05> lekernel: the amount will depend on how much acetone you add to the etching bath
2013-12-24 16:05 <DocScrutinizer05> and 10g of acetone peroxide are for sure no joke to handle
2013-12-24 16:05 <DocScrutinizer05> it's about as potent as nitro
2013-12-24 16:13 fire has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1]
2013-12-24 16:20 dandon has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 16:52 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 19:31 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
2013-12-24 19:43 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 19:45 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 20:56 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
2013-12-24 21:03 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 21:05 arielenter has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
2013-12-24 21:18 kristianpaul has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
2013-12-24 21:40 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 21:40 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 22:02 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 22:05 jurting has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 22:13 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
2013-12-24 22:18 viric has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 22:22 wej has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 22:43 viric_ has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 22:46 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
2013-12-24 22:46 viric_ is now known as viric
2013-12-24 22:53 rz2k has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
2013-12-24 22:54 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
2013-12-24 22:59 viric has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 23:12 Jay7 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
2013-12-24 23:28 lekernel has quit [Quit: Leaving]
2013-12-24 23:29 Jay7 has joined #qi-hardware
2013-12-24 23:38 jurting has quit [Remote host closed the connection]