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2013-12-23 01:19 <nicksydney> wpwrak: got delivery of the new copper board i ordered...will test with that today :)
2013-12-23 01:25 <wpwrak> nice. new toys for xmas ;-)
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2013-12-23 02:35 <nicksydney> wpwrak: very much :)
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2013-12-23 02:36 <nicksydney> wpwrak: got few stuff for my son also to play with
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2013-12-23 02:45 <wpwrak> that's a clever way to hide things. son gets the train set but it's daddy who plays with it until dawn :)
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2013-12-23 08:58 <apelete> good morning
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2013-12-23 10:18 <DocScrutinizer05> morning
2013-12-23 10:19 <DocScrutinizer05> hey hardware hackers, and comment on my idea as sketched in http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1399859#post1399859 ?
2013-12-23 10:20 <DocScrutinizer05> (basically about having the cut edge of a PCB gold plated and using it for contacts. With LEDs embedded in between the contact pads, separating them)
2013-12-23 10:22 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: an image is worth a thousand words...
2013-12-23 10:23 <DocScrutinizer05> and how do you think I could create such an image?
2013-12-23 10:23 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm not a gifted painting artist
2013-12-23 10:24 <whitequark> well, I bet you can draw that on paper, rougly. you're an engineer after all :p
2013-12-23 10:24 <whitequark> do the same in gimp
2013-12-23 10:24 <whitequark> s/draw/sketch/
2013-12-23 10:25 <DocScrutinizer05> actually I hardly can do that
2013-12-23 10:25 <whitequark> then, do you understand your own idea?
2013-12-23 10:26 <whitequark> not meant to be offensive or something
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2013-12-23 10:26 <DocScrutinizer05> sure
2013-12-23 10:27 <DocScrutinizer05> but do you understand it? it seems it's not that complex to understand
2013-12-23 10:28 <whitequark> I'm not, that's why I asked for a picture
2013-12-23 10:28 <whitequark> it would probably be easier if I was immersed in your project fully
2013-12-23 10:29 <DocScrutinizer05> that's not at all related to any project. The idea is simply to have the cut edge of the PCB plated by gold (pretty usual thing)
2013-12-23 10:29 <whitequark> oh so only the lowest reply in the message is related
2013-12-23 10:29 <whitequark> is it?
2013-12-23 10:30 <DocScrutinizer05> reply?
2013-12-23 10:30 <whitequark> comment
2013-12-23 10:31 <DocScrutinizer05> http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1399859#post1399859 Kommentar 10  since #9 is about exposing the PCB edge to the world, not covering it inside the plastic case
2013-12-23 10:32 <whitequark> ok, whether it's lack of sleep, context or intelligence, but I've lost you
2013-12-23 10:33 <DocScrutinizer05> o.O
2013-12-23 10:33 <DocScrutinizer05> I asked if any comments about having edge of a PCB gold plated and using it for contacts on outside of a device
2013-12-23 10:34 <DocScrutinizer05> I can't think how to put it any clearer
2013-12-23 10:34 <whitequark> ok, it's clear now
2013-12-23 10:35 <whitequark> though I'm not quite sure how exactly do you intend to use LEDs
2013-12-23 10:36 <DocScrutinizer05> I plan to have resections/bays in the outer edge of the PCB where I embedd the LEDs pointing away from PCB in plane of PCB
2013-12-23 10:37 <DocScrutinizer05> the LED is ~ 0.8mm*0.8mm*1.2mm
2013-12-23 10:37 <DocScrutinizer05> the PCB is 0.8mm high
2013-12-23 10:38 <DocScrutinizer05> you cut out a rectangle of 0.8*1.2mm from edge of PCB end embedd the LED there, so LED's shining surface is flush with the edge of PCB
2013-12-23 10:40 <whitequark> what would you have that LED there for?
2013-12-23 10:41 <DocScrutinizer05> for a lot of funny things
2013-12-23 10:41 <DocScrutinizer05> and simply for design reasons
2013-12-23 10:41 <DocScrutinizer05> much like http://wstaw.org/m/2013/12/23/plasma-desktopLW3389.png this switch got embedded
2013-12-23 10:42 <whitequark> right
2013-12-23 10:43 <DocScrutinizer05> http://wstaw.org/m/2013/12/23/plasma-desktopxY3389.png in this bay
2013-12-23 10:43 <wpwrak> LED "height" is really LED "width" ?
2013-12-23 10:43 <DocScrutinizer05> though the LED has the same "thickness" like the PCB
2013-12-23 10:43 <DocScrutinizer05> no, the height is probably smaller
2013-12-23 10:44 <wpwrak> i.e., the LEDs would be soldered on the side of the PCB ? and the PCB is 0.8 mm and the LEDs have a width of exactly 0.8 mm, too ?
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2013-12-23 10:44 <DocScrutinizer05> ok, so when LED is 1.2*0.8*0.4, then the bay is 1.2*0.4 in a PCB of 0.8 thinkness
2013-12-23 10:44 <DocScrutinizer05> yes
2013-12-23 10:45 <wpwrak> mmh, you need some tolerances, already for the cutting
2013-12-23 10:45 <DocScrutinizer05> sure
2013-12-23 10:45 <DocScrutinizer05> also for solder etc
2013-12-23 10:46 <wpwrak> and soldering will of course be fun. i guess you're looking forward to that already :)
2013-12-23 10:46 <DocScrutinizer05> yep, sure
2013-12-23 10:46 <DocScrutinizer05> ;-)
2013-12-23 10:46 <wpwrak> is it a problem if the LED sticks out by, say, 0.2 mm at the top or bottom of the PCB ?
2013-12-23 10:47 <DocScrutinizer05> yes
2013-12-23 10:47 <DocScrutinizer05> well, we *could* handle that
2013-12-23 10:47 <wpwrak> then i wouldn't put these leds. else you'll have the mother of all fights getting them there with superhuman precision
2013-12-23 10:48 <whitequark> technically those machines already have superhuman precision...
2013-12-23 10:48 <DocScrutinizer05> don't see that. When the PCB sits flush on a bench then the LEDs sit flush in the PCB
2013-12-23 10:49 <DocScrutinizer05> generally we need component positioning/placing with sub-0.1mm precision anyway
2013-12-23 10:49 <wpwrak> whitequark: do you have a machine that will solder LEDs on the side (!) of a PCB ? i see nimble chinese hands ...
2013-12-23 10:50 <whitequark> hm, yes, that's an interesting question
2013-12-23 10:50 <DocScrutinizer05> and given the mech design the LEDs will auto-center easily
2013-12-23 10:50 <wpwrak> except in the Z axis :)
2013-12-23 10:51 <DocScrutinizer05> solder surface tnetion will do the trick
2013-12-23 10:51 <DocScrutinizer05> huh, why not in Z axis?
2013-12-23 10:51 <wpwrak> naw, the LEDs sounds like a production nightmare in the making. you could design them in and see how it goes. but i'd expect you to run out of patience with them quickly. especially since you require very high precision.
2013-12-23 10:52 <wpwrak> alterntively, see if you can get LEDs that are less than 0.8 mm.
2013-12-23 10:52 <DocScrutinizer05> the precision is immanent in the PCB design
2013-12-23 10:52 <DocScrutinizer05> no way
2013-12-23 10:53 <DocScrutinizer05> they need to have height of PCB or we will not get a proper closed outer surface
2013-12-23 10:53 <wpwrak> 0.5 and 0.6 mm exist
2013-12-23 10:53 <DocScrutinizer05> don't care
2013-12-23 10:54 <DocScrutinizer05> the NEED exactly same height as PCB is thick
2013-12-23 10:54 <wpwrak> (closed surface) why not ? and who cares ? would the LEDs also bear mechanical load ?
2013-12-23 10:54 <DocScrutinizer05> huh? it's the outer surface of the device
2013-12-23 10:54 <wpwrak> the PCB sticks out of the case ?
2013-12-23 10:55 <DocScrutinizer05> no, it doesn't stick out, it is fliush with outer surface
2013-12-23 10:55 <wpwrak> still, that's pretty unusual. well, calculate some 0.1 mm tolerances there
2013-12-23 10:55 <DocScrutinizer05> nah
2013-12-23 10:56 <DocScrutinizer05> 0.1mm is a damn lot
2013-12-23 10:56 <wpwrak> 0.1 mm aren't a big deal. the case will still seem smooth. and especially if you have contacts there
2013-12-23 10:56 <wpwrak> of course you'll also have to ESD-protect them, etc.
2013-12-23 10:56 <DocScrutinizer05> yes
2013-12-23 10:57 <DocScrutinizer05> but I don't want LEDs stick out a 0.1mm from our case surface
2013-12-23 10:57 <wpwrak> no, i mean in the LED's XY plane, which would be the PCB's XZ or YZ plane.
2013-12-23 10:58 <wpwrak> you should in fact recess them a little. else, of something flexible slides past, it will catch on the LEDs
2013-12-23 10:58 <DocScrutinizer05> I rather have a 0.1mm gap on the "bottom" side of the LED to the contacts on the PCB edge, and fill that with solder
2013-12-23 10:58 <wpwrak> and you have two big holes on the sides of the LEDs anyway
2013-12-23 10:58 <DocScrutinizer05> o.O
2013-12-23 10:58 <DocScrutinizer05> no way
2013-12-23 10:59 <DocScrutinizer05> i rather plan to have the bay in PCB to fit on pressing
2013-12-23 10:59 <wpwrak> do you want to make the PCB go "around" the LED ? in a 0.3 mm space ? no way :)
2013-12-23 10:59 <DocScrutinizer05> huh?
2013-12-23 11:00 <wpwrak> maybe you really should draw it :) from what i understand, you plan to mount regular top-facing LEDs on the side of the PCB. and it seems that this won't be very nice
2013-12-23 11:01 <DocScrutinizer05> I think it is very nice and beautiful
2013-12-23 11:01 <wpwrak> maybe if you try to draw it, you'll notice some problems yourself. i often do :)
2013-12-23 11:01 <DocScrutinizer05> I don't need a drawing
2013-12-23 11:01 <DocScrutinizer05> I see it in front of my inner eye to the last atom
2013-12-23 11:02 <DocScrutinizer05> and I think our PCB manuf can cut PCB to a 0.01mm precision
2013-12-23 11:03 <wpwrak> okay, you see something beautiful that is easy to make. i - and i think whitequark too - see something a bit ragged that will be a QA PITA :)
2013-12-23 11:03 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, just like the switches we need to use anyway
2013-12-23 11:04 <wpwrak> and if i understand the design correctly, you couldn't just omit the LEDs if they don't work out, because you'd then have a hole in the device's outside, right ?
2013-12-23 11:05 <DocScrutinizer05> I again sense this "we can't use this object since it can't get mounted to the wall using a hammer. You need to *turn* it in!" concerns
2013-12-23 11:05 <wpwrak> switches go into case openings. so there is usually a bit of wiggle room. but yes, i hate them. too bloddy big, expensive, messy.
2013-12-23 11:06 <wpwrak> i think you really should make a drawing. top view, side view. nothing fancy 3D.
2013-12-23 11:07 <DocScrutinizer05> there is zero "wiggle room" for the switches mounted like http://wstaw.org/m/2013/12/23/plasma-desktopLW3389.png into http://wstaw.org/m/2013/12/23/plasma-desktopxY3389.png
2013-12-23 11:08 <wpwrak> there is ALWAYS wiggle room ;-) are you an engineer or a theoretical mathematician ? ;-) (a joke in german, from a mathematician: "As gibt zwei Zweige der Mathematik, die angewandte Mathematik und die abgewandte Mathematik.")
2013-12-23 11:09 <DocScrutinizer05> our switches are ~0.2mm too high ATM
2013-12-23 11:10 <DocScrutinizer05> which already defeats their proper operation
2013-12-23 11:10 <wpwrak> ah, dremel time ?
2013-12-23 11:10 <DocScrutinizer05> huh? we're talking PCB layout here, not DIY
2013-12-23 11:11 <wpwrak> i mean if they're too high, the bump into something, right ? so you'd have to make room.
2013-12-23 11:11 <DocScrutinizer05> and no, you can't dremel anything here, except maybe the switch's moving part
2013-12-23 11:12 <DocScrutinizer05> since when you dremel the PCB you remove the soldering pads at edge of PCB that the switch is soldered to
2013-12-23 11:13 <wpwrak> no no, i don't mean dremel'ing the PCB. that would be silly. well, unless you tweak a prototype. then anything goes.
2013-12-23 11:13 <DocScrutinizer05> no, THIS doesn't
2013-12-23 11:13 <wpwrak> i mean that "too high" would suggest a conflict with something else.
2013-12-23 11:14 <DocScrutinizer05> http://projects.goldelico.com/p/neo900/issues/518/#ic1580 *2
2013-12-23 11:15 <DocScrutinizer05> http://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/20131223_009.jpg
2013-12-23 11:15 <DocScrutinizer05> see the gap between the two halfmoon shaped things in center?
2013-12-23 11:16 <wpwrak> you mean the switches ?
2013-12-23 11:17 <DocScrutinizer05> that's the operation pushdown our switches already operate on, and it mustn't be there
2013-12-23 11:17 <DocScrutinizer05> I mean the thing in the center
2013-12-23 11:17 <DocScrutinizer05> in the middle between the two switches
2013-12-23 11:17 <wpwrak> that looks like an axis
2013-12-23 11:17 <DocScrutinizer05> yes
2013-12-23 11:17 <DocScrutinizer05> and the rocker hoovers ~0.2mm above that axis
2013-12-23 11:18 <wpwrak> ah, so there should be no gap between the plastic and the PCB (at the axis)
2013-12-23 11:19 <DocScrutinizer05> gap starts at top of http://wstaw.org/m/2013/12/23/plasma-desktopCz3389.png
2013-12-23 11:19 <wpwrak> well, or filter out the incorrect use by software: buffer rocker input by T, then check if both are activated. if yes, cancel the volume up/down event(s) in the buffer.
2013-12-23 11:20 <DocScrutinizer05> the upper thing with concave D is the rocker, the huge thing in center is the axis
2013-12-23 11:20 <wpwrak> (gap) ah, i see
2013-12-23 11:20 <DocScrutinizer05> between both there's a gap of ~0.2mm
2013-12-23 11:21 <DocScrutinizer05> thus when you push on middle/center of the volume rocker, *both* switches operate
2013-12-23 11:21 <wpwrak> so it seems that you can't change that. welcome, software solution :)
2013-12-23 11:21 <DocScrutinizer05> nonsense
2013-12-23 11:21 <DocScrutinizer05> how am I supposed to not be able to change that?
2013-12-23 11:21 <wpwrak> isn;t the rocker switch a single mechanical unit ?
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2013-12-23 11:21 <DocScrutinizer05> again, we are talking PCB prototyping here
2013-12-23 11:22 <DocScrutinizer05> next prototype, the switches sit 0.2mm deeper
2013-12-23 11:22 <DocScrutinizer05> into the PCB
2013-12-23 11:22 <wpwrak> so it isn't a single item then
2013-12-23 11:23 <DocScrutinizer05> this is PROTOTYPING for Neo900
2013-12-23 11:23 <wpwrak> relax :)
2013-12-23 11:24 <DocScrutinizer05> isn't exiting/upsetting me what you aim at?
2013-12-23 11:24 <wpwrak> your descriptions are particularly difficult to understand today. maybe it's time for that weekly hour of sleep ? :)
2013-12-23 11:24 <wpwrak> naw, i'm struggling with comprehending what exactly you're describing
2013-12-23 11:24 <DocScrutinizer05> nah, had ~20 in the last 30
2013-12-23 11:25 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm describing existing problems of Neo900 first mech prototype PCB, and ideas for the final product
2013-12-23 11:27 <wpwrak> yes yes, the high-level view is clear. it's the details where things get fuzzy. and alas, the details matter, especially when it comes to mechanical things.
2013-12-23 11:27 <DocScrutinizer05> and I think we can embed LEDs with about same precision we need for those switches
2013-12-23 11:27 <DocScrutinizer05> so I don't see why I have to make LEDs protrude a 0.1mm when we can do better anyway
2013-12-23 11:28 <DocScrutinizer05> we even MUST do better
2013-12-23 11:28 <DocScrutinizer05> e.g. for switches
2013-12-23 11:28 <DocScrutinizer05> witch are mounted quite similar to the way I want to mount those LEDs
2013-12-23 11:29 <wpwrak> what kind of LED do you intend to use ? not the normal T-shaped one, i suppose ?
2013-12-23 11:29 <DocScrutinizer05> 0.2mm is about as much you press down a button to make the switch operate
2013-12-23 11:30 <DocScrutinizer05> I never seen T-shaped LEDs
2013-12-23 11:30 <DocScrutinizer05> normal 0804 or 1206 or whatever
2013-12-23 11:31 <wpwrak> T-shaped in the XZ plane
2013-12-23 11:32 <wpwrak> like these: http://media.digikey.com/photos/Lite%20On%20Photos/LTST-C190KGKT,LTST-C190KRKT,LTST-C190KSKT,LTST-C190KYKT.jpg
2013-12-23 11:32 <DocScrutinizer05> when they need to be 0.8mm wide then it's pretty easy to determine the oh-x-oh-y SMD package, though i'm lazy now
2013-12-23 11:32 <DocScrutinizer05> My LEDs look like a brick
2013-12-23 11:32 <wpwrak> they are 0.8 mm wide
2013-12-23 11:32 <wpwrak> aha !
2013-12-23 11:34 <DocScrutinizer05> well, maybe they have "feet" but that's not any problem since such feet can go into holes in the corners of the bay
2013-12-23 11:34 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, actually they may look like the photo you have there
2013-12-23 11:35 <DocScrutinizer05> excellent, since then we can push them in to fit from inside to outside (or from bottom, relative to the LED), thanks to the slightly conical shape
2013-12-23 11:36 <wpwrak> it's those feet that i'm worried about. you have only about 0.5 mm between top surface of the LED and the top of the feet. that means you need a very narrow cut of the PCB and you end up with a fragile structure there
2013-12-23 11:36 <wpwrak> yes, if you can get it to work, it would hold them in place rather well
2013-12-23 11:36 <DocScrutinizer05> how's that structure "fragile"?
2013-12-23 11:36 <DocScrutinizer05> it's not only 0.5mm high, it's also just 0.3mm wide
2013-12-23 11:37 <DocScrutinizer05> again, see http://wstaw.org/m/2013/12/23/plasma-desktopxY3389.png
2013-12-23 11:37 <wpwrak> it's quite small and it's on the outside, exposed to mechanical forces.
2013-12-23 11:38 <wpwrak> what's the radius of these dogbones ?
2013-12-23 11:39 <DocScrutinizer05> it's not worse mechanical than any arbitrary 90° corner of a PCB
2013-12-23 11:39 <wpwrak> that looks like the mill diameter
2013-12-23 11:40 <wpwrak> hmm, not sure if you're familiar with dogbones: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/
2013-12-23 11:40 <wpwrak> if you want to make a "bay" into which something with "sharp" corners fits, you have to make a dent because the mill can only make round inner corners
2013-12-23 11:41 <wpwrak> that's what you see in this picture
2013-12-23 11:41 <wpwrak> so you can't make things arbitrarily small in this sort of concave structures
2013-12-23 11:42 <DocScrutinizer05> we'll see
2013-12-23 11:42 <wpwrak> if things are convex, you can make your corners as pointy as you like, no problem
2013-12-23 11:42 <DocScrutinizer05> I don't care how round the concave corners get, we simply make them wide enough
2013-12-23 11:43 <wpwrak> yes, but that also means that the remaining material gets thinner and more fragile
2013-12-23 11:44 <DocScrutinizer05> after all, the whole structure doesn't have to be exceptionally rugged anyway, since the surface is flusg and plain and inly 0.8mm high
2013-12-23 11:44 <wpwrak> also, a mill has usually a depth to diameter ratio of about 2:1. so for your 0.8 mm PCB it would be about 0.4 mm
2013-12-23 11:44 <DocScrutinizer05> flsuh* even
2013-12-23 11:44 <DocScrutinizer05> meh
2013-12-23 11:45 <DocScrutinizer05> anyway, thanks for sparring
2013-12-23 11:45 <wpwrak> heh, always fun :)
2013-12-23 11:45 <DocScrutinizer05> seems those LEDs have contact pads on upper side of their 'feet', eh?
2013-12-23 11:46 <wpwrak> the gold goes around, yes. so you could solder on both sides
2013-12-23 11:46 <DocScrutinizer05> fine
2013-12-23 11:46 <wpwrak> they're not intended for upside-down mounting, though, because of mechanical tolerances
2013-12-23 11:46 <DocScrutinizer05> mount them "from below2 then
2013-12-23 11:47 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm, good point
2013-12-23 11:47 <wpwrak> the ones for upside-down have larger legs
2013-12-23 11:47 <DocScrutinizer05> know what, maybe I use lightguide plastic and mount the leds 'remote'
2013-12-23 11:48 <wpwrak> and they recommend HUGE holes in the PCB for them. but that may in part also anticipate those dogbones (since a hole is a concave cut, you get them here as well)
2013-12-23 11:48 <wpwrak> that sounds like a good idea
2013-12-23 11:48 <wpwrak> more work, but also a lot more flexibility
2013-12-23 11:48 <DocScrutinizer05> :nod:
2013-12-23 11:49 <DocScrutinizer05> with a bit of nifty thinking we ight be able to abuse the PCB as lightguide
2013-12-23 11:49 <wpwrak> heh :)
2013-12-23 11:49 <wpwrak> install a side-facing LED upside-down ? ;-)
2013-12-23 11:49 <DocScrutinizer05> though, that would drastically reduce efficiency
2013-12-23 11:50 <wpwrak> they may not like you at the SMT fab when you come with that idea ;-)
2013-12-23 11:50 <wpwrak> what kind of distance between LED and PCB edge do you have in mind ?
2013-12-23 11:50 <DocScrutinizer05> heh, told you about that embedded-components PCB technoligy lately ;-)
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2013-12-23 11:52 <wpwrak> still sounds scary :)
2013-12-23 11:59 <DocScrutinizer05> you know what's scary? the damn LEDs that emit sideways to illuminate the kbd domesheet lightguide
2013-12-23 11:59 <wpwrak> why are they scary ? just because they face sideways ? or do they have other odd properties ?
2013-12-23 12:00 <DocScrutinizer05> 0.6mm high (guess)
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2013-12-23 12:00 <DocScrutinizer05> maybe less
2013-12-23 12:03 <wpwrak> that's the LED to PCB edge distance (i.e., the "light guide") ?
2013-12-23 12:03 <DocScrutinizer05> http://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/20131223_013.jpg
2013-12-23 12:04 <DocScrutinizer05> http://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/20131223_014.jpg
2013-12-23 12:06 <DocScrutinizer05> sorry for dust on lens
2013-12-23 12:06 <wpwrak> soldering looks a little strange. well, side-facing leds are nothing new. we even had them in openmoko :)
2013-12-23 12:06 <DocScrutinizer05> not these critters
2013-12-23 12:07 <wpwrak> btw, what kind of camera do you use ?
2013-12-23 12:08 <wpwrak> (leds) no, the openmoko ones had a different shape
2013-12-23 12:08 <DocScrutinizer05> 1.8mm long
2013-12-23 12:08 <DocScrutinizer05> 1mm wide
2013-12-23 12:09 <DocScrutinizer05> 0.4mm high??
2013-12-23 12:10 <DocScrutinizer05> err, 0.4mm is the domesheet you see next to the LED in the second picture
2013-12-23 12:10 <DocScrutinizer05> *incl* the silver foil and two protective films
2013-12-23 12:11 <DocScrutinizer05> so the LED might be 0.3mm
2013-12-23 12:11 <wpwrak> wow, very flat
2013-12-23 12:12 <DocScrutinizer05> yep
2013-12-23 12:12 <DocScrutinizer05> I wonder what we shall use for those
2013-12-23 12:16 <wpwrak> btw, you may want to invest some of that neo900 money into getting a better camera. you n900 camera seems quite good for a phone cam, but the graininess and what looks like artefacts are pretty bad in those close-ups.
2013-12-23 12:16 <wpwrak> for comparison, some LEDs snapped with my canon powershot SD880 IS: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/closeup-sd880is.jpg
2013-12-23 12:19 <wpwrak> that's not a very fancy camera but it has good macro capabilities
2013-12-23 12:19 <DocScrutinizer05> I can't convince users or Nikolaus to get me a camera for Neo900 snapshots
2013-12-23 12:19 <wpwrak> of course, now you'd have to get a model some 4 generations newer :)
2013-12-23 12:20 <DocScrutinizer05> well, maybe the crappy shots at http://projects.goldelico.com/p/neo900/issues/541/ help ;-P
2013-12-23 12:20 <wpwrak> hehe ;-)
2013-12-23 12:20 <DocScrutinizer05> artifacts are due to max digital zoom
2013-12-23 12:21 <DocScrutinizer05> no other way to get a semi-decent shot of that small component details
2013-12-23 12:21 <wpwrak> well, ask them: you do want THIS in the future, or would you rather have THAT ? :)
2013-12-23 12:21 <wpwrak> well, look at my picture. that's without digital zoom.
2013-12-23 12:21 <DocScrutinizer05> nah, i need to sort that on a more radical level
2013-12-23 12:21 <DocScrutinizer05> project management has to move to me
2013-12-23 12:21 <wpwrak> hehe :)
2013-12-23 12:22 <wpwrak> well, it can have advantages if someone else takes care of the paperwork
2013-12-23 12:22 <DocScrutinizer05> about to get stuff sorted to set up a business/company/UG/GmbH
2013-12-23 12:22 <wpwrak> but he should understand that you need decent tools to do your work
2013-12-23 12:22 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, that's the problem, I can't do paperwork (not even draw) ;-D
2013-12-23 12:22 <wpwrak> and especially in this kind of project good pictures are important. also for the community.
2013-12-23 12:23 <DocScrutinizer05> good schematics are also essential
2013-12-23 12:23 <DocScrutinizer05> :-S
2013-12-23 12:23 <wpwrak> kinda, yes :)
2013-12-23 12:23 <DocScrutinizer05> not something where you don't find signals among all GND and VDD lines
2013-12-23 12:24 <wpwrak> hmm, don't draw so many GND and VDD lines ?
2013-12-23 12:24 <DocScrutinizer05> that's the problem, I'm not _allowed_ to draw anything (at least not based on GolDeliCo eagle schematics)
2013-12-23 12:24 <wpwrak> hmm ?
2013-12-23 12:25 <DocScrutinizer05> Nikolaus defines my tasks a tad different
2013-12-23 12:26 <DocScrutinizer05> one project one project file one editor/developer
2013-12-23 12:26 <DocScrutinizer05> and that's him
2013-12-23 12:26 <DocScrutinizer05> when I want changes in anything, i please send sketches (you know i hate sketching on paper) or better yet lyrics
2013-12-23 12:27 <wpwrak> that may not be the smartest division of work ...
2013-12-23 12:27 <wpwrak> maybe he wants you do get better at sketching ;-)))
2013-12-23 12:27 <wpwrak> #s/do/to/
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2013-12-23 12:29 <DocScrutinizer05> and my argument that my schematics review and debugging skills get stifled by the schematics style... well, i'm basically not supposed to review schematics
2013-12-23 12:29 <DocScrutinizer05> o.O
2013-12-23 12:31 <DocScrutinizer05> particularly since i'd possibly need a professional license for Eagle eventually, to do that. And (here he's right) Eagle doesn't really support concurrent edits
2013-12-23 12:33 <DocScrutinizer05> but then, he plans to have some 2 weeks holiday now afaik. I could completely redraw the schematics in that time and no concurrent editing would happen. But he doesn't like to even consider such approach, probably he likes his own style too much
2013-12-23 12:33 <wpwrak> in gta02-core several people worked on the schematics. (kicad, but it doesn't know about concurrent edits either) wasn't a big deal. you just need to communicate a bit.
2013-12-23 12:33 <wpwrak> (2 weeks of revolution) pity
2013-12-23 12:33 <DocScrutinizer05> maybe kicad differs here
2013-12-23 12:34 <wpwrak> we checked everything into SVN (now it would be git)
2013-12-23 12:34 <DocScrutinizer05> won't fly for eagle
2013-12-23 12:34 <wpwrak> if you planned to work on some sheet, you told the others on IRC
2013-12-23 12:35 <DocScrutinizer05> you can't work on a single sheet of a project, in eagle
2013-12-23 12:35 <DocScrutinizer05> when the project is multisheet
2013-12-23 12:35 <wpwrak> ah, one file to rule them all ?
2013-12-23 12:35 <DocScrutinizer05> yep
2013-12-23 12:35 <wpwrak> that sucks
2013-12-23 12:35 <DocScrutinizer05> one .brd and one .shm
2013-12-23 12:35 <wpwrak> in kicad each sheet is a separate file
2013-12-23 12:36 <DocScrutinizer05> and forward/back annotation between the two
2013-12-23 12:36 <wpwrak> boards are just one file, though. but i guess for boards you don't want to parallelize too much anyway.
2013-12-23 12:36 <DocScrutinizer05> and of course ERC/DRC across all sheets and the board
2013-12-23 12:38 <wpwrak> in kicad i always use a forward flow. i think it has some backannotation but i'm not even sure what it actually does.
2013-12-23 12:45 <DocScrutinizer05> well, basically first thing you want is to click a component in one notation and see it highlighted in the other notation
2013-12-23 12:45 <DocScrutinizer05> sucks to search for N1140 on board
2013-12-23 12:45 <DocScrutinizer05> when you spitted something about N1140 to check, while reading schem
2013-12-23 12:46 <DocScrutinizer05> spotted even
2013-12-23 12:49 <DocScrutinizer05> no matter what, maemo users donated to that project just because they know *me* and my EE background, and because of me telling them I will check the device for any bugs to make sure it works before we ship. So Eagle and proofreading is mandatory
2013-12-23 12:51 <DocScrutinizer05> and I won't content with anything less in quality than the GTA02 schematics, when it comes to publishing those
2013-12-23 12:52 <DocScrutinizer05> which already gives me headache, since in eagle it's obviously impossible to have proper searchable strings in a pdf printout
2013-12-23 12:52 <DocScrutinizer05> not to talk about component placement, but well, we didn't manage that with PADS either
2013-12-23 12:53 <DocScrutinizer05> Eagle schematics are quality like PADS component placement printouts
2013-12-23 12:54 <DocScrutinizer05> seems everything is just bitmap in pdf
2013-12-23 13:11 <wpwrak> (highlight in both) kicad does that. alas, at least in the version i have, there's a bug, so it sometimes hangs when both schematics and pcb are open at the same time. should check if they've fixed it since ...
2013-12-23 13:12 <wpwrak> (you're having edit rights) yes, doesn't make sense to make you go through nikolaus. that's weird.
2013-12-23 13:19 <wpwrak> ah, my camera has an image stabilizer. didn't even know that :) now i understand why pictures with very long exposure look implausibly good ;-)
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2013-12-23 17:58 <ysionneau> w/win 47
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2013-12-23 18:24 <kristianpaul> hmm i tought there will be instrucions to flash nanonote from owrt, but they point to qi wiki
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2013-12-23 22:53 <wpwrak_> DocScrutinizer05: btw, if shopping for a camera, this one looks like a nice choice: similar characteristics as mine but slightly higher resolution, you can get as close as 1 cm (mine: 2 cm), quite good light sensitivity, and also a nice display. also, it's dirt cheap for al it can do.
2013-12-23 22:53 <wpwrak_> http://www.steves-digicams.com/camera-reviews/canon/powershot-elph-330-hs/canon-powershot-elph-330-hs-review.html
2013-12-23 22:53 <wpwrak_> in .eu it's called IXUS 255 HS
2013-12-23 22:54 <wpwrak_> it doesn't have a lot of manual controls but there's always CHDK .. :)
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2013-12-23 23:13 <nickoe> wpwrak_: adding the "allow holes" after the "unit mm" will make fped segfault.
2013-12-23 23:18 <wpwrak_> are you using the latest version from git ? could be that it didn't work in the past
2013-12-23 23:24 <wpwrak_> at least the example you posted yesterday or so worked with "allow holes"
2013-12-23 23:26 <wpwrak_> ah, and fped can sometimes crash. there's a weird bug *somewhere* that's really good hiding from me. it's somehow connected to deleting things. so save often.
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2013-12-23 23:41 <nickoe> wpwrak_: I am on 23a3348
2013-12-23 23:41 <nickoe> (it says so in the window title)
2013-12-23 23:42 <nickoe> not exactly the latest, rebuilding
2013-12-23 23:43 <nickoe> newest seem to not sfault
2013-12-23 23:44 <wpwrak_> yes ! victory ! :)
2013-12-23 23:46 <wpwrak_> 23a3348 was loong before "allow holes". interesting that it crashed, though
2013-12-23 23:48 <wpwrak_> syntax error handling seems to be fine, though
2013-12-23 23:52 <nickoe> wpwrak_: works now it seems