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2013-12-19 00:29 <DocScrutinizer05> hey, whren you're all happy with fped and kicad, doesn't any of you have a surplus eagle license.txt file for me, that enables 16layer PCB multi-sheet-schematics layout and routing ?
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2013-12-19 00:32 <DocScrutinizer05> tracing down the stuff with gdb/strace to patch out the limitations seems annoying ;-) And right ATM I'm still not earning any money with eagle, so can't afford the 1800 bucks
2013-12-19 00:34 <wpwrak> 16 layers ? a lot of power and ground planes ?
2013-12-19 00:36 <wpwrak> (1.8 kbucks) spend 1.8k, still have almost 50k. or had nikolaus made off to south america with the booty ? ;-)
2013-12-19 00:40 <roh> DocScrutinizer05: when its for the neo900, just write cadsoft an email
2013-12-19 00:40 <roh> maybe you get some license for the project. i know some people who did, or atleast a big number off the full licence
2013-12-19 00:41 <roh> i know the ccc bought a full eagle licence with 50 seats, but that one is usually fully booked/used
2013-12-19 00:46 <roh> DocScrutinizer05: hm.. i see it for 1385€ atm... full 1 seat licence?
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2013-12-19 01:18 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, that's probably without autorouter or sth. would probably suffice
2013-12-19 01:20 <DocScrutinizer05> I dunno why but HNS is doing the autorouting with a program he wrote himself
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2013-12-19 01:21 <roh> DocScrutinizer05: nope.. full with everything
2013-12-19 01:21 <roh> http://www.cadsoftusa.com/shop/pricing/#eur
2013-12-19 01:23 <wpwrak> autorouting. eek :)
2013-12-19 01:23 <DocScrutinizer05> weird, last time I checked that been ~1800
2013-12-19 01:23 <wpwrak> xmas discount :)
2013-12-19 01:25 <DocScrutinizer05> prolly VAT
2013-12-19 01:25 <DocScrutinizer05> click on "German" upper right and you get Layout+Schaltplan+Autorouter	€1648
2013-12-19 01:25 <DocScrutinizer05> taking you to http://www.cadsoft.de/
2013-12-19 01:31 <roh> hrhr.. vat... you get that back anyhow as 'commercial' entity
2013-12-19 01:37 <DocScrutinizer05> well, for now I'm no commercial entity, otherwise I'd simply but that stuff and not worry about a 1600EUR
2013-12-19 01:37 <DocScrutinizer05> buy*
2013-12-19 01:38 <DocScrutinizer05> OTOH maybe that's the solution to this as well as some other problems
2013-12-19 01:38 <roh> sure. elsewise you pay shitloads of taxes
2013-12-19 01:38 <DocScrutinizer05> I should resurrect my company
2013-12-19 01:39 <DocScrutinizer05> and then just send an invoice to GolDeliCo
2013-12-19 01:39 <roh> or let them buy it, or just a seat on their license
2013-12-19 01:39 <DocScrutinizer05> HNS rejected that
2013-12-19 01:40 <roh> i see.. much too easy
2013-12-19 01:40 <roh> s/much/way
2013-12-19 01:40 <qi-bot> roh meant: "i see.. way too easy"
2013-12-19 01:43 <DocScrutinizer05> anybody a hint regarding founding something like a GmbH or UG? Particularly I'd need somebody who knows doing the whole commercial/accounting crap
2013-12-19 01:45 <DocScrutinizer05> time to sort out the papers this neo900 project is based on. Sure we should've done that beforehand, but then Neo900 never had happened
2013-12-19 01:50 <roh> gismo did that. i think it simply costs money and time.
2013-12-19 01:50 <DocScrutinizer05> it needs knowhow
2013-12-19 01:50 <roh> the money mostly because you need somebody with a clue of accounting and paperwork
2013-12-19 01:51 <DocScrutinizer05> I'd add VAT with other taxes and divide it by Pi
2013-12-19 01:51 <DocScrutinizer05> exactly
2013-12-19 01:52 <DocScrutinizer05> and no clue where to find such an expert, or even how's the name of such experts
2013-12-19 01:52 <roh> i dont even do my freelancer paper stuff myself. its worth outsorceing that
2013-12-19 01:52 <roh> 'steuerberater' mostly
2013-12-19 01:52 <DocScrutinizer05> well, for such stuff you got "Steuerberater"
2013-12-19 01:52 <DocScrutinizer05> not suited for doing a company clerk
2013-12-19 01:53 <roh> and they do book-keeping stuff also for money. just push em the papers
2013-12-19 01:53 <DocScrutinizer05> they do?
2013-12-19 01:53 <roh> sure, you need to write invoices and move money around yourself, but they can do the paperwork which is the evil followup.
2013-12-19 01:53 <DocScrutinizer05> cool, I might just have a talk to one of those guys
2013-12-19 01:54 <DocScrutinizer05> first of all I need a bank account that's exclusively for the company
2013-12-19 01:54 <roh> some even do the 'here is a moving box full of unopened letters from the last 8 years, i get audited!'-services (costs extra) ;)
2013-12-19 01:55 <DocScrutinizer05> sure, but what I'd need is more than some steuerberater doing the paperwork for me
2013-12-19 01:55 <DocScrutinizer05> I need somebody handling the stuff
2013-12-19 01:55 <DocScrutinizer05> and coming up with ideas on *how* to handle it
2013-12-19 01:55 <roh> go to your local ihk, they have (usually for free) info material about funding a company/accounts.. etc... including a 'step by step' how works what
2013-12-19 01:55 <DocScrutinizer05> ooh, brilliant! thanks a lot!
2013-12-19 01:55 <DocScrutinizer05> will do
2013-12-19 01:56 <roh> i mean.. thats what these guys are paid for anyhow ;)
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2013-12-19 01:56 <roh> i should have done that. i was even too stupid to get some state funding for 'existenzgruender'... thus payd my health insurance myself from the first day
2013-12-19 01:57 <DocScrutinizer05> that's what I pondered for the last 2 weeks
2013-12-19 01:57 <DocScrutinizer05> since that's exactly my major problem right now
2013-12-19 01:57 <roh> there is some scheme, atleast there was where you only paid part of that for the first 2 years or so
2013-12-19 01:58 <DocScrutinizer05> :nod:
2013-12-19 01:58 <DocScrutinizer05> seems I should give my "Arbeitsagentur" a visit
2013-12-19 01:58 <roh> i guess you'll need a businessplan for that, but its mostly a lyrical description of your plans
2013-12-19 01:59 <roh> that could help as well. these guys really like initiative. gives them the feeling of doing something sane for a change ;)
2013-12-19 01:59 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, I wonder how much it would help to point them to neo900.org
2013-12-19 02:00 <roh> since you already got a project you have atleast the bonus of not having to find something first!11! ;)
2013-12-19 02:00 <DocScrutinizer05> or if they will istantly freeze my support and call the police
2013-12-19 02:00 <roh> nah.. just be careful about what you say
2013-12-19 02:01 <DocScrutinizer05> those guys always seem to do the most acerbating thing for their client's plans
2013-12-19 02:02 <DocScrutinizer05> s/acerbating/detrimental/
2013-12-19 02:02 <qi-bot> DocScrutinizer05 meant: "those guys always seem to do the most detrimental thing for their client's plans"
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2013-12-19 05:06 * whitequark bought some of that press-n-peel toner transfer thingy
2013-12-19 05:06 <whitequark> let's see how it fares again plain toner transfer and photoresist
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2013-12-19 13:56 <paul_boddie> DocScrutinizer05: About the Molex connector, what are the "mated stacking heights"? I only ask because that connector is 0.05mm different from another on DigiKey in that respect.
2013-12-19 13:57 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, molex suggested that 1.0mm as alternative, but it's not compatible
2013-12-19 13:57 <paul_boddie> Of course, with FFCs - which I guess this is all about - that could make all the difference. Stupid FFCs!
2013-12-19 13:57 <DocScrutinizer05> AIUI
2013-12-19 13:58 <DocScrutinizer05> the problem is we got the one side (let's say male) fixed, we need to find a matching "female" conector
2013-12-19 13:58 <DocScrutinizer05> molex today answered they don't have stock and don't know of any of their customers to have stock
2013-12-19 13:58 <DocScrutinizer05> and they seem not willing to produce one reel for us
2013-12-19 13:59 <paul_boddie> Lovely schematic! Even the fonts seem to be done using a plotter.
2013-12-19 14:00 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, the fonts are abysmal, and I don't like the schematics style
2013-12-19 14:01 <DocScrutinizer05> if you talk about the GTA04
2013-12-19 14:01 <paul_boddie> But H. Shimabukuro went to a lot of effort! :-)
2013-12-19 14:03 <paul_boddie> (I was looking at the Molex schematic.)
2013-12-19 14:05 <DocScrutinizer05> ooh
2013-12-19 14:05 <DocScrutinizer05> Eagle fonts in schematics are worst I ever seen
2013-12-19 14:05 <paul_boddie> Difficult to make stuff out on these things unless you have experience, I guess.
2013-12-19 14:05 <paul_boddie> Now that I'm looking at one from JAE, I start to appreciate the Molex one. ;-)
2013-12-19 14:08 <wpwrak> the nasty bit are drawings that don't specify all the dimensions
2013-12-19 14:09 <wpwrak> or those that have sets without common points of reference
2013-12-19 14:14 <paul_boddie> Is this the 1.0mm alternative...? http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/502426-6410/WM24076-ND/1987571
2013-12-19 14:19 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer05: can you replace (rework) the one on the FPC ?
2013-12-19 14:21 <DocScrutinizer05> hardly
2013-12-19 14:22 <DocScrutinizer05> paul_boddie: I haven't checked
2013-12-19 14:22 <DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak: it's glued
2013-12-19 14:22 <DocScrutinizer05> tried to unsolder one with hot air. broke
2013-12-19 14:22 <DocScrutinizer05> and we can't ask customers to do that, even when they were not glued
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2013-12-19 14:30 <wpwrak> well, you could ship them with the board
2013-12-19 14:31 <wpwrak> but glue sucks
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2013-12-19 14:35 <DocScrutinizer05> ship what with the board?
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2013-12-19 14:37 <wpwrak> yes, if you can figure out a way to rework them, you can sell them to people who a) have an n900 they want to recycle but b) don't feel up to doing the rework themselves
2013-12-19 14:37 <wpwrak> of course, at a cost
2013-12-19 14:38 <DocScrutinizer05> them=what?
2013-12-19 14:39 <wpwrak> that fpc assembly, with a replacement connector (if you can't get the original, which seems increasingly likely)
2013-12-19 14:40 <wpwrak> not great but better than nothing. well, if you can find a way to defeat the glue. that may be tricky.
2013-12-19 14:43 <DocScrutinizer05> we would need to produce a FPC then with another maybe equally hard to source LCD connector, and a definitely hard to source other few parts, like front camera and ALS and proximity and whatnot else
2013-12-19 14:44 <wpwrak> ah, i was thinking of buying the ones you can get on ebay and reworking it. always assuming you can still find a way to do this despite the glue
2013-12-19 14:45 <DocScrutinizer05> and we would have to tell customers that they need to disassemble their display half, rip off the FPC and glue on a new one. Not exactly a simple process, Nokia care spoiled it on my N900 when they did a FPC repair
2013-12-19 14:46 <DocScrutinizer05> we rather get the connectors custom made for 10000EUR/1000qty
2013-12-19 14:46 <DocScrutinizer05> there are companies to offer such service
2013-12-19 14:46 <wpwrak> oh, good
2013-12-19 14:47 <DocScrutinizer05> well, a bit less horridly expensive would be even better
2013-12-19 14:48 <DocScrutinizer05> but it's still cheaper than rework of existing FPC or building new ones
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2013-12-19 14:48 <DocScrutinizer05> and more convenient to customers, too
2013-12-19 14:48 <wpwrak> yeah, it's a good plan B
2013-12-19 14:50 <wpwrak> it's also good that you contacted molex. if they know that you're looking for these connectors, maybe they'll keep a (passive) search running.
2013-12-19 14:50 <DocScrutinizer05> lickily we're almost at 250 devices already, so the connector is only 40EUR per device
2013-12-19 14:50 <DocScrutinizer05> luckily*
2013-12-19 14:50 <wpwrak> i'm sure you can get a lot more when you're getting ready for production
2013-12-19 14:50 <DocScrutinizer05> I hope for that
2013-12-19 14:52 <DocScrutinizer05> bbl
2013-12-19 15:00 <whitequark> my new favorite facepalm pic: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bb2CcDPIAAAZOz3.jpg
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2013-12-19 15:11 <DocScrutinizer05> whitequark: can you explain to me what this whiley e. coyote epigone jumping from the tower actually thought he's doing?
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2013-12-19 15:12 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer05: maybe this explains it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS7FZBgOqgw
2013-12-19 15:12 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: afaik he was a BASE jumper who didn't jump very well and thus was rotating in air
2013-12-19 15:12 <whitequark> and his chute, which was already at the border of its operating conditions, didn't open
2013-12-19 15:14 <wpwrak> whitequark: can you understand what the camera guy mumbled at the end ?
2013-12-19 15:15 <wpwrak> probably "he had the vodka bottle and now it's all broken [copulating cats"
2013-12-19 15:15 <wpwrak> err, the vodka bottleS, of course
2013-12-19 15:16 <whitequark> wpwrak: yes, sure. it's an one word expletive, roughly meaning "all is lost"
2013-12-19 15:17 <whitequark> appropriate for everything from being one rouble short for a vodka bottle to a beginning of an atomic war
2013-12-19 15:17 <wpwrak> i kinda thought that this was sort of all the same from the russian point of view :)
2013-12-19 15:18 <whitequark> etymologically, it's derived from the obscene term for female genitalia
2013-12-19 15:18 <whitequark> wpwrak: well, yes... :)
2013-12-19 15:19 <wpwrak> i wonder if there are language courses for swearing in russian. could be a useful cultural addition.
2013-12-19 15:19 <wpwrak> especially when translated back to a language others can understand :)
2013-12-19 15:21 <whitequark> english is really poor at swearing
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2013-12-19 15:22 <DocScrutinizer05> thanks!
2013-12-19 15:23 <whitequark> there's like seven words and all of them have specific and rather dull meaning
2013-12-19 15:23 <DocScrutinizer05> paul_boddie: first of all we'd love the find ONE lousy 500246471 to check if it actually is what we're confronted with
2013-12-19 15:24 <whitequark> whereas in russian you have quite a few roots and countless forms and combinations, and all of them are ambiguous
2013-12-19 15:26 <whitequark> when I have to swear in english, I find it easier to simply use "fuck" (and its derivatives) in place of all other expletives, since that, by removing incidental extraneous information, hopefully forces the listener to disambiguate it themselves and hear something more amusing, rewarding and/or descriptive
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2013-12-19 15:26 <whitequark> though I probably just come off as a person with a very small vocabulary
2013-12-19 15:27 <viric> it's hard to learn proper swearing in a foreign language
2013-12-19 15:27 <wpwrak> but one who puts a lot of thought into his swearing ;-)
2013-12-19 15:28 <wpwrak> viric: thanks to the intertubes and the online fora, this has gotten a lot easier in the last years
2013-12-19 15:29 <viric> English doesn't count
2013-12-19 15:29 <viric> because there is a very broad acceptance of speaking.
2013-12-19 15:30 <viric> noone of us natively speaks English, and we repeat "the English we see around".
2013-12-19 15:30 <whitequark> there's really no such a language as English
2013-12-19 15:30 <whitequark> s,a ,,
2013-12-19 15:33 <viric> it's like if I spoke russian with a non-russian
2013-12-19 15:34 <viric> and we tried to swear. both would understand, but a Russian would laugh on how bad we use swear words
2013-12-19 15:37 <viric> I bet an Englishman would notice hard differences among frasal verbs with 'fuck'
2013-12-19 15:37 <whitequark> phrasal ?
2013-12-19 15:38 <viric> phrazzoul
2013-12-19 15:38 <viric> :)
2013-12-19 15:46 <paul_boddie> DocScrutinizer05: You mean one in its loose form and not in its native habitat in an N900?
2013-12-19 15:46 <paul_boddie> whitequark: I think "copulating cats" has some mileage as new English swearing. :-)
2013-12-19 15:47 <viric> paul_boddie: are you English?
2013-12-19 15:47 <viric> I'd like to know how an Englishman interprets "a fig for the king"
2013-12-19 15:48 <paul_boddie> viric: Yes.
2013-12-19 15:48 <viric> can that be interpreted as "a finger for the king"?    middle finger raised.
2013-12-19 15:49 <paul_boddie> I'm sure "I don't give a fig" could be interpreted liberally to mean something rude, so why not?
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2013-12-19 15:50 <whitequark> paul_boddie: I should use it more often
2013-12-19 15:51 <paul_boddie> English banter relies a lot on wordplay, but that often leads to English speakers expecting to do the same in other languages, and it often doesn't work out.
2013-12-19 15:51 <whitequark> in that video, it was used in a completely nonchalant, descriptive manner. cats are copulating. sun is bright. we are floating to the shore.
2013-12-19 15:51 <whitequark> that made it both more fitting and hilarious.
2013-12-19 15:52 <paul_boddie> I was surprised how calm they sounded. It's as if they were in an amphibious vehicle and weren't concerned about sinking.
2013-12-19 15:53 <paul_boddie> It all reminded me of the way stupid console racing games reward players who more or less "ride" the crash barrier around the course.
2013-12-19 15:53 <whitequark> that's how you are expected to behave, in a lot of social circles
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2013-12-19 16:05 <DocScrutinizer05> paul_boddie: yes
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2013-12-19 16:20 <paul_boddie> It's a shame they don't have actual photographs for all of those parts. It's hard to know what I'm looking at most of the time.
2013-12-19 16:23 <DocScrutinizer05> that's why it took me one complete day to find this 500246471
2013-12-19 16:23 <DocScrutinizer05> type
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2013-12-19 16:52 <paul_boddie> Heh, KGB Answers: http://www.kgbanswers.com/what-does-under-my-cloak-a-fig-for-the-king-mean/10860713
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2013-12-19 19:48 <whitequark> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTU0Nzg
2013-12-19 19:48 <whitequark> surprisingly, FSF just did something sane
2013-12-19 19:51 <larsc_> o way
2013-12-19 19:51 <larsc_> no way
2013-12-19 19:53 <whitequark> that would be a nice laptop for people with a legitimate reason to be paranoid
2013-12-19 19:53 <wpwrak> cute :)
2013-12-19 19:54 <whitequark> reminds me of a days old article: turns out (I'm shocked, shocked) you can enable the webcam on a macbook without lighting up the LED, from userspace
2013-12-19 19:54 <lekernel> "The refurbished ThinkPad X60s from Gluglug start out with 1GB of RAM and a 60GB HDD" ?
2013-12-19 19:54 <whitequark> lekernel: yes, what's about it ?
2013-12-19 19:55 <lekernel> and 1024x768 LCD... ahem
2013-12-19 19:55 <wpwrak> whitequark: that's nice of apple. so you don't jump every time the NSA checks if you're still okay.
2013-12-19 19:56 <lekernel> well, that's rather small by today's standards
2013-12-19 19:57 <whitequark> lekernel: yes, it's inconvenient. but that's the price you pay for absence of backdoors.
2013-12-19 19:57 <lekernel> did they check the HDD firmware for backdoors too? :-)
2013-12-19 19:58 <whitequark> for reference, recent-ish (I think ~2011 onwards) Intel laptops all include so-called anti-theft technology
2013-12-19 19:58 <lekernel> and the wifi card firmware (PCIe can DMA all over the place), and ...
2013-12-19 19:58 <whitequark> which in layman's terms means that the BIOS, while the laptop is apparently off is able to connect to the WiFi/3G networks and receive commands remotely and execute them
2013-12-19 19:59 <whitequark> and it's a feature
2013-12-19 19:59 <whitequark> barring all NSA-related stuff, I don't even want to know how many holes are in that thing
2013-12-19 19:59 <whitequark> lekernel: I believe they installed the Atheros card with FOSS firmware
2013-12-19 19:59 <whitequark> so probably yes
2013-12-19 20:00 <whitequark> HDD isn't a likely attack vector, but here you can embed your Linux image in the BIOS, thus removing HDD from trust chain
2013-12-19 20:00 <whitequark> so it's also not a problem
2013-12-19 20:02 <lekernel> most HDD CPUs are powerful enough to run Linux (and have plenty of SDRAM disk cache for memory)
2013-12-19 20:03 <whitequark> assuming you encrypt and sign the data, what exactly can you do from a compromised HDD?
2013-12-19 20:04 <whitequark> you could obviously swap the bootsector and inject a backdoor. I've addressed that above.
2013-12-19 20:05 <whitequark> incidentally, this can also be fixed by EFI SecureBoot, if you got your keys into it (easy) and trust EFI vendor to not fuck up (ha.)
2013-12-19 20:06 <lekernel> send rogue signals over SATA to exploit the 1337 vulnerabilities that drivers surely have. but yeh.
2013-12-19 20:06 <lekernel> it gets hard :)
2013-12-19 20:07 <lekernel> where's the FOSS firmware for Atheros?
2013-12-19 20:07 <whitequark> and this is why you probably should have systems languages with strong type systems :p
2013-12-19 20:07 <whitequark> http://wireless.kernel.org/en/users/Drivers/ath5k#Hacking_ath5k
2013-12-19 20:08 <whitequark> though AR5B195 doesn't seem to appear in the device list... this needs further investigation
2013-12-19 20:10 <whitequark> ah, no, that's AR9285, which is ath9k-based. so no FOSS WiFi firmware.
2013-12-19 20:10 <whitequark> lekernel: on a more recent chip, you can prevent peripherals from DMAing all over the place with IOMMU.
2013-12-19 20:10 <whitequark> but, you don't have coreboot on them.
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2013-12-19 21:24 <roh> firmware?
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