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2013-12-15 00:13 <wpwrak> today is blackout day :-(
2013-12-15 00:29 <nicksydney> damn it !!!!...still doesn't want to stick !
2013-12-15 00:29 <nicksydney> the only successful one (around 60% stick) is the brochure
2013-12-15 00:32 <wpwrak> maybe your iron is set too cold ?
2013-12-15 00:33 <wpwrak> or maybe you're not ironing long enough
2013-12-15 00:33 <wpwrak> or not applying enough pressure. you can pretty much push down as hard as you like..
2013-12-15 00:34 <wpwrak> also, what does "doesn't want to stick" mean ? nothing at all ?
2013-12-15 00:37 <nicksydney> i meant the toner doesn't want to stick completely on the board :)
2013-12-15 00:38 <nicksydney> i set the iron to the ma
2013-12-15 00:38 <nicksydney> *max
2013-12-15 00:38 <nicksydney> if i still see the toner still stick to the paper does that mean that not enough heat being transferred ?
2013-12-15 00:38 <nicksydney> in terms of pressure my feeling is i apply enough pressure but probably need to press bit harder
2013-12-15 00:40 <wpwrak> yes, i'd try with a bit more pressure and maybe more time ironing
2013-12-15 00:41 <wpwrak> how do you treat the surface of the paper ? do you clean it with alcohol ? or not at all ? you can try reversing whatever you do there
2013-12-15 00:43 <wpwrak> (clean with alcohol) wet a bit with alcohol, leave it there for a few seconds, then gently remove the jelly-like stuff from the surface with a paper towel.
2013-12-15 00:43 <wpwrak> not all papers have such a surface treatment, but many do
2013-12-15 00:55 <nicksydney> for the paper not at all no treatment
2013-12-15 00:55 <nicksydney> you mean clean the paper with alcohol before printing or after printing the artwork ?
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2013-12-15 01:01 <wpwrak> before printing
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2013-12-15 01:11 <nicksydney> this the current one I'm working  on ..... http://snag.gy/hWEBO.jpg  .... http://ctrlv.in/270531 .... http://ctrlv.in/270532
2013-12-15 01:11 <nicksydney> i'm still soaking the board in the water with hot water..let's see if those paper will come off by itself
2013-12-15 01:13 <wpwrak> don't soak. the paper really ought to come off dry.
2013-12-15 01:13 <wpwrak> if you soak it, you weaken the bonding of the surface, so the paper is more likely to remain
2013-12-15 01:15 <wpwrak> i wonder whether the copper is smooth enough. you're using fine steel wool, right ? not the coarse stuff
2013-12-15 01:16 <wpwrak> fine = the threads are about as thick as hair; coarse = the "threads" are maybe 0.5-1 mm wide
2013-12-15 01:17 <wpwrak> then, you should scrub in an X pattern: left-right until the copper shines, then up-down until you only see up-down grooves, then maybe repeat left-right
2013-12-15 01:18 <wpwrak> then clean the board surface with alcohol and paper towel. this is important for removing the steel dust
2013-12-15 01:25 <nicksydney> i think the step that i'm missing in cleaning the board is the use of alchohol....i only use water
2013-12-15 01:27 <wpwrak> ah no, water is bad. that'll only help the oxides back on board
2013-12-15 01:28 <wpwrak> besides, the alcohol will get rid of any lipids
2013-12-15 01:28 <nicksydney> i'm uploading the steel wool pic
2013-12-15 01:29 <nicksydney> http://ctrlv.in/270542 -- steel woll
2013-12-15 01:29 <wpwrak> that's the coarse stuff
2013-12-15 01:29 <nicksydney> another batch trying again -- http://ctrlv.in/270543
2013-12-15 01:31 <wpwrak> hmm, that paper looks quite thin. maybe that's part of the problem
2013-12-15 01:33 <wpwrak> the one i use is about 240 um. for comparison, regular laser printer paper is about 100 um.
2013-12-15 01:34 <wpwrak> so the printer paper has about the thickness of the paper you put photo prints on
2013-12-15 01:35 <wpwrak> well, maybe it only looks thin. how large is that sheet ?
2013-12-15 01:36 <nicksydney> if i compare with a normal A4 paper it's bit thicker
2013-12-15 01:36 <wpwrak> the steel wool you want should look like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Steel-wool.jpg
2013-12-15 01:37 <wpwrak> or like this: http://d3rhfm7sshutfw.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/steelwool-300x285.jpg
2013-12-15 01:40 <wpwrak> that other steel wool, if you pick the copper/bronce version of the same structure, makes an excellent sponge to clean the soldering iron. much more convenient than real sponges since it doesn't need to be wet.
2013-12-15 01:40 <nicksydney> the result after peeling off from the board (this is the 2nd attempt) -- http://ctrlv.in/270546
2013-12-15 01:40 <wpwrak> (but don't use steel wool - use copper/bronce wool. the steel would damage the tip of the soldering iron)
2013-12-15 01:41 <wpwrak> (picture) i'm confused :)
2013-12-15 01:42 <wpwrak> what's that yellow-white film stuff ?
2013-12-15 01:42 <nicksydney> this is the result on the board (for the 2nd attempt) http://ctrlv.in/270547 .. and this is the result on the paper what is left over of the toner after peeling it off from the board  http://ctrlv.in/270546
2013-12-15 01:42 <nicksydney> the "yellow-film" stuff is a brochure paper i'm using
2013-12-15 01:43 <wpwrak> ah, i see
2013-12-15 01:43 <wpwrak> you still have the problem that the paper disintegrates
2013-12-15 01:44 <wpwrak> that paper probably doesn't have enough strength. and it probably simply doesn't have enough plastic/jelly on its surface
2013-12-15 01:44 <wpwrak> so the toner really likes to stay on the paper
2013-12-15 01:45 <wpwrak> please use a glossy "photo" paper for ink printers. once you get that to work, you can always try to find some cheaper paper source. but it's probably not worth the effort.
2013-12-15 01:46 <nicksydney> this is the original brochure paper i used for the 2nd attempt http://ctrlv.in/270549
2013-12-15 01:47 <wpwrak> ah, i see. don't know how these are made. the chemistry may be quite different from "photo" paper
2013-12-15 01:48 <nicksydney> looks like i need to revisit (1) the way the copper is being clean and (2) just use photo paper ... what you think  ?
2013-12-15 01:48 <wpwrak> btw, there's yet another choice: if you can't find any photo paper with enough plastic on it, you can try the plastified paper on which adhesive stickers come
2013-12-15 01:49 <nicksydney> (1) for cleaning the copper .. will need to find the steel wool you showed in that link and also will need alcohol...in terms of cleaning the board...i just use alchohol to clean it OR clean it first with water and than apply alcohol >
2013-12-15 01:50 <wpwrak> a few warnings about that, though: a) you need to clean it very well or you'll drag glue into your printer causing an early retirement of at least the transfer drum, and b) you need to work at a lower temperature with this sort of paper
2013-12-15 01:51 <nicksydney> "lower temp with this sort of paper"...you mean the photo paper ?
2013-12-15 01:51 <wpwrak> (cleaning) just alcohol: 1) scrub it nice and shiny with the steel wool, then 2) put a bit of alcohol on it, wet a paper town with alcohol, then rub off the steel dust (you can apply a good amount of pressure). you'll see that the paper towel comes back black.
2013-12-15 01:52 <wpwrak> (lower temp) subtrate for adhesives. the "plan B" approach
2013-12-15 01:53 <wpwrak> but it's better if you can get "photo" paper to work. that's more robust. the adhesives stuff is also very sensitive to pressure and such. so it smears easily. you can get it to work but it takes some effort.
2013-12-15 01:54 <wpwrak> it's basically the exact opposite of your not-to-cooperative brochure. but of course, if failure lurks at one extreme, that doens't mean that the other extreme is any friendlier :)
2013-12-15 01:55 <wpwrak> # s/-to-/-so-/
2013-12-15 01:56 <nicksydney> this is the photo paper i got ... http://ctrlv.in/270552
2013-12-15 01:58 <wpwrak> the one i used was called "HP Premium Plus Photo Paper"
2013-12-15 01:58 <wpwrak> actually, "HP Premium Photo Paper, glossy"
2013-12-15 01:59 <wpwrak> so maybe that's one extra ppm of plastic :)
2013-12-15 01:59 <nicksydney> is this Isopropyl Alcohol  http://www.recochem.com.au/files/downloads/Cons_Isopropyl_Alcohol_PDS_Oct11.pdf enough ?
2013-12-15 01:59 <wpwrak> but of course we don't get that good stuff around here anymore
2013-12-15 02:00 <wpwrak> the replacement i use now is this: http://yidugroup.en.made-in-china.com/productimage/jesJuzASYmGk-2f1j00FeOaLPRSgTUo/China-Glossy-Inkjet-Photo-Paper.html
2013-12-15 02:01 <wpwrak> it gives off particles that will eventually produce visible artefacts on the printer's drum but the transfer is very clean. and no problems at all with paper disintegrating.
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2013-12-15 02:03 <wpwrak> (alcohol) looks decent enough. they don't even mention the concentration so maybe it's actually pure :)
2013-12-15 02:05 <nicksydney> (alchohol) will buy that later today and also the steel wool and will try again with the HP photo paper again
2013-12-15 02:05 <nicksydney> using this paper http://yidugroup.en.made-in-china.com/productimage/jesJuzASYmGk-2f1j00FeOaLPRSgTUo/China-Glossy-Inkjet-Photo-Paper.html were you able to do transfer completely everytime ?
2013-12-15 02:06 <wpwrak> if you have a stationary / computer supplies shop on the way, maybe look for that chinese paper, too. maybe you're lucky :)
2013-12-15 02:06 <wpwrak> yes, it works great. remember this ? http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/paper/
2013-12-15 02:07 <wpwrak> the one on the left is the "HP Premium Photo Paper, glossy", the one on the right the paper from china
2013-12-15 02:07 <nicksydney> there is on ebay.com.au http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/New-20-Sheets-x-A4-Glossy-Photo-Paper-For-Inkjet-Printer-140gsm-/251249784571?pt=AU_Computers_Printer_Accessories&hash=item3a7fa776fb
2013-12-15 02:08 <wpwrak> its main weakness are large surfaces. there, it sometimes leaves holes. but then you can just cover them up with a permanent marker. or ignore the imperfection.
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2013-12-15 02:10 <wpwrak> mine is heavier, 240-260 g
2013-12-15 02:10 <nicksydney> when you did this  http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/paper/ you just peel the paper off and that's it ?
2013-12-15 02:11 <wpwrak> yup. nice and easy ;-)
2013-12-15 02:11 <nicksydney> the one that I have http://ctrlv.in/270552 it says 250
2013-12-15 02:12 <wpwrak> well, i wash the board afterwards. with tap water, rubbing it with a thumb. that way, any plastic residues that may get in the way of the acid come off. else you can have some small copper spots.
2013-12-15 02:13 <wpwrak> 250 sounds good. that means that they have enough space to make it nice
2013-12-15 02:15 <nicksydney> i was wondering you know with this one http://ctrlv.in/270531 what will happen if the paper is not removed completely and then etch it ?
2013-12-15 02:16 <wpwrak> the acid will politely refrain from touching the areas it's being blocked from
2013-12-15 02:17 <nicksydney> i see....because it looks like it sticks to the copper but the paper "refuses" to let it go
2013-12-15 02:17 <wpwrak> maybe a little bit will make it under the paper but its effect will be greatly reduced
2013-12-15 02:19 <wpwrak> well, unless you make a REALLY aggressive mix. if you make the acid bad enough, then it'll just eat through anything in its way. be that paper, pieces of nick, or whatever :)
2013-12-15 02:20 <wpwrak> yup, that's what it looks like. most likely the thin plastic surface coating, not the paper itself. so that's a very efficient acid barrier.
2013-12-15 02:20 <nicksydney> from all the paper i've tried that one i notice was the most successful one....but it's so annoying that i can't get rid of the left over paper
2013-12-15 02:21 <nicksydney> http://ctrlv.in/270531 --> in this one you notice the top and bottom part i strip off the paper and the whole toner came off with it
2013-12-15 02:21 <wpwrak> naw, that doesn't look very successful. exactly because of that problem
2013-12-15 02:21 <wpwrak> don't be fooled by the nice print you can see through the paper. that's toner on paper, not toner on copper.
2013-12-15 02:22 <nicksydney> ahh ok...thought that the toner has "stick" to the copper but the paper refuses to do it
2013-12-15 02:23 <wpwrak> all the places where you were able to remove the paper say otherwise :)
2013-12-15 02:24 <wpwrak> well, except the about 2 x 2 mm lower right corner. these three vias and their traces look quite nice ;)
2013-12-15 02:25 <nicksydney> will try again later .. need to go out after this and drop by to buy the alcohol and steel wolll
2013-12-15 02:25 <wpwrak> happy hunting ! :)
2013-12-15 02:32 <nicksydney> oh the other thing i was thinking and tried was the clear tape https://www.google.com.au/search?q=clear+tape&client=ubuntu&hs=URi&channel=fs&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=qBStUtoziMiVBZyLgNAG&ved=0CEEQsAQ&biw=1615&bih=960
2013-12-15 02:33 <wpwrak> what about it ?
2013-12-15 02:33 <nicksydney> so i lay a brochure paper and put clear tape on top of that and than print on it ..and after ironing the board i peel it off i can see that is sticks better to the board
2013-12-15 02:33 <wpwrak> ;-)
2013-12-15 02:33 <nicksydney> but it was not 100%..it was around 70-75% successful on the board
2013-12-15 02:33 <wpwrak> well, that's one way of getting plastic ...
2013-12-15 02:34 <wpwrak> yes, that could work if you refine the process sufficiently
2013-12-15 02:34 <nicksydney> do you think the paper that is used for laying the plastic tape on really matter when it comes to ironing it to the board ?
2013-12-15 02:36 <nicksydney> will try that again once i clean the board properly and see if it will work
2013-12-15 02:37 <wpwrak> (paper used for laying the plastic tape on) you mean if you print on adhesive tape instead of on photo paper ? well, it would still have to make a firm connection with the adhesive tape. but else, it would be removed from the equation.
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2013-12-15 03:06 <wpwrak> bwahaha: http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/iteaduino-lite-most-inexpensive-full-sized-arduino-derivative-board
2013-12-15 03:06 <wpwrak> finally - an arduino at the price of a four-pack of toilet paper.
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2013-12-15 07:02 <whitequark> huh. LGT88A8, a clone of atmega328
2013-12-15 07:03 <whitequark> seems like a first of its kind
2013-12-15 07:14 <larsc_> maybe a nightshift version of it ;)
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2013-12-15 10:16 <larsc_> apelete: yep, unfortunatelly something went wrong when the patches were submitted originally and the patch removing the old custom API was merged before the audio driver was updated.
2013-12-15 10:17 <larsc_> apelete: how about adding your usb patches to the qi kernel tree?
2013-12-15 10:34 <apelete> larsc_: was thinking about it yesterday. is it okay if I push them to jz-3.12 branch ?
2013-12-15 10:34 <larsc_> yes
2013-12-15 10:34 <apelete> okay
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2013-12-15 11:39 <qi-bot> [commit] Apelete Seketeli: usb: musb: add support for JZ4740 usb device controller (jz-3.12) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/03232dd
2013-12-15 11:39 <qi-bot> [commit] Apelete Seketeli: usb: musb: fix setting JZ4740 gadget periphal mode on reset (jz-3.12) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/77ae279
2013-12-15 11:39 <qi-bot> [commit] Apelete Seketeli: mips: qi_lb60: update defconfig for the Ben NanoNote (jz-3.12) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/364d81f
2013-12-15 11:42 <larsc_> I think we can also revert the old driver
2013-12-15 11:43 <larsc_> But this is really awesome, since this was one of the last major missing pieces to finally have full upstream support for the nanonote
2013-12-15 11:44 <apelete> larsc_: hmm, old driver is already disabled in the code, maybe we can wait that the musb glue layer is merged upstream before removing it completely
2013-12-15 11:44 <apelete> what do you think ?
2013-12-15 11:46 <larsc_> I'd just remove it
2013-12-15 11:46 <larsc_> but whatever you think is better
2013-12-15 11:46 <larsc_> We may use the old driver to figure out how to get dma working
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2013-12-15 11:48 <apelete> larsc_: yes, that's what I was thinking: keep it for now in case we need it later to figure how some things like dma may work
2013-12-15 11:48 <apelete> s/figure/figure out/
2013-12-15 11:48 <qi-bot> apelete meant: "larsc_: yes, that's what I was thinking: keep it for now in case we need it later to figure out how some things like dma may work"
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2013-12-15 21:53 <nicksydney> wpwrak: got the alcohol yesterday...got this one http://www.chemistwarehouse.com.au/product.asp?id=40678
2013-12-15 21:53 <nicksydney> wpwrak: will "resume" the adventure lunch time ;)
2013-12-15 22:02 <wpwrak> oh, right, it's already monday over there :)
2013-12-15 22:03 <wpwrak> the alcohol looks good
2013-12-15 22:03 <wpwrak> (gee, that's an easy thing to say :)
2013-12-15 22:05 <nicksydney> to ease the frustation pain i'm having with this task i have to make sure that I can make myself happy by saying thing that I think is not possible on paper :)
2013-12-15 22:06 <nicksydney> oh the other thing forgot to mention...i'm using iron like this http://shop.target.com.au//p/philips-powerlife-steam-iron-22-watts-gc296/P50242214?utm_term=P50242214&utm_content=philips-powerlife-steam-iron-22-watts-gc296&utm_source=google&utm_medium=merchant-site&utm_campaign=merchant-site&gclid=CM_8sa2es7sCFccTpAodBxUAcA ... now i know it says steam iron....but before using it i throw all the water from the iron...that should not be an issue right
2013-12-15 22:06 <nicksydney>  ?
2013-12-15 22:07 <nicksydney> wpwrak: yesterday you said that creating library (or was it a module) a pain in Kicad...found something that can ease the pain perhaps https://github.com/AdharLabs/Kicad-tools ? :)
2013-12-15 22:11 <wpwrak> modules are a pain. but i already have a tool for that, fped (even wrote it myself :)
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2013-12-15 22:12 <wpwrak> fped is a 2D parametric CAD. so it's not just a "wizard" that knows a few typical patterns.
2013-12-15 22:12 <nicksydney> ah yeah forgot that you mention that before :)
2013-12-15 22:12 <wpwrak> lemme update the catalog ...
2013-12-15 22:14 <apelete> hmmm, http://en.qi-hardware.com seems to be down, some kind of maintenance going on ?
2013-12-15 22:14 <wpwrak> just noticed, too. no catalog update then :-(
2013-12-15 22:15 <wpwrak> nicksydney: if you want to see the catalog, cd kicad-libs/modules; make catalog view
2013-12-15 22:15 <wpwrak> all the things in there were drawn with fped
2013-12-15 22:16 <wpwrak> i guess a "dry" steam iron is fine. of course, the flatter the surface, the better
2013-12-15 22:21 <nicksydney> wpwrak: http://pastebin.com/x0XPpc0L ..segementation fault
2013-12-15 22:22 <nicksydney> wpwrak: but the catalog.pdf is generated
2013-12-15 22:22 <nicksydney> and i can view it
2013-12-15 22:23 <nicksydney> cool there *LOADS* of footprints awesome !
2013-12-15 22:24 <wpwrak> hmm, maybe ubuntu broke xpdf again
2013-12-15 22:25 <wpwrak> they're in the habit of doing that. i gave up on their clumsiness (this has been going on for years now) and just built it from source
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2013-12-15 22:41 <wpwrak> qi-hw is back
2013-12-15 22:42 <lekernel> and the sharism.cc domain has expired
2013-12-15 22:43 <wpwrak> the modules catalog: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/kicad-libs-modules.pdf
2013-12-15 22:43 <wpwrak> lekernel: it did that eons ago
2013-12-15 22:44 <lekernel> 2013-11-19
2013-12-15 22:44 <lekernel> (domain expiring, not just the server going down)
2013-12-15 22:45 <wpwrak> even longer than i remembered. those eons flash past really quickly :)
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