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2013-12-07 01:23 <paul_boddie> wpwrak: Yes, that's where I saw it. Wonder which exploit they're trying for!
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2013-12-07 09:00 <larsc> 2none
2013-12-07 09:01 <larsc> they are trying to post a random comment
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2013-12-07 10:15 nicksydney_ is now known as nicksydney
2013-12-07 10:28 <nicksydney> hello all
2013-12-07 10:28 <nicksydney> wpwrak: what's happening over there :)
2013-12-07 10:36 <wpwrak> the evil daystar just woke me
2013-12-07 10:37 <wpwrak> larsc: at least they're bold. trying that right in the midst of the lion's den.
2013-12-07 10:41 <nicksydney> hahahah
2013-12-07 10:44 <wpwrak> nicksydney: how's the lab setup going ? getting ready to roll ? :)
2013-12-07 10:44 <nicksydney> yeah....got the printer and the paper....jaycar closed when i reach there so didn't get the PCB kit
2013-12-07 10:45 <nicksydney> i'm going to try to print using the photo paper i bought
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2013-12-07 10:46 <wpwrak> that pcb kit you mentioned wouldn't be much use anyway since it's for photochemical
2013-12-07 10:47 <wpwrak> if you have printer and paper, all you need are some copper-clad pcbs, an acid, and some containers that don't melt from the acid and that have a flat bottom
2013-12-07 10:48 <nicksydney> what kind of acid ?
2013-12-07 10:48 <nicksydney> i will get the PCB from that same store that sell the PCB kit
2013-12-07 10:48 <nicksydney> they sell copper pcb
2013-12-07 10:48 <nicksydney> this is what i got today http://ctrlv.in/267285
2013-12-07 10:50 <wpwrak> for the container, i'd say tupperware but if possible, i'd get something made of glass instead of plastic. more resistant :)
2013-12-07 10:50 <wpwrak> very good :)
2013-12-07 10:50 <wpwrak> acid: if you can get HCl (hardware store, pool supplies, etc.) and Peroxide (pharmacy), then you're good
2013-12-07 10:50 <nicksydney> made of glass...hmmm.....maybe some kind of microwaveable dish that normally used for lasagna :)
2013-12-07 10:51 <nicksydney> HCl -- what's common name if i go to hardware store ?
2013-12-07 10:51 <wpwrak> there are many other acids people use but that is about the easiest one
2013-12-07 10:52 <nicksydney> http://www.bunnings.com.au/search/products?q=Hydrochloric%20acid
2013-12-07 10:52 <wpwrak> HCl = muriatic acid
2013-12-07 10:52 <nicksydney> is that the one ?
2013-12-07 10:52 <wpwrak> yes
2013-12-07 10:52 <wpwrak> whitequark: see, if you need some, you can just fly over to australia :-)
2013-12-07 10:53 <nicksydney> ok will get this one .. http://www.bunnings.com.au/bondall-1l-hydrochloric-acid_p0960232
2013-12-07 10:53 <nicksydney> once i get it how should i use it ?
2013-12-07 10:53 <nicksydney> this is interesting "Bondall Hydrochloric Acid is the solution for acid etching concrete, brick and pavers to adequately prepare the surface prior to sealing or painting. It is also great for cleaning and polishing brick or metal and adjusting the pH level in pools." .... now they should add also for etching PCB :)
2013-12-07 10:54 <wpwrak> yeah, don't get more than 1 l. even half a liter would last for a very long time. do you have a place outdoors where you can store it ? garden, shed, balcony, ... ?
2013-12-07 10:54 <wpwrak> a place where kids and pets won't get to it
2013-12-07 10:54 <nicksydney> yeah...i can keep it outside in the garden
2013-12-07 10:55 <wpwrak> perfect. the bottle will give off a little bit of chloride gas. enough to corrode metals if it's locked up together with them. that's why it's best to keep it outside, so the gas gets just vented off
2013-12-07 10:57 <wpwrak> next, you'll need H2O2, peroxide. you should get a small bottle of ~5% at the pharmacy. if you can in addition find something with a higher concentration (up to 30%), even better
2013-12-07 11:00 <wpwrak> the weak one is enough to make a suitable solution. but it gets better: you can reuse the acid almost indefinitely, but you have to add small amounts of HCl and peroxide from time to time. especially the peroxide escapes relatively quickly.
2013-12-07 11:01 <nicksydney> http://www.chemistwarehouse.com.au/product.asp?id=5439
2013-12-07 11:01 <wpwrak> for "topping off" the etchant, peroxide with a higher concentration works best, since it adds less water and thus the brew doesn't get diluted so much
2013-12-07 11:02 <wpwrak> yeah, that's good
2013-12-07 11:02 <wpwrak> maybe get some of this, too: http://www.chemistwarehouse.com.au/product.asp?id=69464&pname=Hilift+Peroxide+40+VOL+12%25+200ml
2013-12-07 11:03 <wpwrak> mixing is about two parts 3-5% peroxide and one part HCl
2013-12-07 11:04 <wpwrak> you need just enough of both that both side the of the PCB will be covered. so a layer of about 2-3 mm at the bottom of the "tupperware"
2013-12-07 11:06 <wpwrak> regarding the "tupperware", make it the side of your typical PCB, which will generally be small. something like 6 x 6 cm may be enough. no need to go bigger than 10 x 10 cm. the bottom should be perfectly flat. and it should have a lit for airtight sealing (since you'll want to keep that acid for reuse)
2013-12-07 11:07 <wpwrak> note that the HCl+H2O2 combo doesn't need heating. some other acids do, especially FeCl. so if you find online articles explaining how to balance all the mess on your oven, just ignore them :)
2013-12-07 11:08 <wpwrak> ah, and while you're at it, get discardable gloves. latex or similar. they usually come in boxes of 100 units or so.
2013-12-07 11:09 <wpwrak> regarding the mixing: mix the solution before putting the PCB. then stir it, e.g., with a wooden stick (skewer or such)
2013-12-07 11:10 <wpwrak> if you need to add anything with the PCB already in the bath, then do that as far as possible from the PCB and stir immediately. else, you may get spots where the etchant is a lot more potent than elsewhere, which can produce highly uneven etching
2013-12-07 11:11 <wpwrak> lots of details but it's not really all that complicated :)
2013-12-07 11:11 <nicksydney> ok let me write a summary for myself
2013-12-07 11:12 <wpwrak> ah, when done etching, just grab the PCB with your gloves fingers, wipe the etchant off the PCB with the stick, then wash off the remaining acid with tap water
2013-12-07 11:13 <nicksydney> if i want to throw the HCL+H2O2 combo can i just throw it in the garden ?
2013-12-07 11:14 <wpwrak> the quantity of acid that's left is very low, so it won't attack anything. first rinse, then take off the gloves and rob the board with your fingers to get rid of the last bits. you want to make sure the board is completely acid-free when done. (else, it would continue etching away, eventually destroying your board)
2013-12-07 11:14 <wpwrak> only if you hate your garden and what lives in it ;)
2013-12-07 11:15 <wpwrak> a better approach is to let the open container sit in the sun for a while, so that all the water can evaporate. then you're left with blue-green crystals. you can scrape them out, wrap them watertight, and discard them as solid garbage.
2013-12-07 11:15 <nicksydney> hahaaha...ok got it
2013-12-07 11:15 <nicksydney> ok understand
2013-12-07 11:16 <nicksydney> explain to me bit more about " 3-5% peroxide and one part HCl"
2013-12-07 11:16 <nicksydney> let's take the measurement of the cap of the boottle
2013-12-07 11:16 <nicksydney> bottle
2013-12-07 11:16 <wpwrak> but as i said, that etchant can be reused. so disposal is usually a very rare event.
2013-12-07 11:17 <wpwrak> yes, any small container will do. measure the quantity you want, then drop it into the "tupperware". then add the other
2013-12-07 11:18 <wpwrak> many sources recommend doing this with the perixode first, then the acid. to avoid dropping things into a concentrated acid. not sure if it matters.
2013-12-07 11:19 <wpwrak> in any case, don't spill anything (and if you do, wash it off with a lot of water, then apply some soapy detergent - usually alkaline - over the affected area to neutralize the acid)
2013-12-07 11:19 <wpwrak> lemme snap a picture of my setup ...
2013-12-07 11:19 <nicksydney> cool
2013-12-07 11:19 <nicksydney> picture worth thousands word :)
2013-12-07 11:21 <wpwrak> hmm, in half an hour. camera commands me to change thebattery pack :-(
2013-12-07 11:23 <nicksydney> ok no worries......do I need to add water into the container when I combine HCL and H2O2 together ?
2013-12-07 11:25 <wpwrak> they already come with the water. HCL is only 35% and the peroxide even much lower. all the rest is good old water.
2013-12-07 11:26 <wpwrak> you'd only need to worry about adding water if you used a very strong concentration of peroxide. in theory, peroxide could go up to 100% (or almost). but at some point it'll just spontaneously explode :)
2013-12-07 11:27 <wpwrak> peroxide is an interesting chemical. starts as desinfectant. then you can use it to bleach hair. then you can use it to burn off layers of skin. then you can use it as rocket fuel. and then you get an unstable explosive :)
2013-12-07 11:27 <nicksydney> crazy
2013-12-07 11:27 <nicksydney> ok must be very careful in handling it
2013-12-07 11:28 <wpwrak> at 3-5% you're in the desinfectant range. at 10% you'd be in the bleaching range. 30% and it's the burn off of skins (at that point, gloves are no longer just a precaution :)
2013-12-07 11:28 <wpwrak> and unless you have good friends at the next missile base, you may not find it easy to go beyond 30% :)
2013-12-07 11:29 <nicksydney> this one http://www.chemistwarehouse.com.au/product.asp?id=69464&pname=Hilift+Peroxide+40+VOL+12%25+200ml is only 12% so it should be ok to handle
2013-12-07 11:29 <wpwrak> already 30% may be difficult. also because it's used to make drugs (all, what isn't ?)
2013-12-07 11:30 <nicksydney> i just opened the paper i bought...i think i make a mistake....it's a photo paper
2013-12-07 11:30 <nicksydney> it's white..not transparent
2013-12-07 11:34 <nicksydney> thought it is called photo paper as back in mind thought it will be glossy and transparent..but looks like it's not
2013-12-07 11:34 <wpwrak> (12%) yes, it's hair bleach. so wear gloves and don't splash it around. but it won't kill you.
2013-12-07 11:35 <wpwrak> the paper is good for toner transfer
2013-12-07 11:35 <wpwrak> remember the two different processes ? toner transfer and photochemical ? toner transfer is laser printer, white paper, ironing
2013-12-07 11:37 <nicksydney> ok i thought that normally you use the transparent paper http://www.ebay.com/bhp/overhead-transparencies
2013-12-07 11:37 <wpwrak> that would be for photochemical. photocemical is (any printer) transparencies, photo-sensitive coating, UV light
2013-12-07 11:38 <wpwrak> but we already discussed this at length yesterday or so, the irc logs are your friends :)
2013-12-07 11:39 <nicksydney> ok i take a look at the log .... very bad with words...i learn faster with pictures :)
2013-12-07 11:41 <nicksydney> ok will do printer testing with the new paper and see if this is going to work
2013-12-07 11:43 <wpwrak> ah, here's a nice collection of peroxide for hairdressers: http://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar/MLA-484877319-oxigenada-alfa-x-1-litro-_JM
2013-12-07 11:43 <wpwrak> also shows the "volume" notation vs. percent. so 10 Vol is 3%, etc.
2013-12-07 11:45 <wpwrak> that scale sensibly cuts off at 100 Vol = 30% :) (30% comes in a pitch-black bottle, with warning sings)
2013-12-07 11:45 <wpwrak> (for peroxide doesn't like sunlight)
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2013-12-07 11:56 <nicksydney> wohooo...successfully printed on the paper...uploading the pics hang on
2013-12-07 11:59 <nicksydney> when you print it ...what is the scale ?
2013-12-07 12:00 <wpwrak> i think you can guess that ;-)
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2013-12-07 12:02 <nicksydney> this is what i have --> http://snag.gy/jvEf2.jpg
2013-12-07 12:04 <nicksydney> this is the output on the photo paper --> http://ctrlv.in/267307
2013-12-07 12:05 <wpwrak> almost perfect
2013-12-07 12:05 <wpwrak> you also need to click "mirror"
2013-12-07 12:06 <wpwrak> that is, for the front layer. the back layer will be mirrored by default
2013-12-07 12:06 <wpwrak> you can tell whether it's mirrored by looking at text. if you can read if normally, it's wrong. (that why i always put some text on both sides)
2013-12-07 12:07 <nicksydney> ok...the measurement of the board is 3cm wide is that right ?
2013-12-07 12:07 <nicksydney> do i need to change anything on the 'Approx. Scale' ?
2013-12-07 12:08 <wpwrak> just keep accurate scale. no idea what "approx scale" is supposed to mean. sounds scary.
2013-12-07 12:12 <nicksydney> looks like something is offf...it's not printing the round wheel
2013-12-07 12:13 <wpwrak> ah the arc
2013-12-07 12:14 <wpwrak> ah yes, that's because you used "print"
2013-12-07 12:14 <wpwrak> "print" doesn't work. you have to use "plot" ,make a postscript, then print that postscript
2013-12-07 12:16 <nicksydney> ok need to find out way to print the postscript
2013-12-07 12:22 <nicksydney> wpwrak: how do you normally do  ?
2013-12-07 12:22 <wpwrak> "lpr filename" :)
2013-12-07 12:23 <nicksydney> using plot got few files with extension .gbl, .gbo, .gbr,etc
2013-12-07 12:23 <nicksydney> but no .ps file
2013-12-07 12:24 <wpwrak> that's because you didn't tell it to generate postscript
2013-12-07 12:24 <wpwrak> default is Gerber, hence the *.g*
2013-12-07 12:28 <nicksydney> managed to generate .pdf f
2013-12-07 12:29 <nicksydney> is it correct that the size of anelok is like 3cm ?
2013-12-07 12:29 <wpwrak> the pcb is 25 x 80 mm
2013-12-07 12:30 <nicksydney> bloody hell.....even my pinky size is double the size of the freescale processor
2013-12-07 12:31 <nicksydney> how in the hell i'm going to solder this :)
2013-12-07 12:31 <nicksydney> hahahhahaha
2013-12-07 12:31 <wpwrak> ;-)
2013-12-07 12:31 <wpwrak> with a steady hand and a lot of flux :)
2013-12-07 12:33 <nicksydney> basically you dip the pcb into the flux :)
2013-12-07 12:35 <wpwrak> well, that may actually work :)
2013-12-07 12:36 <nicksydney> the processor is it LQFP or QFN ?
2013-12-07 12:37 <wpwrak> 48-QFN, 0.5 mm pitch
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2013-12-07 12:42 <nicksydney> going to have a hard time soldering those if i manage to get a hand on that
2013-12-07 12:44 <wpwrak> the actual soldering isn't the diffcult part. what's tricky is the positioning.
2013-12-07 12:45 <wpwrak> it's kinda difficult to align the pads with the traces. and since it's a large package, it's also possible to get confused and have it off by one position.
2013-12-07 12:47 <wpwrak> so it's not the errors in the 0.1 mm range (general imprecision) that should worry you but the ones in the 0.25-0.5 mm range (caused by proper alignment, but with the wrong trace or with the space between traces)
2013-12-07 12:50 <nicksydney> maybe should try to rework the pcb and make it one sided only to make it easier for me to try it out
2013-12-07 12:54 <nicksydney> i'll try to do that for my exercise
2013-12-07 12:54 <nicksydney> when you say you do 'lpr filename' what is the file that you print...is that the .ps file ?
2013-12-07 12:54 <wpwrak> hmm, i'd recommend starting with a new design. just oled, mcu, and touch sensor
2013-12-07 12:55 <wpwrak> yes, the .ps
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2013-12-07 12:55 <wpwrak> oh, assuming you have a postscript interpreter in the path
2013-12-07 12:55 <wpwrak> not sure what happens with non-ps printers. i'd expect cups to take care of it.
2013-12-07 12:56 <wpwrak> (i only have ps printers. never worry about printer drivers :)
2013-12-07 12:56 <nicksydney> it generate few .ps files
2013-12-07 12:56 <nicksydney> which means i need to combine those files together ?
2013-12-07 12:57 <wpwrak> just print  anelok-F_Cu.ps and anelok-B_Cu.ps
2013-12-07 12:58 <wpwrak> the others are for other layers. layers you don't really need.
2013-12-07 13:06 <nicksydney> wpwrak:  i have the board in this picture http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/brd0-d1-top.jpg .. KL25Z
2013-12-07 13:06 <wpwrak> perfect
2013-12-07 13:07 <nicksydney> wpwrak: but it doesn't work in Linux .. need to flash a new bootloader as the current bootloader does not work with Linux..did you have to do the same with yours ?
2013-12-07 13:07 <wpwrak> then all you need is oled, the few caps and resistors for the oled, and the touch sensor
2013-12-07 13:07 <wpwrak> ah yes, i did that. wasn't painful.
2013-12-07 13:08 <wpwrak> see anelok/pgm/README
2013-12-07 13:08 <wpwrak> section "Updating/installing the P&E firmware"
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2013-12-07 13:15 <nicksydney> yes i'm reading that
2013-12-07 13:15 <nicksydney> the painful part is finding Windows box
2013-12-07 13:18 <nicksydney> wpwrak: if you look at this picture ... the board with anelok printout (http://ctrlv.in/267322) it shows that anelok is very small but if you look at your picture  ( http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/brd0-d1-top.jpg ) the size is almost the same...which makes me wonder whether the file i'm printing is correct in terms of size or i'm missing something
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2013-12-07 14:15 <rjeffries> xiangfu do you know what happened to remaining stock of Ben Nanonote? Thank you.
2013-12-07 14:29 <nicksydney> wpwrak: ok i'm bit lost here ..according to this product brief (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1691542.pdf) the MCU size is 7mm x 7mm while I measure thr printout the size for the MCU is aaround 3mm ... so there must be something wrong in the print out
2013-12-07 14:38 <rjeffries> nickydney if you munge wpwrak 's practical, step-by-step advice re: making PCBs into a guide, you (and he) could publish and help many people, including me.
2013-12-07 14:40 <nicksydney> rjeffries: wpwrak has published a tutorial about making PCB
2013-12-07 14:43 <rjeffries> yet you need to ask many questions, so it woudl seem the tutorial needs work. LOL just sayin'
2013-12-07 14:46 <nicksydney> :)...nah sometimes there are things that does not work according to documentation. .. so need to confirm
2013-12-07 14:49 <roh> yep. your printout looks wrong size
2013-12-07 14:49 <roh> maybe a metric/"§$%& problem.. maybe just factor 2
2013-12-07 15:07 <nicksydney> tried printing using File --> Print and selected 'Scale 3' from 'Approx. Scale' and I can get measurement for the MCU at 7mm x 7mm
2013-12-07 15:10 <roh> measure the longest side of the pcb
2013-12-07 15:10 <roh> biggest structure. the mcu is too small for a proper scale check
2013-12-07 15:21 <nicksydney> thanks roh...will try again tomorrow....
2013-12-07 15:21 <nicksydney> heading off to la-la-land :)
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2013-12-07 16:24 <wpwrak> nicksydney: it does look a little small. but ... where did you get the MCU size ? the square pad isn't 7x7 mm. it's only about 5x5 mm
2013-12-07 16:25 <wpwrak> nicksydney: in any case, in "plot", remove the check mark from "Exclude PCB edge layer from other layers". that way, you get the pcb border (you'll want this for positioning later on, too)
2013-12-07 16:25 <wpwrak> then you can measure the board dimensions. should be 25 x 80 mm
2013-12-07 16:27 <wpwrak> (i kinda wonder whether you really used "Plot" ... i don't even see PDF there, so it seems a bit surprising that you ended up with PDF insead of PS. well, maybe it's a difference between our versions. but still, strange)
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2013-12-07 17:59 <wpwrak> nicksydney: here's finally my etching setup: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/acid-box.jpg
2013-12-07 18:01 <wpwrak> all is is a plastic box. so i can move it out of harm's way. the small container (white lid) is what i use for most things. it's 10 x 10 cm. it sits in a larger glass container that catches any spills. not that spills would be very common - and when they happen, i just let them dry.
2013-12-07 18:07 <whitequark> yeah distortions are the worst :/
2013-12-07 18:07 <whitequark> I've once had my printer (driver?) add a nonlinear distortion somehow
2013-12-07 18:08 <whitequark> that was painful to debug
2013-12-07 18:24 <wpwrak> sounds suckish, yes
2013-12-07 19:15 <wpwrak> kewl. case snaps closed and wheel actually can be spun. first time ever :)
2013-12-07 19:15 <wpwrak> now i just wish the OLED wasn't dead ...
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2013-12-07 22:06 <nicksydney> wpwrak: this is where I get the MCU size dimension ... http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1691542.pdf .. page 8
2013-12-07 22:08 <nicksydney> wpwrak: this is what I'm seeing when I'm using File --> Plot .. http://ctrlv.in/267508 (top left saying PDF)
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2013-12-07 22:14 <nicksydney> wpwrak: this is my another attemp using 'Exlude PCB...' ... you see the measurement is seems very off .. http://ctrlv.in/267510
2013-12-07 22:14 <nicksydney> wpwrak: could it be that the driver is the issue ?
2013-12-07 22:14 <nicksydney> ok be back later going out first
2013-12-07 22:26 <wpwrak> (pdf) ah, interesting. so they added PDF recently. that's nice.
2013-12-07 22:28 <wpwrak> (size) 7x7 mm is correct. but that's the size of the chip, not the size of the center pad. so unless you calculate the size of the chip from what you see in the printed layout, you'll get something incorrect.
2013-12-07 22:28 <wpwrak> ah yes, that's rather small :)
2013-12-07 22:29 <wpwrak> that's about 37.5 mm
2013-12-07 22:29 <wpwrak> off by a factor 2.13
2013-12-07 22:30 <wpwrak> can you generate PS directly ? maybe something goes wrong when going PDF -> PS
2013-12-07 22:30 <wpwrak> could of course also be that the printer driver does weird things
2013-12-07 22:30 <wpwrak> at least your printer is good enough to handle even such tiny sizes. so you can keep up if i use smaller chips ;-)
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