2013-12-05 00:00 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-05 00:08 bummer that sharism.cc domain evaporated. but maybe it doesn't matter? qi-hardware.com is used more methinks. 2013-12-05 00:14 https://events.ccc.de/congress/2013/Fahrplan/events/5294.html The Exploration and Exploitation of an SD Memory Card 2013-12-05 00:14 sti.cki.ng -> http://www.crowdsupply.com/chibitronics/circuit-stickers 2013-12-05 00:15 sharism.cc was the shop. that shop stopped operating many months ago. so it makes sense in a way to shut down sharism.cc 2013-12-05 00:16 (sd card) nice. maybe anelok doesn't need an mcu after all ;-)) 2013-12-05 00:18 boot from the wireless, read new sd firmware from the card, reflash the card's firmware, then delegate control there. oh yes, even more advanced that broadcom's boot-through-the-gpu :) 2013-12-05 00:19 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-05 00:28 boot with no mcu from wireless? :? 2013-12-05 00:29 802.11omega 2013-12-05 00:32 https://events.ccc.de/congress/2013/Fahrplan/events/5545.html <- bitcoin hardware wallet 2013-12-05 00:32 there's going to be some interesting hardware talks at 30c3. Anyone going there? 2013-12-05 00:40 looked a the trezor a whole ago. limited in scope but the concept seems nice. 2013-12-05 00:43 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-05 00:43 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 00:46 wpwrak when you launch anelok on Indiegogo or similar place, maybe a "stretch" goal at significant extra funding could be a Bitcoin wallet? May be too demanding of CPU etc however... 2013-12-05 00:51 i like the idea of having a wallet. i don't so much like the idea of having this as a "stretch goal". stretch goals would basically have to be something that falls into your lap. 2013-12-05 00:51 otherwise you're putting your schedule at risk 2013-12-05 00:53 also, it's open, so anyone can develop things for it. it wouldn't make sense for me to promise a feature that someone else may make. in fact, if it promised it, that may prevent others from doing it 2013-12-05 00:56 of course, the better the thing sells, the more money will be there for new things. that could also mean better hardware. 2013-12-05 01:00 understood. silly me, focusing on what might create buzz. Bitcoin anything is so shiny 2013-12-05 01:06 oh, it is :) 2013-12-05 01:06 of course, the BTC hype is now. so maybe it should be a worldcoin wallet. or whatever the next one will be :) 2013-12-05 01:50 BTC is a PITA, for accepting payments 2013-12-05 01:52 and actually I fail to grok the whole concept, or rather the idea behind it. It's still depending on a centralized structure to log where which amount sits, AIUI 2013-12-05 01:53 why is it a PITA ? 2013-12-05 01:53 reports say they recently busted several drug dealers by monitoring that 2013-12-05 01:54 ah yes, it's not quite as anonymous as some people may think :) 2013-12-05 01:54 (that's not the PITA, the PITA is constantly changing exchange rates) 2013-12-05 01:55 yeah, that needs some flexibility :) 2013-12-05 01:55 probably the best approach is - if you want to play it safe - to convert what you absolutely must have immediately (or at least soon), keep the rest to see if it increases 2013-12-05 01:56 and add a safety margin on any BTC prices you announce 2013-12-05 01:58 there may actually be some money to be made in offering a service that pays a given amount of USD, EUR, etc., in exchange for BTC. basically "send us BTC X by 00:00 UTC today and we'll wire USD Y to the account you specify" 2013-12-05 01:58 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 01:59 the definition of "send" would be a bit tricky, of course, since as i understand it, a transfer may take a variable amount of time. and you probably don't have a proof of emission before the transfer completes. well, maybe you do. the experts will know :) 2013-12-05 02:01 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-05 02:01 wpwrak: mhm, please calculate 19% VAT on that 2013-12-05 02:01 an arrival deadline would work too, of course: you tell people how many hours/days they should initiate the transfer in advance, and it it arrives by the deadline you pay. otherwise you send it back (minus transfer fees and maybe a small handling fee) 2013-12-05 02:01 i don't think banks pay VAT on exchanges ;-) 2013-12-05 02:02 but the webshop has to do 2013-12-05 02:02 do pay Finanzamt with BTC? 2013-12-05 02:02 i'm talking about a payment service that would solve your "BTC is too volatile" problem 2013-12-05 02:03 how you calculate your EUR prices is still your problem :) 2013-12-05 02:03 toldya: PITA 2013-12-05 02:04 wpwrak: transaction speed depends on fee 2013-12-05 02:05 and actually some "proof" of transaction is available almost instantly - but if you want to be immune to some frauds, you have to wait for more confirms 2013-12-05 02:06 DocScrutinizer05: only if such a service doesn't exist. otherwise, it's like accepting EUR. 2013-12-05 02:06 on typical, recommended fee it's the matter of 10-15 minutes 2013-12-05 02:06 webshop needs to send out an invoice, drawn on EUR, with 19% VAT which you will have to pay to tax office 2013-12-05 02:06 it needs to do that just in time 2013-12-05 02:07 with zero fee - it may be almost infinity, or may be 10-15 minutes as well - depending on your luck 2013-12-05 02:07 afaik 2013-12-05 02:07 this whole BTC feels like a bic rippoff 2013-12-05 02:08 big even 2013-12-05 02:10 it's an interesting idea and even more interesting implementation, but for it to work well as a currency it needs some exchange rate that's not just a function of demand :P 2013-12-05 02:11 every currency works on the basis of some entity controlling it 2013-12-05 02:11 and some charts that do not look like a giant bubble 2013-12-05 02:11 http://bitcoinwisdom.com/ - choose 3d 2013-12-05 02:12 and every modern currency works on the basis of infinite but closely controlled resources - I.E. *somebody* cna always print enough dollars 2013-12-05 02:13 BTC is limited by math, i heard 2013-12-05 02:13 oh yes, the fun with btc will start when mining ends and there's no flow of new coins 2013-12-05 02:13 dos1: no 3D in settings here 2013-12-05 02:13 wpwrak: i mean time period, 3 days :) 2013-12-05 02:13 in 3 years or whatever, the last Bitcoin will be calculated, and then that's it 2013-12-05 02:14 ah yes, taking off quite nicely :) 2013-12-05 02:14 of course, if you want crazy, try LTC :) 2013-12-05 02:15 yeah, almost 50x up in one month 2013-12-05 02:16 DocScrutinizer05: "regular" currencies have a huge bubble too, thanks to all the "virtual" money made through derivatives 2013-12-05 02:16 and I considered buying some 2 or 3 litecoins back when they were at $1 2013-12-05 02:16 of course turned out to be too lazy :) 2013-12-05 02:16 DocScrutinizer05: so their only safety is that not enough people accept that they're about as bad a BTC 2013-12-05 02:17 dos1: you can still mine them. with a decent PC, you may be able to get 2-3 per year ;-) 2013-12-05 02:17 yup, I know :D 2013-12-05 02:18 dos1: multiply with 10 if you have a top-notch GPU 2013-12-05 02:18 and what's the saddest 2013-12-05 02:18 o.O 2013-12-05 02:19 I wanted to mine some btc few years ago, when it just started 2013-12-05 02:19 just because it seemed cool idea 2013-12-05 02:19 I installed the client and thought that it's enough 2013-12-05 02:19 yeah, back when 2013-12-05 02:20 checked after few days - it was doing something with cpu, but still 0 btc 2013-12-05 02:20 so I just went "meh" and removed it 2013-12-05 02:21 that much about becoming a millionaire. now go back to washing dishes :) 2013-12-05 02:21 now when I know a bit about it, seems like it was eating some cpu when keeping in sync with blockchain, and of course mining had to be turned on by some console option 2013-12-05 02:21 heh. tricky :) 2013-12-05 02:22 I guess back then I could easily mine full blocks on CPU and get some 50 BTC rewards 2013-12-05 02:22 worth some fraction of cent back then :) 2013-12-05 02:22 so you blew your early retirement 2013-12-05 02:23 well... I guess I'd probably have sold it already by now :D 2013-12-05 02:24 but maybe if I'd forget about them at all and just remind myself about it right now 2013-12-05 02:24 wpwrak: seems like my prayer has been answered http://www.officeworks.com.au/retail/products/Technology/Printers/Laser-Printers-and-Multifunctions/Mono-Laser-Printers/FXP205B# ... what you think ? 2013-12-05 02:24 then yeah... awful :P 2013-12-05 02:26 "This is a GDI printer and is not compatible with Linux and UNIT operating systems." 2013-12-05 02:27 nice, so there are people in IT support who still can't spell "UNIX" :) 2013-12-05 02:27 but according to this, that "official" answer may be wrong; http://askubuntu.com/questions/98016/alternative-printer-driver-for-fuji-xerox-docuprint-p205b 2013-12-05 02:29 dang ! 2013-12-05 02:29 naw, what this says is that it's probably okay. but you need foo2hbpl: http://foo2hbpl.rkkda.com/ 2013-12-05 02:30 apparently toner is $$$ but the, if you only use it for toner transfer, the initial kit will last a very very long time 2013-12-05 02:32 something like a for a century or two 2013-12-05 02:34 this guy seems happy with it: http://www.electronicspoint.com/toner-transfer-pcbs-having-bga-packages-them-t246521.html 2013-12-05 02:34 wpwrak: yeah my plan is to use that for the toner transfer .. but once in a while can be used as backup printer in case my son's printer go bonker :) 2013-12-05 02:35 i saw this laminator hack http://ultrakeet.com.au/write-ups/superFuserV2 ... and the laminator is sold at the same store for $16 2013-12-05 02:36 but i need to buy the 10-Amp thermostat which is costing $10 :( 2013-12-05 02:38 phew. that's what i call brute force 2013-12-05 02:38 i modded mine to run more slowly. so no significantly increased meltdown risk. 2013-12-05 02:39 the circuit that does the trick is a PIC with a relay, cutting power to the motor at ~1 Hz. crude but works :) 2013-12-05 02:40 (don't remember the duty cycle) 2013-12-05 02:41 damn the thermostat is quite expensive 2013-12-05 02:42 unless i buy from HK :) http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2-Pcs-190C-Celsius-N-C-2-Flat-Pin-Terminal-Ceramic-Thermostat-10-Amp-AC-250V-/400553516499?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item5d42d99dd3 2013-12-05 03:12 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-05 03:22 WOW those guys are... brave^H^H^H^H MAD! 2013-12-05 03:22 *soldering* a 240°C thermal fuse (RS# 1769356) 2013-12-05 03:23 I gues the could simply replace the fuse by a few cm of the solder wire 2013-12-05 03:25 nicksydney: when you plan to hw-mod that http://ultrakeet.com.au/write-ups/superFuserV2 stuff, I *urgently* recommend to CRIMP stuff and not use soldering *anywhere* 2013-12-05 03:26 ;-)) 2013-12-05 03:28 DocScrutinizer05: you're just jealous. you already had your apartment fire, so you can never have that "first time" experience again. the confusion, the delightful agony, the realization that you may survive after all, ... 2013-12-05 03:28 yeah :-S 2013-12-05 03:29 DocScrutinizer05: sorry don't understand what you mean crimp ? which part ? 2013-12-05 03:29 but this one as well might end in electrocution 2013-12-05 03:29 DocScrutinizer05: thanks for the heads up...anything to make me stay alive :) 2013-12-05 03:29 nicksydney: *all* parts 2013-12-05 03:30 don't even *think* about using your soldering iron on that thing 2013-12-05 03:30 nicksydney: what he's saying is that, after the modification, the critter will operate at or near the temperature at which the solder melts. 2013-12-05 03:31 wpwrak: ahhhh gotcha. 2013-12-05 03:31 of course, what may be even more interesting are the flash points (i think that's the right word ?) of all the inflammable materials in the area :) 2013-12-05 03:31 any tips on how to crimp the right way 2013-12-05 03:32 there are hollow rivets 2013-12-05 03:32 usually used to treat wire ends that are braid copper 2013-12-05 03:33 nicksydney: i like your determination :) 2013-12-05 03:33 http://www.google.de/images?hl=en-DE&q=aderendhuelse&gbv=2&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ei=6fOfUo6eMZOIhQee_YH4Aw&ved=0CDkQsAQ 2013-12-05 03:34 and http://www.google.de/images?q=crimpzange&hl=en-DE&gbv=2&oq=crimpzange&gs_l=img.3..0j0i24l5.42229.45725.0.46396.10.6.0.4.4.0.73.417.6.6.0....0...1ac.1.24.img..0.10.427.bEHddDIPFNA 2013-12-05 03:34 first it looks a little .. let's say strange. then you get suspicious. then you see the warning signs. then somebody tells you. then you see the little crucifices on the roadside. then you hear the screaming. ... :) 2013-12-05 03:35 looks like it's easier to use iron 2013-12-05 03:35 safer i guess :) 2013-12-05 03:35 yes 2013-12-05 03:36 this hw mod would make me feel a tad uncomfortable 2013-12-05 03:36 i think i stick with iron for now and worry about laminator for next time until i know what i'm doing ..don't want to have disaster working with high voltage 2013-12-05 03:36 allright so will buy the printer only in that case 2013-12-05 03:37 my approach: battery-powered MCU + relay on the (mains) power supply to the motor. battery-powered so that i don't have to build a proper power supply. quick and dirty but it works. oh, and apply acrylic spray (isolation) generously on that pcb :) 2013-12-05 03:37 does this paper sounds good for printing the pcb design http://www.officeworks.com.au/retail/products/Office-Supplies/Paper/Photo-Paper/Gloss-Photo-Paper/INHPD8008 ? 2013-12-05 03:37 nicksydney: printer first sounds good to me 2013-12-05 03:37 * DocScrutinizer05 waves 2013-12-05 03:38 * DocScrutinizer05 heads out to get some milk and pretzel 2013-12-05 03:39 DocScrutinizer05: .....and don't forget some yogurt :) .hahaha 2013-12-05 03:39 (paper) looks decent enough. you may want to get a few papers and then try how well they work 2013-12-05 03:39 ROTFL >>If anything CATCHES FIRE, we're not responsible (seriously, don't even attempt this modification)<< 2013-12-05 03:39 the mixture is basically: paper, amount of alcoholic cleaning you apply to the paper, and then the heating process 2013-12-05 03:41 wpwrak: "alchholic cleaning you apply to the paper" ..do you mean that I need to clean the paper first with alcohol ? 2013-12-05 03:41 >>Solder as quickly as possible to avoid destroying the fuse!<<< MUHAHAHAHAAAAHAAA 2013-12-05 03:42 nicksydney: some papers have some sort of gelatine on top. if you remove that, it'll work better. you need to apply a bit of alcohol (can be very little, can be a little more. don't soak the paper, though. else it'll take forever to dry.), then wipe off the sludge with a paper towel 2013-12-05 03:43 IN!CRED!IBLE! 2013-12-05 03:44 DocScrutinizer05: then place the large bags of fertilizer right underneath and apply a generous quantity of diesel ... 2013-12-05 03:44 yeah 2013-12-05 03:44 wpwrak: can i use nail acetone ? 2013-12-05 03:44 wpwrak: my wife got few lying around :_) 2013-12-05 03:44 no 2013-12-05 03:45 contains oil 2013-12-05 03:45 nicksydney: and it's usually too aggressive 2013-12-05 03:45 oh ok ... what kind of alcohol you recommend 2013-12-05 03:45 bbl 2013-12-05 03:45 isoprophylic is the usual cleaning choice. you can get it at high purity. 2013-12-05 03:46 unless they're nasty taxes on it, also high-concentration ethylene (from the supermarket) will work 2013-12-05 03:47 let me check from a website 2013-12-05 03:49 this .. http://www.chemistwarehouse.com.au/product.asp?id=40678 ? 2013-12-05 03:49 isoprophylic is also used as a spray. that's convenient for cleaning stuff. of course, more it's expensive than just as a liquid. 2013-12-05 03:50 or perhaps from this http://shop.pharmacydirect.com.au/pharmacy/Isopropyl%20Alcohol ? 2013-12-05 03:51 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-05 03:51 i wish they indicated the concentration/purity 2013-12-05 03:52 well, it's probably written on the back of the bottle 2013-12-05 03:52 ok will check later in their store 2013-12-05 03:55 http://www.isocol.com.au/ -> "99% OF GERMS! USE ISOCOL" ;-) 2013-12-05 03:55 but since they have "100%" stuff there, the rest of probably high-purity as well 2013-12-05 03:57 wonders if maybe DRINKING alcohol when making PCBs using laser printer is also effective? 2013-12-05 03:57 wpwrak: you think that should be ok ? 2013-12-05 03:58 btw, this is the spray version: http://www.edelta.com.ar/edelta/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypagem&product_id=535&category_id=70&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=1 2013-12-05 03:58 yeah, looks okay-ish 2013-12-05 03:58 and yes, drinking steadies the hands :) 2013-12-05 03:59 and calms the mind 2013-12-05 04:05 they probably had a bottle of sibierian permafrost vodka before making that laminator mod. very calm mind. no fear at all :) 2013-12-05 04:09 wpwrak: hahahhahha 2013-12-05 04:12 this is a nice one: https://www.schneier.com/news-072.html 2013-12-05 04:12 the best is at the end. "two eyes" :) 2013-12-05 04:17 99% of germs use isocol? wow, what uses the remaining 1%? 2013-12-05 04:18 what are using the remaining 1%? ? 2013-12-05 04:18 they probably use 100% H2O2 for their dental hygiene 2013-12-05 04:19 after vigorously shaking the bottle, of course 2013-12-05 04:36 wpwrak: i think this is the right one http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=NA1066 ? 2013-12-05 04:42 yeah, that's good ! 2013-12-05 04:43 awesome !...tonight is the night.... 2013-12-05 04:43 going to buy those 2 ...late shoping tonight 2013-12-05 04:43 hehe. nothing like an early xmas :) 2013-12-05 04:46 yeah true....especially doing something new ...really excite me... 2013-12-05 04:46 the other thing i need is the kit to remove copper from the pcb 2013-12-05 04:47 what you think about this http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=HG9990 ? 2013-12-05 04:48 just realised that kit does not have the chemical needed 2013-12-05 04:48 only the tray and few tools and copper 2013-12-05 04:52 wpwrak: you mention " HCl + H2O2 is a LOT better than ferric chloride. you can find the ingredients everywhere, it's a clean liquid and it stays clear (unlike FeCl with all the black sludge building up in there), it works perfectly at room temperature (FeCl: wants heating), and you can just store and reuse it " 2013-12-05 04:52 1 x 100g Sachet of Sodium Persulphate etchant 2013-12-05 04:54 DocScrutinizer05: my chem is not that superb :)...any humanly name like for example dish soap or something :) 2013-12-05 04:55 wpwrak: that seems too complicated and difficult to find..unless I can find it through household items 2013-12-05 04:55 :) 2013-12-05 04:56 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natriumpersulfat 2013-12-05 04:57 http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=HG9990 has etchant 2013-12-05 04:57 actually a rather good one 2013-12-05 04:57 though not stable, it will deteriorate once you used it 2013-12-05 04:58 true...so at least for few times use should be ok 2013-12-05 04:58 yes 2013-12-05 04:59 don't heat the etching bath to more than 50°C since that speeds up the deterioration of the Na2S2O8 2013-12-05 04:59 is it better to add hot water ? 2013-12-05 04:59 * DocScrutinizer05 idly wonders if wpwrak would accept Na2S2O8 as a substitute for the fertilizer mentioned before 2013-12-05 05:01 well, adding hot water speeds up the time til etching kicks in, you don't need to heat it in the bath container 2013-12-05 05:01 Na2S2O8 is a salt 2013-12-05 05:01 you need to add water anyway 2013-12-05 05:02 I guess they have a blurb 2013-12-05 05:02 where they explain exactly what to do 2013-12-05 05:02 the PCB seems to be coated with photoresist 2013-12-05 05:04 so instead of transferring the toner, you could try exposing the PCB-coated via a transparent foil with the toner on it 2013-12-05 05:04 ok once i have it will go through instruction or some sort blurb 2013-12-05 05:04 expose it without ultraviolet right ? 2013-12-05 05:05 it's a photopositive, so the areas that get exposed to light will vanish aiui. Rather they will vanish when you "develop" the PCB in developer bath 2013-12-05 05:05 then you can etch 2013-12-05 05:05 the traces should be protected by the non-exposed photoresist 2013-12-05 05:06 ah ok 2013-12-05 05:06 understood 2013-12-05 05:06 boy you guys are smart :) 2013-12-05 05:06 * nicksydney bow down to DocScrutinizer05 and wpwrak 2013-12-05 05:07 get overhead foil for your printer! 2013-12-05 05:08 to print the layout on it 2013-12-05 05:08 needs to be laserprinter-proof 2013-12-05 05:08 this is IMPORTANT 2013-12-05 05:09 DocScrutinizer05: glossy paper for laser printer should do fine ? 2013-12-05 05:10 then - after printing layout - you check the thing holding it against the light, and see if there are any holes or sth. Use a touch-up pen to fix those holes 2013-12-05 05:10 DocScrutinizer05: ok 2013-12-05 05:10 DocScrutinizer05: this kind of glossy paper -- http://www.officeworks.com.au/retail/search/glossy+photo+paper 2013-12-05 05:10 for exposure to the photoresist you neet transparent 2013-12-05 05:10 ohh ok 2013-12-05 05:11 something like this http://www.officeworks.com.au/retail/products/Technology/Projectors/Overhead-Projectors/ACPP100C20 2013-12-05 05:11 btw it's a good idea to make the toner on the downside of the transparent foil, directly on top of the photoresist, so you have no light bleeding under the black traces 2013-12-05 05:13 hmm probably should fit. Copier works like laserprinter 2013-12-05 05:14 take care! whatever method you use, both need the layout printed mirrored to what it shall be on PCB! 2013-12-05 05:15 ideally you write some letters like "TOP" on the layout, at a location where it doesn't interfere with your electrical traces 2013-12-05 05:16 then you'll notice easily later on when you got something the wrong way round 2013-12-05 05:16 no kidding, I already created and etched and drilled mirrored PCBs. Then I started swearing 2013-12-05 05:20 (([2013-12-05 06:04:46] expose it without ultraviolet right ?)) there will be instructions how and how long to expose. IIRC it's something like "30s of full noon sun. OR 5 min under a 30W FL lamp, at 50cm distance)" 2013-12-05 05:20 but yes, afaik basically UV 2013-12-05 05:21 so handling isn't really that hard, when you sit in a dark room with one dim incandescent lamp 2013-12-05 05:21 instructions paper will elaborate on all this 2013-12-05 05:24 when the photoresist layout looks crappy after developing, don't go for etching it. Just expose and complete board and remove the remaining resist with developer, then clean up the board with abrassive clening powder (from your kitchen) so it's constantly matte, and then go for the toner transfer method 2013-12-05 05:24 s/and com/com/ 2013-12-05 05:24 DocScrutinizer05 meant: "when the photoresist layout looks crappy after developing, don't go for etching it. Just expose complete board and remove the remaining resist with developer, then clean up the board with abrassive clening powder (from your kitchen) so it's constantly matte, and then go for the toner transfer method" 2013-12-05 05:26 wpwrak: seen the copper recycling with steel wool recommendation for Na2S2O8 ? 2013-12-05 05:26 ;-D 2013-12-05 05:51 DocScrutinizer05 specs for your Neo900 are impressive. the work wpwrak is doing with BTLE might benefit your project. 2013-12-05 05:52 hmm maybe, though I doubt we will have a BT module that can profit from any such work 2013-12-05 05:53 I really like how the project exposes several useful interfaces, including I2C and RS232. any chance you might expose SPI also 2013-12-05 05:53 my thought is your design could incorportae the BT chip wpwrak has selected. 2013-12-05 05:53 ooops, the RS232 should have gone already, we probably won't support that anymore 2013-12-05 05:54 ok, not a biggie. re RS232 2013-12-05 05:54 SPI woudl be handy however 2013-12-05 05:54 we'll see what can get done 2013-12-05 05:54 somebody on your project must be a serious audio nut 2013-12-05 05:55 hmm, that's prolly me 2013-12-05 05:55 fair enough. on e thinks of a use case as a nice portable recording kit. using Audacity maybe 2013-12-05 05:55 iirc I pushed Nikolaus to have line-in, back when 2013-12-05 05:56 yep, something like that should be possible 2013-12-05 05:56 I'd honestly like to have built in stereo mic 2013-12-05 05:57 though I'm not convinced about the mini-micro's quality for HiFi recording 2013-12-05 05:57 yeah that would be great. but a way to have two lavalier mics one for interview subject, one for interviewer, recorded on seperate tracks... 2013-12-05 05:58 I am not a music guy. think more of NPR-ish (apiratioal) podcasts 2013-12-05 05:58 well, you got line-in for that. I will try to make sure it comes with micbias for power, and a proper mic pre-amp 2013-12-05 05:58 ok 2013-12-05 05:59 but hey, probably you could use internal mic for one and BT headset mic for the other 2013-12-05 05:59 when do you exhaust supply of Nokia cases and keyboards 2013-12-05 05:59 and mix up to a stereo track 2013-12-05 05:59 cases are our least problem, they are abundance 2013-12-05 06:00 though mostly of inferior quality 2013-12-05 06:00 Did Nokia keep a warehouse of them or some such 2013-12-05 06:00 nah, chinese knock-offs 2013-12-05 06:00 I see. Had no idea... 2013-12-05 06:00 in white, silver, gold, and even original black 2013-12-05 06:01 hope keyboard feel is not too bad... 2013-12-05 06:01 we'll either use original Nokia domesheets, or build our own 2013-12-05 06:01 what is current state of software? sorry, I have not been following your project 2013-12-05 06:02 keymat is a piece of plastic 2013-12-05 06:02 we're not doing software 2013-12-05 06:02 let's hope a serious community forms 2013-12-05 06:02 and does not piss in too many different directions.. LOL 2013-12-05 06:03 there's FPTF 2013-12-05 06:03 and replicant 2013-12-05 06:03 and SHR which dos1 will take care about, he said 2013-12-05 06:04 I see FPTF as the main battlefield and primary OS for Neo900 2013-12-05 06:04 my image of Neo900 is it is a pocket computer tha happens to also support a phone and mobile data LTE or HSPA and has a middling camet=ra as well 2013-12-05 06:04 well, actually the OS is not called FPTF 2013-12-05 06:05 yes, that's exactly what N900 and Neo900 are 2013-12-05 06:07 if they can get Maemo woring more or less that's pretty sweet 2013-12-05 06:07 does it look like 1 GB RAM will be feasible? 2013-12-05 06:08 well, see the FPTF thread. I have no doubt we will get it working for the most part. There are a few nasty parts like audio management and particularly modem/call audio. And liblocation (GPS et al) 2013-12-05 06:08 DocScrutinizer05: looking to run Android on it too ;) 2013-12-05 06:09 1GB RAM depends on whether we can source the RAM chips 2013-12-05 06:09 chances for that are way better when we ask for 1000 than when we only need 250 2013-12-05 06:09 ok. all in good time. I think 1GB RAM will be very VERY sweet 2013-12-05 06:10 of course. I suspect you may get to N=1,000 2013-12-05 06:10 http://projects.goldelico.com/p/neo900/issues/516/ 2013-12-05 06:15 well, for now we're idling at 215 2013-12-05 06:15 long way till 1000 2013-12-05 06:22 Mistah_Darcy_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 06:25 Mistah_Darcy has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-05 06:32 LOL! NSA records 5E9 location update records of mobile phones worldwide - per DAY 2013-12-05 06:32 Mistah_Darcy has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 06:34 Mistah_Darcy_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-05 06:57 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 07:05 basically almost everybody 2013-12-05 07:11 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-05 07:18 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 07:52 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 08:07 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 08:11 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 08:12 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 08:25 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-05 08:32 maybe not 2013-12-05 08:32 when that bot could calculate. I'd say 2013-12-05 08:32 ~5*10**9 / 200*10**6 2013-12-05 08:33 and conclude that americans alone can easily create 5 billion location updates per day 2013-12-05 08:34 http://slashdot.org/submission/3160237/neo900-hacker-phone-reaches-minimum-number-of-pre-orders-for-production 2013-12-05 08:35 I have a hard time to see how they could collect any comprehensive coverage of cell handover / loation update data from German carriers 2013-12-05 08:37 they'd need either a monitor RX network covering *all* BTS, or a spyware/tap to all carrier's location register servers (or whatstheterm) 2013-12-05 08:40 anyway I will make sure you can monitor the Neo900 modem not only for active handover (LAC change, TX) but also for cell handover in same LAC, and particularly for *all* TX as well as all activation of modem-internal GPS 2013-12-05 08:41 and of course make sure GPS is "deaf" when not enabled by user 2013-12-05 09:06 lekernel_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 09:06 lekernel has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-05 09:31 carriers probably hand them the data on a silver tablet 2013-12-05 09:58 not really. Rather they don't even notice. I just recall the standardized wiretap-interface that every carrier needs to provide to authorities 2013-12-05 09:58 I bet NSA knows how to log in there 2013-12-05 10:00 only carriers with iirc <1000 users don't need this interface 2013-12-05 10:02 and best of all: the specs say carrier MUST NOT have any means to tell, who and when accessed which data via that interface 2013-12-05 10:02 :-P 2013-12-05 10:05 argh. you close your eyes for moment and you get this :-( 2013-12-05 10:05 jow_laptop has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-12-05 10:05 that pcb eching kits is for the photochemical process. that's the ancient, messy approach. toner transfer skips all this. 2013-12-05 10:06 jow_laptop has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 10:07 http://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_es/201600_201699/201671/01.01.01_60/es_201671v010101p.pdf 2013-12-05 10:09 for photochemical you nees: special coated PCB + transparent positive/negative mask (transparent film) -> UV light (sunlight or special lamp) -> developer (chemical) -> and then the etching 2013-12-05 10:09 you close your eyes? that's pretty silly! :-P 2013-12-05 10:10 for toner transfer it's: uncoated PCB (i.e., just copper, no chemicals) -> toner transfer paper (not transparent, with toner on it) -> heat (iron) -> etching 2013-12-05 10:10 DocScrutinizer05: yeah, i should stop doing that :) 2013-12-05 10:11 jow_laptop has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-05 10:11 jow_laptop has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 10:14 DocScrutinizer05: (case colors) what, no "hello kitty" ? :) 2013-12-05 10:15 wpwrak: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/12/new-usb-type-c-connector-is-smaller-reversible-supports-usb-3-1/ 2013-12-05 10:15 you forgot the proper cleaning and mechanical treatment of the PCB for toner transfer 2013-12-05 10:16 while you can forget this for the already coated photoresist PCBs 2013-12-05 10:16 (neo900) so there's no freemantle ? i thought that was your main direction ? or is FPTF another name for FM ? 2013-12-05 10:16 a) fremantle b) Fremantle Porting Task Force 2013-12-05 10:18 DocScrutinizer05: (FM) hmm, in a world where everything is f* (free), you'd think they'd keep the "M" :) 2013-12-05 10:19 hmm? 2013-12-05 10:21 (photoresist) well, true. but what happens if you need a small board ? can you even cut the critters properly ? and then, storing the part you didn't use. also, requiring photo-coating limits your board choices. 2013-12-05 10:21 yes 2013-12-05 10:21 and if course it's quite incompatible with DIY CNC. luckily, that won't be nick's problem :) 2013-12-05 10:22 just saying. When he got the photocoated PCB anyway, why not try it? 2013-12-05 10:23 rjeffries: (usb c) they still don't show what it'll look like. seems that they don't know themselves. so i'd treat all that as vapourware so far. it's design goals, not a design. 2013-12-05 10:24 HAH! my concept is further evolved already ;-P 2013-12-05 10:25 DocScrutinizer05: indeed, we already know that yours can't exist. we still have to make that step for the new USB-V :) ("-V" since it's vapour, and the letter is conveniently located right next to C) 2013-12-05 10:25 it can't exist in your mind, since you fail to understand it 2013-12-05 10:27 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-05 10:28 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 10:29 yeah, governed by the mercilessly strict laws of physics ;-) 2013-12-05 10:29 (ptotocoated pcb) ah well, it'll be a fine mess if he tries to mix a photo process with non-photo ... 2013-12-05 10:32 Luke-Jr has quit [Excess Flood] 2013-12-05 10:33 Luke-Jr has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 10:34 (physics) sure, there are clear physical laws that forbit lifting of elephants with a microfibre 2013-12-05 10:34 forbid even 2013-12-05 10:35 I'm sure you picked your parameters so the result of your funny evaluation was the one you hoped for 2013-12-05 10:36 btw accusing me of projecting a *physically* impossible spec is rather insulting 2013-12-05 10:36 you should team up with Andrea Rossi, the great inventor of the cold fusion reactor :) 2013-12-05 10:36 okay let 2013-12-05 10:36 you should team up with a few other trolls I know 2013-12-05 10:36 's say "implausible" :) 2013-12-05 10:37 the troll, pinnacle of evolution on the intertubes :) 2013-12-05 10:38 the last "plausible" concern I heard from your side been "maybe I never seen what you'd call 'decent' earphone cords" 2013-12-05 10:38 sorry I'm not wasting my time for gossip on that level 2013-12-05 10:40 since I have other definition of "physically impossible" 2013-12-05 10:40 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-12-05 10:41 I already explained how my concept could stand pulling forces that a microusb would answer with simply lifting off the PCB 2013-12-05 10:41 and that's rugged enough in my book 2013-12-05 10:44 but probably that's been just another few lines that got stuck in the magic spamfilter 2013-12-05 10:44 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 10:44 don't worry, i understand the benefits of connectors that just fall off when abused 2013-12-05 10:45 I don't worry about your comments regarding this topic any more - don't worry 2013-12-05 10:45 ;-) 2013-12-05 10:47 it's abslutely clear to me that they have no value for actually evaluating the concept 2013-12-05 10:48 you got your notion and you wanna keep it and to do so you ignore stuff I *repeat* 3 times. Fine with me 2013-12-05 10:49 dos1 has quit [Client Quit] 2013-12-05 10:53 on an unrelated topic: nobody suggested mixing of any processes 2013-12-05 10:53 oops, sound related in a weird way 2013-12-05 10:54 DocScrutinizer05 has left #qi-hardware ["Konversation terminated!"] 2013-12-05 10:59 well, that will happen if i guide him through a toner transfer process and you encourage him to get equipped for photochemical ;-) 2013-12-05 11:00 sure, you didn't come up with the idea. but i think we was clear from the preceding discussion what we were talking about toner transfer ... 2013-12-05 11:01 jow_laptop has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-12-05 11:15 jow_laptop has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 11:20 jow_laptop has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-12-05 11:27 jow_laptop has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 11:29 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 13:04 wej has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-05 13:09 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 13:10 paul_boddie has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 13:10 On the PCB topic: http://www.coolcomponents.co.uk/pcb-fab-in-a-box-kit.html 2013-12-05 13:15 Mistah_Darcy_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 13:16 Mistah_Darcy has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-12-05 13:22 basic toner transfer kit. i wonder what the green/white TRF foil is supposed to accomplish, though. once the toner is one the board, you can just proceed to etching ... 2013-12-05 13:23 hmm. http://www.coolcomponents.co.uk/pcb-green-trf-foil.html 2013-12-05 13:23 i'd say they need better toner transfer paper ;-) 2013-12-05 13:24 in a way, the white one makes sense, though: http://www.abra-electronics.com/products/TRF%252dWHITE-Toner-Reactive-Foil-%252d-White.html 2013-12-05 13:24 of course, if you really want to go through all that trouble and also add silk screen, you may approach the point where you're better off just getting your board industrially made 2013-12-05 13:25 if you want the silk screen just for some small markings (e.g., pin 1 and such), you can also draw them with copper instead, avoiding any additional overhead 2013-12-05 13:26 for example, in the middle of http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/anelok-20131005.png 2013-12-05 13:27 the upper right corner of the large QFN (the MCU) has a little white triangle. that's the silk screen marker for pin 1. right outside of it is another green triangle. that's a copper. in a DIY board, i don't have the silk screen but i do of course have the copper 2013-12-05 13:28 and when we look at the real board: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/brd0-d1-bot.jpg 2013-12-05 13:38 there's that little triangle, in the same corner as the white dot on the package, i.e., i put the chip with the correct orientation :) 2013-12-05 14:33 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-12-05 14:41 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 15:01 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 15:15 michael_lee has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 2013-12-05 15:28 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 15:30 lekernel_ is now known as lekernel 2013-12-05 15:37 What does this progression of projects tell us, if anything: OpenMoko, Ben Nanonote, Neo900? 2013-12-05 15:40 Those three projects had the goal of radical open-ness. For OpenMoko and Ben Nanonote, very VERY few dogs ate the (delicious...) dog food. Can Neo900 change this dynamic? One hopes so... 2013-12-05 15:50 Have you looked at this Improv stuff, rjeffries? 2013-12-05 16:07 i wouldn't include the Ben in that progression. the ben is a different branch (still closely related). it's more like openmoko - gta04 - neo900 2013-12-05 16:09 and yes, eating one's own dog food was an issue with openmoko. not sure about the ben - i used / am using it for things while i used all my openmoko phones maybe for two days in total. 2013-12-05 16:10 I tried to use my openmoko 2013-12-05 16:11 but it most of the time didn't work ;) 2013-12-05 16:27 panda|w530 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-05 16:32 panda|w530 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 16:46 larsc: i just do not like phones... but i think that has nothing to do with openmoko but the fact that phones are massively intrusive, broken, old way of communicating and the quality of service is that shitty now, that id rather write than speak 2013-12-05 17:37 Agreed: if you buy a phone, you don't want to have to keep another one to actually use as a phone. 2013-12-05 17:38 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 18:04 viric has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-05 18:12 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 18:38 panda|w530 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-05 19:05 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 19:40 wolfspraul has quit [Quit: leaving] 2013-12-05 19:40 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 19:44 wolfspraul: Hope you don't mind that I updated the purchasing details on qi-hardware.com for the NanoNote. 2013-12-05 19:50 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 19:57 huh, this is cool 2013-12-05 19:57 http://hi-tech.mail.ru/news/misc/YotaPhone_live.html 2013-12-05 19:57 a russian smartphone with lcd and eink displays on different sides 2013-12-05 19:57 allegedly first in the world 2013-12-05 20:02 FDCX has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-12-05 20:04 hah seems like I'm one of those few 2013-12-05 20:05 I'm using gta02 as main phone for five years, with short n900 break 2013-12-05 20:06 looking forward to replace it with neo900 2013-12-05 20:16 dos1: rafa would be the other one, i think :) (using gta02) 2013-12-05 20:16 FDCX has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 20:17 whitequark: make it just e-ink and we can talk about bold decisions :) 2013-12-05 20:43 arielenter has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2013-12-05 20:43 arielenter has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 20:46 arielenter1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 20:47 arielenter has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-12-05 20:48 nicksydney has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 2013-12-05 20:58 arielenter1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2013-12-05 21:12 rz2k has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-12-05 21:13 qwebirc69454 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 21:13 qwebirc69454 is now known as nicksydney 2013-12-05 22:06 nicksydney_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-12-05 22:06 nicksydney has quit [Quit: Page closed] 2013-12-05 22:07 /msg NickServ identify Tonypet2012__ 2013-12-05 22:07 nicksydney_ is now known as nicksydney 2013-12-05 22:07 that was silly... 2013-12-05 22:08 nicksydney: you better change that password now ;) 2013-12-05 22:08 shit !! didn't see that 2013-12-05 22:08 crap 2013-12-05 22:08 i did changes just now 2013-12-05 22:08 F***** 2013-12-05 22:08 hot stupid i am 2013-12-05 22:08 grrrrr.....mind is everywhere :( 2013-12-05 22:09 switch to using Quassel not from web irc 2013-12-05 22:09 lekernel has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 2013-12-05 22:09