2013-11-30 00:17 nicksydney: ah, and your editor seems to like putting spaces at the end of lines. it's better to remove them, so that a line really ends where one sees it end, kinda ASCII WYSIWYG :) 2013-11-30 00:22 kilae has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 25.0.1/20131112160018]] 2013-11-30 00:47 dandon has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-11-30 00:55 nicksydney: btw, are you subscribed yet to the qi-hw list ? that's where everything surrounding qi-hw that's a little more permanent than IRC happens. http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/ 2013-11-30 01:00 pcercuei has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-11-30 01:01 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-30 01:16 pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo] 2013-11-30 01:29 [commit] Paul Cercueil: Output log to /var/log/gmenu2x.log (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/246fd86 2013-11-30 01:29 [commit] Paul Cercueil: InputDialog: Make SETTINGS button confirm and MENU button cancel (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/61a79cd 2013-11-30 01:33 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-11-30 02:00 michael_lee has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-30 02:46 the bookshelf has new data sheets ! (cc2543) 2013-11-30 05:07 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-11-30 07:36 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-30 09:36 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-30 09:55 "[Gitorious] Activity: nicksydney pushed 0 commits to mast..." 2013-11-30 09:55 somehow, their notifications seem to need a bit more work ;-) 2013-11-30 09:57 DocScrutinizer05: http://ohsw.org/ -> "You want to come? Fine!" that sounds a little odd, too :) 2013-11-30 09:59 (that sounds a bit like "if you insist, we'll reluctantly tolerate your presence" :) 2013-11-30 10:02 * whitequark . o O ( http://img1.ak.crunchyroll.com/i/spire1/588124c957afade58779748e20bbbefc1330880330_full.png ) 2013-11-30 10:03 ;-) 2013-11-30 10:04 now add the speech bubble and a link to their site :) 2013-11-30 10:05 yes, that's how I imagined it. also, with voice. 2013-11-30 10:05 something along the lines of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tf6baKNrC48 (translation not required). 2013-11-30 10:06 oh, it's today already, totally missed that 2013-11-30 10:08 whitequark: marketing: WE NEED MORE ICONS ! 2013-11-30 10:11 developers: FINE! 2013-11-30 10:11 ;) 2013-11-30 10:13 Jay7 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-11-30 10:13 ((-:C 2013-11-30 10:14 whitequark: (no translation required) hmm. i can't quite decide whether that voice may be the GPS giving helpful instructions or someone in deep distress commenting on the journey 2013-11-30 10:17 wpwrak: there's a phenomenon called 'tsundere'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsundere 2013-11-30 10:18 looking at the increasingly angry mob at myidkey, i wonder if it wouldn't be a good strategy to pledge a tiny amount on each kickstarter project that may compete with what you're doing, so that you can later on, when their feces hit the distribution device, place a friendly comment (for backers only) pointing to an alternative ... 2013-11-30 10:18 both the picture and the voice are very typical for such characters, and the original phrase ("fine!") would be very, very typical too 2013-11-30 10:18 ignatius has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-30 10:19 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-30 10:20 but I guess there's no way to transmit my (admittedly quite hilarious) mental image through irc 2013-11-30 10:20 pity 2013-11-30 10:21 ah, i see. not a novel idea a such ... but i must say, "a tsundere cafe" sounds special 2013-11-30 10:23 wpwrak: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzST_5FQ_II is how it could look 2013-11-30 10:26 kilae has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-30 10:26 Anyone know where I place the .kmap file under the "Debian" image? 2013-11-30 10:27 https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCP_U91ipVWsF_2EiG3s6BKA 2013-11-30 10:30 Jay7 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-30 10:40 root_empire has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-30 10:42 michael_lee has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-11-30 11:14 hmm. that RF kill switch is giving me a headache. to be 100% "trusted", it has to be all electromechanical. else, we wouldn't need it. 2013-11-30 11:16 there are various things it could do. one would be hold the transceiver in reset. with the cc25430, it seems that this along wouldn't prevent the MCU from using the transceiver, though, since it could just set it to debug mode. (which is activated with reset asserted - needs more checking) 2013-11-30 11:17 another approach would be routing transceiver power through the switch, and simply setting it to GND. that would surely disable it. 2013-11-30 11:19 another possibility would be to somehow disable the RF side. but that may be tricky, given that RF already is effectively shorted, and also considering that adding switch + traces to the RF signal would probably cause quite a mess 2013-11-30 11:19 and i don't want to add an RF switch IC. 2013-11-30 11:21 the problem with killing the transceiver completely is that this also takes away the crystal needed for USB. so if using USB, rf would have to be enabled again. and kill switch would therefore only be usable during a) operation without external communication (except the display), and b) transport. 2013-11-30 11:22 that could be avoided by giving the MCU its own crystal. then it could do USB without relying on the RF side. drawbacks: higher BOM cost, big component in a busy area of the PCB 2013-11-30 11:24 also, the cc2543 SoC has a lot of GPIOs, so it could be used as a GPIO expander for slow signals. that would take some pressure off the MCU. drawbacks: we'd be pretty much committed to the cc2543 then, since other transceivers don't have so many GPIOs, and it would of course be impossible to completely shut down the chip 2013-11-30 11:28 wpwrak: how about killing some other signal which is vital for transmitting 2013-11-30 11:28 like disconnecting SPI 2013-11-30 11:28 I guess your MCU gets the clock from a dedicated pin on the transcieiver 2013-11-30 11:28 you'd be fine with disconnected SCK I think 2013-11-30 11:29 oh it uses I2C, same difference 2013-11-30 11:37 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-11-30 11:38 dandon has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-30 11:45 dandon has quit [Quit: .] 2013-11-30 11:47 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-30 11:48 dandon has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-30 11:56 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-30 12:13 dandon has quit [Quit: .] 2013-11-30 12:16 dandon has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-30 12:32 wpwrak: hello 2013-11-30 12:32 wpwrak: time for some hardware love for me now :)...all sleeping nicely 2013-11-30 12:33 wpwrak: "a few things: does the kicad build problem from 2012 still strike ? seems that this should be long gone" ....not sure what you mean ? are you talking about the checkout with -r 3934 ? 2013-11-30 12:49 ok done modification for adding symlink and whitequark separate the instruction on how to download the ARM gcc compiler 2013-11-30 12:56 wpwrak: downloaded the new datasheet thanks 2013-11-30 13:17 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-30 13:27 wpwrak: (OHSW) yep, thought the same. But I'm not responsible for that page 2013-11-30 13:32 whitequark: the transceiver will be become a cc2543. so it has an independent CPU. no cutting of communication will affect it. 2013-11-30 13:34 nicksydney: (3934) yes, that one. i think you only got that problem because you were trying to build the old version 2013-11-30 13:34 wpwrak: what are you trying to guard against? 2013-11-30 13:35 if main MCU acts as a gateway to data, does it matter whether transceiver works or not? 2013-11-30 13:36 wpwrak: yeah i got the library problem when running kicad and the brd not showing ... with the latest update (checkout completely) i did not have any problem 2013-11-30 13:36 wpwrak: checking out the whole kicad (w/o rev number) i don't have to do any patched 2013-11-30 13:38 wpwrak: when you don't trust your own software on anelok, then you're doomed anyway 2013-11-30 13:39 or what whitequark said ;-) 2013-11-30 13:39 whitequark: i/m trying to guard against compromised firmware talking to its true masters. one thing would be to assume that the main exposure is when on the move. a stronger assumption would be that they may also have antennas watching the "safe" place where i use anelok (with a wire) 2013-11-30 13:40 wpwrak: cc2543 firmware? 2013-11-30 13:40 or main? 2013-11-30 13:40 whitequark: either 2013-11-30 13:41 it's hard to figure *ANY* attack vector that you could protect against with anything but a R/W-hardswitch to make your firmware immutable 2013-11-30 13:41 could of course also be accidental transmissions 2013-11-30 13:41 ignatius has quit [Quit: Page closed] 2013-11-30 13:41 wpwrak: why, exactly, cutting communication to transceiver won't work for you? 2013-11-30 13:41 if somebody gets malware on your anelok, you're screwed. Now RF killswitch will change that 2013-11-30 13:42 s/now/No/ 2013-11-30 13:42 DocScrutinizer05: well,the scenario would be that you still use the device with cables. that means that it can try to do evil things, but doesn't get far. like a kitten. 2013-11-30 13:42 DocScrutinizer05: well, one could assume cc2543 firmware is compromised by default 2013-11-30 13:42 i like that. "evil kitten mode". marketing, are you listening ? 2013-11-30 13:42 and encrypt/hmac everything on main MCU 2013-11-30 13:43 imo that would make sense either way 2013-11-30 13:43 then you would just burn a fuse on the main chip 2013-11-30 13:44 oh and along with a fuse, add a nonce which gets added to the encrypted data in eeprom 2013-11-30 13:44 unique nonce 2013-11-30 13:44 whitequark: the kl2 will be able to flash the cc2543. that's how its firmware will be updated in the field. so the kl2 is ultimately in control. but ... 2013-11-30 13:44 this way even if anyone erases and reprograms the thing, it will be immediately obvious 2013-11-30 13:45 whitequark: there could be a bug causing spurious transmissions, e.g., giving away your presence. there could be a bug where data it leaked. data that, with some effort, can be used against you. 2013-11-30 13:46 there could be a keylogger or a movement tracker that reports back to its masters when within reach of their antennas. of course, that would already be a high-profile attack. 2013-11-30 13:47 it would require either compromising the source (me or any other source the users decide to trust) the source's signature, or getting users to accept firmware from an untrustworthy source 2013-11-30 13:49 wpwrak: regardless of other things, I believe unique per-firmware key is a good idea 2013-11-30 13:49 which can't be read from usb/rf and is erased on reflash 2013-11-30 13:50 an attack where someone gains physical access to device and reflashes it but doesn't know the unlock key is something I can easily see 2013-11-30 13:52 whitequark: yes, the KL2 will encrypt all data outside its physical (chip) boundaries with an "internal" key. so if you erase that, it loses all access. 2013-11-30 13:52 awesome 2013-11-30 13:52 is it also forcibly erased if you reflash it? 2013-11-30 13:53 whitequark: the cc2543 won't have such things. it's not expected to actually handle sensitive but unencrypted data. but it could of course still do bad things. 2013-11-30 13:53 that's the idea, yes. at least the manuals say it is :) 2013-11-30 13:53 in fact, i think you can't even erase the flash at that setting 2013-11-30 13:54 not that i had tried that feature yet :) 2013-11-30 13:55 reading through the mailing list lots of discussion for the anelok 2013-11-30 13:58 nicksydney: (merge request) hmm, i renamed the file to INSTALL. are we editing the same thing ? :) 2013-11-30 13:58 yup. plenty of stuff there :) 2013-11-30 14:00 didn't realise it was still using the old naming let me check 2013-11-30 14:00 long day for me 2013-11-30 14:00 yup edited the wrong file :( 2013-11-30 14:03 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtT5hOEPA0U&noredirect=1 2013-11-30 14:06 wpwrak: done..MR create 2013-11-30 14:10 wpwrak: ^^^ 2013-11-30 14:10 BTLE 2013-11-30 14:10 5:30 2013-11-30 14:11 bzip2 download is weird. will have to see what's behind that. 2013-11-30 14:14 when compiling kicad it download boost packages and that's the time it uses bzip2 ... remember i had that problem compilign kicad when it was looking for the package from sourceforge 2013-11-30 14:15 seems that the cherry-pick now worked :) 2013-11-30 14:15 yes, i remember. it's still weird, though :) who on earth would anyone download bzip2 ? it's already installed everywhere. 2013-11-30 14:16 i didn't have it installed on my machine :) 2013-11-30 14:17 aha ! 2013-11-30 14:17 just for sanity sake i put the info there in case if anybody are going through the compilation process and found error they know what to do...safe time 2013-11-30 14:18 maybe try that approach ? first see if you can remove the one they installed and see if it tries to download it again. if yes, kill it again, install with apt-get, then run their process once more 2013-11-30 14:19 well, your instructions suggest that having it avoids the implicit installation. so maybe just have the apt-get there ? and skip downloading and self-building one of the most common packages ? :) 2013-11-30 14:21 DocScrutinizer05: the nRF24L01+ can't do BTLE ;-) 2013-11-30 14:22 DocScrutinizer05: which doesn't stop some twisted creatures from doing it anyway, of course :) 2013-11-30 14:22 :-P 2013-11-30 14:24 you may find this one a fun read: http://dmitry.gr/index.php?r=05.Projects&proj=15&proj=11.%20Bluetooth%20LE%20fakery 2013-11-30 14:25 not sure i get you...maybe i misread you but what happen was ... during kicad compilation it complains not finding bzip2 package ... and what i did was just compile from source and install it and the compilation after that continues 2013-11-30 14:25 nicksydney: yes, but this looks like as if you didn't have bzip2 installed before. or did you have it, but it decided it didn't like your version ? 2013-11-30 14:26 no i did not have bzip2 installed on my machine that's why it was complaining 2013-11-30 14:26 because if it just wants bzip2, without being picky, what one shuold do is install it from the distribution, not build a local version 2013-11-30 14:26 wpwrak: agree...can't remember whether i tried doing apt-get bzip2 or not 2013-11-30 14:27 maybe we can just add doing apt-get and if it does not work for whatever reason than compile from source 2013-11-30 14:27 so at least they know that it is needed 2013-11-30 14:29 if apt-get works, we shouldn't even mention compiling it from source. i mean, EVERYTHING could be compiled from source. we wouldn't want a "building the universe in 189765289 easy steps" kind of guide ;-) 2013-11-30 14:31 bzip2 is in the default install of debian 2013-11-30 14:31 oh 2013-11-30 14:31 weird 2013-11-30 14:33 yeah, that's why i wonder what happened there :) 2013-11-30 14:35 i also don't know why it was complaining....anyway i think you have a point wpwrak ...i'll remove that and put in apt-get 2013-11-30 14:36 to make it easier 2013-11-30 14:36 wpwrak: was reading this post http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2013-September/010283.html and you mention......"By the way, "our" OLED also has an SSD1306 controller." ...... does this mean that the OLED already has a controller "built-in" into it ? like COG ? 2013-11-30 14:37 wpwrak: saw you comment for point no 9 ... was getting that error when compiling kicad too that's why i put that instruction there 2013-11-30 14:38 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bbfT-Qqw1M&noredirect=1 smart watches 2013-11-30 14:39 wpwrak: might as well have some nice RF 2013-11-30 14:45 (oled) yes, oled, lcd, etc. modules normally contain a controller. the matrix has a LOT of signals. you wouldn't want that outside the module 2013-11-30 14:47 nicksydney: (instructions for temporary setbacks) yeah, we need to avoid those detours, things will be messy enough as they are :) 2013-11-30 14:48 DocScrutinizer05: the audio is kinda nasty 2013-11-30 14:48 wpwrak: cool....learning something new :) 2013-11-30 14:48 [2013-11-30 15:46:27] sounds is illegible 2013-11-30 14:48 that didn't arrive 2013-11-30 14:49 the grinch ate it 2013-11-30 14:50 wpwrak: so for example if LCD has specification such as this one .. http://www.buy-display.com/default/5-5-0-tft-lcd-module-display-controller-board-w-serial-i2c-mcu-ra8875.html .. and it is mentioned there under the Description tab "IC or Equivalent - RA8875" it means that we can program the RA8875 from our MCU ? 2013-11-30 14:51 DocScrutinizer05: it's also a little annoying that the "Google" is just on top of the beginning of the title (in these slides) 2013-11-30 14:52 ah, getting better :) 2013-11-30 14:52 camera up 2 deg and it'll be great :) 2013-11-30 14:52 yeah, that works 2013-11-30 14:52 thanks ! 2013-11-30 14:54 nicksydney: that board seems to have two controllers: that RA8875, which is basically a dedicated MCU, and the actually matrix controller in the display 2013-11-30 14:55 if the controller in the display is documented, you could get rid of the RA8875 and connect your MCU directly (if it has a suitable display interface) 2013-11-30 14:57 wpwrak: how to tell that is has a matrix controller in the display ? are you referring to this line " 6800 8-bit Parallel , 8080 8-bit Parallel , 6800 16-bit Parallel , 8080 16-bit Parallel , I2C, 3-Wire Serial SPI, 4-Wire Serial SPI" ? 2013-11-30 14:58 if the display doesn't have some O(pixels_X + pixels_Y + a dozen more) signals come out, then it has one ;-) 2013-11-30 14:58 e.g., early e-paper didn't have one. now you can get modules that integrate it 2013-11-30 14:59 and if you don't have a controller, you're in a world of pain. some, like the one i'm using, are even nice enough to take care of providing the high LCD voltage 2013-11-30 14:59 some don't, and you have to cook that on the outside. messy. 2013-11-30 15:01 DocScrutinizer05: audio getting worse 2013-11-30 15:01 yes, annoying 2013-11-30 15:02 ah, better :) 2013-11-30 15:02 I gave up on it long ago 2013-11-30 15:02 ;-) 2013-11-30 15:02 are you there ? 2013-11-30 15:02 already wondered if the guy might add a transcript later on 2013-11-30 15:02 no 2013-11-30 15:02 qhome 2013-11-30 15:02 @home even 2013-11-30 15:03 heh, i was wondering if they'd manage to drag you out of your cave ;-) 2013-11-30 15:04 they weren't 2013-11-30 15:04 maybe tomorrow 2013-11-30 15:04 when it's safe, when there are no cameras :) 2013-11-30 15:05 that too ;-) 2013-11-30 15:07 (transcript) what would be good is to a) upload the slides somewhere before the talk, b) put that URL in the description of the video, so that one can download them and read them locally 2013-11-30 15:08 with the camera fixed on the slides, it's not so bad, but it would still help 2013-11-30 15:08 BOOMING voice ;-) 2013-11-30 15:08 yeah 2013-11-30 15:08 weird 2013-11-30 15:10 nice scrambling ;-) 2013-11-30 15:11 [2013-11-30 16:09:07] my "loopback" is quite clear 2013-11-30 15:11 [2013-11-30 16:09:28] yep, ~80% readability now 2013-11-30 15:11 [2013-11-30 16:10:16] The problem we have here: if the voice is too loud the software will try to adjust the level which results in a muted mic. 2013-11-30 15:11 [2013-11-30 16:10:22] :( 2013-11-30 15:11 vengeful software 2013-11-30 15:15 DocScrutinizer05: planning to show Neo900 off at FOSSDEM ? the timing may be quite compatible, in two months 2013-11-30 15:15 tempting, yes 2013-11-30 15:16 join #gta04 ? 2013-11-30 15:16 * dos1 is looking forward to next LinuxTag 2013-11-30 15:17 ok, let's limit the off-topicness here 2013-11-30 15:18 there's #neo900 too :) 2013-11-30 15:19 int just_like_tv(void) { return -ETOOMANYCHANNELS; } 2013-11-30 15:20 hehe 2013-11-30 15:23 nicksydney: btw, there are two areas of the world of anelok you haven't touched yet: one is CNC, which is probably not useful for you (unless you have a mill, and even then the adaptation would be trivial, given that my process is streamlined for the MDX-15), but, related to it, you can also generate STL meshes from the 3D models, so you can at least see what a mill or 3D printer could make 2013-11-30 15:25 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-11-30 15:25 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-30 15:30 hmm, forcing cc2543 reset low may still do the trick. seems that you have to raise it (leaving reset) also in debug mode. so forcing it low would prevent the transceiver from doing things behind your back 2013-11-30 15:31 alas, that still leaves the xtal issue 2013-11-30 15:31 wpwrak: route xtal from main mcu to cc2543? 2013-11-30 15:31 or just drive it with something third hopefully smaller than second xtal? 2013-11-30 15:32 the cc2543 doesn't even seem to support an external digital clock input. also, if the experience with atben is any guide, that would get messy 2013-11-30 15:33 whitequark: are you subscribed to the qi-hw list ? 2013-11-30 15:33 wpwrak: 406 unread 2013-11-30 15:34 ;-)) 2013-11-30 15:34 wpwrak: sorry was occupied reading through the mailing list..i'm upto november 2013-11-30 15:34 whitequark: this was atben with the ben providing the clock for the transceiver: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/rework-20110112/ 2013-11-30 15:34 and http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/rework-20110113/ 2013-11-30 15:35 this is atben with its own crystal: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/redesign-xtal/ 2013-11-30 15:35 maybe start with the last to see just how bad it was before 2013-11-30 15:35 wpwrak: I don't have CNC neither mill and won't be having them :) ... but i'm interested to see the 3D models 2013-11-30 15:35 wpwrak: oooooh 2013-11-30 15:36 nicksydney: excellent. that means that you'll need to build things from the cae-tools :) 2013-11-30 15:36 wpwrak: reading through the testing that you have with the MCU and power outputs already making me dizzy.....hahaa...but it's exciting :) 2013-11-30 15:36 namely poly2d and then cameo (the latter depends on the former) 2013-11-30 15:37 wpwrak: ok let me finish the november mailing list to keep myself up to date to the latest and then we move to CNC 2013-11-30 15:37 hehe :) just wait until you get to bluetooth ;-) 2013-11-30 15:38 wpwrak: bring it on i say :) 2013-11-30 15:38 wpwrak: ain't no ocean too deep :D 2013-11-30 15:43 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWPmXxq1MdQ Neo900 the next N900 - Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller 2013-11-30 15:46 DocScrutinizer05: is that you in that video ? :) 2013-11-30 15:46 no, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller 2013-11-30 15:55 wpwrak: reading this (http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2013-November/010392.html) ... you mention "It also supports clock output so we could use it to provide the MCU with a crystal-based clock, like we currently do with the AT86RF232" . 2013-11-30 15:55 yup. the MCU needs a precise clock for USB. 2013-11-30 15:56 if not using USB, we can run with the internal RC clock 2013-11-30 15:56 wpwrak: to make it easy for me to understand....what you mean is that the output pin of the A7105 is use as input to MCU for clock instead of using an external crystal ? is this correct ? 2013-11-30 15:57 yes, or more general, that a pin of the transceiver (now at86rf232, in that post a7105, but today seems that it'll be the cc2543) provides a xtal-derived clock to the mcu 2013-11-30 15:57 ok got it..another lesson learned ;) 2013-11-30 15:57 i used that approach already in atusb 2013-11-30 15:58 so this means pretty much if any IC component can provide an output clock in one of their pin it can be used by the clock input pin of the MCU (taking into consideration the frequency is the same) ? 2013-11-30 15:59 wpwrak: I think you could calibrate RC against SOF 2013-11-30 15:59 vusb on at2313 uses that 2013-11-30 16:00 but rc must be precise to at least 1%... it won't work with worse oscillators, or I believe that's what vusb developers say 2013-11-30 16:01 whitequark: yes, that may be an option. not sure if it'll work in this case. but it's something we could try. 2013-11-30 16:02 and yes, it works quite well in vusb. of course, they're low-speed. but silabs do something similar at full-speed. 2013-11-30 16:02 cp2102 doesn't need an xtal too 2013-11-30 16:03 in fact it doesn't need *any* external components which is pretty impressive 2013-11-30 16:03 maybe a single bypass cap 2013-11-30 16:03 i think cp2101 is secretly a c8051fxxx 2013-11-30 16:04 cp2102 doesn't have a core inside afaik 2013-11-30 16:04 similar to ft232 2013-11-30 16:04 they have a separate 8051-containing series 2013-11-30 16:05 that's the c8051fxxx. i used that a few times. 2013-11-30 16:05 even the first atusb prototype had one. then i switched to avr. now i finally found a chip i actually like, the kl2 (kl24 in this case, good and cheap) 2013-11-30 16:12 ok completed november list 2013-11-30 16:12 ok no december :) 2013-11-30 16:12 nicksydney: yes, basically any good enough clock source will do, as long as it's a suitable frequency (e.g., 2 MHz will be fine). of course, the only other item on the board that can be a clock source is the radio :) 2013-11-30 16:12 right..now let's get to CNC 2013-11-30 16:12 not yet ;-) 2013-11-30 16:12 (december) 2013-11-30 16:13 ok it's 3.12am now ... so will have 15min before heading off to bed and another weekend routine :) 2013-11-30 16:14 trying to build poly2d 2013-11-30 16:17 need CGAL for poly2d.. 2013-11-30 16:19 yeah. CGAL, the 9th level of C++ hell. 2013-11-30 16:19 cameo and poly2d done 2013-11-30 16:20 whee ! :) that went smoothly 2013-11-30 16:20 yeah surprising eh..do i need to do make install by any chance ? 2013-11-30 16:20 naw, it's all relative paths 2013-11-30 16:21 now, to generate the STL ... lemme check ... 2013-11-30 16:21 ok 2013-11-30 16:21 you also need meshlab, for visualization 2013-11-30 16:22 (apt-get install ...) 2013-11-30 16:22 sudo apt-get install meshlab 2013-11-30 16:22 done 2013-11-30 16:22 and then, cd ybox/case && make stl && make view 2013-11-30 16:22 then press ^D for proper lighting 2013-11-30 16:23 make: *** No rule to make target `../ybox-all.pos', needed by `pos.inc'. Stop. 2013-11-30 16:24 i'm inside ybox/case 2013-11-30 16:24 ah, right. one of the gaps in automation 2013-11-30 16:26 you have to ... cd ybox; make brd; then File > Fabrication Outputs > Modules Position 2013-11-30 16:27 then select mm, one file for board, OK 2013-11-30 16:28 done that step 2013-11-30 16:28 anothere rro 2013-11-30 16:28 error 2013-11-30 16:28 .../bin/bash: /home/qi/cae-tools/cameo/fped2stl.pl: No such file or directory 2013-11-30 16:29 ahhh 2013-11-30 16:31 oh. lemme check ... 2013-11-30 16:31 do you have /usr/bin/perl / 2013-11-30 16:32 should be: do you have /usr/bin/perl ? 2013-11-30 16:33 after changing the wpwrak Makefile.cnc for the CAE_TOOLS to point to the right directory it worked 2013-11-30 16:33 originally it was 2013-11-30 16:33 CAE_TOOLS = /home/qi/cae-tools 2013-11-30 16:33 oh ! where did i put that hair shirt ? 2013-11-30 16:34 ok i've done the make view 2013-11-30 16:34 meshlab pops up 2013-11-30 16:34 but the middle screen is black 2013-11-30 16:35 http://snag.gy/JjJJb.jpg 2013-11-30 16:36 ^D 2013-11-30 16:39 is that a smiley? 2013-11-30 16:40 no, Ctrl-D, to turn on the lights in meshlab :) 2013-11-30 16:41 ok it comes out with grab in the middle instead of black after pressing Ctrl-D 2013-11-30 16:42 i presume need to use some keys to look at it :) 2013-11-30 16:42 woohooo 2013-11-30 16:42 got it 2013-11-30 16:43 http://snag.gy/P6J8c.jpg 2013-11-30 16:43 so you can see it now ? it's the part on the left on this image: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/ybox-paint-knife-strip.jpg 2013-11-30 16:44 yeah, that's it ! 2013-11-30 16:44 what about the right side ? 2013-11-30 16:45 kilae has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 25.0.1/20131112160018]] 2013-11-30 16:45 meshlab bot.stl 2013-11-30 16:46 still looking for a "nice" way to merge them 2013-11-30 16:46 very nice ! 2013-11-30 16:47 ok i'm off for now...see you tomorrow.... 2013-11-30 16:47 there's one more ... lemme fix the makefile ... 2013-11-30 16:49 please git pull then cd anelok/case && make stl # takes a while 2013-11-30 16:49 and then make view 2013-11-30 16:50 that shows an obsolete version of the top. need to update that and also make the bottom. 2013-11-30 16:54 ah, right. next task: search my drawer of never used components for that balun i once got .... see if it's the one the cc2543 uses 2013-11-30 16:54 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-11-30 16:57 okay, if any of the THREE i never used ... 2013-11-30 16:57 but no, no such luck 2013-11-30 17:39 whoa, exponential growth, here we come. just had a sneak preview on this month's statistics. #qi-hw got really busy 2013-11-30 17:41 and the milkymist folks did the same on their mailing list. 2013-11-30 17:42 well, still about 20 hours to go before the numbers will stabilize 2013-11-30 17:44 qwebirc66591 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-30 17:59 qwebirc66591 has quit [Quit: Page closed] 2013-11-30 18:00 I wonder what will be the statistics on neo900 page 2013-11-30 18:00 you already have one more 2013-11-30 18:00 13 to go :) 2013-11-30 18:02 yeah, that's pretty normal 2013-11-30 18:03 1 or 2 donations per day 2013-11-30 18:05 https://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04%3ADonation 2013-11-30 18:24 root_empire has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 2013-11-30 19:03 +1. seems that this will be a good day :) 2013-11-30 19:14 ohyes, 3 is already fine 2013-11-30 19:17 the magic of the presentation is spreading :) 2013-11-30 19:47 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-30 19:52 kristianpaul has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 2013-11-30 20:13 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-30 20:13 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-30 20:23 hmm, one of these days i should teach cameo to use multiple threads ... generating toolpaths for a complex 3D model is slooow ... 2013-11-30 20:33 wpwrak: what's your take on trustzone? Evil? Smart? Nonsense? Great? 2013-11-30 20:33 http://www.arm.com/products/processors/technologies/trustzone/index.php 2013-11-30 20:42 first time i hear of it 2013-11-30 20:42 dunno. "The advanced system provides a cost-effective platform for digital rights management (DRM)" sounds a bit suspicious 2013-11-30 20:42 but then, maybe it's dual-use and can actually do something good ... 2013-11-30 20:43 hw arch looks a bit as if they had reinvented kernel mode :) 2013-11-30 20:43 but there seem to be some crypto blocks on the bus as well 2013-11-30 20:44 perhaps the most important question: can you actually use it without an NDA ? :) 2013-11-30 20:47 the question is: will any hardware manufacturer let *you* use it at all 2013-11-30 20:48 the whole purpose of such thing is to protect the system from user 2013-11-30 20:48 yeah, of course. DRM says that. but if you're the hw manufacturer ... 2013-11-30 20:49 yeah, then you can make sure that nothing else but Windows is running on your devices 2013-11-30 20:49 and windows can make sure no software but that one M$ has signed will ever run on the device 2013-11-30 20:50 ~trust 2013-11-30 20:50 *cough* 2013-11-30 20:50 of course, of course. but you were asking as a hw manufacturer, right ? we already know that from a user's POV such things are generally bad 2013-11-30 20:50 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cbS_lDJuJg 2013-11-30 20:50 (unless nice guys like us are making the hw) 2013-11-30 20:51 the question I came from: are Jolla nice guys? 2013-11-30 20:51 was Nokia nice when they used that crap in N9 Aegis? 2013-11-30 20:52 >> These applications are validated by the device OEM to ensure quality, << (from http://www.arm.com/products/processors/technologies/trustzone/index.php) -- wrong approach 2013-11-30 20:53 evidence: none of this exists on PCs (yet) - and everybody in FOSS community hopes it will never change 2013-11-30 20:53 mission "enduring crappiness" :) 2013-11-30 20:54 can there ever be something like a "nice guy hw manufacturer that exploits BzstZone but still is somebody you would want to support"? 2013-11-30 20:55 dunno. if you can find a use to make, say, a password safe safer, that could be a good thing 2013-11-30 20:55 of course, if you just make it less transparent, it's not safer by definition 2013-11-30 20:55 I don't see any reasonable design that would need to use BustZone for that 2013-11-30 20:57 the sole purpose of BustZone is tivoization 2013-11-30 20:59 since you need to block user access to monitor mode and secure world and allow it only to the guy with the key aka cert. Otherwise BustZone is void and moot 2013-11-30 21:00 NB there is no way to esablish a secure system starting with an insecure one 2013-11-30 21:00 this type of security has to start with CPU reset 2013-11-30 21:02 so you either have a tivoized system, or you (hw manuf) send the unique root cert private key printed on a card together with the device 2013-11-30 21:03 >> These applications are validated by the device OEM to ensure quality, << only works when all apps are signed with the same key, but none of the users ever gets his fingers at that key 2013-11-30 21:04 which in the end means, the OEM decides when your device becomes obsolete from on day to the next 2013-11-30 21:09 there's a reason why ROM-BootLoader starts in secure mode and checks xloader (next stage bootloader) for correct signature. If that signature doesn't fit, device doesn't start 2013-11-30 21:12 xloader usually does same with uBoot, and when signature of uBoot isn't valid, the xloader either refuses to start it, or xloader switches device into tampered mode that is irreversible except by boot, and also may protect some flash areas from getting written 2013-11-30 21:13 xloader usually sets a "tampered" flag in that flash area, before switching to tampered mode. So you can effectively nuke your device irreversibly by trying to boot a patched system 2013-11-30 21:17 so when OEM decides to implement a BustZone based security scheme, you don't own the device anymore. OEM owns and controls it 2013-11-30 21:18 to do no evil, OEM needs to provide a signed xloader that doesn't lock the device 2013-11-30 21:19 and that inevitably breaks the whole concept, so BustZone is worth nothing then 2013-11-30 21:20 well, you can still have a secure system that allows you to bypass that security. e.g., that's what i have in mind for the pw safe. by default, it only accepts signed fw updates. but you can add signatures, if you want. 2013-11-30 21:23 how would you add signatures? 2013-11-30 21:23 well, public keys. of people whose signature you'll accept. 2013-11-30 21:24 don't you think such signature package needs to be signed, by a signature that's already on the system? 2013-11-30 21:24 naw, you need to unlock the safe and then it'll tell you what it found. then you decide whether you trust it 2013-11-30 21:25 uhuh, and how do you stop malware from doing exactly that? 2013-11-30 21:26 to make you decide you trust it ? well, if you're the gullible type, you may find life inconvenient in general ... 2013-11-30 21:26 huh? 2013-11-30 21:27 you as the user will have to accept a) any new public keys, and b) any updates 2013-11-30 21:27 nah, malware does exactly what you just suggested user should do 2013-11-30 21:28 sure. but if you always follow orders, it may just tell you "mail the password for your e-banking to crook@evil.ru" 2013-11-30 21:28 and I fail to understand the security concept in what you sketched 2013-11-30 21:28 this is NOT about anybody following orders 2013-11-30 21:29 malware can do that for you 2013-11-30 21:29 again, you the owner have to explicitly authorize any such options 2013-11-30 21:29 how ? 2013-11-30 21:29 yes, exactly. HOW? 2013-11-30 21:29 paricularly how in a way that malware can't emulate 2013-11-30 21:30 "click green button for >trust<" ?? 2013-11-30 21:31 spin the wheel of the device to enter your code, then read the warning, spin wheel to select "accept", press button, etc. ? 2013-11-30 21:32 the code you have to enter needs to get placed on the device first 2013-11-30 21:32 if your malware sends autonomous robots to operate your device, then you lose :) 2013-11-30 21:32 yes 2013-11-30 21:33 you enter it after unwrapping the device 2013-11-30 21:33 who's doing that, and when? how make you sure that this is not already malware that does it? 2013-11-30 21:33 that's a packaging issue :) 2013-11-30 21:33 aha 2013-11-30 21:33 make a package you can't re-seal 2013-11-30 21:34 so we're again back to packaging 2013-11-30 21:34 another option would be to ship the device unprotected and you do the initial flashing (and locking) yourself 2013-11-30 21:34 sure, if you buy the device already compromised, you have a problem 2013-11-30 21:35 I suggested to add a card with the code to the package, you say you make sure that the device can't have been confronted with malware before user does the code printing 2013-11-30 21:35 there could also be hw backdoors we don't know about 2013-11-30 21:36 it's basically the same thing 2013-11-30 21:36 sure, that's the usual sort of procedures. use a fancy bag that can't be resealed. have an initial PIN, etc. 2013-11-30 21:36 you can also ship PIN and device by different channels. 2013-11-30 21:37 but of course, the PIN alone doesn't ensure it's not been compromised :) 2013-11-30 21:37 but the device can show you a code, too. that can be protected. 2013-11-30 21:37 btw all this is feasible without trustzone 2013-11-30 21:37 of course, if you trust nobody, then you need a "blank" device and do the initial programming yourself 2013-11-30 21:37 of course 2013-11-30 21:38 the purpose of DRM is not to make the world a better place ;-) 2013-11-30 21:38 yes, exactly, and trustzone is about DRM 2013-11-30 21:38 there is no other reasonable use for it 2013-11-30 21:39 since you just explained every other level of security is possible without bustzome 2013-11-30 21:39 trust is confinement, torture is care, friends are enemies, ... welcome to 1984, 28th annual update :) 2013-11-30 21:39 eh? 2013-11-30 21:40