2013-11-24 00:37 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-11-24 00:52 it's like the arduino. those things take a while to burn themselves out. 2013-11-24 00:54 DocScrutinizer05: http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/molex-5000246471.html ? 2013-11-24 00:55 or eat the 6 weeks lead time and get it from one of the usual suspects 2013-11-24 00:56 digikey says it's obsolete... 2013-11-24 01:00 pretty much everybody says it's obsolete. but they need it anyway. 2013-11-24 01:02 dandon has quit [Quit: .] 2013-11-24 01:04 wpwrak: alibaba is sophisticated spam, they say they can offer .* MOQ 100 and when you ask for 500 they say "sorry, not on stock, will be extremely expensive and MOQ:5000" 2013-11-24 01:05 or they simply say "not available" and start spamming you trying to sell random other crap to you 2013-11-24 01:05 admittedly this is empirical on a very small sample size of 3 events which were 100% like this 2013-11-24 01:06 one event: ! ordered three PCB on ownta. 5 weeks later the money returned to my paypal account without further notice. PCB not offered anymore 2013-11-24 01:07 s/!/1/ 2013-11-24 01:07 DocScrutinizer05 meant: "one event: 1 ordered three PCB on ownta. 5 weeks later the money returned to my paypal account without further notice. PCB not offered anymore" 2013-11-24 01:07 s/!/I/ 2013-11-24 01:07 s/1/I/ 2013-11-24 01:07 DocScrutinizer05 meant: "one event: I ordered three PCB on ownta. 5 weeks later the money returned to my paypal account without further notice. PCB not offered anymore" 2013-11-24 01:07 dunno. i found eastrising aka buy-displays via them. very happy so far. 2013-11-24 01:08 (pcb return) well, that can happen. at least they didn't defraud you. 2013-11-24 01:08 next event: Nikolaus asked for 5000246471, answer like above "very expensive, obsolete, not available, do you REALLY want this?" 2013-11-24 01:10 this been Von: "Viki Miao" 2013-11-24 01:10 This is Viki Miao, we are manufacturing company for connectors and cables, and we also do some famous brand connector in stock, including the Molex connector you interested in. 2013-11-24 01:10 About your connector request, it’s a OBSOLETE one, no much in the market any more, we can try to source it, but before we spend a lots of time to source this connector, we want to give you an idea about the cost, You can check if it’s within your budget or not, if yes, we will spend efforts on this part, and try our best to get it, if it’s not within budget, you can let me know your ideas, I will check it for you. 2013-11-24 01:10 no idea given 2013-11-24 01:13 3rd event: me asking for a 1GB PoP RAM chip that the company advertised. Answer: "sorry we can't deliver this chip. Do you want OMAP3430 instead?" 2013-11-24 01:14 they pestered me like 5 times, during 5 weeks, blackmailing me to tell them how many omap3 I want to buy from them 2013-11-24 01:14 honestly, alibaba, dunno... 2013-11-24 01:16 maybe that's exactly what you need to go through, mail every single of those obscure shops and fight 99.99% spam and hope for the 1 answer in 10000 that actually offers to deliver right away 2013-11-24 01:17 we westerners probably have pretty poor means to evaluate if a company is a hoax/rippoff or something serious 2013-11-24 01:19 99% of the spare housings come with fake antennae that are only plastic parts without any conductive conponent in them 2013-11-24 01:20 99.9 don't have the needed magnets in place 2013-11-24 01:21 (fake antennae) they really like this trick. 2013-11-24 01:21 indeed 2013-11-24 01:22 also I don't think even a single chinese product I bought had RF shields 2013-11-24 01:22 all had exposed metal on pcb though 2013-11-24 01:23 to put it plain, it seems to me that all but maybe 2 or 3 companies over there are simply copying all the catalogs from all the other companies around and offer to REsell parts to you 2013-11-24 01:23 ooooh I have a nice story for you 2013-11-24 01:24 the russian component retailer (chipdip.ru), think digikey, had copied (against license agreement) the entire catalogue of digikey, added 30% markup and listed on their website 2013-11-24 01:24 that's what they do in HK as well, and China 2013-11-24 01:24 er, s,digikey,farnell, 2013-11-24 01:25 just they don't copy Farnel or digikey, but everybody copies their competitors 2013-11-24 01:26 so you have a) pretty obsolete offers that go pooof as soon as you want to actually order 2013-11-24 01:26 (Viki the cat) well, what was the estimate ? 2013-11-24 01:27 and b) nobody has a real clue which offers are serious and which are just noise created by 5000 copy actions 2013-11-24 01:27 none 2013-11-24 01:27 wpwrak: none 2013-11-24 01:27 I quoted the complete mail text 2013-11-24 01:27 (minus headers and signature) 2013-11-24 01:28 no idea given 2013-11-24 01:28 viki the cat? 2013-11-24 01:28 ah, miao 2013-11-24 01:28 Viki Miao 2013-11-24 01:28 ha 2013-11-24 01:30 well, she wrote a lot. and it's correct english. so ask "yes, please let me know. please keep in mind that we only need 500 parts for now." (keep her hungry) 2013-11-24 01:30 when they offer MOQ1000, 3$/unit, then go FU 2013-11-24 01:30 pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo] 2013-11-24 01:30 her? 2013-11-24 01:30 "them" :) 2013-11-24 01:30 viki aka wicki 2013-11-24 01:30 well, 1000 isn't much greater than 500 2013-11-24 01:31 and it will be expensive, whatever you do 2013-11-24 01:31 yeah but 3000 / 200 is simply too much per device 2013-11-24 01:32 and I dozbt they will ever deliver, and first we need a sample to verify the component 2013-11-24 01:32 plan B is to unsolder from refurbished devices, right ? :) 2013-11-24 01:32 yeah, probably 2013-11-24 01:33 but machine-assemble unsoldered components is almost as expensive per board 2013-11-24 01:33 think about plan C: identify a display that will fit and that has reasonable connectors. even if it really sucks in a number of way, you'll feel better if you have something good to fall back to. 2013-11-24 01:33 forget it 2013-11-24 01:34 3d-print all the connectors! 2013-11-24 01:34 that's not display, that#s flex PCB with ALS, camera, LED, proxi, 2013-11-24 01:34 no, do it :) you'll find something. it'll be the basis for you independence. 2013-11-24 01:34 ah, i see 2013-11-24 01:34 what's ALS ? 2013-11-24 01:34 ambient kight 2013-11-24 01:34 light 2013-11-24 01:34 dang 2013-11-24 01:34 okay, easy to kill :) 2013-11-24 01:34 camera is also something replaceable 2013-11-24 01:35 LED, trivial 2013-11-24 01:35 assembling flex PCB - NOT 2013-11-24 01:35 proxi ? what needs that ? 2013-11-24 01:35 really ? 2013-11-24 01:35 N900 needs that 2013-11-24 01:35 for what ? 2013-11-24 01:35 we calculated max 10EUR for the complete flex PCB 2013-11-24 01:36 for blanking the screen and deactivating the toichpanel when placing phone to your ear 2013-11-24 01:36 and for ~1 dozen apps that make other nifty use of it 2013-11-24 01:37 hmm, fair enough. perhaps you could do the same with heuristics, though: if call in progress, have a really short time out before turning off screen. 2013-11-24 01:38 and screws the 12 doz apps. they're not worth all that money. 2013-11-24 01:38 once more, you can always try to do better. but you need a baseline. 2013-11-24 01:39 your heuristics will fail 2013-11-24 01:39 been there seen that. When the sensor reacts too slow you finish the call with your ear 2013-11-24 01:39 computer heuristics will fail. humans will adapt :) 2013-11-24 01:39 meh 2013-11-24 01:39 hell, I've seen android phones with proper proximity sensors not reacting fast enough 2013-11-24 01:40 thanks for the suggestion, but we offered feature completeness 2013-11-24 01:40 too big window 2013-11-24 01:40 DocScrutinizer05: btw how does it work? 2013-11-24 01:40 proxi? 2013-11-24 01:40 yea 2013-11-24 01:40 well, try a bit more. maybe you'll succeed and get that part. if not, write that apology to your fan base. they won't mind. 2013-11-24 01:41 http://projects.goldelico.com/p/neo900/issues/513/ 2013-11-24 01:41 hahaha "expected result" 2013-11-24 01:42 note: it's you talking to yourself. nobody else even noticed that there might be a problem :) 2013-11-24 01:42 fact: enthusiastic users/customers are willing to forgive almost anything, as long as you maintain at least a shred of honesty. 2013-11-24 01:43 /set-channel-name #wpwrak-trolling 2013-11-24 01:43 yes !! ((-:C 2013-11-24 01:43 or #joerg-ra(nt|g)ing 2013-11-24 01:44 not that I mind either 2013-11-24 01:44 case #1: OQO. horrible issues with battery and power supply (both basically self-destructed, sometimes on first use). reaction: people praised (!) the efficient customer service that sent them another part with just the same flaws. 2013-11-24 01:45 or I just convince Nikolaus that we both earned a long holiday on the bahamas which we should get for ~20k EUR per person 2013-11-24 01:46 case #2: openmoko GTA01: advertized quand-band, hardware only had triple. users guessed for months why it didn't work. OM was afraid to admit it. when the truth got out (you can blame me :), people living in areas where that means their phone was unusable looked for buyers on ebay. i don't think a single one asked for a refund. 2013-11-24 01:46 so i need to continue ? :) 2013-11-24 01:46 s/so/do/ 2013-11-24 01:46 wpwrak meant: "do i need to continue ? :)" 2013-11-24 01:47 just publish the schematics, declare that "ready for production" and explain that we had to use up the over-accomplishment on donations for psychiatrists and now we're busted and can't continue the project 2013-11-24 01:47 ETX 2013-11-24 01:48 well, hold yourself to high standards. don't hold yourself to impossible standards. 2013-11-24 01:48 that's already the best deal in town, so don't worry 2013-11-24 01:48 wpwrak: you missed one relevant point. I'm doing that to produce a device I would like to use for the next at least 5 years 2013-11-24 01:49 yes. will you find it totally unusable if it doesn't have a proximity sensor ? 2013-11-24 01:49 so in the end I don't give a fsck about "deal in town", I want that device exactly like I specified it 2013-11-24 01:49 it's only an annoying side effect that I have to build at least another 200 2013-11-24 01:49 ;-) 2013-11-24 01:49 i.e., if you know you have to avoid touching you cheek for the first N (configurable) seconds of a call, will you never be able to learn that ? 2013-11-24 01:50 wpwrak: to be honest, yes, I'd find it pretty unusable without proxi detector 2013-11-24 01:50 don't underestimate the human brain. it's really good at dealing with things that don't work as expected 2013-11-24 01:50 but hey, that's not our problem 2013-11-24 01:51 wpwrak: your suggestion is based on zilch usecase study. It won't work the way you hope for 2013-11-24 01:52 I had to "pick up" and shout "please wait, my phone needs to lock the screen" 2013-11-24 01:52 and how do you suggest I end the call? ;-P 2013-11-24 01:53 you hit a button 2013-11-24 01:53 there's no button 2013-11-24 01:53 but honestly, that's wasted time to discuss the proxi sensor, we have that completely covered since we need to reuse the complete display half anyway 2013-11-24 01:54 also, do you actually NEED to turn off the screen ? does it matter, in overall power consumption ? and even if it does, could you just dim it ? 2013-11-24 01:54 *intensely glares at phone while it melts and bends* 2013-11-24 01:54 wpwrak: it's about discarding input 2013-11-24 01:54 wpwrak: or could you come up with another few questions that are actually totally irrelevant 2013-11-24 01:55 whitequark: what i'm trying to get at is telling the user what to do. e.g., press a button, touch an area of the screen that isn't likely to be touched by accident, do a fancy swipe, whatever 2013-11-24 01:55 I'm wasting time on this discussion when I'm supposed to get work done 2013-11-24 01:56 the display half is a blackbox with a nasty connector. Period 2013-11-24 01:56 well, then solve the problem :) if you can't, then come back. else, enjoy the girls in the caribbean :) 2013-11-24 01:57 before you said the display wasn't part of the problem 2013-11-24 01:57 now it is ? 2013-11-24 01:57 the LCD display << the display half 2013-11-24 01:58 so it's on that connector, too ? 2013-11-24 01:58 the display half is the half of the N900 where the display is mounted inside 2013-11-24 01:58 ah, i see what you mean 2013-11-24 01:58 yes, that's always the evil side 2013-11-24 01:58 among other stuff like earpiece, ALS, camera, LED, proxi 2013-11-24 01:59 touchpanel 2013-11-24 01:59 (i think now I got them all) 2013-11-24 02:00 function wise, of course there's also ESD and whatnot 2013-11-24 02:00 watch out movie! 2013-11-24 02:01 sure. define your baseline. find alternatives, even if they're poor. without that, you have no floor to stand on. if you define your alternatives, no matter how suckish they may be, you know you can deliver something. 2013-11-24 02:01 all the rest of your work can then go into that "something" being something you can be proud of 2013-11-24 02:01 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJHMXQ3nSt0&noredirect=1 2013-11-24 02:01 so you're working on excellence, no working on avoiding defeat. you'll save a lot on antidepressants that way :) 2013-11-24 02:02 0:27 is display half 2013-11-24 02:02 with the male part of that nasty connector couple at end of the black flex ribboon 2013-11-24 02:03 in the middle of green mainboard in lower half, at upper end you see the other part of that connector nightmare 2013-11-24 02:04 yes, but it seems that this connector doesn't have very exciting stuff on it after all. so if you can't source it (of course you should keep trying), you should look into replacing it 2013-11-24 02:04 note that "replacing" could also mean making a little PCB into which you solder the mating connector 2013-11-24 02:05 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-11-24 02:05 or replace the whole assembly. leave out the bits made of unobtainium 2013-11-24 02:06 I think I still failed to explain it, or to get what you're suggesting. We want users to do that swap. We need to allow then to remove the display half just like in the movie, and plug it in to the new PCB 2013-11-24 02:07 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-24 02:07 and the only "interesting stuff" on that connector is the complete display half, with LCD, ALS, ... you know the list 2013-11-24 02:08 ah, i thought you said before the LCD wasn't on it. just proximity, LED, and such. okay. 2013-11-24 02:08 this connector connects the two hlafes 2013-11-24 02:09 do you have an estimate of how many users will want an "upgrade" and how many want a "new phone" ? 2013-11-24 02:09 you're aware that the upper half can get slide up to expose a hardware kbd, are you? 2013-11-24 02:09 sure 2013-11-24 02:09 seems like 80% want complete phone 2013-11-24 02:10 but that doesn't matter since we can't build our own custom display half 2013-11-24 02:10 but i don't think it's all that hard to make an FPC. i know it's not trivial, but also far from impossible. 2013-11-24 02:11 sure, we even could unsolder the connector and replace it by sth different 2013-11-24 02:12 but our customers can't, and even while we _can_ it cost us an "arm and a leg" 2013-11-24 02:12 (fpc) one useful trick: insert FPC connectors a few times. then examine the scratches the contacts left under a microscope. send pictures to the company that made the fpcs and let them be ashamed. they'll do better in the next round. 2013-11-24 02:12 working hours alone are not bearable 2013-11-24 02:13 skip this if you source your fpcs from germany. those obsessive engineers there will probably kill themselves over making sure your "1.1 mm" is really "1.10 +/- 0.005 mm" :) 2013-11-24 02:13 nah, I think they're used to that 2013-11-24 02:14 won't kill them 2013-11-24 02:14 (complete phone) that allows you to do things like replacing nasty connectors with pcbs. 2013-11-24 02:14 I won't do that 2013-11-24 02:14 it's too much work and effort and risk 2013-11-24 02:14 germans tend to be obsessive. sometimes they forget, but once you remind them, they snap right back into it. 2013-11-24 02:16 btw soldering FPC is a nightmare, unless you use vapor phase 2013-11-24 02:16 you can also see if you can find a company in switzerland that will make that for you. chances are there's none. and of there is, it'll be bloody expensive. but they'll deliver your "1.1 mm" at "1.100 mm +/- one planck length" and not even notice :) 2013-11-24 02:16 reflow is prone to make a cookie out of your FPC 2013-11-24 02:17 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-11-24 02:17 Wuerth is nice, they got the PCB gerbers at last Monday mornig, and today the PCB arrived 2013-11-24 02:17 yeah, fpc is kinda sensitive. but then, if you don't have too many components, you can just hand-solder. also, you can consider reengineering: use fpc just to connect pcbs and move things that were on fpc to pcb. 2013-11-24 02:18 and they do pretty good PCB 2013-11-24 02:18 PCB with 0.1mm strength? 2013-11-24 02:18 mhm 2013-11-24 02:20 does it have to be that thin ? 2013-11-24 02:21 0.4 mm are possible. (orderable by the container from digi-key) probably less if you make an effort. 2013-11-24 02:22 http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/462025880/flex_cable_FOR_Nokia_N900.html 2013-11-24 02:23 yes, it has to be that thin, we have a case it needs to fit into 2013-11-24 02:24 and we have nasty custom rubber coat around camera & proxi, ALS 2013-11-24 02:24 we're not going to build the flex cables 2013-11-24 02:24 well, then be nice to the top 20 .cn vendors that connector 2013-11-24 02:25 :nod: 2013-11-24 02:25 you may also try contacting molex directly. chances are they'll ignore you. but you never know. 2013-11-24 02:25 :nod: 2013-11-24 02:45 wpwrak: (anelok case) consider strucured inside, might look nice with paint on it and cover some inevitable impurities/scratches of the acrylic inside 2013-11-24 02:46 instead of masking the windoes, consider milling away the paint after painting finished 2013-11-24 02:54 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-24 02:54 structuring the inside surface also avoids paint coming off 2013-11-24 03:17 wpwrak: how about simply using black sticky tape to create a "belt" around the whole case to cover the gap between upper and lower half? you can use full height, or just a small stripe of maybe 50% of the complete height, leaving enough of the pretty acrylic edges exposed 2013-11-24 03:17 and you'd close the case with it 2013-11-24 03:30 wpwrak: http://www.cryogenius.com/hardware/rng/ 2013-11-24 03:35 http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2013-November/010396.html Hah, that sounds like anelok design approaching my initial suggestions 2013-11-24 03:36 ok, enough EE for today 2013-11-24 03:36 o/ 2013-11-24 03:41 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-11-24 04:40 mth_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-24 04:41 mth has quit [Write error: Broken pipe] 2013-11-24 06:38 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-24 06:50 unclouded has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-11-24 07:22 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-11-24 07:45 (machining the paint) hmmm, that probably wouldn't work. at least in anelok, i need to sand and then polish the machined side of the display window. if there was paint around it, it would get scratched. 2013-11-24 07:46 (rng) hmm, not too bad. but ... 12 V ? that would be painful 2013-11-24 07:52 (tape to close the case) that would look cheap. it's already a bit suckish if the paint is merely on the outside. need to try a higher quality paint, though - epoxy instead of acrylic. but for that, i'll need to upgrade my workshop. 2013-11-24 08:46 unclouded has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-24 09:10 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-24 09:40 unclouded has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-11-24 10:08 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-24 11:02 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-24 11:29 dandon has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-24 11:36 unclouded has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-24 11:48 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-24 11:59 xiangfu has quit [Quit: leaving] 2013-11-24 11:59 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-24 12:12 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-24 13:21 mth_ is now known as mth 2013-11-24 13:45 xiangfu_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-24 13:47 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-11-24 13:51 xiangfu__ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-24 14:00 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-24 14:07 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-24 14:33 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-11-24 14:55 rzk has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-24 14:58 rz2k has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-11-24 15:13 http://www.redmondpie.com/ios-core-ported-to-nokia-n900-opens-door-to-ios-running-on-non-apple-hardware-photos/ 2013-11-24 15:13 DocScrutinizer05: add iOS to the list of possible operating systems :pp 2013-11-24 15:14 tzz 2013-11-24 15:14 thanks anyway :-) 2013-11-24 15:15 it's not really ios though, just darwin 2013-11-24 15:15 which is, hilariously, foss 2013-11-24 15:24 xiangfu__ has quit [Quit: leaving] 2013-11-24 15:24 xiangfu_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 2013-11-24 15:40 I know 2013-11-24 15:41 it's pretty much like maemo: FOSS kernel and core services, with proprietary closed apps and higher layer services on top 2013-11-24 15:42 "for differentiation and to maintain quality" or similar bullshit 2013-11-24 15:42 which kills us especially for dialer 2013-11-24 15:44 which seems pretty simple at first thought, but turns out to have a dungeon of dependencies due to niche case handling you forget about when thinking "dialer" 2013-11-24 15:45 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-11-24 15:45 like 911 calls with device locked, 911 calls when device is overheated and usually wouldn't do any calls to protect hardware and battery, audio handling in a bazillion of different scenarios etc pp 2013-11-24 16:02 in unrelated news, the changes in last ~3 minor android versions are complete and utter bullshit 2013-11-24 16:02 google continues gutting out aosp and adding useless crap 2013-11-24 16:02 which means we went from one barely usable somewhat foss platform to zero. sad but predictable 2013-11-24 16:03 of course 2013-11-24 16:03 cyanogenmod will be usable for some years still, so there's that 2013-11-24 16:05 hm, sailfish now has android compat 2013-11-24 16:09 sailfish isn't 100% FOSS either 2013-11-24 16:10 yeah :/ 2013-11-24 16:10 though I'd be glad to test it on my phone 2013-11-24 16:10 it seems more appealing than Ubuntu Touch... for one, it's a real Linux 2013-11-24 16:11 there's also firefox os 2013-11-24 16:11 written entirely in javascript 2013-11-24 16:12 firefox OS and Tizen are not really appealing to me 2013-11-24 16:12 mostly because they look crap, I think 2013-11-24 16:13 it's like food, I taste first with my eyes :p 2013-11-24 16:13 does it? http://i-cdn.phonearena.com/images/articles/97650-thumb/firefox-os-mobile.jpg 2013-11-24 16:13 looks like yet another android/iphone ui clone 2013-11-24 16:14 if you look at their stencils, it's 80% a ripoff from android guidelines and patterns 2013-11-24 16:16 well, the girl is nice :p 2013-11-24 16:25 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BV1SY3tvYOs#t=358 2013-11-24 16:26 this is what I'm talking about 2013-11-24 16:26 it's laggy 2013-11-24 16:30 so javascript doesn't work very quickly on cheap hardware. who'd have thouht 2013-11-24 16:35 pcercuei has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-11-24 17:04 rzk has quit [] 2013-11-24 17:25 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-24 18:06 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1388595#post1388595 2013-11-24 18:08 do you have a sneak preview of the LTE critter ? if yes, you could post the intimidating page count :) 2013-11-24 18:08 hmm? 2013-11-24 18:09 http://m2m.gemalto.com/products/m2m-advanced/broadband/pls8.html 2013-11-24 18:09 what page count? 2013-11-24 18:09 I don't get it 2013-11-24 18:09 "those for the LTE modem are not available yet" ... "But the PHS8-E AT command set pdf has ~450 pages," 2013-11-24 18:10 PHS8 != PLS8 2013-11-24 18:10 the docs for PLS8 are not yet available 2013-11-24 18:11 no, we don't have any sneak preview 2013-11-24 18:11 "available" can mean that they haven't published it yet but you could still have a preliminary version. in this case you'd know the number of pages. 2013-11-24 18:11 ah, that wasn't clear 2013-11-24 18:12 also because you used "you may use it" and not "we may use it" 2013-11-24 18:12 sorry, just spent some time correcting some text. i'm still in editor mode ;-) 2013-11-24 18:12 since "we" are not interested in the stuff that guy is aiming at 2013-11-24 18:13 you don't care about using the module ? :) 2013-11-24 18:13 I suggested that *he* is using it to maybe get an idea how the LTE AT cmd set might look like 2013-11-24 18:13 and I'm not interested in continuing trolling 2013-11-24 18:14 I think that post is pretty clear unless you try to read between the lines 2013-11-24 18:14 qwazix is right. you definitely should make a 2nd call for preorders at least a week before placing any orders 2013-11-24 18:15 there's nothing to be read there 2013-11-24 18:15 I answered that 2013-11-24 18:15 note that things that have a long lead time may also allow you to increase the order size while waiting. so you may be able to accommodate latecomers. 2013-11-24 18:16 well, in any case you should plan to have a few spares since you can't predict your initial yield and want to err on the safe side 2013-11-24 18:16 we'll exploit any such option when it's offered 2013-11-24 18:16 we're planning for the usual amount of spares for warranty 2013-11-24 18:17 thanks 2013-11-24 18:17 more spares means more expensive product 2013-11-24 18:18 and we have no money in the kitty to produce for the shelf 2013-11-24 18:23 well, you shold plan your finances such that you end up with a bit on the plus side. not having enough is infinitely nastier than being able to pay yourself a little bonus at the end. 2013-11-24 18:24 and if you come out a few kEUR ahead, nobody will ask you to share the cell with madoff ;-) 2013-11-24 18:29 bartbes has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] 2013-11-24 18:29 bartbes has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-24 18:38 we're planning to get some payment, but that's negligible compared to the production cost and component cost of let's say 100 additional devices built for the shelf 2013-11-24 18:40 and we can't afford to e.g. buy 2k of a nasty connector at 3$ per unit (since it's not commonly available anymore particularly on lower MOQ) when we only need 300 and 1700 of them will rot on our shelf 2013-11-24 18:41 we may do this once, or for a batch size of maybe 800 devices, but not multiple times or for a batch size of 200 devices 2013-11-24 18:43 if we'd buy 2k of a 3$ component, to build 200 devices, then that adds 30$ to each device. Sure, simple math but I felt like stating it again 2013-11-24 18:53 yeah, the more volume you can get the better. that's also why you need a 2nd preorder round. only then will you have the real numbers. what you have now is a weird mix between donations, some "serious" preorders, some partial preorders that will never become a full order, a lot of people who just wait and see for now, and then even more people who'll only pay attention to your project once you have a complete prototype. 2013-11-24 18:54 we don't want to end with a zoom2-alike 1800EUR device, since that we will not be able to sell 2013-11-24 18:54 so the 16x you have now can very well become >> 1000 if things work well. but yes, you need pessimistic pricing. 2013-11-24 18:54 you are in that price range, though :) 2013-11-24 18:59 but don't worry. for now, what you've promised is merely to do the R&D and make a few prototypes. so far none of these pesky sourcing problems seem to endanger that. 2013-11-24 19:00 (i.e., you can just scavenge unobtainium parts from existing boards, as much as that may suck) 2013-11-24 19:06 yes 2013-11-24 19:30 porchaso0 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-24 19:30 porchao has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-11-24 19:36 unless they are so nastily glued to the PCB like the connector on the FPC flex, which broke completely whe I tried to unsolder it 2013-11-24 19:36 when* 2013-11-24 19:37 and I in the end heated the whole thing to I think 350° with hot air reflow station, for several minutes 2013-11-24 19:38 solder should get liquid at ~230°C the latest, so it wasn't insufficient heat for sure 2013-11-24 19:38 ah yes, glue can be a major nightmare 2013-11-24 19:41 I honestly ponder to ask *Nokia* about a few parts 2013-11-24 19:42 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-24 19:43 but the pondering itself is already making me feel embarrassed enough so this won't happen too soon, no matter how desperate I may get 2013-11-24 19:46 why not ? in fact, the sooner you ask, the better. remember the Great Storage Room Purge at OM ? that could also happen there 2013-11-24 19:47 but you'll want to be careful about approaching them. if you have some nokia contacts, maybe ask them first 2013-11-24 19:49 friendly nokia/ex-nokia contacts could also help you finding new sources of parts, be it places you don't know yet or introducing you to people at manufacturers who would normally not talk to you 2013-11-24 19:49 oh, and did you already ping molex ? 2013-11-24 19:51 (introductions) contacts are important. OM got a lot of things because someone at OM knew someone who'd make a little extra effort to help. 2013-11-24 19:57 yeah, we got good contacts to Cinterion :-D 2013-11-24 19:58 but not really to Nokia. Nokia hw manuf is typically lightyears separated from maemo branch 2013-11-24 19:59 think of it like apple and foxcon. maemo branch ordered a device at hw branch 2013-11-24 19:59 even in hw branch the EE don't usually know about sourcing 2013-11-24 20:00 they might know the guys who do the sourcing 2013-11-24 20:00 just like we at OM knew the guys sourcing components for us 2013-11-24 20:01 did we? 2013-11-24 20:04 i know i did a fair bit of sourcing when the FIC sourcing guys let us down. burnt right through sean's credit card limit in one night :) 2013-11-24 20:07 when OM separated from FIC, teenie did the sourcing. so yes, i knew whom to talk to :) (and most of the time i just bothered tony or tim. they knew how to take it from there.) 2013-11-24 20:14 (sourcing) is still remember that afternoon when we were about two weeks from a very important SMT run for HXD8. Dash were very annoyed with the project's performance so far (so the FIC daughter company that ran the project so far was shut down and the good people of the team got transplanted into OM) so it was crucial to make that one work. 2013-11-24 20:16 that afternoon, i thought it a little strange that nobody had been talking about sourcing issues, as such things tend to come up around that time. so i went over to teenie and innocently asked for the BOM. she told me she'll give it to me in a moment. so i went back to my cubicle and watched the antheap explode. 2013-11-24 20:17 after a couple of hours i had the first fragment of the BOM. also with some parts marked as "we don't have them yet". it took until about midnight for the complete BOM to disappear. with the density of vacancies increasing. 2013-11-24 20:18 well, some calls were made to FIC sourcing and they got to work. a couple of days later they had some good news and some bad news. the bad news included parts they couldn't find at all or that would have enormous lead times. 2013-11-24 20:19 porchao has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-24 20:20 i may not have caught that if it hadn't been for a design change we had introduced shortly before. that was a little logic circuit i had previously designed for GTA02 and i had of course researched the components back then. now, mere weeks later, it would take 4 months to source maybe a hundred pieces ? that didn't sound right. 2013-11-24 20:20 porchaso0 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-11-24 20:22 so i went to digi-key and checked what had happened. well, nothing - digi-key still had them by the thousands. so i suggested we order them from there. then teenie brought me more and more of those "impossible" components. most of them were easy to find. so a nice big order went out to digi-key. i think another to arrow as well. 2013-11-24 20:26 then another bit of bad news came in: they couldn't get the LCD (a clone of the PSP display). well, i found it at mouser. not cheap, though. that order cost OM some 15 kUSD. but in the end we succeeded and SMT went smoothly :) 2013-11-24 20:26 LOL 2013-11-24 20:27 yeah, those were the mad days at AOM 2013-11-24 20:27 OM* 2013-11-24 20:28 in some domains OM been incredbly naive and poor performance, often only mitigated by one guy (like you) making the difference 2013-11-24 20:28 (there was a bit of a fallout from it since FIC sourcing bitterly complained to the powers that be, about us bypassing them. of course, the same powers have been getting almost daily calls from that really upset customer and were quite aware of what sort of disaster we had averted there. so the fallout was mild :) 2013-11-24 20:29 haha 2013-11-24 20:31 I still recall our GTA03 8*8 LED matrix, with 64 series R ;-P 2013-11-24 20:31 once we started bypassing FIC sourcing, also others got creative. e.g., Dkay went on some mysterious scavenging missions and found the heaven knows where some tattered reels with components 2013-11-24 20:32 dkay been great 2013-11-24 20:32 ironically, FIC sourcing eventually also managed to find some of the things they had told us they couldn't get. i guess a little competition can be very useful :) 2013-11-24 20:32 really gifted guy 2013-11-24 20:33 yeah, wasted at OM 2013-11-24 20:34 well, they all been soooo young 2013-11-24 20:34 one problem at OM was that the good people could easily rise too high. e.g., dkay was more or less the rockstar of the EE department. he should have had someone more experienced on top to guide him. 2013-11-24 20:35 I could've been their granpa 2013-11-24 20:35 adam could have played that role but there was of course the tim vs. adam conflict 2013-11-24 20:35 well, I was there 2013-11-24 20:35 and I know why Sean and Wolfgang asked me to stay in TPE 2013-11-24 20:36 but in the end we westerners can do zilch for the chinese secret circle 2013-11-24 20:37 GOD office psychology 2013-11-24 20:37 how I hate it 2013-11-24 20:37 :) 2013-11-24 20:37 .oO(maybe we would have needed a counsellor on that spaceship) 2013-11-24 20:37 haha 2013-11-24 20:38 would have been a handful of work :) 2013-11-24 20:41 ohyeah 2013-11-24 20:42 Tim been actually kind of a problem 2013-11-24 20:47 oh, really ? :) 2013-11-24 21:12 oh noes, gpio-keys segfaults :( 2013-11-24 21:24 to report such a bug, should I mail the LKML or directly the maintainer first? 2013-11-24 21:41 darthdader has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-24 21:41 darthdader has quit [Client Quit] 2013-11-24 21:41 darthdader has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-24 21:42 darthdader has quit [Client Quit] 2013-11-24 22:11 lekernel has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-11-24 22:17 FDCX has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-24 22:24 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-24 22:59 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-11-24 22:59 lekernel has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2013-11-24 23:04 zear has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-11-24 23:15 zear has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-24 23:18 Mistah_Darcy_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-11-24 23:21 Mistah_Darcy has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]