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2013-11-22 18:03 <ysionneau> http://tessel.io < sounds nice
2013-11-22 18:03 <ysionneau> I wonder if they did anything more than compiling a javascript engine for arm
2013-11-22 18:04 <ysionneau> and a few low level libraries arduino like
2013-11-22 18:10 <whitequark> ysionneau: it's a very interesting concept, they compile javascript to lua bytecode
2013-11-22 18:10 <whitequark> and lua is probably the most efficient dynamic language around
2013-11-22 18:11 <whitequark> as in, I think it's actually okay to have high-level tasks written in lua on an embedded device
2013-11-22 18:11 <whitequark> plus, the authors seem quite competent.
2013-11-22 18:12 <whitequark> the downside of their approach is, well, a 32MB SDRAM chip there
2013-11-22 18:12 <whitequark> and lack of real-time out of the box, though I think the latter is fixable
2013-11-22 18:13 <whitequark> http://lua-users.org/wiki/LuaInRealTimePrograms
2013-11-22 18:13 <ysionneau> oh, so no javascript interpretor but Lua
2013-11-22 18:13 <ysionneau> I would not have expected that :)
2013-11-22 18:13 <ysionneau> I should really give it a try one day (Lua)
2013-11-22 18:13 <whitequark> I'm not sure whether this is an interpreter either
2013-11-22 18:14 <whitequark> luajit is truly an amazing thing, and with 32MB of spare RAM it can fly
2013-11-22 18:15 <whitequark> i.e. be within 2x-5x of C for non-numeric workloads. this is just a ballpark figure, since I don't know how good is luajit's ARM port, how good is their translator, etc.
2013-11-22 18:18 <ysionneau> interesting
2013-11-22 18:19 <whitequark> main drawback for this, imo, is that it's fundamentally still a toy, it's very much bound to one particular set of hardware
2013-11-22 18:20 <whitequark> and it neither has the required knobs to port it, nor the set of people most likely to use this are competent enough to do the port.
2013-11-22 18:22 <whitequark> a really nice toy though
2013-11-22 18:22 <ysionneau> yes
2013-11-22 18:22 <ysionneau> usually you buy this because you are a web developer wanting to give a try to hardware toys
2013-11-22 18:22 <whitequark> exactly
2013-11-22 18:22 <ysionneau> you only know web languages and then you're happy with the JS api
2013-11-22 18:22 <ysionneau> but you cannot port it to another board
2013-11-22 18:23 <ysionneau> but maybe a company can make a product out of it
2013-11-22 18:23 <ysionneau> with a small team of low level guys
2013-11-22 18:23 <ysionneau> and a big team of high level js-style guys
2013-11-22 18:23 <whitequark> I really like how the problem is solved from a technical standpoint, but I don't like the problem itself at all
2013-11-22 18:23 <ysionneau> like android is doing
2013-11-22 18:23 <whitequark> because it's a wrong one
2013-11-22 18:23 <whitequark> well
2013-11-22 18:24 <whitequark> android can exist like that because http://cdn.cultofmac.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/beforeandafteriphone.jpg
2013-11-22 18:24 <whitequark> all hardware it runs on is incredibly similar
2013-11-22 18:25 <ysionneau> well, phones before had a screen, a gsm radio, wifi could be optional, bluetooth also etc
2013-11-22 18:25 <whitequark> I mean, it differs mainly by {display,camera,sensor} resolution. they don't even have different sets of sensors anymore.
2013-11-22 18:25 <ysionneau> android api could "work" on old phones as well
2013-11-22 18:25 <whitequark> or sets of radios
2013-11-22 18:26 <whitequark> sure, but it's still very homogenous
2013-11-22 18:26 <ysionneau> well yes, I don't think you can hook up an Infra-red communication port for instance
2013-11-22 18:27 <ysionneau> or an ultrasonic detector
2013-11-22 18:27 <ysionneau> well, you can, but not within android own's api
2013-11-22 18:27 <ysionneau> you need to extend it (JNI, libhardware etc)
2013-11-22 18:28 <ysionneau> maybe the API is too "narrow" for now
2013-11-22 18:28 <ysionneau> maybe it will get more generic one day
2013-11-22 18:28 <ysionneau> but it's difficult when you want to have a big app store compatible with a lot of phones
2013-11-22 18:29 <ysionneau> you wanna have a very clear API, not some vague indication of an "I/O" device that one can inherit from and do it's ultrasonic interface etc
2013-11-22 18:29 <ysionneau> hum :(
2013-11-22 18:29 <ysionneau> I guess that's a tradeoff
2013-11-22 18:29 <whitequark> I'm not sure how app store model works for embedded device
2013-11-22 18:29 <whitequark> they'd need a complete opposite of that
2013-11-22 18:29 <ysionneau> works for phone for the reason you mentioned
2013-11-22 18:29 <whitequark> exactly
2013-11-22 18:30 <wpwrak> (before/after) before, phones were colorful and small. now they're big and try to be threatening.
2013-11-22 18:30 <ysionneau> maybe it could somehow work, less perfectly maybe than with today's phone, with a more semantic approach for the api
2013-11-22 18:30 <whitequark> ysionneau: I don't think so
2013-11-22 18:30 <ysionneau> instead of for instance drawing a TextEdit field in Java in the android app
2013-11-22 18:31 <ysionneau> you could say AskTheUserForAString()
2013-11-22 18:31 <whitequark> you can afford using your hw less efficiently for PC and phones because there's so much of them and because of that they're cheap
2013-11-22 18:31 <ysionneau> and it could be implemented several ways depending on the hardware
2013-11-22 18:31 <ysionneau> if there is voice recognition, keyboard/screen, bluetooth RFCOM
2013-11-22 18:31 <ysionneau> etc
2013-11-22 18:31 <whitequark> so you transfer some cost from developers to hardware
2013-11-22 18:32 <whitequark> and it works, because a lot of well-paid people develop for a very narrow range of cheap hardware
2013-11-22 18:32 <whitequark> but if you're doing something custom, there's pretty much the opposite
2013-11-22 18:32 <ysionneau> hum hum
2013-11-22 18:32 <whitequark> a single team develops a specialized application where every cent multiplicates in big production runs
2013-11-22 18:33 <ysionneau> yep , indeed
2013-11-22 18:33 <whitequark> so it makes sense to use your underlying platform for all it's worth (and maybe slightly more :)
2013-11-22 18:33 <ysionneau> funny to think about that
2013-11-22 18:33 <ysionneau> since I used to work on an embedded product (so I understand the using the hw at 120% and every cent is multiplicated for production) ... running android :)
2013-11-22 18:34 <ysionneau> we ended up creating our own little application store
2013-11-22 18:34 <ysionneau> not the google play store
2013-11-22 18:34 <whitequark> I'm not sure if most stuff running android can be considered embedded anymore
2013-11-22 18:34 <whitequark> according to dynamics I just described
2013-11-22 18:34 <ysionneau> héhé
2013-11-22 18:34 <whitequark> it's closer to PC
2013-11-22 18:34 <ysionneau> indeed
2013-11-22 18:34 <ysionneau> like all of today's phone
2013-11-22 18:34 <whitequark> yup
2013-11-22 18:35 <ysionneau> it was OMAP3 based product
2013-11-22 18:35 <ysionneau> 512 MB ram ... 1 GB nand flash
2013-11-22 18:35 <ysionneau> "big stuf"
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2013-11-22 18:42 <DocScrutinizer05> ysionneau: don't get me started
2013-11-22 18:42 <ysionneau> with?
2013-11-22 18:43 <DocScrutinizer05> 512MB-RAM/1GB-NAND
2013-11-22 18:43 <ysionneau> omap? :p
2013-11-22 18:43 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: do start :)
2013-11-22 18:43 <ysionneau> that's your hw for the neo900 right?
2013-11-22 18:43 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm about to go nuts with trying to source a 1GB RAM PoP
2013-11-22 18:43 <ysionneau> oh
2013-11-22 18:43 <ysionneau> pop
2013-11-22 18:44 <ysionneau> Can you do high bandwidth with pop? not too much interference?
2013-11-22 18:44 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm?
2013-11-22 18:44 <ysionneau> package on package?
2013-11-22 18:44 <DocScrutinizer05> yep
2013-11-22 18:44 <ysionneau> if you put a cpu, then flash on top, then DDR on top
2013-11-22 18:45 <ysionneau> you get hell lot of high frequency signals very next one to another
2013-11-22 18:45 <DocScrutinizer05> mt46h256m32l4jv-5
2013-11-22 18:45 <ysionneau> with length matching etc which are important, AND impedance
2013-11-22 18:45 <DocScrutinizer05> there's no 3-floors PoP sandwich
2013-11-22 18:45 <ysionneau> really?
2013-11-22 18:45 <ysionneau> I thoug
2013-11-22 18:45 <ysionneau> tought*
2013-11-22 18:45 <ysionneau> thought*
2013-11-22 18:46 <DocScrutinizer05> that would be so nice if we could stack NAND and RAM in separate PoP packages on top of OMAP3
2013-11-22 18:46 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer05: given up on non-pop ?
2013-11-22 18:46 <DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak: last resort
2013-11-22 18:47 <DocScrutinizer05> CUS kills one UART and one McBSP and a few GPIO for us
2013-11-22 18:47 <ysionneau> one uart is not working on CUS package?
2013-11-22 18:47 <wpwrak> (last resort) ah, still stuck in idealism. that was Hegel, right ? :)
2013-11-22 18:47 <DocScrutinizer05> CPB with only RAM on PoP stoll kills a few bottom-balls for attaching NAND
2013-11-22 18:48 <DocScrutinizer05> still*
2013-11-22 18:48 <DocScrutinizer05> CBP?
2013-11-22 18:49 <DocScrutinizer05> mt46h256m32l4jv "contact factory!" "MOQ: 1000"
2013-11-22 18:49 <DocScrutinizer05> >:-(
2013-11-22 18:51 <ysionneau> aaaaaah pinout and pin multiplexing of big chips
2013-11-22 18:51 <ysionneau> always a problem
2013-11-22 18:52 <ysionneau> they support dozens of hw interfaces, have hundreds of balls
2013-11-22 18:52 <ysionneau> but in the end you can only us half the features
2013-11-22 18:52 <ysionneau> use*
2013-11-22 18:52 <DocScrutinizer05> exactly
2013-11-22 18:53 <DocScrutinizer05> and we need 1GByte of RAM, and don't want to lose the functions we have so far, with the 512MB-RAM/1GB-NAND PoP-168 solution
2013-11-22 18:54 <DocScrutinizer05> and that damn critter mt46h256m32l4jv-5 is almost impossible to source it seems
2013-11-22 18:54 <DocScrutinizer05> the solution in N9 (1GB RAM + NAND) is totally "non-existent"
2013-11-22 18:55 <DocScrutinizer05> (Nokia N9 is using a OMAP3630 with 1GB RAM and NAND)
2013-11-22 18:55 <wpwrak> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model
2013-11-22 18:56 <DocScrutinizer05> meh
2013-11-22 18:56 * ysionneau has been using 3630 CUS with 512 GB RAM (dual chips) and 1 GB NAND
2013-11-22 18:56 <wpwrak> it seems that you're in phase 3 now. two more and you'll be happy with a non-PoP solution :)
2013-11-22 18:56 <ysionneau> it seems very dangerous to start a new product using omap3
2013-11-22 18:56 <ysionneau> it's getting really old
2013-11-22 18:56 <ysionneau> and TI hotline sucks
2013-11-22 18:57 <DocScrutinizer05> this is no "new2 project
2013-11-22 18:57 <ysionneau> BUT at least loooooooots of silicon bugs have been discovered
2013-11-22 18:57 <ysionneau> you have them all nicely listed in the silicon errata
2013-11-22 18:57 <ysionneau> compared to brand new chips
2013-11-22 18:57 <wpwrak> i think all the legacy software they still have to substitute will leave them no other choice
2013-11-22 18:57 <DocScrutinizer05> yep
2013-11-22 18:58 <wpwrak> (errata) at least they'll always have a good excuse :)
2013-11-22 18:58 <ysionneau> I prefer a chip with lots of silicon errata but listed
2013-11-22 18:58 <ysionneau> than a chip with few and unlisted :p
2013-11-22 18:58 <DocScrutinizer05> like omap4
2013-11-22 18:58 <DocScrutinizer05> which has SiErr I know of that are *really* nasty
2013-11-22 18:58 <wpwrak> yeah. or one with many, you find and report them, others confirm them too, but the manufacturer denies their existence. (hi, samsung !)
2013-11-22 18:58 <DocScrutinizer05> and are not listed anywhere
2013-11-22 18:59 <DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak: Hi TI OMAP4
2013-11-22 19:00 <ysionneau> TI does not care about omap anymore
2013-11-22 19:00 <ysionneau> and omap3 is damn old
2013-11-22 19:00 <wpwrak> maybe they have a cross-border engineer exchange program :)
2013-11-22 19:00 <ysionneau> it's like EOL'd in their mind
2013-11-22 19:00 <DocScrutinizer05> when PVR busy and CPU suspended, a wake IRQ from e.g. HSI interface may go unnoticed by the IRQ-controller
2013-11-22 19:00 <wpwrak> EOL = you with the customers would die
2013-11-22 19:01 <wpwrak> s/with/wish/
2013-11-22 19:01 <qi-bot> wpwrak meant: "EOL = you wish the customers would die"
2013-11-22 19:01 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer05: bah, suspending a CPU is always asking for trouble. have you learned nothing at OM ? (-:C
2013-11-22 19:02 <DocScrutinizer05> since HSI protocol is implemented on hw level and you hardly can change that, you're in a real pinch when suddenly your HSI locks up
2013-11-22 19:02 <DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak: on OMAP suspending one IP is not the same as suspending the system
2013-11-22 19:03 <ysionneau> DocScrutinizer05: ahah very nice bug :)
2013-11-22 19:03 <DocScrutinizer05> sth nobody in openmoko ever wrapped their head around
2013-11-22 19:03 <ysionneau> omap is a giant monster
2013-11-22 19:04 <ysionneau> I'm really amazed at how much logic we can put in modern chips
2013-11-22 19:04 <ysionneau> big caches... bit multi core cpus ... co-processors, tons of controllers
2013-11-22 19:04 <ysionneau> big*
2013-11-22 19:04 <DocScrutinizer05> even GTA04 SHR and other OS implemetations still use that insane suspend-to-ram approach
2013-11-22 19:04 <ysionneau> big GPUs
2013-11-22 19:05 <DocScrutinizer05> google SmartRefelx
2013-11-22 19:05 <DocScrutinizer05> SmartReflex even
2013-11-22 19:05 <ysionneau> and omap36xx is "only" 45 nm tech
2013-11-22 19:05 <ysionneau> crazy
2013-11-22 19:05 <DocScrutinizer05> yes
2013-11-22 19:05 <DocScrutinizer05> compared to 65nm in 3430
2013-11-22 19:05 <ysionneau> yep
2013-11-22 19:05 <DocScrutinizer05> thus it's faster and less energy hungry
2013-11-22 19:23 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: suspend-to-ram?
2013-11-22 19:23 <whitequark> do you mean it shuts down every single part of the kernel instead of just stopping cpu clock?
2013-11-22 19:24 <larsc> wpwrak: the don't exist for _you_
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2013-11-22 19:37 <DocScrutinizer05> whitequark: that's what I think it (SHR, even QtMoko?) does, yes
2013-11-22 19:39 <DocScrutinizer05> while maemo (kernel) is optimized for doing zero clock. And that's what makes the differnece
2013-11-22 19:39 <DocScrutinizer05> on S3C2442 we had no such thing like proper zero-clock AFAIK
2013-11-22 19:40 <DocScrutinizer05> and all "openmoko" distros thus are still using the insane suspend-to-ram approach
2013-11-22 19:41 <DocScrutinizer05> while on maemo it's not even 100% supported
2013-11-22 19:41 <DocScrutinizer05> of corse, since: what for would maemo need that?
2013-11-22 19:42 <DocScrutinizer05> course*
2013-11-22 19:47 <larsc> modern kernels use somethink called runtime PM, which is more or less a distributed suspend to ram. The components are shutdown whenever they are not needed and their state (if necessary) is saved to RAM
2013-11-22 19:48 <larsc> something
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2013-11-22 20:08 <DocScrutinizer05> :nod:
2013-11-22 20:08 <DocScrutinizer05> PM kernel
2013-11-22 20:08 <DocScrutinizer05> omap PM extensions
2013-11-22 20:11 <DocScrutinizer05> everything done right, GTA04 shouldn't need any special care taken about power management, nor should it need any suspend-to-ram
2013-11-22 20:11 <DocScrutinizer05> on 3.12 PM kernel
2013-11-22 20:11 <DocScrutinizer05> AIUI
2013-11-22 20:12 <DocScrutinizer05> maemo Linux 2.6.28-omap1 #1 PREEMPT kernel already had all that, aiui
2013-11-22 20:13 <larsc> for certain definitions of "all" ;)
2013-11-22 20:13 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, no friggin DT
2013-11-22 20:13 <DocScrutinizer05> which made things a LOT easier
2013-11-22 20:14 <DocScrutinizer05> but also disqualified the kernel to go upstream
2013-11-22 20:14 <whitequark> DT?
2013-11-22 20:14 <DocScrutinizer05> device tree
2013-11-22 20:14 <larsc> DT makes so many things so much easier (If done right)
2013-11-22 20:14 <DocScrutinizer05> the new acpi
2013-11-22 20:15 <larsc> the old acpi
2013-11-22 20:15 <DocScrutinizer05> the problem is: DT is not done right ;-)
2013-11-22 20:15 <whitequark> how would you do it right?
2013-11-22 20:16 <larsc> DocScrutinizer05: you have no idea what you are talking about ;)
2013-11-22 20:16 <DocScrutinizer05> probably in sourcecode in the end. there's no way to describe reality comprehensively in any simple grammar like used in DT
2013-11-22 20:16 <DocScrutinizer05> larsc: that's correct
2013-11-22 20:18 <DocScrutinizer05> how would you describe in DT that USB should wake up from USB-suspend-mode when GPIO_174 gets a signal?
2013-11-22 20:19 <larsc> wakup-gpio = <&gpio 174>;
2013-11-22 20:19 <larsc> ;)
2013-11-22 20:19 <DocScrutinizer05> how would you describe the 2 seconds pull-to-low needed on GPIO_160 to make modem power up?
2013-11-22 20:19 <larsc> (Yes, I know what the problem with USB and devicetree is)
2013-11-22 20:19 <larsc> power-up-dealy = <2>;
2013-11-22 20:21 <DocScrutinizer05> uhuh, and now your modem driver for USB attached modem knows about pulling down GPIO_160 for two seconds to power up the modem?
2013-11-22 20:21 <larsc> sure, if you wrote your modem driver that way
2013-11-22 20:21 <DocScrutinizer05> dang, that must be a pretty universal driver
2013-11-22 20:21 <larsc> well it can be very specific to your device
2013-11-22 20:21 <DocScrutinizer05> or wait, why do I need DT then?
2013-11-22 20:22 <larsc> to describe the topology
2013-11-22 20:22 <DocScrutinizer05> LOL
2013-11-22 20:22 <larsc> the same modem might be used on a different board
2013-11-22 20:22 <larsc> or a similar modem
2013-11-22 20:22 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, with completely different glue stuff#
2013-11-22 20:23 <larsc> if the glue is complex enough it will need its own driver
2013-11-22 20:23 <DocScrutinizer05> LOL
2013-11-22 20:23 <larsc> but that's nothing new
2013-11-22 20:23 <DocScrutinizer05> how about a structured netlist of the hardware ;-P
2013-11-22 20:23 <DocScrutinizer05> and a driver for every transistor
2013-11-22 20:24 <DocScrutinizer05> THAT would make a working comprehensive implementation of a DT
2013-11-22 20:24 <DocScrutinizer05> wait, isn't that pspice?
2013-11-22 20:27 <DocScrutinizer05> DT is fine for standard function blocks like e.g. I2C, it never will be comprehensive though, to handle all the special hacks of your particular hw platform
2013-11-22 20:28 <larsc> yea
2013-11-22 20:29 <DocScrutinizer05> IOW you'll always nee a driver like PHS8modem_in_Neo900.ko
2013-11-22 20:29 <DocScrutinizer05> need*
2013-11-22 20:30 <DocScrutinizer05> several of those, on any arbitrary platform
2013-11-22 20:30 <roh> DocScrutinizer05: well.. maybe that should make you think about how one abuses interfaces
2013-11-22 20:30 <DocScrutinizer05> prolly not
2013-11-22 20:30 <larsc> DocScrutinizer05: so?
2013-11-22 20:30 <roh> if its not abused (usb+gpio is NOT just usb anymore) dt is fine and enough.
2013-11-22 20:31 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm an EE and I won't adapt my circuits to a hyped coding style on any particular sw-engineering community
2013-11-22 20:31 <roh> often its simply used to distinguish dozends of very similar boards with simply different pcb routing and thus led, button and sometimes port ordering or used switch chips, phys, memory... (thus timing), flash etc
2013-11-22 20:32 <roh> DocScrutinizer05: do proper EE interfaces and youre in the clear. if you do hacks like usb+gpio you WILL need custom gluecode. which you can configure by dt again
2013-11-22 20:32 <larsc> DocScrutinizer05: I'm a SW and HDL guy and I write my HDL cores so they work fine with the existing software ecosystem
2013-11-22 20:32 <DocScrutinizer05> my hardware is designed to excel when driven by a tailored-to-fit software
2013-11-22 20:33 <larsc> you should also design your cicuits so they work fine with the existing software ecosystem
2013-11-22 20:33 <roh> and now we know why EE hw may be nice but you never get proper maintained sw for it ;)
2013-11-22 20:33 <DocScrutinizer05> larsc: please take that to MIPI
2013-11-22 20:33 <DocScrutinizer05> and to TI
2013-11-22 20:33 <larsc> my HDL cores?
2013-11-22 20:33 <DocScrutinizer05> and to USB-board
2013-11-22 20:34 <larsc> ;)
2013-11-22 20:34 <DocScrutinizer05> your request
2013-11-22 20:34 <larsc> sooner or later even they will realize that this is a competitve advantage
2013-11-22 20:35 <DocScrutinizer05> sooner or later YOU will notice that reality isn't based on sourcecode
2013-11-22 20:36 <larsc> it's based on money
2013-11-22 20:36 <DocScrutinizer05> there's areality (aka hardware and physics) and you (sw-engineer) have to deal with it
2013-11-22 20:36 <larsc> building hardware that works is one way to generate money
2013-11-22 20:37 <larsc> I build 'hardware' and usually it works better at a fraction of the resource than other hardware with similar features
2013-11-22 20:37 <DocScrutinizer05> you kernel guys tried once (at least once) before to make reality adapt to your software defined ideal. It failed epically
2013-11-22 20:38 <larsc> and I'm able to do that because I know what the software needs and what not
2013-11-22 20:38 <DocScrutinizer05> ORLY
2013-11-22 20:38 <DocScrutinizer05> and I throw dice to develop my hardware?
2013-11-22 20:38 <larsc> I have no idea
2013-11-22 20:38 <larsc> maybe
2013-11-22 20:38 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, evidently
2013-11-22 20:39 <larsc> if you don't know the requirements you can try as much as you want it will be more or less chance if your design meets the requirements or not
2013-11-22 20:40 <DocScrutinizer05> "maybe" is probably based on you throwing dice to determine the code you write? by deduction
2013-11-22 20:40 <DocScrutinizer05> and please stop teaching 101 here
2013-11-22 20:41 <DocScrutinizer05> your last post is outright silly
2013-11-22 20:42 <larsc> why?
2013-11-22 20:43 <DocScrutinizer05> why? maybe because nobody here needs to get educated about basic logics
2013-11-22 20:43 <larsc> good
2013-11-22 20:43 <DocScrutinizer05> when you don't know about X you can't act according to X
2013-11-22 20:43 <DocScrutinizer05> KTNX
2013-11-22 20:43 <DocScrutinizer05> ooh, you heard about it? 1+1=2 (usually)
2013-11-22 20:44 <larsc> sometimes
2013-11-22 20:44 <DocScrutinizer05> meh, I got better things to do that to feed the troll
2013-11-22 20:44 <DocScrutinizer05> cya
2013-11-22 20:47 <whitequark> huh
2013-11-22 20:48 <larsc> I'm just saying the days where you can first build hardware, then write the software for it are over
2013-11-22 20:48 <larsc> the integration process has to start much earlier
2013-11-22 20:49 <whitequark> was this ever true? I recall EWD describing how it gave his team a significant advantage
2013-11-22 20:49 <whitequark> in like 60s
2013-11-22 20:49 <wpwrak> first you do the recalls, then you sell, then you fix the bugs, then the hw bugs, the you write the sw, at the very end you make the hw :)
2013-11-22 20:50 <wpwrak> s/fix the bugs/fix the sw bugs/
2013-11-22 20:50 <qi-bot> wpwrak meant: "first you do the recalls, then you sell, then you fix the sw bugs, then the hw bugs, the you write the sw, at the very end you make the hw :)"
2013-11-22 20:51 <wpwrak> if you're really good, you never fix the bugs, you just add new ones fast enough that nobody notices :)
2013-11-22 20:51 <larsc> wpwrak: well it's truer than ever - or how does the saying go
2013-11-22 20:51 <larsc> wolfspraul:
2013-11-22 20:52 <larsc> argh
2013-11-22 20:52 <larsc> whitequark:
2013-11-22 20:52 <larsc> still too many w
2013-11-22 20:52 <larsc> whitequark: do you have a link
2013-11-22 20:52 <larsc> ?
2013-11-22 20:54 <larsc> found this when google dijkstra and competitive advantage: "The alternative —also practised— is to consider competence an unfair advantage." :)
2013-11-22 20:57 <whitequark> larsc: http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD11xx/EWD1166.html
2013-11-22 20:57 <whitequark> I think
2013-11-22 20:57 <whitequark> there may be more relevant results
2013-11-22 20:58 <whitequark> also, you could measure snarkiness in nanodijkstras either :)
2013-11-22 20:58 <whitequark> this would too: http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/EWD01xx/EWD196.html
2013-11-22 20:59 <larsc> thanks
2013-11-22 21:00 <whitequark> I feel there's a better one but can't find it
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2013-11-22 23:23 <DocScrutinizer05> [2013-11-22 22:28:07] * NishanthMenon thinks they made grass legal too soon.. DT became ABI as a result :P
2013-11-22 23:28 <DocScrutinizer05> [2013-11-22 20:43:26] <NishanthMenon> mag for dm3730 - the following are needed for 1GHz support in kernel: a) dt clock nodes, b) generic voltage layer for cpufreq, c) abb nodes, d) avs 1.5 support (which includes avs migration to dts), e) putting everything together ;)
2013-11-22 23:28 <DocScrutinizer05> [2013-11-22 20:43:45] <NishanthMenon> mag, pre-dt we just needed class1.5 ;) - with dt, we are 4 levels set back
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2013-11-22 23:28 <DocScrutinizer05> so I guess unlike me this guy(?) knows what he's talking about
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2013-11-22 23:42 <wpwrak> at least he seems to know his acronyms ;-)
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2013-11-22 23:44 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer05: btw, what are you using for BT ?
2013-11-22 23:44 <DocScrutinizer05> still vapor
2013-11-22 23:45 <DocScrutinizer05> [2013-11-22 20:54:27] <NishanthMenon> DocScrutinizer05, i used to be part of N900 kernel team ;)
2013-11-22 23:46 <DocScrutinizer05> [2013-11-22 20:54:41] <NishanthMenon> you should see quiet a few patches from me already in the original kernel ;)
2013-11-22 23:47 <wpwrak> got any list of candidates ?
2013-11-22 23:47 <DocScrutinizer05> err, check feasibility study
2013-11-22 23:47 <DocScrutinizer05> I think it's coming with WLAN
2013-11-22 23:48 <DocScrutinizer05> we're not there yet
2013-11-22 23:48 <DocScrutinizer05> we're going to use a mudule for WLAN, and many of those come with BT naturally merged in
2013-11-22 23:49 <DocScrutinizer05> module*
2013-11-22 23:49 <DocScrutinizer05> they coexist nicely this way ;-)
2013-11-22 23:49 <wpwrak> ok, that makes sense.