2013-11-02 00:20 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: cae-tools/cameo/fped2stl.pl (flush): substitute coordinates only once (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/e62da4e
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2013-11-02 18:13 <DocScrutinizer05> aaaaand level-II accomplished
2013-11-02 18:13 <DocScrutinizer05> \o/
2013-11-02 18:15 <kristianpaul> hmm?
2013-11-02 18:15 <wpwrak> whoo !
2013-11-02 18:16 <wpwrak> before you know it, you'll have one of those 100x over-funded projects on your hands ;-)
2013-11-02 18:24 <larsc> time to start looking for a nice island in the caribbean to buy ;)
2013-11-02 18:38 <roh> level2?
2013-11-02 18:40 <larsc> 15k
2013-11-02 18:51 <DocScrutinizer05> 15k in 3 days isn't that bad
2013-11-02 18:52 <DocScrutinizer05> particularly *donations*, not any preorder with refunding warranty crap kickstarter
2013-11-02 18:52 <DocScrutinizer05> and still a lot of "destinations" is not even supported (quite unfortunate :-/ )
2013-11-02 18:54 <DocScrutinizer05> I had 3 requests from users in china and other non supported destinations just today. Poor Nikolaus will receive a number of emails
2013-11-02 18:55 <DocScrutinizer05> roh: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1383978#post1383978
2013-11-02 18:57 <wpwrak> oh, indeed. about half the planet is excluded.
2013-11-02 18:58 <wpwrak> no latin america, no africa, no middle east or india, no russia, china, taiwan and many of the other smaller asian countries
2013-11-02 18:58 <roh> DocScrutinizer05: congrats
2013-11-02 18:59 <roh> DocScrutinizer05: whats not clear to me: how is the maemo5 stuff you want to use (am i correct there) tied to the jolla stuff=
2013-11-02 19:00 <DocScrutinizer05> jolla? not at all
2013-11-02 19:01 <roh> i see. i thought jolla is 'just' harmattan with much more development added
2013-11-02 19:02 <roh> well.. interresting things happening. nice to see your project proceed
2013-11-02 19:05 <DocScrutinizer05> maybe jolla aka sailfish is kinda "just harmattan" but actually harmattan is not just maemo
2013-11-02 19:06 <DocScrutinizer05> and on Neo900 we run fremantle, not harmattan
2013-11-02 19:06 <DocScrutinizer05> fremantle==maemo5, harmattan==meego (aka maemo6_almost)
2013-11-02 19:07 <DocScrutinizer05> probably harmattan is closer to sailfish than to fremantle
2013-11-02 19:07 <DocScrutinizer05> well, s/sailfish/nemo/ (aiui)
2013-11-02 19:08 <roh> i see
2013-11-02 19:11 <DocScrutinizer05> the whole concept of meego/harmattan based on QML and thus is kinda similar to other browser-based "OS" (rather: "desktops") basically
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2013-11-02 19:12 <DocScrutinizer05> you still *can* develop plain X11 apps usng whatever toolkit for gfx you like
2013-11-02 19:13 <DocScrutinizer05> on sailfish/nemo they use some Qt flavour still, I think, but they discarded X11 and go for some wayland crap that not even supports X11 via compatibility layer anymore
2013-11-02 19:14 <DocScrutinizer05> for me that starts to tase stale, when it's abled 'linux'
2013-11-02 19:14 <DocScrutinizer05> labeled even
2013-11-02 19:15 <DocScrutinizer05> kinda reminds me at that qtopia episode
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2013-11-02 19:18 <DocScrutinizer05> to me sailfish is as much linux as OSX
2013-11-02 19:20 <DocScrutinizer05> and it's completely up to everybody's guess how open the whole jolla phone and OS incl core apps will be in the end. It seems they again go for "differnetiation" and similr excuses to not make their core apps like dialer etc or even the whole desktop FOSS
2013-11-02 19:22 <DocScrutinizer05> and definitely the whole UX concept moved focus from the NIT-paradigm to the smartphone/iPhone-MeToo-thinking
2013-11-02 19:22 <DocScrutinizer05> "user doesn't need a unix system. User wants apps"
2013-11-02 19:22 <DocScrutinizer05> BS
2013-11-02 19:23 <DocScrutinizer05> "we go wayland so we can playback HD" - WTF?!? Who needs HD on a 4" display?
2013-11-02 19:24 <DocScrutinizer05> play your dang HD to the HDMI output (so there's any such thing on your hw) using a mplayer specialized to do exactly that
2013-11-02 19:25 <DocScrutinizer05> leave alone the device display and the display server that handles it!
2013-11-02 19:26 <DocScrutinizer05> playback of HD on a 800*480 (or whatever) display - I must suffer from delusions
2013-11-02 19:31 <DocScrutinizer05> ubuntuization
2013-11-02 19:31 <wpwrak> well, they're putting ultra-high-res displays into those obesity-enhanced "phones" now. probably to give that hecacore something that will keep it at least 10% occupied.
2013-11-02 19:32 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah
2013-11-02 19:33 <DocScrutinizer05> and special siuts that have dynomos at every joint, so you recharge the 7Ah battery with every move you do
2013-11-02 19:34 <DocScrutinizer05> grr. suits, dynamos*
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2013-11-02 21:07 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo/fped2stl.pl: sort layers by Z position (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/4fa9e12
2013-11-02 21:07 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo/fped2stl.pl: new options -x and -y to flip on X and Y axis (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/5b70e92
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2013-11-02 21:14 <eintopf> yay
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2013-11-02 22:48 <wpwrak> CAD modeling, the Bruce Willis way :)
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2013-11-02 22:54 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: arguably there *is* an advantage for high-res displays. they just look nicer.
2013-11-02 22:54 <whitequark> you may not care for the quality of the thing you stare at for the better time of the day, but I do. the more DPI, the better (until it hits the resolution of the eye.(
2013-11-02 22:54 <whitequark> *).
2013-11-02 22:55 <whitequark> btw, another thing wayland solves is display tearing, which *is* important when you want to have smooth animations, which *are* important to have usable touch UI
2013-11-02 22:56 <whitequark> it's somewhat overhyped, yeah, but unimportant? no way in hell. if you weren't doing a touch device at all, now that would be interesting, but as long as you do, you have to play by the rules.
2013-11-02 23:04 <wpwrak> the problem with high-res is sourcing. there are three interconnected parameters, 1) bleeding edge, 2) openness, 3) your wealth. you have to sacrifice at least one.
2013-11-02 23:05 <wpwrak> so if you want bleeding edge AND openness, you better be prepared to purchase a company like broadcom, qualcomm, or similar, just to get the rights needed to open a bleeding edge product.
2013-11-02 23:06 <wpwrak> if you want bleeding edge and don't have that kind of money, you have to live with closed hardware.
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2013-11-02 23:07 <whitequark> that's true. I just wanted to say that bleeding edge is not all just bells and whistles, regardless of whether we can tap it or not
2013-11-02 23:07 <wpwrak> or you lower your demands in the bleeding edge area, and you have a chance to get something done that's open and still doesn't require millions
2013-11-02 23:08 <wpwrak> yeah, it offers some benefits. but in many cases, you only notice them in a side-by-side comparison.
2013-11-02 23:09 <whitequark> well, if not for side-by-side comparisons, we'd still all be running windows mobile 5 :) it all depends on what's your top priority.
2013-11-02 23:10 <whitequark> wait, russia is not a supported destination for neo900?.. sigh
2013-11-02 23:11 <dos1> isn't the dpi of devices like freerunner or n900 already high enough to be near eye resolution?
2013-11-02 23:11 <wpwrak> for me the main goals would be 1) does it handle basic everyday use well ? (e.g., if it already sucks to send an SMS, i may not like it)  2) is there a good way for people like me to add nice things ?  3) will it live long enough to actually make it worth my time to learn about all the cool things it can do ?
2013-11-02 23:11 <dos1> russia is supported, but via individual contact
2013-11-02 23:12 <whitequark> dos1: not nearly. my e973 has 320 dpi and it's slightly lower. I think at typical view distance for phones it's around 350 dpi.
2013-11-02 23:13 <wpwrak> dos1: the gta01/gta02 had, at their time, the highest resolution in the market. probably by a good margin. i think that proves that resolution alone isn't enough :)
2013-11-02 23:13 <whitequark> wpwrak: (main goals) I agree, though to me there's less of 3), and more of "do I will resent myself every day for buying this device at all?"
2013-11-02 23:14 <wpwrak> and of course, they were darn slow as a consequence. especially after adding the g-lam(e)-o graphics decelerator :-)
2013-11-02 23:14 <wpwrak> whitequark: i count on superior human adaptation skills ;-)
2013-11-02 23:15 <whitequark> wpwrak: actually, neo900 isn't that not-bleeding-edge
2013-11-02 23:16 <whitequark> plenty of RAM, more storage than my current phone, decent sensors and communications and camera
2013-11-02 23:16 <wpwrak> whitequark: and usability is much much more than just pretty pictures. you have to understand the workflow. e.g., once had an HP 100LX, monochrome CGA. it had a calendar with a great monthly overview. i've never seen anything like that afterwards. it wasn't fancy, far from it. just a very clean and efficient implementation of the concept.
2013-11-02 23:17 <whitequark> wpwrak: (main goals) I agree, though to me there's less of 3), and more of "do I will resent myself every day for buying this device at all?"
2013-11-02 23:17 <whitequark> errr
2013-11-02 23:17 <whitequark> what the hell irssi
2013-11-02 23:18 <whitequark> what I wanted to say: "the CPU isn't dual-core, but that's not going to matter with the smaller display, I think"
2013-11-02 23:18 <whitequark> if it does the job well, the only thing I would truly miss when compared to my current phone is 802.11a
2013-11-02 23:18 <whitequark> well, an
2013-11-02 23:19 <whitequark> it's weird when your cellular is faster than your wifi
2013-11-02 23:19 <whitequark> wpwrak: (usability) sure, but FOSS isn't exactly known by its great UI.
2013-11-02 23:20 <wpwrak> 1 x 1 GHz ought to be plenty :) i kinda wonder by how many orders of magnitude, say, android applications are slower than just native C would be.
2013-11-02 23:20 <whitequark> wpwrak: for non-computational workloads, by not much. it much more depends on, say, properly tuned GC and task priorities than raw computing power.
2013-11-02 23:20 <whitequark> also, on android you can always drop down to native.
2013-11-02 23:21 <wpwrak> usability is mainly about workflows. most of the things you do, you do often. so a nice gui helps you on the first two days, but doesn't matter all the years after.
2013-11-02 23:22 <whitequark> it's not "nice" as in "intuitively understandable" (no such thing?), but just well-done. I don't want my everyday workflows to take 5x more time than necessary.
2013-11-02 23:22 <wpwrak> hmm, then they must have lots of delay_loop_ms(10); in their code ;-) or maybe all the supercharged cores are indeed just idling :)
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2013-11-02 23:23 <whitequark> wpwrak: android <4 used to not prioritize GUI like iphone did, hence it felt *much* more sluggish than iOS on slower hw
2013-11-02 23:23 <wpwrak> yes, agreed. efficient workflows. show me what i need, let me do what i want, and (often overlooked) let me undo my mistakes.
2013-11-02 23:23 <whitequark> android 4 fixed that, in 4.4 they did tons of changes to GC which should make it even better.
2013-11-02 23:24 <wpwrak> well, that sounds like inefficient toolkits or inefficient use of them
2013-11-02 23:24 <wpwrak> heh, that's what you get for using languages with GC ;-)
2013-11-02 23:24 <whitequark> remember that it was originally developed for keyboard interaction, not touchscreen
2013-11-02 23:24 <DocScrutinizer05> I think anything >>300dpi is nonsense
2013-11-02 23:25 <whitequark> and with keyboard you don't have to center all your flow around smooth drawing
2013-11-02 23:25 <wpwrak> in the old days, you probably wouldn't even have implemented free() or GC if you had had 1 GB of RAM, since you could never fill that anyway ;-)
2013-11-02 23:25 <whitequark> android predates touchcraze by several years
2013-11-02 23:25 <DocScrutinizer05> unless that's a headmounted display
2013-11-02 23:25 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: you're right, I got wrong numbers.
2013-11-02 23:25 <whitequark> retina is exactly 300dpi
2013-11-02 23:25 <whitequark> well, exactly 326. :)
2013-11-02 23:26 <whitequark> so my LG should be somewhat under that.
2013-11-02 23:26 <whitequark> (retina) as in iphone display.
2013-11-02 23:26 <wpwrak> openmoko had some 283 dpi. that was pretty crazy.
2013-11-02 23:26 <dos1> n900 is 267 dpi
2013-11-02 23:26 <wpwrak> more than enough :)
2013-11-02 23:27 <whitequark> dos1: so, about same. nice.
2013-11-02 23:27 <dos1> and openmoko devices came years before apple "retina" displays :)
2013-11-02 23:27 <whitequark> interesting
2013-11-02 23:27 <DocScrutinizer05> and HD is what? 1080 lines? per 2"? 1.5"? on a usual normal sized phone like jolla
2013-11-02 23:27 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: 720 usually
2013-11-02 23:28 <whitequark> 1080 could be on galaxy note, passionately called "the shovel" in russia
2013-11-02 23:28 <whitequark> (not joking)
2013-11-02 23:28 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer05: hmm, careful with "microSDHC". that name may be dangerous to use.
2013-11-02 23:28 <DocScrutinizer05> thanks
2013-11-02 23:28 <whitequark> dos1: ok, so you *do* send to russia with personal contact?
2013-11-02 23:29 <wpwrak> at least wolfgang mentioned that several times. (similar with MicroSD and such)
2013-11-02 23:30 <whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: btw, the fancy specs page mentions LTE as a given but goldelico one says 4G is optional
2013-11-02 23:30 <whitequark> which one is right?
2013-11-02 23:30 <DocScrutinizer05> see faq
2013-11-02 23:30 <whitequark> I see
2013-11-02 23:32 <dos1> whitequark: it might require some "workarounds", but I think there were already some successful goldelico buyers from Russia
2013-11-02 23:32 <whitequark> dos1: would you say be able to just use fedex?
2013-11-02 23:32 <whitequark> or dhl, *not* state postal service specifically
2013-11-02 23:33 <DocScrutinizer05> btw CBA to sign up to openphoenux ML to answer NeilBrown
2013-11-02 23:33 <whitequark> also, what would I need to select in the destination box at goldelico?
2013-11-02 23:34 <DocScrutinizer05> SIR should work without any initialization, OMAP3 UART3 supports it on hw level. So why shouldn't bootconsole on UART3 work via SIR?
2013-11-02 23:35 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer05: what you need is procmail. then you can subscribt to all the lists you might possibly be interested in and have the stuff just go to a folder you never have to look at unless something really matters to you
2013-11-02 23:35 <DocScrutinizer05> and worst case we use IR LED like a wire to thransmit raw unencoded 8N1, stopbit dark, startbit light
2013-11-02 23:36 <DocScrutinizer05> wpwrak: I can do that with my mail client as well
2013-11-02 23:36 <DocScrutinizer05> but still I need to register to the ML to answer
2013-11-02 23:37 <DocScrutinizer05> of course I could answer to the CC that got me this mail from NeilBrown, and it would reach him and Nikolaus to deal with the external post to ML. But... CBA
2013-11-02 23:39 <DocScrutinizer05> it happens that N900 maemo kernel bootconsole is already on UART3
2013-11-02 23:39 <wpwrak> you must have some horrible repressed childhood memories related to mailing lists :)