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2013-10-29 11:51 <whitequark> http://motorola-blog.blogspot.jp/2013/10/goodbye-sticky-hello-ara.html
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2013-10-29 12:21 <sanderr> That's cool! But how open is open?
2013-10-29 12:22 <whitequark> I was more thinking along the lines of phoneblocks
2013-10-29 12:22 <whitequark> which was the same thing but the consensus here was that it's dommed
2013-10-29 12:22 <whitequark> *doomed
2013-10-29 12:23 <whitequark> I'm still not convinced of technical feasibility but I wonder what is Motorola thinking
2013-10-29 12:25 <sanderr> I'm reading the phonebloks website.
2013-10-29 12:25 <sanderr> It's a reaction to the disposable world, and it emphasizes more on the sharing and app economy.
2013-10-29 12:26 <sanderr> But I like the idea.
2013-10-29 12:26 <sanderr> whitequark: I think Motorola wants to move into a niche market.
2013-10-29 12:32 <whitequark> sanderr: I'm not sure Motorola wants to do anything. it's just their R&D division.
2013-10-29 12:32 <whitequark> And I wonder how does that R&D division wants to solve stuff like mechanical wear, exceeding cost, slow interfaces, ...
2013-10-29 12:46 <sanderr> Cheap (and probably not fully standard) copy parts.
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2013-10-29 12:51 <wpwrak> so they now have invisible pink unicorns at the ivory tower ...
2013-10-29 12:52 <wpwrak> at least this speaks well of the financial situation of googlorolas blue sky research division. but they could try to be a bit more original. that ideas's been floated before, with very similar cad work.
2013-10-29 12:54 <wpwrak> or one could say "cgi" or "sfx" instead of "cad". makes it sound a bit less serious :)
2013-10-29 12:55 <sanderr> I like the way you put it. "googlorolas blue sky research division" :) But it's not very original. It's like Lego building blocks, but with a CAN (automotive) bus.
2013-10-29 12:55 <wpwrak> "After the trip, we asked ourselves. [...]" hmm yes, that seems to be a not so uncommon meme, too :)
2013-10-29 13:07 <wpwrak> such concepts have been proposed several times already. what they have in common is that they don't really make sense.
2013-10-29 13:08 <wpwrak> e.g., if your goal is upgradeability, then you'll find that, in, say, two years, you'll not only want a faster CPU (really ?), but also a new modem that supports a new band that's been added in your area
2013-10-29 13:10 <wpwrak> and when you touch the modem, you're in the middle of RF compatibility issues. so that's the least modular part of all.
2013-10-29 13:26 <sanderr> So all in all, the concept is perfect on paper, but useless in the physical world?
2013-10-29 13:28 <whitequark> yeah
2013-10-29 13:28 <larsc> I wouldn't call in perfect on paper
2013-10-29 13:28 <wpwrak> i'd say so, yes. better flexibilize the manufacturing process and move from mass production to build-to-order. then you can have modularity at a higher level.
2013-10-29 13:28 <wpwrak> heh ;-)
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2013-10-29 13:46 <wpwrak> let's say that it looks pretty on paper :)
2013-10-29 13:48 <whitequark> that's for sure
2013-10-29 14:07 <DocScrutinizer05> any network cracks around?
2013-10-29 14:07 <DocScrutinizer05> I'd need some help on debugging a weird behaviour on 3 of my WLAN devices
2013-10-29 14:08 <DocScrutinizer05> DNS resolving doesn't work enamore after several hours of device "idling"
2013-10-29 14:08 <DocScrutinizer05> anymore*
2013-10-29 14:09 <DocScrutinizer05> my network topology is a bit unusual: I got two NAT/routers between WLAN and the internet
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2013-10-29 14:09 <DocScrutinizer05> 2nd level router (the one giving DHCP leases) is set up to hand out sttaic public DNS server IPs
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2013-10-29 14:11 <DocScrutinizer05> /tmp/resolv.conf.wlan (dnsmasq specific way to handle DNS) has the correct public DNS server IPs on a device that refuses to ping ct.de
2013-10-29 14:11 <DocScrutinizer05> ("unkown addr")
2013-10-29 14:11 <DocScrutinizer05> disconecting/reconnecting WLAN fixes the issue for a day or so
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2013-10-29 14:14 <DocScrutinizer05> the PC - connected via cat5 - on same subnet never experiencing any such issue, I can't rule out it's due to PC never "idles"
2013-10-29 14:14 <sanderr> DocScrutinizer05: Does your wlan go into sleep mode?
2013-10-29 14:15 <DocScrutinizer05> err sleep mode? it does PSM yes
2013-10-29 14:15 <DocScrutinizer05> I never shut it down though
2013-10-29 14:16 <DocScrutinizer05> to me it actually seems like NAT sessions closing eventually
2013-10-29 14:17 <DocScrutinizer05> once device that is running IRC never goes offline for IRC, and never goes offline for ssh session. It however every now and then goes offline for SIP :-S .oO(???)
2013-10-29 14:18 <DocScrutinizer05> and moreoften than not I find an occasional web browser I open telling me "server not existing"
2013-10-29 14:19 <sanderr> Seems that it closes 'stale' network connections after a given time period.
2013-10-29 14:19 <DocScrutinizer05> when I do a ping ct.de then, it also fails. Then I unregister/reconnect WLAN and everything (browser, SIP, ping) works again
2013-10-29 14:19 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, but shouldn't the local dhcpcd or whatever open a new connection whenever needed?
2013-10-29 14:19 <sanderr> And if you keep pinging it in the background every 60 seconds? (as in, keep the connection open?)
2013-10-29 14:20 <sanderr> DocScrutinizer05: I guess it should.
2013-10-29 14:20 <DocScrutinizer05> route looked good
2013-10-29 14:21 <DocScrutinizer05> /tmp/resolv.conf.wlan looked good
2013-10-29 14:21 <DocScrutinizer05> ping 8.8.8.8 works
2013-10-29 14:21 <sanderr> but your network map is: inet --> router1 -(dhcp)-> router2 -(static)-> device
2013-10-29 14:21 <DocScrutinizer05> ping ct.de fails
2013-10-29 14:21 <sanderr> Can you still ping router2?
2013-10-29 14:21 <DocScrutinizer05> I even can ping the intarwebs
2013-10-29 14:21 <sanderr> You should first find out which connection is dropped, the dhcp-one or the static one.
2013-10-29 14:21 <DocScrutinizer05> it's strictly DNS that fails
2013-10-29 14:22 <sanderr> What dns servers are given out?
2013-10-29 14:22 <DocScrutinizer05> plus of course everything that depends on DNS
2013-10-29 14:22 <sanderr> you can set up 8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4 on the client systems as dns servers.
2013-10-29 14:22 <DocScrutinizer05> the statically configured ones
2013-10-29 14:23 <sanderr> It's a workaround, but might work.
2013-10-29 14:23 <DocScrutinizer05> I have statically configured DNS IP addr on router level2
2013-10-29 14:23 <DocScrutinizer05> I don't see the difference when I configure local DNS IP
2013-10-29 14:24 <DocScrutinizer05> the ones listed in /tmp/resolv.conf.wlan were exactly those I configured in rouer-l2
2013-10-29 14:24 <sanderr> And you could still ping those?
2013-10-29 14:24 <DocScrutinizer05> so it seems DHCP works, from device POV
2013-10-29 14:24 <sanderr> So there was a cutoff on port 53 (dns).
2013-10-29 14:24 <DocScrutinizer05> THAT is a good qustion :-)
2013-10-29 14:25 <DocScrutinizer05> I only pinged 8.78.8
2013-10-29 14:25 <DocScrutinizer05> 8.8.8.8
2013-10-29 14:25 <sanderr> that's the one I always ping too. :)
2013-10-29 14:25 <DocScrutinizer05> but not my DNS I'm using
2013-10-29 14:25 <sanderr> try that next time, and try to find out how far you can get locally
2013-10-29 14:26 <DocScrutinizer05> I wonder if friggin fritzbox (L1-router) is intercepting port53
2013-10-29 14:26 <sanderr> ewwww... a fritzbox
2013-10-29 14:26 <DocScrutinizer05> indeed
2013-10-29 14:26 <DocScrutinizer05> not my decicion, not my domain
2013-10-29 14:27 <DocScrutinizer05> I can configure it, but that's it
2013-10-29 14:27 <sanderr> are there by any chance sip-clients behind it?
2013-10-29 14:27 <DocScrutinizer05> I can't even install tellnet/ssh on it
2013-10-29 14:27 <DocScrutinizer05> sure, mine
2013-10-29 14:27 <DocScrutinizer05> 3 or 4 ;-)
2013-10-29 14:27 <DocScrutinizer05> (SIP clients)
2013-10-29 14:28 <sanderr> because what I know, fritzboxes prioritize their own (on the hardware) sip to be "more equal" than others (connecting through it)
2013-10-29 14:28 <DocScrutinizer05> and SIP pretty much acting up since that friggin fritzbox came into my path
2013-10-29 14:28 <sanderr> I know, they're a pain
2013-10-29 14:28 <DocScrutinizer05> 3210, no SIP but seems some ALG
2013-10-29 14:29 <DocScrutinizer05> I can't pinhole 5060 -> "internally used, sorry"
2013-10-29 14:29 <DocScrutinizer05> >:-(
2013-10-29 14:30 <DocScrutinizer05> but that's kinda plausible. What however is NOT is the DNS fsckup
2013-10-29 14:30 <DocScrutinizer05> it's goddamn annoying
2013-10-29 14:30 <sanderr> sorry that I can't help any further, but you need to investigate a bit more
2013-10-29 14:30 <DocScrutinizer05> and strange
2013-10-29 14:31 <DocScrutinizer05> thanks for the (basically obvious, but i missed it) hint to ping my actual DSN servers
2013-10-29 14:31 <sanderr> connect your level2 router with utp to the fritzbox?
2013-10-29 14:31 <DocScrutinizer05> DNS*
2013-10-29 14:31 <DocScrutinizer05> yep
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2013-10-29 14:32 <sanderr> well, fingers crossed!
2013-10-29 14:32 <DocScrutinizer05> (inernet)<-->FritzBox<-->LINKSYS<---(WLAN)
2013-10-29 14:32 <DocScrutinizer05> before there was no fritzbox in this picture, and everything fine
2013-10-29 14:33 <whitequark> http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/1pg3en/so_remember_how_we_all_had_a_good_laugh_at/cd21ouz
2013-10-29 14:34 <DocScrutinizer05> err what?
2013-10-29 14:34 <DocScrutinizer05> I miss the context there
2013-10-29 14:34 <DocScrutinizer05> seems like answers to an unknown OP
2013-10-29 14:36 <DocScrutinizer05> ohnoes, phonebloks again
2013-10-29 14:36 <DocScrutinizer05> bhone-blokes
2013-10-29 14:36 <sanderr> DocScrutinizer05: That's on Phonebloks and Motorola/Google going at it again.
2013-10-29 14:36 <DocScrutinizer05> fools
2013-10-29 14:36 <sanderr> We discussed that before the Fritzbox debacle. :s
2013-10-29 14:37 <DocScrutinizer05> seems an idea needs a certain minimum of *idiocy* to really kick of a hype
2013-10-29 14:37 <DocScrutinizer05> off, even
2013-10-29 14:40 <DocScrutinizer05> well, when they increase the size of phoens err phablets further at same rate, we soon will be able to use PCIe cards
2013-10-29 14:41 <DocScrutinizer05> THEN the whole modularity idea starts to become feasible, thoufg still nonsensical
2013-10-29 14:42 <DocScrutinizer05> after all, look what PCIe card you got in your current PC (if you're still using a PC and not a laptop already)
2013-10-29 14:43 <DocScrutinizer05> and particularly which cards are non-existent: decent coproc cards. RAM cards. Even decent GFX cards (need PCIe-x)
2013-10-29 14:45 <DocScrutinizer05> but hey, maybe they can use a backplane (thry call it 'base'?) full of USB3 hubs ;-P
2013-10-29 14:46 <whitequark> all your base are belong to us
2013-10-29 14:46 <DocScrutinizer05> speedevil had a nice characterization for the phonebloks idea
2013-10-29 14:46 <cde> whitequark: this joke expired 5 years ago
2013-10-29 14:49 <DocScrutinizer05> [2013-10-25 16:03:44] <SpeedEvil> My response in another place - http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.handhelds.openmoko.community/63678 This is basically at the level of a 5-year-old trying to design a car.
2013-10-29 14:49 <DocScrutinizer05> <SpeedEvil> 'Ok - it needs wheels and doors and a ball-pit'. Without the knowledge  of what the transmission or suspension is.'
2013-10-29 14:53 <DocScrutinizer05> >>Can it be done - sure!
2013-10-29 14:53 <DocScrutinizer05> Will it be twice the price, twice the weight, a quarter of the reliability - very likely.<<
2013-10-29 14:54 <DocScrutinizer05> I disagree. Very likely it won't fly at twice the size and price. I estimate at least 8 times the volume and 20 times the price
2013-10-29 14:57 <DocScrutinizer05> just like those jolla-TheOtherHalf freaks suggesting to implement dual-SIM by simply placing a complete 2nd phone into TOH
2013-10-29 14:58 <DocScrutinizer05> even if it could be done, you run into a hell of a RF-design nightmare, since two aerials won't work nice in such close neighbourhood to each other
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2013-10-29 15:34 <wpwrak> btw, for those not reading the list, here's a bit of y-box fun: schematics: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/ybox-20131025.pdf
2013-10-29 15:34 <wpwrak> and layout: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/ybox-20131025.png
2013-10-29 15:35 <wpwrak> (y-box is the critter that combines a powerless usb host with usb power from some pc/wallwart/etc. and lets some usb device (keyboard or similar) plug into all this.
2013-10-29 15:38 <DocScrutinizer05> those eagle schematics always are terribly ugly
2013-10-29 15:38 <DocScrutinizer05> or is this KiCAD even?
2013-10-29 15:39 <wpwrak> of course it's kicad
2013-10-29 15:39 <wpwrak> and what's ugly about it ?
2013-10-29 15:41 <DocScrutinizer05> dunno, the ground symbols, maybe the font, the colors, and particularly any wire ending in nirvana, with only a (electrically) irrelevant writing indicating what might be the deal with it
2013-10-29 15:42 <DocScrutinizer05> a wire from a grounf symnol to a box labeled [POWERD]
2013-10-29 15:42 <wpwrak> the latter is rather common if drawing the lines would be messy
2013-10-29 15:43 <DocScrutinizer05> not in any professional schematics I ever seen
2013-10-29 15:43 <wpwrak> well, POWERED is one of the less pleasant kicadisms, i agree. don't like it either, but it keeps the (otherwise useful) ERC complaints away.
2013-10-29 15:43 <DocScrutinizer05> also not in DIN schamics symbol definitions afaik
2013-10-29 15:44 <DocScrutinizer05> s/shamic/schematic
2013-10-29 15:45 <wpwrak> the POWERED ? i'd be surprised if it existed in any standard
2013-10-29 15:45 <DocScrutinizer05> no, wires ending in nirvana without *any* termination
2013-10-29 15:46 <DocScrutinizer05> a decent CAD wouldn't allow such stuff fist instance
2013-10-29 15:46 <wpwrak> naw, a real CAD checks what things you are trying to connect
2013-10-29 15:46 <DocScrutinizer05> you either use a bus symbol or an offsheet symbol to terminate the wire
2013-10-29 15:47 <DocScrutinizer05> offsheet symbols look like / similar to your [POWERED], and have to come in pairs
2013-10-29 15:48 <DocScrutinizer05> as they are virtual invisible wires
2013-10-29 15:48 <wpwrak> anyway, that's not the issue here. one thing that gives me a bit of a doubt is whether the micro-USB connectors should place the plug "up" or whether it doesn't really matter.
2013-10-29 15:49 <DocScrutinizer05> hm?
2013-10-29 15:49 <wpwrak> right now, i'm using non-reversed receptacles, which are intended for bottom-side mounting. since i use them on the top, the plug thus faces "downward"
2013-10-29 15:49 <DocScrutinizer05> ohwell
2013-10-29 15:49 <DocScrutinizer05> I dunno if anybody actually cares
2013-10-29 15:50 <wpwrak> the plug's overmold has a top and a bottom side. the top side may get a USB logo or at least "A" and "B". the bottom side may be blank or have a vendor logo.
2013-10-29 15:50 <wpwrak> yeah, that's my question :)
2013-10-29 15:50 <DocScrutinizer05> well, *I* know that
2013-10-29 15:50 <DocScrutinizer05> I dount anybody else does
2013-10-29 15:50 <DocScrutinizer05> and even I don't 'use' that knowledge
2013-10-29 15:51 <DocScrutinizer05> usually users do the try-and-error method on mating plugs
2013-10-29 15:51 <wpwrak> yeah, the procedure is pretty much: take plug, try to fumble it into the receptacle, if it fits, done, if it doesn't, reverse and repeat, if it still doesn't fit, have a closer look
2013-10-29 15:51 <wpwrak> indeed :)
2013-10-29 15:52 <wpwrak> it gets a bit nastier with AB receptacles because they accept the plug in either orientation and it's only the plastic and not the metal preventing it from entering the wrong way
2013-10-29 15:53 <DocScrutinizer05> I actually look at the *plug* of my usb charger before plugging it into the N900. But not at the symbols in plastic, but at the actual metal sleeve
2013-10-29 15:53 <wpwrak> that's not a problem in this circuit but the password safe itself has an AB receptacle
2013-10-29 15:54 <DocScrutinizer05> o/
2013-10-29 15:54 <wpwrak> (to make things more interesting, the china-made micro-B cable i tried to attach has plastic from the overmold spilled under one of the lock "tongues", so even if inserted correctly, it was almost impossible to push it in, let alone get it out again)
2013-10-29 15:54 <DocScrutinizer05> need to hurry
2013-10-29 15:56 <wpwrak> (short-term solution: cut off that "tongue". now it moves properly. long-term solution: accept the lesson that they still don't know how to make decent connectors in china)
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2013-10-29 16:04 * whitequark switches to the channel and reads "cut off that tongue"
2013-10-29 16:04 <whitequark> should I read backlog?..
2013-10-29 16:06 <wpwrak> it's a piece of metal in a connector :)
2013-10-29 16:06 <wpwrak> no preventive whistleblower treatment :)
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