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2013-10-19 21:29 <ysionneau> wpwrak: I'm not a really big fan of storing random numbers on the sdcard and using it as the *only* source
2013-10-19 21:30 <ysionneau> what happens if someone breaks the random number file? does the device stop working?
2013-10-19 21:30 <ysionneau> refuses to do anything until the random number file is recovered?
2013-10-19 21:31 <ysionneau> mixing bits from hw RNG and from sdcard could be a good idea
2013-10-19 21:31 <ysionneau> if sdcard random file is corrupted, then use hw RNG only
2013-10-19 21:31 <ysionneau> another 3rd source of entropy could be nice :)
2013-10-19 21:33 <ysionneau> gn8!
2013-10-19 21:37 <wpwrak> ysionneau: yes, in a "file only" scenario, if you lose the random number source, the device couldn't perform any operations that need random numbers. it could still access existing content, though
2013-10-19 21:38 <wpwrak> in a mixing scenario, you may or may not care if additional sources are available. depends on how much you trust the hw rng.
2013-10-19 21:40 <wpwrak> and yes, a 3rd source would be nice :) but they're difficult to find. e.g., my workstation produces a mere ~3 kbits per second (/dev/random), all that by "entropy harvesting"
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2013-10-19 22:29 <wpwrak> i think there should be a ban on perverts writing data sheets ...
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2013-10-19 22:49 <wpwrak> the kl25 clock generation (not speaking of clock distribution/dividers/gating yet) at reset alone involves four fields in three different registers. of course, there's nothing that simply says what result you'll get. and the default is a fairly odd value (~20.971 MHz)
2013-10-19 22:51 <eintopf> the sd card file solution is some static entropy source
2013-10-19 22:51 <eintopf> put some sensors on it and mix the data
2013-10-19 22:52 <wpwrak> hmm, you're not subscribed to the qi-hw list, are you ?
2013-10-19 22:52 <wpwrak> there's quite a bit of context: http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2013-October/010335.html
2013-10-19 22:53 <wpwrak> and yes, mixing is part of the plan :)
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2013-10-19 22:58 <eintopf> wpwrak: okay, but I think I am not a big help with these crazy random number generators
2013-10-19 23:00 <wpwrak> heh, they're fun ;-) something whose principal characteristic is that it has no characteristics
2013-10-19 23:03 <eintopf> wpwrak: I take a cryptology course this semester
2013-10-19 23:03 <eintopf> so maybe I can help you with anelok ;)
2013-10-19 23:04 <wpwrak> it may be a good opportunity to apply the theory on a real problem
2013-10-19 23:05 <eintopf> yea and we will talk about "good" prngs
2013-10-19 23:05 <wpwrak> hmm .. what's good about having a lot of wind is that the temperature is fairly nice. what's not so good it that it does a bit of a poltergeist impersonation with all the papers on my desk :(
2013-10-19 23:08 <eintopf> which temperature?
2013-10-19 23:08 <eintopf> room temperature? :S
2013-10-19 23:08 <wpwrak> about 25 C, still fairly cool
2013-10-19 23:11 <eintopf> too hot
2013-10-19 23:13 <eintopf> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mersenne_twister
2013-10-19 23:13 <eintopf> you need something like this
2013-10-19 23:13 <eintopf> don't know if your mcu can handle it :)
2013-10-19 23:14 <eintopf> writing a bignum lib ;)
2013-10-19 23:15 <wpwrak> hot ? buenos aires gets up to about 40 C, sometimes a little more, depending on the station
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2013-10-19 23:16 <wpwrak> "The algorithm in its native form is not suitable for cryptography" :)
2013-10-19 23:18 <wpwrak> and i don't want to use a PRNG. we have a fast enough hw RNG. all it needs are 1) simple statistical tests (to make sure it works), and 2) an entropy pool to blur any bias
2013-10-19 23:19 <eintopf> oh
2013-10-19 23:21 <eintopf> you need "Die Hard" for 1) http://www.stat.fsu.edu/pub/diehard/
2013-10-19 23:21 <eintopf> or
2013-10-19 23:23 <eintopf> http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/ST/toolkit/rng/documentation_software.html
2013-10-19 23:23 <eintopf> this test suite
2013-10-19 23:23 <eintopf> don't know :-)
2013-10-19 23:23 <eintopf> but for 1) you need a working 2)
2013-10-19 23:24 <wpwrak> i think i'll try dieharder. that's even in debian. couldn't get easier :)
2013-10-19 23:24 <eintopf> yea I saw dieharder, too
2013-10-19 23:24 <wpwrak> no, the RNG itself should pass statistical tests. the pool is just make sure nothing happens the tests didn't catch.
2013-10-19 23:25 <eintopf> you mean only the hw rng?
2013-10-19 23:25 <eintopf> but the hw rng is maybe hacked from nsa
2013-10-19 23:27 <wpwrak> also, there are two types of tests: 1) lab tests (dieharder and such). they're extensive and resource-hungry. their purpose is to make sure the RNG design is correct. 2) run-time tests. their purpose is to make sure the RNG works right now. they can't find any of the subtle flaws the lab tests should reveal. but they can stop the device from using a RNG that is suffering a dramatic hardware flaw.
2013-10-19 23:27 <wpwrak> the lab tests are there to try to find any NSA "contributions"
2013-10-19 23:28 <wpwrak> the entropy pool messes things up a little more, to make it hard to exploit anything the lab tests didn't find
2013-10-19 23:28 <eintopf> and 1) is for low battery tests?
2013-10-19 23:28 <wpwrak> and if we have an "entropy assist" (the external file, which is basically an OTP), that can obscure things further
2013-10-19 23:29 <wpwrak> 1) is just the RNG. might try with different voltages, though that shouldn't matter much since the RF chips works at 1.8 V anyway, which is even below the minimum voltage the rest of the circuit is designed for (2.0 V)
2013-10-19 23:30 <eintopf> ah
2013-10-19 23:30 <eintopf> ok
2013-10-19 23:30 <eintopf> rf chips, then you can use the rssi for entropy ;)
2013-10-19 23:30 <wpwrak> well, i think it does something like this
2013-10-19 23:31 <eintopf> ah
2013-10-19 23:31 <wpwrak> i.e., you have to turn on the receiver for the RNG to work
2013-10-19 23:31 <eintopf> the mcu with hw rng has the rf chip?
2013-10-19 23:31 <wpwrak> no, the RF chip (with RNG) is a separate item
2013-10-19 23:31 <eintopf> ah ok
2013-10-19 23:31 <wpwrak> it's an Atmel AT86RF232
2013-10-19 23:31 <eintopf> cool
2013-10-19 23:32 <eintopf> oh i know the at86rf230 :P
2013-10-19 23:32 <wpwrak> unfortunately, the MCU doesn't have an RNG. it's love to have one there, too.
2013-10-19 23:32 <wpwrak> actually, you know the 231 ;-)
2013-10-19 23:32 <eintopf> :o
2013-10-19 23:32 <eintopf> but the 231 has no rng?
2013-10-19 23:32 <wpwrak> 231/2/3 are very similar
2013-10-19 23:32 <wpwrak> the 231 has one too
2013-10-19 23:33 <eintopf> oh cool, didn't notice this
2013-10-19 23:33 <wpwrak> the 232 is cheaper than the 231, that's why i'm using it here. it lacks a few features we don't need anyway, e.g., some non-standard speeds and some RF front-end options
2013-10-19 23:33 <eintopf> so I can turn the atusb stick to an cryptostick
2013-10-19 23:34 <wpwrak> yeah, you could. i may actually use atusb as rf dongle for anelok
2013-10-19 23:34 <eintopf> s/to/into/
2013-10-19 23:34 <qi-bot> eintopf meant: "so I can turn the atusb stick into an crypintostick"
2013-10-19 23:34 <eintopf> qi-bot: thanks
2013-10-19 23:34 <wpwrak> heh ;-)
2013-10-19 23:34 <eintopf> you have an usb host on anelok?
2013-10-19 23:35 <eintopf> so you use 2.0 V
2013-10-19 23:35 <wpwrak> kinda. yes. it'll need an external (passive) adapter
2013-10-19 23:35 <eintopf> so I would say no :)
2013-10-19 23:35 <eintopf> oh
2013-10-19 23:36 <wpwrak> anelok has USB OTG but doesn't provide USB power. that would be a bit too hard on the poor little coin cell
2013-10-19 23:36 <eintopf> yea
2013-10-19 23:36 <eintopf> but maybe you can charge the anelok over usb
2013-10-19 23:36 <eintopf> that would be nice
2013-10-19 23:37 <eintopf> there exists some rechargeable little coin cells?
2013-10-19 23:38 <eintopf> oh yes :)
2013-10-19 23:39 <wpwrak> train arriving in buenos aires: http://www.infobae.com/2013/10/19/1517401-exclusivo-asi-fue-el-choque-once
2013-10-19 23:39 <wpwrak> the fun part is around 0:30. that was about 13 hours ago, a few blocks from where i live.
2013-10-19 23:39 <eintopf> I remember my old grandpa which have some injections with many of little coin cells
2013-10-19 23:40 <eintopf> don't know what he doing with the coin cells there
2013-10-19 23:40 <wpwrak> (charge) naw, no rechargeable battery. they're just a mess and don't make sense for such a device.
2013-10-19 23:40 <wpwrak> coin cell injections ? is your grandfather an android ? :)
2013-10-19 23:40 <eintopf> no
2013-10-19 23:40 <eintopf> he put coin cells in a injection
2013-10-19 23:41 <eintopf> and put some wire on it
2013-10-19 23:41 <eintopf> :D
2013-10-19 23:42 <wpwrak> hm, sounds weird :)
2013-10-19 23:42 <eintopf> wpwrak: the train didn't stop :/
2013-10-19 23:44 <wpwrak> well, eventually it did ... only some 80 wounded, no dead
2013-10-19 23:44 <wpwrak> less than two years, a similar accident at exactly the same place cost more than 50 lives
2013-10-19 23:44 <eintopf> :(
2013-10-19 23:44 <wpwrak> s/years/years ago/
2013-10-19 23:44 <qi-bot> wpwrak meant: "less than two years ago, a similar accident at exactly the same place cost more than 50 lives"
2013-10-19 23:44 <eintopf> you should not drive with the train
2013-10-19 23:45 <eintopf> but back to anelok, so the anelok has the at86rf232 so it could run 6lowpan on it ;)
2013-10-19 23:46 <wpwrak> back then, the buffers (prellbock) didn't move at all (because of catastrophically incorrect maintenance), so the train basically smashed into an unmovable obstacle
2013-10-19 23:46 <eintopf> ah, I know what you mean
2013-10-19 23:46 <wpwrak> this time, the buffers visibly did yield. alas. they didn't quite stop the train either. maybe they'll get it right the third time ...
2013-10-19 23:46 <wpwrak> and no, i don't take trains around here :)
2013-10-19 23:47 <eintopf> maybe they have a poor real time os
2013-10-19 23:48 <eintopf> :/
2013-10-19 23:48 <wpwrak> well, one thing they don't have are any safety mechanisms. those trains can ignore stop signals all day long and nothing happens.
2013-10-19 23:49 <wpwrak> they also derail on at least a weekly basis
2013-10-19 23:49 <eintopf> :o
2013-10-19 23:50 <eintopf> ok, when you take a train... you need to seat in the middle
2013-10-19 23:50 <wpwrak> oh course, they go only very very slowly (i think never more than 60 km/h), so most derailments are harmless. except for the service interruption, of course.
2013-10-19 23:51 <wpwrak> naw, if i ever take such a train, i need a shrink. urgently ;-)
2013-10-19 23:52 <eintopf> wpwrak: so I can download your cad files for anelok, look for your hardware components and I can try to build a own?
2013-10-19 23:53 <wpwrak> sure. it's all there
2013-10-19 23:53 <wpwrak> and the pcb is actually DIY-friendly :)
2013-10-19 23:53 <eintopf> what's a pcb? :(
2013-10-19 23:54 <eintopf> printed circuit board
2013-10-19 23:54 <eintopf> ah
2013-10-19 23:54 <eintopf> your wires are too small
2013-10-19 23:55 <eintopf> you weld lines which a wide of my hair
2013-10-19 23:58 <wpwrak> hmm, if you have very thick hair, you're close. traces are about 0.2 mm / 8 mil.
2013-10-19 23:59 <wpwrak> but the soldering isn't excessively difficult
2013-10-19 23:59 <eintopf> yea you gave me your led toy document