2013-10-14 00:00 yeah, it got a bit longer than i thought 2013-10-14 00:00 already split off the mechanical part. that's for a later post then. gotta stretch the news :) 2013-10-14 00:04 so what do you want me to do? 2013-10-14 00:04 naw, just keeping you in the loop, in case you're interested 2013-10-14 00:04 sure I'm interested 2013-10-14 00:04 interested to help :-) 2013-10-14 00:05 kewl :) so far, things seem under control. no weird surprises. well, nothing excessively weird :) 2013-10-14 00:07 I for sure won't need such a password vault, but I could figure using one and what I would want it to work like and look like when I would do 2013-10-14 00:07 ah, so you have good memory :) 2013-10-14 00:08 e.g. ideal size in my vision is credit card, but 2mm high 2013-10-14 00:08 nah, I have very few RL occasions where password is needed 2013-10-14 00:09 maybe only 10 or 15, and those few PWs I can memorize 2013-10-14 00:09 credit card gets tricky when you want to have USB and such :) 2013-10-14 00:09 yep, of course 2013-10-14 00:09 phew. 10-15 ... good memory :) 2013-10-14 00:10 I don't consider that a usecase, since I only use my own PC and on that I got a sw vault 2013-10-14 00:10 but I see the usecase, though I haven'z completely groked it how it works 2013-10-14 00:11 I'm missing the user manual describing how to use that thingie 2013-10-14 00:11 prlly I missed to read some ML threads 2013-10-14 00:12 kristianpaul has quit [Quit: leaving] 2013-10-14 00:14 oh, you basically "dial" a PIN to unlock the device. then it shows you what "accounts" you have (account = short name plus additional data). dial the account, then press the button to show it. there, you see things like username and password. that's the basic operation. 2013-10-14 00:14 generally I think the thing is missing some input interface(s), like optical to read barcodes (OCR? :-o) form PC screen, and a way to place it between kbd and PC like a keylogger to do exactly that: log keystrokes when you enter credentials 2013-10-14 00:14 then you enter your login information into whatever (browser, atm, secure door lock, ...) 2013-10-14 00:15 yes, that's a more sophisticated use model. hence USB and RF ;-) 2013-10-14 00:15 if you have a "keyboard out" interface, you can let the pw safe "type" things for you 2013-10-14 00:16 yes, but how to train/teach/configure them? 2013-10-14 00:16 you can also use it as keyboard pass-through, also to make it easier to edit things in the pw safe. (the wheel should be nice for selection and reading, but not so great for writing a lot) 2013-10-14 00:17 that's my point 2013-10-14 00:17 oh, you could "dial" things. or type them in via an external USB keyboard. or let the PC send them over USB. or have some external entity provide the account records on the memory card. 2013-10-14 00:17 how would that kbd pass-thru work? 2013-10-14 00:17 so there are a number of possibilities 2013-10-14 00:18 ideally the thing had a usb-f and usb-m 2013-10-14 00:18 plug keyboard into USB, put USB dongle into PC, type on kbd. when you want the kbd to be "intercepted" by the pw safe, you'd tell it (via the wheel or maybe some hotkey) 2013-10-14 00:19 using RF for one of the links always gets you into pwersupply hassle 2013-10-14 00:19 yeah, i had that in the original design. gets a bit bulky, though. so now i'm down from USB A + USB B to USB AB 2013-10-14 00:20 naw, we'd be externally powered in this case 2013-10-14 00:20 HEY, use one of those crappy "augmented" USB plugs, that comes with 10pin and could go to a Y-cable that gives you A and B mode concurrently? 2013-10-14 00:21 well, it's called a y-box .. :) 2013-10-14 00:21 while still keeping A and B compatibility for "normal" USB plugs 2013-10-14 00:21 http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/pwsafe/ybox.pdf 2013-10-14 00:21 mhm 2013-10-14 00:22 not the most elegant solution but something that can be made without too much hassle 2013-10-14 00:22 mini(micro)-AB-extended-USB receptacle, OTG on the normal 5 pins, plus a discrete host on the extended 5 pins 2013-10-14 00:24 naw, no bastard connectors :) 2013-10-14 00:24 even smarter than my original idea to have discrete usb-A and usb-B in device, since you can unplug with only one plug. And when you use such a "box" you could evel place a (electronic?) switch into the box to bridge input and output when the keylogger is unplugged 2013-10-14 00:25 s/evel/even/ 2013-10-14 00:25 DocScrutinizer05 meant: "even smarter than my original idea to have discrete usb-A and usb-B in device, since you can unplug with only one plug. And when you use such a "box" you could even place a (electronic?) switch into the box to bridge input and output when the keylogger is unplugged" 2013-10-14 00:25 a more common use case would be simply editing records on the PC and sending them to the safe. if your PC has the same "security classification" as the data it's processing, there's no loss of security. 2013-10-14 00:27 i.e., if on a PC you use for the web and you just created a lolcats.com account, you'd create the account entry there, encrypt it, encrypt the key with the safe's public key and send it to the safe. the safe would then just add it to the database 2013-10-14 00:27 let's think about e.g. my online bank account. When dongle in keylogger mode, it could detect my typing in my account number and then and thus the dongle knows it now needs to provide the online banking password 2013-10-14 00:27 i see the box mainly as wiring. plus a lone power LED :) 2013-10-14 00:29 that could get dangerous. i'm more thinking of the browser on the PC telling the safe (via HID) that it now needs to log into X, and then the safe looks this up 2013-10-14 00:33 hmm, not dongerous when you need to confirm release/injection of the password 2013-10-14 00:33 btw HID, yes exactly, RF should be BT 2013-10-14 00:34 BT HID 2013-10-14 00:34 well, 802.15.4 HID :) 2013-10-14 00:34 BT is tricky 2013-10-14 00:38 BT is common 2013-10-14 00:38 and encrypted ;-) 2013-10-14 00:38 and has drivers for HID on every PC 2013-10-14 00:39 yes, BT would be very nice to have 2013-10-14 00:39 now, do you know a small low-cost BT module with full documentation, available in small quantities, with SPI or similar ? 2013-10-14 00:40 there should be a few of them 2013-10-14 00:41 http://www.roundsolutions.com/shop/en/Modules-and-accessories/Bluetooth-Module 2013-10-14 00:46 their cheapest module is EUR 18 @ 10 units. and there's no technical info about it. 2013-10-14 00:46 ah, there's one at 16.60. that's better. 2013-10-14 00:47 again, no technical info 2013-10-14 00:48 probably fairly large, all of them 2013-10-14 00:49 yeah, I also wondered why they are so large 2013-10-14 00:49 they have one small one. no price info. also, i'm not sure if the technical info really is enough to talk to it. beyond serial, i mean. 2013-10-14 00:50 seems they often disclose the tech specs under "NDA" only 2013-10-14 00:50 :-/ 2013-10-14 00:51 e.g. for the Option GW601 GSM module 2013-10-14 00:51 known old annoying issue with all that stuff, with basically all manufs 2013-10-14 00:53 It seems to me like WLAN+BT modules are generally smaller than the BT-only ones .oO(???) 2013-10-14 00:55 * DocScrutinizer05 looks at an arbitrary BT dongle, then recalls the BT-microdongles that hardly are noticeable when plugged into a USB-A receptacle since they and flush with the USB device's case 2013-10-14 00:55 yes, NDA is one of my main reasons for staying away from BT. it's simply not compatible with the concept of open hardware. 2013-10-14 00:55 sure, USB, bit hey... 2013-10-14 00:55 but* 2013-10-14 00:56 wpwrak: it's always a question of disclosing the "ABI", you never get "full" specs since those even would need to consist of chip masks and litho process parameters etc 2013-10-14 00:58 when you get enough of the interface specs and are allowed to quote them, you should be fine no matter what's the blackbox you're using - a FET, a LSI-chip, a module... 2013-10-14 00:59 yes, but the NDA barrier is usually very low. basically anything you need to make it work or to understand how it's integrated is under NDA. 2013-10-14 01:00 that just doesn't work with open hardware 2013-10-14 01:02 well, for some modules I know it seems you can use the NDAed docs to create your own "datasheet" that you're free to publish all the way you like 2013-10-14 01:04 you mean china-style ? www.china-shop.com/docs/foo-ds.pdf, for everyone to download, but with a big fast red CONFIDENTIAL on every page ? :) 2013-10-14 01:05 rozzin has left #qi-hardware [#qi-hardware] 2013-10-14 01:06 for my personal "ethics model" the blackbox (and in the end you always and on blackboxes when you go "down" further and further) is sufficiently open when the specs and docs you the customer get with them (in this case it would be up to _you_ to provide those for your customers, prepared from your knowledge you got from the NDAed original datasheets) is specific enough to possobly replace the blackbox by something different 2013-10-14 01:07 no, I mean in the way OM did (or planned to do) with glamo 2013-10-14 01:08 phew. what was planned with the glamo is a LOT of work. 2013-10-14 01:08 also, don't forget the cost of negotiating such a deal 2013-10-14 01:08 yes, for glame that's true. For a BT module it can't be that hard 2013-10-14 01:08 completely inaccessible for a project without deep pockets 2013-10-14 01:08 glamo* 2013-10-14 01:09 g-lame-o :) 2013-10-14 01:09 basically, as long as there's a FOSS driver for a module, I think it's not nice but "open enough" 2013-10-14 01:10 sure you also need the electrical specs of the interface, and the mechanical and thermical specs 2013-10-14 01:11 my guidline is: could I replace it by another component, for repair or modding the device whatever 2013-10-14 01:12 in this case, you also want to know a bit more about it. after all, this is a sensitive usage scenario 2013-10-14 01:12 let's think of an ASIC. I don't need to know the chip design nor the verilog source, as long as the circuit datasheets are sufficient so I could design a replacement whenever the chip goes south 2013-10-14 01:13 incoming 2013-10-14 01:14 yeah, sure for this special case you might want to know more about the BT internals. But I doubt you get to know sufficient internals to properly evaluate *any* hw on THAT level 2013-10-14 01:14 [commit] Werner Almesberger: poly2d/: add triangulation (untested) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/f93e93c 2013-10-14 01:14 [commit] Werner Almesberger: poly2d/f2d_tri_holes.cpp (tri_holes_append): rename to f2d_tri_holes_append (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/3d8a8d0 2013-10-14 01:14 [commit] Werner Almesberger: poly2d/p2d_hsort.c (p2d_hier_free): make freeing of polygons optional (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/d758359 2013-10-14 01:14 [commit] Werner Almesberger: poly2d/f2d_tri_holes.cpp (find_point): don't loop forever on closed polygons (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/d0b5696 2013-10-14 01:14 [commit] Werner Almesberger: poly2d/f2d_tri.c (f2d_free_all): free list of faces (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/ca271dd 2013-10-14 01:14 [commit] Werner Almesberger: cameo/: add "stl" command to generate STL slices (WIP) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/cae-tools/8b6e416 2013-10-14 01:15 well, at least i'm at the chip level with 802.15.4. that's better than BT at the module level. there's a lot of information lost between chip and module. 2013-10-14 01:15 the risk and threat evaluation needs to base on more general considerations (like RF power and range) and some assumptions form common knowledge about how BT works in general 2013-10-14 01:15 naw, while i'd be more than happy to use a nice BT solution, that simply doesn't seem to be possible for now 2013-10-14 01:16 ieee 802.15.4, on the other hand, is possible, and i can reuse a lot of elements from a proven design 2013-10-14 01:16 *shrug* 2013-10-14 01:16 even better, i can do ieee 802.15.4 at the chip level, not having to work with bulky modules 2013-10-14 01:17 i'd just keep BT for later. it's too tall a wall to climb now. 2013-10-14 01:18 I don't see the usecase for that 802.15.4 stuff 2013-10-14 01:19 you'd be honestly better off by providing a second wired interface in the volume you waste on that 2013-10-14 01:19 2nd wired interface needs a different MCU that takes up a lot more space 2013-10-14 01:20 (and has other inconvenient differences in the feature set) 2013-10-14 01:20 well, some of them are inconvenient. others would be very nice to have. 2013-10-14 01:21 panda|x201 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-14 01:21 again, something that may be worth considering later, for a number of reasons. but let's keep things simple for now. 2013-10-14 01:23 I just fail to see the usecase for 6LowPAN 2013-10-14 01:23 it's basically a poor cable replacement 2013-10-14 01:25 and benefit from using it in this design is similar to the benefit of WLAN on a miditower PC 2013-10-14 01:25 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-10-14 01:29 there are tons of mice and keyboard with proprietary RF. few enough people seem to mind. so just forget that it's 802.15.4 and think of it as "SuperSecureLink+++" or whatever ;-) 2013-10-14 01:30 all those mice and kbd are for stationary use without annoying cable 2013-10-14 01:31 so, mobile use without annoying cable. a small enough difference :) 2013-10-14 01:31 and they all have more or less severe problems with power supply resp batteries 2013-10-14 01:32 dunno. some seem pretty decent. in any case, this one will have a very low duty cycle. 2013-10-14 01:32 and in your case there is even more trouble with power supply than in any mouse or kbd, since you worst case need to power those from your device 2013-10-14 01:33 honestly a USB host on a device with a CR2032 is a bad idea 2013-10-14 01:34 you need to "borrow" that host - incl the power it provides - from somewhere else 2013-10-14 01:35 if you want usb host, you need the y-box and an external supply 2013-10-14 01:35 forwarding it may be feasible, but providing a USB to plug in a kbd on a device that has CR2032 is a nogo 2013-10-14 01:35 there's no USB power supply. and yes, the math is easy enough ;-) 2013-10-14 01:35 that kinda defeats mobile use pretty much 2013-10-14 01:36 well, it's a fairly exotic scenario anyway. 2013-10-14 01:36 I still miss the user manual that explains to me how to use this device in daily life 2013-10-14 01:36 with proper browser plugins, hardly anyone should want that mode 2013-10-14 01:37 browser plugins? 2013-10-14 01:37 where the heck I get those from, in an internet cafe? 2013-10-14 01:38 if you really wish to manage your pws from a pc in an internet cafe ... 2013-10-14 01:40 yes, that's the only usecase I can think of. I'm in holiday and want to access all the fora and maybe even register with new ones. Access my bank account, my email web frontend (no way to add browser plugins for that either) etc 2013-10-14 01:40 another usecase I can think of is at ATM 2013-10-14 01:40 but you don't need them for that 2013-10-14 01:40 to find out about my PIN 2013-10-14 01:40 yes, of course 2013-10-14 01:41 but for that the baic device is suficient 2013-10-14 01:41 sure 2013-10-14 01:42 like I already said, I don't basically need an external device at home for my own PC. There I got a sw solution that's working nicely 2013-10-14 01:45 so unless I can read the user manual that gives me an idea about the usecases this device is intended for and how those are working, I probably can't contribute anything useful on the general design / productspec / usability level 2013-10-14 01:45 no offense intended 2013-10-14 01:46 I razther guess I'm simply too poorly informed thanks to myself not reading all the existing info about it 2013-10-14 01:46 so my fault 2013-10-14 02:01 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-14 02:07 yeah, this sort of information is widely scattered for now. and a good part of it is just in my head :) 2013-10-14 02:07 I see 4 operation modes that make sense to me: (a: administrative) a1: attached to a PC via USB as peripheral like e.g mass storage, so user can edit stuff. a2: same as a1 but via wireless, nice for frequent low-effort automated sync e.g. to a software pw vault on personal workstation. (b: supportive) b1: same hw setup as a1 but acting as USB kbd "injecting passwords, works on virtually every PC. b2: same as a2 and b1, via 2013-10-14 02:07 wireless (works only on PC that have a special driver installed for 6LowPAN HID, so this doesn't "make sense") b3: manual lookup of passwords using the device's MMI (scrollwheel, display) 2013-10-14 02:07 but it'll be easier to show things once the basic hardware works. and this should be relatively soon, if things progress as smoothly at they did so far 2013-10-14 02:09 the 802.15.4 dongle would just present itself as HID device. you can do quite a lot with that already. 2013-10-14 02:09 basically USB (cable) and 802.15.4 dongle would provide the same functionality towards the host 2013-10-14 02:10 then that's just fine 2013-10-14 02:11 an external keyboard may be less useful with anelok in the middle but just for massive standalone editing. e.g., if you need to enter a lot of accounts and you don't have any pc you trust for that nearby. 2013-10-14 02:11 so it's a fairly narrowly limited scenario, too 2013-10-14 02:11 basically an non-existent scenario 2013-10-14 02:11 for most uses, you'd just use HID. not quite sure how hard/easy browser integration for the fancier items would be, though 2013-10-14 02:12 naw, not non-existent. depends on how you work. 2013-10-14 02:14 an important concept is also that you can compartmentalize things. so your could manage things it has access to anyway, while it wouldn't be allowed to touch other things. 2013-10-14 02:14 still need to flesh out the details, though. plenty of crypto fun in this :) 2013-10-14 02:15 "your" = your PC 2013-10-14 02:16 ? 2013-10-14 02:23 what i mean is that you don't have to give every system that wants to maintain items in the pw database access to everything 2013-10-14 02:25 I figure a scenario that I'd consider highly desirable and useful: you type e.g. "/msg nickserv identify". The moment you type the "y" of identify, on the screen appears "/msg nickserv identify 04<>01" and you hear a beep from the keylogger ANELOK in the cable from kbd to PC. For security sake you won't be allowed to enter master password to unlock ANELOK via 104-kbd, you need to use the ANELOK directly to 2013-10-14 02:25 unlock. So if you hadn't yet for this session, you unlock ANELOK and then type "y" on 104-kbd which results in replacing <> (via BS) by the real password 2013-10-14 02:30 heh, could be fun :) with the currently planned feature set, you could certainly experiment with such things 2013-10-14 02:30 wej_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-14 02:32 if you're running just a HID, you probably wouldn't want to have that <> show up. but anelok could then simply suppress further keystrokes until you answer whether you want to send a pw or not (with a timeout, in case it misfired badly and you're confused) 2013-10-14 02:33 absolutely same applies e.g for my online banking, where the trigger regex would be my account number followed by 2013-10-14 02:33 if you have more than bare HID, e.g., some plugin, the IRC client could ask directly 2013-10-14 02:34 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-10-14 02:34 of course the reaction and notification must be configurable for each single regex trigger 2013-10-14 02:34 yes, you could apply this to a number of scenarios. it would basically compete with plugins. the latter would be cleaner but also harder to do. 2013-10-14 02:35 since e.g for online banking the next thing after account number would be the 5digit PIN, evidently not enough for a lengthy message 2013-10-14 02:35 kristianpaul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-14 02:37 I'm searching for hw- as well as sw-solutions doing basically exactly this, since ages. Basically a kbd-macro driver/dongle, just I didn't think of a master password yet 2013-10-14 02:38 and while similar things already exist for windows on a sw kbd driver level, on linux the whole input stack is such a PITA that I gave up on finding as well as DIY coding such a thing 2013-10-14 02:39 a dongle to plug between kbd usb and PC usb would be a dream 2013-10-14 02:39 even more when it comes with own MMI 2013-10-14 02:45 plugin for IRC client? 2013-10-14 02:45 I prefer the hardware approach here 2013-10-14 02:46 more universal, more "clean" (I differ here), and portable 2013-10-14 02:47 even platform independent, as long as it's a USB kbd 2013-10-14 02:50 panda|x201 has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-10-14 03:16 related: http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/ae83/ 2013-10-14 03:20 well, as i said, with the current design, you'll be able to have USB host and HID-over-RF. so you can have that sort of communication path, with whatever intercept you want to place there 2013-10-14 03:22 going all wired would be considerably more difficult. you'd either need two MCUs, each providing one USB, or one of the MCUs that already come with two. in the latter category would be the STM32F2 (and the STM32F4, and that's about it), which i happen to know quite well. 2013-10-14 03:22 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-14 03:22 compared to KL25, they 1) draw more power, 2) come either in BGA or much larger packages, and 3) lack built-in USB power management. on the upside, they have 2013-10-14 03:23 1) two OTG ports, 2) a hardware RNG (to complement the one in the RF transceiver), 3) more processing power. 2013-10-14 03:24 i'd like to look into using these chips in the future, but they're a considerably more expensive choice, not only in terms of chip cost but also in terms of design complexity 2013-10-14 03:26 (phantom keystroker) yeah, you can of course use anelok like this, too: go your login screen, move to the user/account/whatever field, unlock anelok and select the account entry, then let anelok "type" the account info. repeat for the password. 2013-10-14 03:27 that's an open loop scenario: anelok doesn't get any feedback from the PC. but it's not necessarily weaker than what you're describing. 2013-10-14 03:28 a closed loop would be better, of course. e.g., the browser specifically asking for login data and anelok providing it in a way that doesn't depend on the input focus and all these little details. 2013-10-14 03:36 I can't see this type of browser plugin go anywhere. Nobody has implemented such thing yet, and I guess it's terribly hard to implement something that goes seamlessly with random websites 2013-10-14 03:37 not to think about random other browsers, PCs in cafes etc, and even OS 2013-10-14 03:37 IOW when you already got a sw solution to deal with your passwords, so why do you need a hw dongle to complement this? 2013-10-14 03:38 sw solution == the plugins needed 2013-10-14 03:38 could as well use arbitrary existing SSO solutions 2013-10-14 03:39 security audit a nightmare either way 2013-10-14 03:39 another nice related site: http://www.irongeek.com/i.php?page=security/usb-hardware-keyloggers-1-keycarbon 2013-10-14 03:42 btw thanks for pushing me on all that, it gave me an idea for a nice new app on N900 2013-10-14 03:44 (difficulty) dunno. this guy seems fairly confident about the browser integration: http://ob-security.info/?p=631 2013-10-14 03:44 hehe :) 2013-10-14 03:44 N900 comes with: USB (both device and hostmode); drivers for HID (bluemaemo); hw KBD; touchscreen you can use as mouse replacement; BT to attach BT kbd and mouse while N900 is attached to PC emulating a kbd and mouse, and charging 2013-10-14 03:45 yes, such a device has tons of interfaces. the drawback is that you'll want to use it for more things than just passwords. and that's where vulnerabilities come in. 2013-10-14 03:45 and it easily can maintain any level of security and privacy and smartness you'd possibly need to keep your password vault safe 2013-10-14 03:46 but yes, as long as you find that risk acceptable, a smartphone makes a very nice password safe 2013-10-14 03:47 now this porject just fails due to my schedule cluttered and me being too lazy ;-) 2013-10-14 03:47 would be really nice particularly since I always carry a N900 with me, and even had a second one to sync with and keep the 2nd one plugged in to my PC all the time 2013-10-14 03:48 http://maemo.org/packages/view/bluemaemo/ 2013-10-14 03:49 doing plain HID emu via USB should be way more simple still 2013-10-14 04:02 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 2013-10-14 04:14 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-14 04:40 xiangfu has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-10-14 04:52 dandon_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-14 04:54 dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-10-14 04:54 dandon_ is now known as dandon 2013-10-14 06:47 wpwrak: http://ubertooth.sourceforge.net/ 2013-10-14 06:59 wpwrak: designed in KiCAD ;-D 2013-10-14 07:06 unclouded has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2013-10-14 07:44 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-14 07:52 porchaso0 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-14 07:54 porchao has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-10-14 07:56 apelete: -16 is -EBUSY, so it's probably like Paul said, something else claimed the range before 2013-10-14 07:57 did you remove the UDC from the platform configuration? 2013-10-14 08:00 mth: no I didn't. I thought not building the udc driver into the kernel was enough 2013-10-14 08:00 that should be enough 2013-10-14 08:00 maybe double check that it is indeed not being built 2013-10-14 08:01 ok, will check that 2013-10-14 08:05 mth: from my kernel config file: # CONFIG_USB_JZ4740 is not set 2013-10-14 08:05 so it shouldn't be built 2013-10-14 08:05 you can check /proc/iomem 2013-10-14 08:05 to see who requested the region 2013-10-14 08:05 just `cat /proc/iomem` 2013-10-14 08:06 'kay, will try that when I get back from work then 2013-10-14 08:06 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-10-14 08:08 * apelete wish he had more flexible work hours 2013-10-14 08:17 wolfspraul has quit [Quit: leaving] 2013-10-14 08:22 9-5? 2013-10-14 08:30 yeah 2013-10-14 08:31 mine is more like 9-9 ;) 2013-10-14 08:32 ha ha :-) 2013-10-14 08:32 I'm trying to stick to 9-5 in order to get some hacking time left 2013-10-14 08:34 not easy to do, especially in a big company 2013-10-14 08:35 what do you do for your dayjob? 2013-10-14 08:35 working at intel as a contractor, on android devices 2013-10-14 08:37 kernel debugging, and working on debug & profile tools 2013-10-14 08:38 any chance you'll be in edinburgh next week? 2013-10-14 08:38 mostly trying to stick to low level free software stuff ;) 2013-10-14 08:38 larsc: don't think so, I'm working in Toulouse (France). why ? 2013-10-14 08:40 LinuxCon Europe 2013-10-14 08:40 and Embedded Linux Conference Europe 2013-10-14 08:40 and all the other Linux related conferences 2013-10-14 08:42 doesn't one need to get an invitation to attend those ? 2013-10-14 08:42 :D 2013-10-14 08:42 you need to pay lots of money 2013-10-14 08:42 but that's all 2013-10-14 08:42 :D 2013-10-14 08:43 I saw that some Intel employees are going to give talks, so I though you might be there as well 2013-10-14 08:45 never had the chance to attend those events yet 2013-10-14 08:46 It's my first time as well, as it is close by this year 2013-10-14 08:46 DocScrutinizer05: hmm, could be something worth looking into. the chip is already EOL, but there's a replacement 2013-10-14 08:47 larsc: ok, I see. I usually go to FOSDEM, not only close by but also take place during the week-end 2013-10-14 08:48 I wonder if they eventually will get a complete bluetooth stack working on that thing 2013-10-14 08:48 apelete: me too. 2013-10-14 08:49 take place during the week-end -> no need to take the week off or ask for management agreement to attend ;) 2013-10-14 08:49 porchao has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-14 08:50 larsc: ah great, maybe we'll meet at Fosdem next year then :) 2013-10-14 08:51 yep 2013-10-14 08:51 porchaso0 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-10-14 08:55 apelete: yeah, it's not that close to my place, so I felt a bit unhappy about the ticket prices 2013-10-14 08:56 no matter if train or plane, it's always ballpark of 150EUR one-way and takes 5..8h 2013-10-14 08:58 there are airplane tickets to Bruxelles for some 35EUR but not from any airport I could reach without a train ticket for 120EUR 2013-10-14 08:59 panda|x201 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-14 08:59 6h train ride from here, I think 2013-10-14 08:59 or 8? 2013-10-14 08:59 DocScrutinizer05: yeah, I pay the same for train tickets to Bruxelles too, but since it's one of the few events I can actually attend, I try not to think about the price :) 2013-10-14 09:00 well, at a certain expense all trying doesn't help ;-D 2013-10-14 09:00 300 for tickets, 200 for hotel 2013-10-14 09:00 another probably almost 100 for local transport 2013-10-14 09:02 I could already get a week of holiday in the south for that 2013-10-14 09:02 It's all in walking distance 2013-10-14 09:02 except the hotel, and the airport 2013-10-14 09:05 seems that the RF frontend chip isn't even required 2013-10-14 09:05 right, but last year taxi from the train station to the hotel was like 10 euros 2013-10-14 09:05 DocScrutinizer05: same problem here, but the positive side is there's not registration fee for FOSDEM 2013-10-14 09:06 once you get there, it's all free ;) 2013-10-14 09:06 :nod: anyway I can't afford 2013-10-14 09:07 always the same with such stuff (holiday as well) either you got all the time for it, or sufficient money. Hardly both at same time though 2013-10-14 09:08 yeah, that's a tricky problem to solve 2013-10-14 09:14 DocScrutinizer05: being software-heavy does indeed seem to be the main limitation of this chip. well, and not supporting EDR. but that's probably okay. alas, it doesn't have an RNG, so it could only be used in a design that already has one. 2013-10-14 09:15 DocScrutinizer05: a nice thing to consider in a v2 design, though. thanks ! 2013-10-14 09:15 which chip do you discuss? 2013-10-14 09:16 TI CC2500 2013-10-14 09:17 the successor of the one these folks use: http://ubertooth.sourceforge.net/ 2013-10-14 09:17 wpwrak: welcome 2013-10-14 09:49 unclouded has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-14 09:59 paul_boddie has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-14 10:05 "Inevitably many products have one or two components that fall into the general category of unobtainium, i.e. impossible to find, and that often causes delays. For the Spark Core, this component was the CC3000, our Wi-Fi module, which was an important part of the design and therefore could not be replaced." 2013-10-14 10:05 http://z.svbtle.com/why-kickstarter-projects-are-always-delayed 2013-10-14 10:06 Sorry: the CC2500 reference got me thinking about TI products and it all sounded familiar. 2013-10-14 10:08 Another fairly interesting project I saw recently was one whose modules are described here: http://tessel.io/modules 2013-10-14 10:11 That project seems to use a Bluegiga BT module. There are docs on bluegiga.com, but I imagine the firmware is off limits as usual. 2013-10-14 10:17 sourcing issues can pop up any time. that's just life :) chips are generally much safer than modules. as far as i now, ti don't have a bad reputation when it comes to lifecycle management. 2013-10-14 10:18 of course, stay away from brand-new product categories. from anyone :) 2013-10-14 10:18 it's also always nice to have a fallback solution. e.g., a cc2500 (new) could probably be replaced with a cc2400 (EOL) 2013-10-14 10:20 modules are high-risk because they depend on a lot of factors: availability of components, health of the chip maker, health of the module maker, volume of the module (generally much lower than that of the corresponding chips), and so on 2013-10-14 10:20 Yes, TI should be OK. If you have a lot of unhappy Kickstarter donors (who think they are customers) then time is not on your side, I suppose. 2013-10-14 10:20 if you're buying a million a month, you make making that module worthwhile on your own, so you don't have to worry about such things 2013-10-14 10:20 but if you're a kickstarter-grade project, you're completely at the mercy of others 2013-10-14 10:21 i like the title "why kickstarter projects are [...] late". something completely unheard of in IT ;-) 2013-10-14 10:22 :-) 2013-10-14 10:22 i actually wonder how they deal with cost overruns. what if you find out your kickstarter project needs 50% more money than you planned ? is there a mechanism for getting people to add some, well into the project ? 2013-10-14 10:23 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-14 10:24 you have to pay for it yourself I guess 2013-10-14 10:24 I was reading the comments on the GCW-Zero Kickstarter. Quite depressing with all the foot-stamping and "I want it now!" shenanigans. 2013-10-14 10:24 panda|x201 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-10-14 10:25 wpwrak: Like when a company has to issue more shares? Sorry, Kickstarters, but your share is diluted and you only get half a gadget unless you pony up! 2013-10-14 10:26 lol 2013-10-14 10:26 well, what kind of audience do you expect if you're making a game console ? ;-) 2013-10-14 10:26 @ "pay yourself" 2013-10-14 10:26 porchaso0 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-14 10:26 larsc: i suppose few projects would be able to do that ... 2013-10-14 10:26 at least not after passing a certain size 2013-10-14 10:27 you probably also need a full time position to just manage all the angry comments 2013-10-14 10:27 ask pandora? 2013-10-14 10:28 paul_boddie: yeah, kinda. only that shared tend not to have a direct 1:1 connection with products. so you can hide it better. 2013-10-14 10:28 afaik they should have experience in handling such a situation? 2013-10-14 10:28 porchao has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-10-14 10:28 larsc: just recruit the angriest of the commenters :) 2013-10-14 10:28 or wasn't it openpandora? 2013-10-14 10:28 openpandora 2013-10-14 10:28 nomen est omen ;-) 2013-10-14 10:28 hehe 2013-10-14 10:29 actually I wonder what happened really to them 2013-10-14 10:30 I missed their undoubtly verbose and apologizing explanations what happened to the project 2013-10-14 10:30 it looks like they shipped eventually 2013-10-14 10:30 I just heard they had to ask for yet another full spin of the donation wheel 2013-10-14 10:30 quite some time back 2013-10-14 10:31 i think they financed finishing their first batch with the money they made for the second batch 2013-10-14 10:31 kinda pyramid scheme 2013-10-14 10:31 yep, sth like that 2013-10-14 10:31 but how did they burn the money for the first batch? 2013-10-14 10:32 They dealt with a company that made bad PCBs, if I remember correctly. 2013-10-14 10:32 bad luck 2013-10-14 10:32 Or maybe the company who was doing the board assembly dropped the ball, and then the PCBs weren't good. 2013-10-14 10:32 "We received the last working PCBs from them July 2011. Over 1000 PCBs were broken... over 300K EUR lost." 2013-10-14 10:32 http://boards.openpandora.org/index.php/page/articles.html/_/general-information/the-history-of-the-pandora-r57 2013-10-14 10:33 OMG, facts! ;-) 2013-10-14 10:33 larsc: thanks 2013-10-14 10:34 I think Golden Delicious were talking to them about manufacturing partners at some point. 2013-10-14 10:34 LOL! 2013-10-14 10:34 > >The bank froze Craigs bank account due to a sudden increase of funds there. Within a few days, over about half a million USD popped up there - and the credit card companies panicked (even though Craig explicitely told them before that this will happen) .Same with PayPal.. .Most of the payments had to be refunded and repaid using some other payment method.<< 2013-10-14 10:37 Well, dealing with the financial industry is perhaps even worse than random electronics manufacturers. 2013-10-14 10:37 must've been in the USA. US Banks seem to be able to do whatever they like with _your_ money 2013-10-14 10:38 in the US, chances are it's theirs anyway ;-) 2013-10-14 10:38 see maemo Hildon Faoundation. The bank quit the account, and sent a check drawn on "Hildon Faoundation" that now nobody is willing to accept 2013-10-14 10:38 It's the taxpayers' money, surely. ;-) 2013-10-14 10:39 I think it is common practice to freeze bank accounts if unusual transactions are detected 2013-10-14 10:39 DocScrutinizer05: And not for an amount that's worth changing your name to Hildon Foundation for? 2013-10-14 10:39 I think they should go and die in a dark and dirty place 2013-10-14 10:40 paul_boddie: a ridiculous 2k or sth 2013-10-14 10:40 $2M would be a different story. :-) 2013-10-14 10:42 larsc: it just seems a bit unusual if that's for months. half a million EUR isn't *that* much after all. any bankster moves that in the morning even before entering the office 2013-10-14 10:42 the idiot who had the approval on that account at "first niagara" was too dull to get it sorted 2013-10-14 10:42 a lawyer ;-) 2013-10-14 10:42 paul_boddie: or 20 billion: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2437208/Is-Saddam-Husseins-fortune-warehouse-Moscow-Mystery-16-75bn-piles-cash-left-airport-years.html 2013-10-14 10:42 "first nigeria" ? 2013-10-14 10:44 yeah, my fav "abreviation" 2013-10-14 10:44 it's obvious 2013-10-14 10:46 I'd recommend to steer clear of that bank 2013-10-14 10:46 and *paypal*... oh well.. we don't need to talk about them, eh? 2013-10-14 10:47 they freeze your account when somebody in your street doesn't behave 2013-10-14 10:47 literally 2013-10-14 10:49 they frozen the accounts of all those in a 10 story building that had a name slightly resembling the name of one user who also didn't do something really bad but somehow managed to get paypal's AI upset 2013-10-14 10:51 anyway I need to finally check the policies/rules of kickstarter and that other similar thing 2013-10-14 10:51 indiegogo. less US-centric than kickstarter 2013-10-14 10:51 we (golDeliCo) eventually want to raise 20k EUR for the prototypes 2013-10-14 10:53 and I for one would prefer that being a down payment to the final device cost as weel as some venture capital that doesn't need to get paid back when stuff goes terribly haywire 2013-10-14 10:53 I saw another one just recently: http://www.dragoninnovation.com/ 2013-10-14 10:53 I even saw a Norwegian one recently, too. Everyone wants in on the action! 2013-10-14 10:54 yeah easy money - for them 2013-10-14 10:54 DocScrutinizer05: afaik kickstarter is us only when it comes to payouts 2013-10-14 10:54 roh: hi! please rephrase 2013-10-14 10:54 so maybe indygogo or its friends help you better 2013-10-14 10:55 DocScrutinizer05: you have to be a us citicen to be able fo get money from a successfull campaign at kickstarter 2013-10-14 10:55 dang! 2013-10-14 10:55 atleast that was the case when i checked last. 2013-10-14 10:56 Nikolaus disliked the whole kickstarter et al stuff particularly for the hassle and the fees, but he hopes for the "visibility" aka PR 2013-10-14 10:56 Isn't it US/CA/UK? Not that I really know. 2013-10-14 10:56 i think you need someone in the US to handle the finances (with kickstarter). you could still have the money go elsewhere, but yes, it's at least inconvenient 2013-10-14 10:56 DocScrutinizer05: kickstarter and friends is a very hipster-way of doing pr and funding. 2013-10-14 10:57 not one which makes you look serious 2013-10-14 10:57 well, maybe US/CA now 2013-10-14 10:57 yeah 2013-10-14 10:57 so if you dont need 'risk capital' but funding, i'd suuggest choosing a different concept. maybe also an open one, but different 2013-10-14 10:57 I guess we'll go the jolla way of selling premium preorder vouchers 2013-10-14 10:58 just have the facebook and paypal logo on your campaign, then everyone will know you're serious :) 2013-10-14 10:58 that give you eligibility for a certain service/goods 2013-10-14 10:58 DocScrutinizer05: i wouldnt give any cent for something as useless as that 2013-10-14 10:58 vouchers are a good sign of vaporvare 2013-10-14 10:58 s/vr/war/g 2013-10-14 10:59 then what else? 2013-10-14 10:59 if your project is a one trick pony, then there's no big difference between voucher and preorder 2013-10-14 10:59 sell goods. 2013-10-14 10:59 just a sign "deposit money here please!" ? 2013-10-14 10:59 simple as that. no futures, no bonds. simple preorder (if you need capital upfront) 2013-10-14 10:59 indiegogo also has "flexible funding". there, you can keep the money also if you don't reach the funding goal. has higher fees, though. 2013-10-14 10:59 sorry the last to posts don't help me at all 2013-10-14 11:00 I dunno what's a "one trick pony" 2013-10-14 11:00 if you're looking for kinda partial funding, that may be a choice 2013-10-14 11:00 and "sell goods" is exactly what we can't do 2013-10-14 11:01 Yes, as I recall Ubuntu Edge could have kept their supporters' money if they had chosen flexible funding, but Shuttleworth clearly wanted the full amount (or the publicity for specifying a big amount). 2013-10-14 11:01 "one trick pony" = a pony (in a circus or such) that can do one trick, but only one trick. so it's totally single-purpose. 2013-10-14 11:01 since there is a 0.3% risk we'll burn the money just like openpandora did 2013-10-14 11:02 if your risk is really as low as 0.3%, you should go into the nuclear power business :) 2013-10-14 11:03 wpwrak: fine, now I know what's a "one trick pony". Now what's a "one trick pony project"? 2013-10-14 11:03