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2013-10-11 02:33 <DocScrutinizer05> :-/
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2013-10-11 08:57 <kyak> and i don't understand why you care so much
2013-10-11 08:57 <kyak> if you can explain, maybe i'll whitelist cookies, too :)
2013-10-11 09:03 <whitequark> advertisers' cookies essentially can vacuum up your browser history very efficiently
2013-10-11 09:03 <whitequark> then they compose a portrait of you, which they use to display targeted ads and also sell to whomever wants it
2013-10-11 09:07 <whitequark> non-advertisers can also do that to tailor search results based not on just query but on the portrait as well ("bubble")
2013-10-11 09:07 <whitequark> though I only know of search engines doing that. essentially, Google displays not what you need but what you want to see.
2013-10-11 09:09 <viric> what they want you to see
2013-10-11 09:09 <whitequark> what will maximize their profit.
2013-10-11 09:10 <viric> but linked with NSA...
2013-10-11 09:11 <kyak> i don't mind that, i guess.. I always search google when i logged in anyway
2013-10-11 09:11 <viric> their profit may be related to fiscal advantages, in interchange with NSA for data
2013-10-11 09:11 <viric> as snowden explained.
2013-10-11 09:11 <viric> you share data with the government, you pay less taxes.
2013-10-11 09:12 <kyak> yeah, i notice that if i searched for a new fridge, i will then see fridges everywhere
2013-10-11 09:12 <kyak> but i don't care.. why would i care?
2013-10-11 09:12 <viric> then you have the trade of data between governments secret services...
2013-10-11 09:12 <whitequark> kyak: try searching for herpes
2013-10-11 09:12 <kyak> whitequark: only if i really need :)
2013-10-11 09:12 <viric> and finally you get FSB at your door
2013-10-11 09:12 <whitequark> the motivation here is more or less the same as motivation for privacy in general
2013-10-11 09:13 <kyak> it doesn't have to do with privacy
2013-10-11 09:13 <kyak> what i do in internet is not private
2013-10-11 09:13 <kyak> so why hide?
2013-10-11 09:13 <viric> kyak: because you think you publish less than what you publish
2013-10-11 09:13 <whitequark> viric: I don't think Google's bubble is politically motivated, at least for now
2013-10-11 09:13 <kyak> i maybe even like targeted ads :)
2013-10-11 09:13 <viric> whitequark: snowden showed the fiscal advantages to companies that collaborate.
2013-10-11 09:14 <kyak> viric: i publish less than i have on my HDD?
2013-10-11 09:14 <viric> kyak: you start with this thinking, and you end up that the Big Brother improves your safety.
2013-10-11 09:14 <viric> thinking taht.
2013-10-11 09:14 <viric> that
2013-10-11 09:14 <whitequark> viric: sure, what I mean is that they don't *filter* results based on someone else's instructions
2013-10-11 09:14 <whitequark> at least silently
2013-10-11 09:15 <viric> whitequark: ah, no. I mean they simply sell their fingerprinting
2013-10-11 09:15 <whitequark> Google doesn't sell it to third parties, though to NSA maybe.
2013-10-11 09:15 <viric> I meant NSA, yes.
2013-10-11 09:16 <whitequark> kyak: HDD doesn't matter
2013-10-11 09:16 <kyak> viric: people on the street can learn so much more about you by just looking at you. Are you concerned about your privacy in the street?
2013-10-11 09:16 <whitequark> by algorithmically processing your behavior, it's possible to figure out facts you never shared explicitly, or wanted to
2013-10-11 09:17 <whitequark> e.g. http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-target-figured-out-a-teen-girl-was-pregnant-before-her-father-did/
2013-10-11 09:17 <kyak> whitequark: by following you in the street, it is possible to find out much more
2013-10-11 09:17 <whitequark> kyak: following you in the street is a) costly b) easy to detect
2013-10-11 09:17 <viric> kyak: all they know about you can be later used against you. For example, they may know what you cannot prove, when they face you with a false accusation.
2013-10-11 09:17 <whitequark> following you in the internet is a) cheap b) next to impossible to detect or circumvent
2013-10-11 09:18 <viric> Like they could do with Navalny
2013-10-11 09:18 <kyak> whitequark: really? do you know how many cameras are in the street? They have a 24hour footage of you every day :)
2013-10-11 09:18 <kyak> you hiding cookies just sound funny
2013-10-11 09:19 <kyak> thinking it would improve "privacy"
2013-10-11 09:19 <whitequark> kyak: to begin with, it would
2013-10-11 09:19 <viric> you can try the evercookie :)
2013-10-11 09:20 <whitequark> then, on the street, yeah--though it is far from being cheap or easy to use, and is only true for some cities in some countries
2013-10-11 09:21 <viric> you have the positioning by mobile phone antennas, if you use them
2013-10-11 09:21 <viric> it depends on what do you prefer to keep hidden.
2013-10-11 09:21 <viric> And about internet... it's much easier to avoid the disclosure of private data in internet, than on street.
2013-10-11 09:22 <viric> So if it is easy, you better avoid the disclosure. You never know when that will be used against yo.
2013-10-11 09:22 <whitequark> viric: I doubt that
2013-10-11 09:22 <kyak> it is much more probable that authorities will get information about you from their own sources (they have plenty of governmental databses), your internet provider etc, than from your cookies..
2013-10-11 09:22 <viric> doubt what?
2013-10-11 09:22 <whitequark> kyak: I don't care very much about authorities
2013-10-11 09:22 <kyak> seriously, you are giving yourself a safe sense of privacy
2013-10-11 09:23 <viric> well, we have to add that it gives a relief to act as a secret agent
2013-10-11 09:23 <viric> you have to enjoy the fun of that game, because it is set for you to play it.
2013-10-11 09:23 <kyak> whitequark: ok, in this case the only way these companies can profit from you is if you give them your money
2013-10-11 09:24 <whitequark> kyak: that's... just not true at all
2013-10-11 09:24 <whitequark> companies can profit from you a lot even if you will never give them money at all. case in point: facebook
2013-10-11 09:24 <kyak> what's up with that?
2013-10-11 09:24 <whitequark> viric, kyak: (and I personally don't hide cookies, by the way. but, whatever)
2013-10-11 09:24 <whitequark> kyak: hm?
2013-10-11 09:25 <viric> We need people playing the secret agent game
2013-10-11 09:25 <kyak> whitequark: how they profit from you by watching your cookies?
2013-10-11 09:25 <viric> Because otherwise, anyone not hiding the cookies, will be suspect.
2013-10-11 09:25 <whitequark> kyak: google "ad retargeting", for example
2013-10-11 09:25 <kyak> whitequark: the aim of ads is your money
2013-10-11 09:25 <viric> It's like https. Luckily, https is spread. Otherwise, using ciphering for https would raise suspicion.
2013-10-11 09:26 <whitequark> kyak: the companies which show me ads don't profit from me.
2013-10-11 09:26 <viric> kyak: yes, and the government wants your well being and safety too.
2013-10-11 09:26 <kyak> they will show you ads with or without cookies
2013-10-11 09:26 <whitequark> viric: https is not exactly secure
2013-10-11 09:27 <viric> whitequark: you can have secure things over https
2013-10-11 09:27 <whitequark> it takes one compromised CA for being able to MITM everything
2013-10-11 09:27 <viric> which does not mean any https is secure
2013-10-11 09:27 <kyak> viric: the government doesn't care about me, but i don't understand what it has to do with cookies. .seriously
2013-10-11 09:27 <viric> kyak: it's about not accepting any step back
2013-10-11 09:27 <viric> kyak: you could say the same about the FOSS. "A bit of non-FOSS doesn't hurt"
2013-10-11 09:28 <viric> and you end up running skype in an android factory-flashed phone
2013-10-11 09:28 <viric> kyak: you should be ashamed, that the government doesn't care about you ;)
2013-10-11 09:29 <kyak> viric: no, it's a about your convenience. Convenience (for me) is much more above FOSS. It is, however, possible that i might feel inconvenientwhen using non-FOSS. But it only proves that convenience is above FOSS
2013-10-11 09:29 <whitequark> convenience and security are two ends of an one spectrum
2013-10-11 09:30 <viric> Tatcher said: you only have to make happy two thirds of the people. You win ellections, and you can fuck one third to make the two-thirds feel over average.
2013-10-11 09:31 <viric> that's also called fascism. Kick off a minority for advantage of the majority. But it works, and it's convenient for most of the population.
2013-10-11 09:31 <kyak> incorrect, you only need to make happy 51% of those who actually came to vote :)
2013-10-11 09:31 <viric> this reaches godwin soon.
2013-10-11 09:32 <kyak> taking about 30-35% attendance, it's much less
2013-10-11 09:32 <whitequark> attending population does not necessarily represent views of it as a whole
2013-10-11 09:33 <kyak> sure, sure
2013-10-11 09:34 <viric> whitequark: but that doesn't matter, in terms of governing
2013-10-11 09:34 <whitequark> viric: it's a quantitive difference, yes
2013-10-11 09:36 <viric> Have you seen this tox.im thing, btw?
2013-10-11 09:36 <kyak> viric: juts wondering, do you use cookie whitelisting yourself?
2013-10-11 09:36 <viric> kyak: yes, with the cookie monster
2013-10-11 09:36 <viric> but that's only *one* fingerprinting technique.
2013-10-11 09:37 <kyak> viric: do you have JS disabled?
2013-10-11 09:37 <viric> Not always.
2013-10-11 09:37 <viric> often not.
2013-10-11 09:38 <kyak> can you give a link to that cookie omnster?
2013-10-11 09:38 <viric> it's a firefox plugin, named that way
2013-10-11 09:38 <kyak> my google bubble will now suggest that i'm a fan of that blue creature :0
2013-10-11 09:40 <kyak> ok, it's interesting
2013-10-11 09:40 <kyak> i might use it for blacklisting :)
2013-10-11 09:40 <viric> that will give you a false sense of security
2013-10-11 09:40 <viric> ;)
2013-10-11 09:40 <kyak> though i don't know what i'dd like to blacklist
2013-10-11 09:40 <whitequark> there's ghostery for blacklisting
2013-10-11 09:41 <whitequark> it's closed-source and, well, blacklisting. I have it installed because it kills annoying stuff, but don't rely on it.
2013-10-11 09:41 <viric> I also use privoxy
2013-10-11 09:42 <kyak> i think i used to use adblock or something.. but at some point of time i got rid of it
2013-10-11 09:42 <viric> privoxy doesn't make your browser slow
2013-10-11 09:44 <kyak> "obnoxious Internet junk" :)
2013-10-11 09:44 <kyak> the author seems to be pissed off
2013-10-11 09:44 <whitequark> viric: adblock doesn't either?
2013-10-11 09:45 <viric> whitequark: it did for me. but I have quite slow computers :)
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