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2013-10-09 03:59 <whitequark> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqOaWM85J0s#t=158
2013-10-09 03:59 <whitequark> er, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqOaWM85J0s
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2013-10-09 06:23 <ysionneau> whitequark: ahah :)
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2013-10-09 10:11 <larsc> whitequark: here's a sandwich for you http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTQ4MDU
2013-10-09 10:12 <whitequark> I would actually back that
2013-10-09 10:13 <whitequark> not because I expect something in return, but more like, I could pour $500 into netflix or $500 into gpl-gpu
2013-10-09 10:13 <whitequark> and both may provide me with some entertainment value.
2013-10-09 10:14 <roh> hrhr
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2013-10-09 10:20 <kyak> hehe
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2013-10-09 12:01 <wpwrak> hmm, i wonder how difficult a 2D gpu can be ... measured in sebastien-minutes
2013-10-09 12:04 <larsc> the problem with sebastien-minutes are that you can parallelize them
2013-10-09 12:05 <larsc> so even if your algorithem as a low total running time you can speed it up, by distributing it in the cloud
2013-10-09 12:06 <larsc> algorithm
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2013-10-09 12:06 qwebirc96585 is now known as rjeffries
2013-10-09 12:07 <rjeffries> Reality of current password/passphrase cracking is, uh, depressing. see: http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/10/how-the-bible-and-youtube-are-fueling-the-next-frontier-of-password-cracking/
2013-10-09 12:10 <wpwrak> yeah, a bare password is very unsafe. you really need to rate-limit decryption attempts.
2013-10-09 12:10 <wpwrak> then use the password to unlock a long string of random bits
2013-10-09 12:10 <whitequark> larsc: what
2013-10-09 12:11 <whitequark> wpwrak: so, bcrypt with salt is all you need
2013-10-09 12:11 <whitequark> (bcrypt is a hash algo specifically designed to be slow when implemented on FPGA)
2013-10-09 12:12 <kyak> so.. don't use dictionary words and do use long passwords?
2013-10-09 12:13 <larsc> kyak: and use something a human wouldn't think of
2013-10-09 12:13 <whitequark> kyak: well, try to remember 30 symbols of alphanumeric garbage and tell me how well it works
2013-10-09 12:13 <whitequark> it's fine if you have a password safe, but you have to unlock *that* with something.
2013-10-09 12:13 <kyak> whitequark: remember it once, probably use some mnemonics, and then use variations of that
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2013-10-09 12:15 <larsc> if they steal your safe from you computer all is probably lost anyway
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2013-10-09 12:15 <wpwrak> keep the master secret in an MCU. it
2013-10-09 12:15 <whitequark> kyak: still too hard. especially if you want to rotate it, which is a Good Idea.
2013-10-09 12:15 <wpwrak> 's not so easy to get things out of these
2013-10-09 12:15 <whitequark> I cannot reliably type in even a mixed-case passphrase
2013-10-09 12:16 <kyak> whitequark: no argue with that
2013-10-09 12:16 <whitequark> larsc: if they can decrypt it.
2013-10-09 12:16 <whitequark> bcrypt with a good passphrase will give you at least enough time to change every password you have there.
2013-10-09 12:17 <larsc> whitequark: I meant if they have access to your machine they can probably just sniff when you enter the passphrase to unlock the safe
2013-10-09 12:17 <kyak> what if your password safe is encrypted twice, just for fun? :) I imagine those guys spending resources on decrypting the first wrapper, only to find the second one.. And they don't really know if there's going to be another one
2013-10-09 12:18 <whitequark> larsc: if they have access to your machine, all is lost anyway
2013-10-09 12:18 <whitequark> I was thinking along the lines of "stolen notebook"
2013-10-09 12:18 <whitequark> which you can actually defend against.
2013-10-09 12:18 <whitequark> kyak: security through obscurity. known to not work
2013-10-09 12:19 <larsc> it helps against driver by attacks
2013-10-09 12:19 <kyak> whitequark: that's not obscurity
2013-10-09 12:20 <rjeffries> kyak did you read the damn article? very (!) long passphrases that have been partially onfusicated and are way way off teh beaten path are vulnerable.
2013-10-09 12:20 <larsc> drive
2013-10-09 12:20 <whitequark> kyak: oh, so you mean to make them spend more resources?
2013-10-09 12:20 <whitequark> bcrypt already includes that, with a factor you can adjust
2013-10-09 12:21 <kyak> rjeffries: these were dictionary words, that's the root cause if i read correct
2013-10-09 12:21 <whitequark> wpwrak: last time I checked, you could erase the lock bits with a bit of acid and black electric tape :p
2013-10-09 12:21 <whitequark> (on some PICs)
2013-10-09 12:21 <rjeffries> agree that totally random longish passwords are good. also impossible to memorize
2013-10-09 12:22 <kyak> whitequark: yeah, for spending more resources and making it unclear how much more resources they would need
2013-10-09 12:22 <kyak> demotivate them :)
2013-10-09 12:22 <rjeffries> wpwrak will anelok generate passwords? I forget the specs. ;)
2013-10-09 12:22 <wpwrak> whitequark: yes, at some point in time, you want to make your own crypto chip, with a few extra layers
2013-10-09 12:23 <wpwrak> rjeffries: yup. it the idea is that it can propose passwords
2013-10-09 12:23 <whitequark> kyak: how would you know when to stop if you yourself mistyped your password?
2013-10-09 12:24 <whitequark> with the scheme you're proposing, it seems that the process will never end
2013-10-09 12:24 <rjeffries> wpwrak: cool. useful.
2013-10-09 12:24 <wpwrak> (based on an alphabet the user selects and a suitable string of random bits the device generates)
2013-10-09 12:24 <whitequark> though, that actually can play in your advantage
2013-10-09 12:24 <whitequark> wpwrak: shut up and take my money already
2013-10-09 12:24 <kyak> whitequark: you know how many layers this onion has
2013-10-09 12:25 <wpwrak> :)
2013-10-09 12:25 <rjeffries> wpwrak: there *is* a market for your gadget.  lol
2013-10-09 12:25 <rjeffries> you already sold qty = 2
2013-10-09 12:25 <kyak> this article was written by wpwrak's marketing department! the truth is reveled!
2013-10-09 12:26 <rjeffries> by the way you current industrial design is rather nice. You've tapped your inner Jonny Ives.
2013-10-09 12:27 <wpwrak> ;-)
2013-10-09 12:27 <rjeffries> s/you/your/
2013-10-09 12:27 <qi-bot> rjeffries meant: "by the way your current industrial design is rather nice. You've tapped yourr inner Jonny Ives."
2013-10-09 12:28 <rjeffries> I see one needs to include a trailing space to avoid expanding embedded substring
2013-10-09 12:29 <wpwrak> maybe i should snap another picture. i now also have the display working "standalone". gave a bit of trouble. first i had one pin shorted, which caused the device to burn up to about 500 mA if it let it, then i had inverted one signal in the schematics (when going from the display-only prototype to the full device prototype) and faithfully copied that into the firmware, making communication with the display fail.
2013-10-09 12:30 <wpwrak> i then though that maybe i had fried the display and replaced it. only then did i find the bug. so now i have a working display, plus one that's a bit tattered of unknown state
2013-10-09 12:41 <wpwrak> ah, and the wheel is working, too
2013-10-09 12:49 <rjeffries> round and round it goes. where it stops, nobody knows. Indiegogo?
2013-10-09 12:51 <wpwrak> i'd hope it doesn't stop there :)
2013-10-09 12:54 <rjeffries> you have something against crowdfunding?
2013-10-09 12:54 <wpwrak> not at all. but it it _stops_ there, that would mean failure, wouldn't it ?
2013-10-09 13:41 <rjeffries> wpwrak: agreed.
2013-10-09 13:52 <rjeffries> wpwrak is it fair to assume that anelok is independent of OS on the target PC that interacts with the internet? in other words it is simply a USB device that presents a (I think?) HID USB to teh host, be that Linux or Windows or (of interest to me) Chromeos?
2013-10-09 14:02 <wpwrak> at that level, yes. there would be more advanced functions that would create additional dependencies, though. e.g., pre-selecting a password entry, pc-based password management, and such
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2013-10-09 15:09 <eintopf> hi :-)
2013-10-09 15:09 <FrankBlues> Howdy!
2013-10-09 15:09 <wpwrak> hmm, does anyone know vflib ? it seems that it should be able to convert fonts into bitmaps. alas, while it lists a great many fonts, it then don't find them
2013-10-09 15:11 <viric> freetype also converts fonts into bitmaps :)
2013-10-09 15:12 <wpwrak> are there command-line tools to do that ?
2013-10-09 15:13 <wpwrak> (i want bitmaps i can use in my program. not bitmaps on the screen :)
2013-10-09 15:16 <larsc> make photograph of your screen and then scan the result ;)
2013-10-09 15:17 <wpwrak> yeah, there's half a dozen programs to visualize fonts. then xwd, ... ;-)
2013-10-09 15:18 <viric> wpwrak: imagemagick can render text I think
2013-10-09 15:19 <viric> maybe you can use 'conjure' or soemthing like that to render whatever you want
2013-10-09 15:20 <wpwrak> ah, should have thought of that. imagemagick can do kinda everything :) let's see ...
2013-10-09 15:21 <larsc> I think there are dozens of programs out there that generate you for example a 16x16 glyphs bitmap
2013-10-09 15:22 <viric> if you want small fonts, you better get a bitmap font of that size, instead of rendering a vector one.
2013-10-09 15:22 <wpwrak> yes, i suppose there are. the issue is finding them ;-)
2013-10-09 15:23 <wpwrak> hmm, and imagemagick.org doesn't load :-(
2013-10-09 15:25 <wpwrak> -draw <something> seems to be the magic word
2013-10-09 15:29 <wpwrak> nice. if you use it with "convert", it works. if you use it with "display", it fails silently.
2013-10-09 15:31 <viric> magick.
2013-10-09 15:31 <wpwrak> hmm, not too great results, though. alpha-blends then dithers them :-(
2013-10-09 15:32 <wpwrak> guess i need a more specialized tool ...
2013-10-09 15:32 <viric> it's a hell to get monochrome from vector fonts
2013-10-09 15:32 <viric> When I want monochrome fonts, I use bitmap fonts, not vector
2013-10-09 15:34 <viric> even vector rendering to grayscale is full of tricks; antialiasing, subpixel rendering, hinting, ...
2013-10-09 15:34 <wpwrak> maybe i should just decode the X .pcf files ...
2013-10-09 15:36 <rjeffries> wpwrak: I still hope when you refine user interface you consider displaying a larger image of the currently selected character something like 2x or 3x magnification of current character would so totally rock.
2013-10-09 15:37 <wpwrak> bloody complex, though. where's version v1.0 of all this ? :(
2013-10-09 15:38 <wpwrak> rjeffries: naw, i'd try to avoid such weird magnifying tricks. just use a readable font ;)
2013-10-09 15:40 <viric> X pcf files are bitmap fonts. Das ist gut
2013-10-09 15:46 <viric> I guess imagemagick can only render fontconfig fonts, thus, vector.
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2013-10-09 15:52 <wpwrak> hmm .. -misc-fixed-bold-r-normal-*-15 ? about 10x8 pixels for "normal" characters ...
2013-10-09 15:53 <wpwrak> let's use the power of xwd and bitmap
2013-10-09 15:53 <wpwrak> ... and, say, xmessage
2013-10-09 15:54 <viric> the lazy fox ...
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2013-10-09 15:58 <wpwrak> or maybe just a nice xterm ...
2013-10-09 16:00 <mth> wpwrak: python imaging library can handle converted bdf fonts, according to its docs
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2013-10-09 16:13 <wpwrak> thanks ! i'll try the ultra-traditional approach first ... let's see how it goes :)
2013-10-09 16:23 <wpwrak> works amazingly well :)
2013-10-09 16:28 <larsc> and here is the kickstarter page http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/725991125/open-source-graphics-processor-gpu
2013-10-09 16:32 <larsc> does not sound that great, imho, but well who knows
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2013-10-09 17:41 <mth> a fixed function pipeline for 3D is getting less useful every day
2013-10-09 17:42 <larsc> for 200k it is only fixed function 2d
2013-10-09 17:42 <wpwrak> the big font comes from X: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/brd0-fnt.jpg
2013-10-09 17:42 <wpwrak> (it's the 10x20 font)
2013-10-09 17:42 <mth> yes, but everything between $200K and $1M is fixed function 3D if I remember correctly
2013-10-09 17:43 <wpwrak> and this is the script to do it :) https://gitorious.org/anelok/anelok/source/fw/fontify
2013-10-09 17:44 <mth> and now many 2D functions do you really need nowadays? alpha blended blits is probably what is needed most
2013-10-09 17:45 <larsc> yea, solid rect fill isn't that widely used anymore ;)
2013-10-09 17:46 <wpwrak> block copy ? for text ...
2013-10-09 17:46 <mth> that's a blit with the alpha test disabled
2013-10-09 17:48 <larsc> overlays are quite handy
2013-10-09 17:48 <mth> rect fill isn't hard to implement in case you need it: you just specify a source that is a single color
2013-10-09 17:48 <mth> overlays don't play that well with compositing window managers afaik
2013-10-09 17:49 <larsc> neither does no 3d accleration
2013-10-09 17:49 <mth> you could to a compositing WM with just fast alpha blends, I think
2013-10-09 17:49 <mth> s/to/do/
2013-10-09 17:49 <qi-bot> mth meant: "you could do a compositing WM with just fast alpha blends, I think"
2013-10-09 17:50 <roh> mth: true. but most drivers dont expose any alpha-surface 2d ops anymore
2013-10-09 17:50 <mth> yes, you might have to do both the software and hardware then
2013-10-09 17:50 <roh> so in the end one uses the 3d units for that... simply because thats the only ones left.
2013-10-09 17:50 <mth> but only at the system level; you could use the same interfaces towards the applications
2013-10-09 17:51 <roh> they even removed the video-units on most hw... old radeons had a blitter optimized for video overlays.... nowadays one needs to use a texture on the 3d unit.. a shader
2013-10-09 17:51 <roh> mth: what interface? x11 doesnt support alpha surfaces
2013-10-09 17:52 <roh> classic x11 apps which do alpha do it in-app and fetch the back of the window and the rerender and draw transparency in sw while the expose event comes through
2013-10-09 17:52 <mth> it doesn't? how does KDE make rounded window corners then?
2013-10-09 17:53 <roh> sw rendering
2013-10-09 17:53 <roh> the new stuff is compositing with alpha and apis which arent anymore network transparent afaik
2013-10-09 17:53 <mth> that's how it worked before compositing, I think they use an extension now to push buffers with an alpha component
2013-10-09 17:53 <mth> although I haven't read the code in question, so it's just an impression from blog posts etc
2013-10-09 17:53 <larsc> you can provide a shape for your window
2013-10-09 17:54 <larsc> see e.g. xclock
2013-10-09 17:54 <roh> its not 'straightforward' or 'nice'
2013-10-09 17:54 <roh> larsc: yep. but thats only hard corners. no alpha
2013-10-09 17:54 <roh> basically a mask
2013-10-09 17:54 <mth> network transparency and pretty windows seem to be mutually exclusive under X11
2013-10-09 17:54 <roh> forget x11...
2013-10-09 17:55 <roh> wayland/whatever comes beyond....
2013-10-09 17:55 <mth> afaik the reference implementation of Wayland uses EGL, but the protocol doesn't rely on any 3D functionality
2013-10-09 17:55 <mth> so if you're design your own 2D GPU, you could run Wayland on it just fine
2013-10-09 17:56 <roh> nothing on a 3d unit forces you to use more that 2 dimenstions
2013-10-09 17:56 <mth> s/you're/you'd/
2013-10-09 17:56 <qi-bot> mth meant: "so if you'd design your own 2D GPU, you could run Wayland on it just fine"
2013-10-09 17:56 <roh> after all its just doing triangles ;)
2013-10-09 17:56 <mth> yes, if you have a 3D engine, then by all means use it
2013-10-09 17:57 <mth> I was just thinking of what the minimum functionality would be for a GPU to be useful for 2D apps
2013-10-09 17:57 <roh> not more than a matrox G200/G450 could do. just faster and with alpha surfaces  and i'm happy
2013-10-09 17:57 <mth> since a lot is handled by client side rendering nowadays, composing the final frame is really where the hardware acceleration can still make a difference
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2013-10-09 18:43 <larsc> but most clientside rendering is done with libs like cairo, which can have acceleration backends
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2013-10-09 20:27 <apelete> Hi there
2013-10-09 20:28 <apelete> larsc mth: I built the nop transceiver driver into the kernel and got rid of the "unable to find transceiver of type USB2 PHY" error message during boot -> http://paste.debian.net/54548/
2013-10-09 20:30 <apelete> but I found it strange to have these two messages before the probe is finished (before glue layer is registered):
2013-10-09 20:30 <apelete> [    1.230000] musb-jz4740: hello world!
2013-10-09 20:30 <apelete> [    1.240000] musb-jz4740: goodbye cruel world
2013-10-09 20:30 <apelete> these are from init and exit respectively
2013-10-09 20:31 <apelete> code is here: http://seketeli.fr/git/~apelete/qi-kernel.git/tree/drivers/usb/musb/jz4740.c?h=jz4740-udc&id=e7519cf2143a5f1dd525230d2b3cc03e111848d7
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2013-10-09 20:36 <apelete> ah, I see, it's because musb_core seems to be calling musb_platform_init() during the probe. from musb_core.c:
2013-10-09 20:36 <apelete> /* The musb_platform_init() call:
2013-10-09 20:36 <apelete>  *   - sets the musb->isr
2013-10-09 20:36 <apelete>  *   - adjusts musb->mregs
2013-10-09 20:36 <apelete>  *   - may initialize an integrated tranceiver
2013-10-09 20:36 <apelete>  *   - initializes musb->xceiv, usually by otg_get_phy()
2013-10-09 20:36 <apelete>  *   - stops powering VBUS
2013-10-09 20:36 <apelete>  *
2013-10-09 20:36 <apelete>  * There are various transceiver configurations.  Blackfin,
2013-10-09 20:36 <apelete>  * DaVinci, TUSB60x0, and others integrate them.  OMAP3 uses
2013-10-09 20:36 <apelete>  * external/discrete ones in various flavors (twl4030 family,
2013-10-09 20:37 <apelete>  * isp1504, non-OTG, etc) mostly hooking up through ULPI.
2013-10-09 20:37 <apelete>  */
2013-10-09 20:37 <apelete> so I guess I need to complete the init function now
2013-10-09 20:41 <apelete> larsc mth: don't really know what should go into init though.
2013-10-09 20:43 <apelete>  I think: clock setting is a sure bet, mregs is not needed according to what we discuss last night, don't know what to do about isr, transceiver should be ok now since I settled for nop transceiver, and don't know about vbus
2013-10-09 20:44 <apelete> s/discuss/discussed/
2013-10-09 20:44 <qi-bot> apelete meant: " I think: clock setting is a sure bet, mregs is not needed according to what we discussed last night, don't know what to do about isr, transceiver should be ok now since I settled for nop transceiver, and don't know about vbus"
2013-10-09 20:44 <apelete> larsc mth: any advice about all those ?
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2013-10-09 21:25 <mth> apelete: the isr is set in the jz4770 glue, but I don't really know what it does there; I left that code as it was
2013-10-09 21:28 <apelete> mth: do you think I could reuse that isr code it for jz4740 ?
2013-10-09 21:29 <mth> I have no idea
2013-10-09 21:29 <mth> it's probably worth reading it, but copy-paste may or may not work
2013-10-09 21:29 <mth> it would be useful to compare it to the interrupt handler of the old UDC driver
2013-10-09 21:34 <apelete> okay. I'm rebasing my work on top of jz-3.11 first (was on jz-3.9), will take a look at it then
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2013-10-09 23:40 <apelete> running musb work in progress glue layer on kernel 3.11 now -> http://paste.debian.net/54687/
2013-10-09 23:41 <apelete> and also rebased the changes on top of jz-3.11 -> http://seketeli.fr/git/~apelete/qi-kernel.git/log/?h=jz4740-musb