2013-10-06 00:00 there's also a rough overview in the project wiki: https://gitorious.org/anelok/pages/Home 2013-10-06 00:01 well, you know I always love to read (and comment on) new schematics, but I'm not git's greatest fan 2013-10-06 00:02 it works rather well :) 2013-10-06 00:03 and especially if you use it for reading ;-) 2013-10-06 00:03 but now the schematics are behind whatever ailment the qi-hw servers have this time :( 2013-10-06 00:09 size of device sounds a tad.. huge? 2013-10-06 00:11 about 3 x 8.5 x 1.5 cm. a but smaller than my samsung x830. 2013-10-06 00:13 the height is determined by battery and wheel. they'd on opposite sides. if i wanted them on the same side, the surface would have to grow 2013-10-06 00:13 the width is determined first by the display and then by the wheel. the wheel is already relatively small. 2013-10-06 00:14 the length is mainly determined by layout density. for prototyping, i want a DIY-able design, so density is low. 2013-10-06 00:16 but even with multilayer, BGA, and so on, there wouldn't be a LOT you could take away. maybe 1 cm, 2 cm if the rest is to be very crowded (wheel touching the display so it'll be hidden behind your fingers) 2013-10-06 00:24 mhm 2013-10-06 00:24 1.5cm for battery? 2013-10-06 00:24 can't you use CR2532? 2013-10-06 00:25 CR2032. that's 3.2 mm plus about 0.5 mm for clip and tolerance. then 1 mm plastic wall. 2013-10-06 00:25 above it is the PCB, 0.8 mm. on the PCB is the wheel, 5 mm. 2013-10-06 00:26 ooh 2013-10-06 00:26 so that's 5 + 0.8 + 3.2 + 0.5 + 1 mm in total 2013-10-06 00:26 hmm. 10.5 mm. lemme check :) 2013-10-06 00:26 2 walls 2013-10-06 00:27 ah yes, 10.4 mm. not 14 mm :) 2013-10-06 00:27 only one - the wheel goes to the surface 2013-10-06 00:28 so the battery area is so large it can't stay clear of wheel? 2013-10-06 00:30 the wheel is 22 mm, the battery 20 mm, the display 35 mm. you'll want a bit of space between display and wheel. and the antenna needs a bit of room as well, at least 5 mm. 2013-10-06 00:31 then add two double walls. so having it all on the same side would make it ... 88 mm plus the wheel-to-display space 2013-10-06 00:33 and then there's the power switch. as fat as the battery. 2013-10-06 00:33 err, when wheel and battery are different place then how will their ... I don't get it 2013-10-06 00:34 you can either put them side by side or one on top and one on the bottom 2013-10-06 00:35 you also have a display that goes on the same side as the wheel 2013-10-06 00:35 when 5mm wheel and 3.2mm battery add up to heght, then battery and wheel are stacked and I dunno why they would be 2013-10-06 00:35 correct. that way, i don't get a huge surface 2013-10-06 00:36 I thought you could place battery under display 2013-10-06 00:36 else, i'd have to make the device a fair bit longer. 2013-10-06 00:36 assuming that display is <5mm 2013-10-06 00:37 the display is quite thin, 1.6 mm 2013-10-06 00:37 needs clearance (at least for tolerance) above and below, and also the top plastic (it's too fragile to be exposed) 2013-10-06 00:38 hello 2013-10-06 00:38 I'm quite sure you know how to stack a ME. But it seems I can't imagine what it looks like 2013-10-06 00:39 so that's about 3 mm for the display. i also sneak a few components under it. they have about 2 mm maximum vertical room, preferably a little less 2013-10-06 00:39 hm. do you have a cad file? 2013-10-06 00:39 nothing complete yet 2013-10-06 00:39 maybe something simple like in openscad.. just to visualize 2013-10-06 00:39 pcercuei has quit [Quit: dodo] 2013-10-06 00:41 this is the pcb: http://www.almesberger.net/misc/anelok-overview.png 2013-10-06 00:41 top has, from left to right: antenna, display, a LED, wheel 2013-10-06 00:42 bottom has: inaccessible space under wheel, battery, switch, usb, uSD, keep-out area under antenna 2013-10-06 00:51 how do I programm the mcu without dfu? 2013-10-06 00:51 which mcu ? 2013-10-06 00:55 oh I thought there is some mcu on this :) 2013-10-06 00:55 ah :) 2013-10-06 00:55 hmm, I had placed the battery under display 2013-10-06 00:55 I.E. between display and PCB 2013-10-06 00:56 yes, there is. for the initial programming, via SWD (a reduced JTAG) on the large test points 2013-10-06 00:56 there's not enough room here :( 2013-10-06 00:56 also, access to the battery would be difficult 2013-10-06 00:56 slot-in 2013-10-06 00:57 messy :) 2013-10-06 00:57 nah 2013-10-06 00:57 and the stack would get too height, so the whell would have to be raised 2013-10-06 00:58 3.2mm plastic block with 20mm hole in it 2013-10-06 00:58 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-10-06 00:59 you need something on top that pushes the battery onto the pcb contact 2013-10-06 00:59 makes for nice slide to push in / pull out the battery, and same time creates a flush surface of case 2013-10-06 00:59 also, you'll hit the display connector 2013-10-06 00:59 sure, you use a steel spring for that rougjly M shaped 2013-10-06 01:00 i can't make such parts :( 2013-10-06 01:01 this isn't too hard. But you can find such thingies in other chinese 1$ toys 2013-10-06 01:01 my solution is some unpleasantly soft metal that wraps around the battery and that is supported by the cover. works okay-ish but would fail in a more demanding setup 2013-10-06 01:01 yes, all the toys have their very nice custom-made battery contacts 2013-10-06 01:02 and all you can find off the shelf are some monstrosities 2013-10-06 01:03 with the battery in that area, the layout would probably become unroutable for DIY 2013-10-06 01:03 even more easy: slot in pcb, solder a L shaped spring wire on long end to opposite side of PCB so that short arm of L goes thru the slot in PCB, then push outer small side of battery against it 2013-10-06 01:03 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-06 01:03 nah.. just use a readymade battery holder. developing your own without a team of seasoned me is madness imho 2013-10-06 01:05 roh: i think there's no choice. the ones you find at the usual shops are huge. but you don't have to design it from scratch, of course. 2013-10-06 01:05 make the hole in plastic block a pit (sorry missing the english term for "sackloch") and place some elastic foam or spring in it 2013-10-06 01:06 wpwrak: true. most are 'huge' 2013-10-06 01:06 a battery-sized slot would again make the design unroutable 2013-10-06 01:06 ive seen some quite flat ones too. intended for used standing up 2013-10-06 01:06 one could mount them on the edge of the pcb at one end, and use them as slot-in from the side 2013-10-06 01:06 huh, nobody said "battery sized" - just 2 mm to allow for some spring load 2013-10-06 01:07 when inserting battery 2013-10-06 01:07 roh: i experimented quite a bit with CR2032 holders. most of them need excessive force. they're basically designed to hold the battery without any mechanical support from the case. 2013-10-06 01:07 roh: and even the smallest ones eat a lot more space than just the battery plus a contact 2013-10-06 01:08 wpwrak: true. any way.. i guess thats the most difficult part to solve besides trhe display cover 2013-10-06 01:10 DocScrutinizer05: you mean a spring parallel to xy for the bottom and a spring parallel to xz for the top/side ? 2013-10-06 01:10 then you need a roof against which you can push ... 2013-10-06 01:10 yes, you could put it that way 2013-10-06 01:11 the roof would be the display, no? 2013-10-06 01:11 but I already improved Version1 2013-10-06 01:11 no mechanical load on that fragile little thing, please :) 2013-10-06 01:11 hehe.. now you know why i asked for a drawing ;) 2013-10-06 01:11 what kind of display is it? and where to get it cheap? 2013-10-06 01:12 i can answer both questions with one link :) http://www.buy-display.com/default/oled-display/1-3-inch-graphic-oled-display-module.html 2013-10-06 01:13 i see. 2013-10-06 01:13 it's pretty nice 2013-10-06 01:14 ack. bit pricy as a single part.. but thats displays ;) 2013-10-06 01:15 if you want brutally cheap, try this one: http://www.buy-display.com/default/oled-display-module.html 2013-10-06 01:15 alas, already getting a bit small 2013-10-06 01:15 btw why a CE2032? 2013-10-06 01:15 is that critter eating that much, or running that long? 2013-10-06 01:15 wouldn't a CR2016 do? 2013-10-06 01:16 well, display, rf, ... 2013-10-06 01:16 DocScrutinizer05: 2032 is nice. everybody has some around 2013-10-06 01:16 i calculate a battery life of about two months if used a few minutes per day 2013-10-06 01:16 that RF stuff is still quite mystery to me 2013-10-06 01:16 and yes, 2032 has good availability 2013-10-06 01:16 hm, 2016 as well 2013-10-06 01:16 MUCH less than 2032 2013-10-06 01:18 LOL, my CR2016 suddenly started moving around, that jumping up into the air 2013-10-06 01:18 it hates the truth ;-) 2013-10-06 01:19 maybe it's related to keith alexander, head of NSA, these days very busy lying to congress :) 2013-10-06 01:20 http://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/20131006_001.jpg 2013-10-06 01:20 dos1 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-10-06 01:21 s/taht/then/ 2013-10-06 01:21 hm. what is about putting the whole thing into a usb-stick case and using a tiny lipo pack? 2013-10-06 01:22 so.. basically no removable parts, and use it with a usb-A male to usb-A female cable or plug it in directly 2013-10-06 01:22 naw, rechargeable batteries become a replacement problem after a few years 2013-10-06 01:23 wpwrak: one-time use is even worse 2013-10-06 01:23 if you don't want that problem on your hands you need to pick a very common battery, and these are all large 2013-10-06 01:23 make the case with screws and piggypack on some common size 2013-10-06 01:24 i mean that it gets hard to find a replacement. i don't expect cr2032 to vanish anytime soon :) 2013-10-06 01:24 ive seen some quite tiny lipo-packs complete with protection circuit and wires 2013-10-06 01:24 soldering to replace is not nice 2013-10-06 01:25 dos1 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-06 01:25 then plug it 2013-10-06 01:25 like all the usb-mp3-stick-style players do too 2013-10-06 01:25 and you get more problems, e.g., shipping 2013-10-06 01:26 which gives me another idea :-D MAGNET 2013-10-06 01:26 dynamo ? :) 2013-10-06 01:26 magnets make GREAD battery contacts for a CR2023 2013-10-06 01:26 GREAT even 2013-10-06 01:27 is cr2032 magnetic ? 2013-10-06 01:27 http://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/20131006_001.jpg ff 2013-10-06 01:27 dos11 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-06 01:27 dos1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-10-06 01:27 that's a magnet ? 2013-10-06 01:28 but a magnet would add height, too ... 2013-10-06 01:29 naw, the only other place where the battey could reasonably go would be between display and wheel. no crazy vertical stacking. 2013-10-06 01:29 http://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/20130717_003.jpg 2013-10-06 01:29 embedd into PCB! 2013-10-06 01:29 ... making the layout unroutable :) 2013-10-06 01:30 ultra-thin monolith on "Oe" ? 2013-10-06 01:32 in any case, even if you do all the crazy battery stacking, you won't will all that much in the end 2013-10-06 01:33 dos11 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-10-06 01:33 http://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/20131006_005.jpg ff - I know there exist even smaller magnets 2013-10-06 01:33 that's a really strange way of mounting a battery 2013-10-06 01:33 there's only about 2.2 mm between pcb and display. so you need to add some 1.5 mm for battery and top contact or whatever 2013-10-06 01:34 and you still have components on the bottom. so that's another 1.2 mm to 1.5 mm 2013-10-06 01:34 so in the end you may save only about 1 mm 2013-10-06 01:34 2.2mm seems just fine for a CR2016 with magnet and side-spring 2013-10-06 01:35 so in the end you could even use the blanks PCB lower side as outside of your case 2013-10-06 01:36 when you manage to move those other components between PCB and display as well 2013-10-06 01:36 cr2016 is too exotic. and you'd then have to swap batteries every three weeks or so. 2013-10-06 01:36 ohwell 2013-10-06 01:37 dunno what's regarded exotic in your place 2013-10-06 01:37 and if that space is taken up by the battery, the other components won't feel too well there :) 2013-10-06 01:37 here you get them in supermarket 2013-10-06 01:38 next to Cr20232 and AAA 2013-10-06 01:38 OK, a bit pricey 2013-10-06 01:38 like 2 EUR per battery 2013-10-06 01:39 CR2032* 2013-10-06 01:39 if you buy one at a time, at your pharmacy ;-) 2013-10-06 01:39 hm. for 4 you get a lipo cell, for another 2 the charger-parts 2013-10-06 01:40 both should be about USD 0.2 apiece if you buy 5 or 10 2013-10-06 01:40 so, < 1 USD battery cost per year with CR2032 2013-10-06 01:41 4 batteries or 4 EUR ? 2013-10-06 01:41 dos11 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-06 01:41 http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/cr2032.pdf 240mAh http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/cr2016.pdf 90mah 2013-10-06 01:41 yup 2013-10-06 01:41 see why cr2016 is not such a nice idea ? :) 2013-10-06 01:42 nope, exactly I don't see it 2013-10-06 01:42 it's more than 1/3 of a 2032 2013-10-06 01:42 same price as 2032 but less than half the capacity 2013-10-06 01:42 negligible 2013-10-06 01:42 actually, 2016 is slightly more expensive 2013-10-06 01:43 negligible capacity, yes :) 2013-10-06 01:43 you wouldn't need a holder with cr2016 but a belt, like for a machine gun ;-) 2013-10-06 01:43 then your design is faulty, to begin with 2013-10-06 01:44 ;-) 2013-10-06 01:44 too energy hungry 2013-10-06 01:44 I mean, it does... nuttin, 99.99999% of the time 2013-10-06 01:45 yes, the idle time doesn't matter. i expect just a few uA 2013-10-06 01:45 nah, OLED are greedy, no matter what that site tells 2013-10-06 01:45 dos11 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-10-06 01:45 creating light isn't for free 2013-10-06 01:46 about 10 mA for 20% pixels on. less than anything else. 2013-10-06 01:46 besides, a traditional LCD would be much thicker ;-) 2013-10-06 01:46 exactly 2013-10-06 01:47 e-paper 2013-10-06 01:47 we've been through that. you really should read the list :) epaper is about the worst possible choice for a password safe ... 2013-10-06 01:47 though, there been that "electronic tag" thingie. I can't recall what it been 2013-10-06 01:47 hmm.. some holder like this could work: https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10592 2013-10-06 01:47 well, they also go under "e-paper" 2013-10-06 01:48 the other contact is the pcb itself 2013-10-06 01:48 roh: HUGE 2013-10-06 01:48 usually one does hasl finish then, adding gold 2013-10-06 01:48 roh: and you haven't seen the insertion force of these things :) 2013-10-06 01:48 roh: I already suggested that, he doesn't like it 2013-10-06 01:48 wpwrak: well.. smaller than the ones with a plastic holding the other pin 2013-10-06 01:49 roh: yes, a medium-sized dinosaur is smaller than a whale ... ;-) 2013-10-06 01:49 how's insertion force a problem? 2013-10-06 01:49 DocScrutinizer05: you need a crowbar to get that battery out ... 2013-10-06 01:49 less insertion force means bad contact. 2013-10-06 01:49 usually not 2013-10-06 01:50 (whale > dino) 2013-10-06 01:50 DocScrutinizer05: i've experimented quite extensively with these holders. just trust me ;-) 2013-10-06 01:50 there is a reason for the one there. it doesnt fall out. so one calculates the minimum at rated current, and then ramps that up to whatever is needed to hold the weight of the battery on given spec gfoces. 2013-10-06 01:50 I know those holders. I always thought it quite assuring when battery sits tight 2013-10-06 01:50 roh: naw, they need all that pressure not for electrical contact but because they don't have a case 2013-10-06 01:51 there's some nice strong plastic around it ... 2013-10-06 01:51 ... unless it figures out how to quantum-tunnel though it, it really won't go anywhere else 2013-10-06 01:51 *shrug* 2013-10-06 01:52 well... https://www.sparkfun.com/products/731 ,) 2013-10-06 01:53 roh: the SMT ones also don't stick too well to the PCB (especially considering the enormous force). better use a through-hole version. 2013-10-06 01:53 wpwrak: I (still) don't really get your choice of OLED. don't LCDs eat hundreds of uAs instead of tens of mAs? 2013-10-06 01:53 wpwrak: ive heard about that.. but never had an issue on proper fr4 boards 2013-10-06 01:53 i guess the homemade ones delaminate more easily 2013-10-06 01:54 almost twice as fat as the cr2032 ;-) 2013-10-06 01:54 whitequark: it's the backlight that kills you ... 2013-10-06 01:54 OLED probably eats less than LCD with backlight, but do you really need that? 2013-10-06 01:55 and if you do: can't you add a button which turns on backlight? like they do on watches 2013-10-06 01:55 >>Awesome, it looks like a cartoon cat!<< LOL 2013-10-06 01:55 non-backlit lcds are often a pain to read. specially if you have something more complex than huge 7 segment digits 2013-10-06 01:55 wpwrak: dunno, I find non-backlit monochrome LCDs pretty readable. I may be biased though 2013-10-06 01:56 dot matrix 2013-10-06 01:56 another issue is that panel sizes go up when you move to this kind of display 2013-10-06 01:57 that is, for off the shelf parts 2013-10-06 01:57 w/h? 2013-10-06 01:57 and everyone seems to integrate a backlight 2013-10-06 01:57 mainly thickness, but also junk around the active area 2013-10-06 01:57 dang, I moved the N900 to the other room again, so no photo of my homematic CCU LCD display 2013-10-06 01:58 of course, LCD can be very think. but it seems that these are custom designs again. 2013-10-06 01:58 * whitequark looks at a nokia3310 display lying around 2013-10-06 01:58 err, very THIN 2013-10-06 01:59 OLED start to get exciting when I can *roll* then out of the device, to get a 10" screen 2013-10-06 02:00 rz2k has quit [] 2013-10-06 02:00 get a laser beamer ;-) 2013-10-06 02:00 meh 2013-10-06 02:00 TI blaze already *has*beamer integrated 2013-10-06 02:01 doesn't sound too good for standard usecase though 2013-10-06 02:02 it's more about idiots drooling over a 15" video projection at the wall, in an absolutely dark room 8maybe the videos that would be siutable for such usecase line up nicely with dark rooms) 2013-10-06 02:03 this one is 1.8mm thick 2013-10-06 02:03 dunno if you can source them 2013-10-06 02:03 whitequark: and probably even has backlight 2013-10-06 02:03 backlight = power-hungry 2013-10-06 02:03 DocScrutinizer05: nope, backlight was on the pcb 2013-10-06 02:03 ohwell 2013-10-06 02:04 LEDs mounted so they emit light in parallel with the PCB 2013-10-06 02:04 with oled, i can control the power drain by keeping as many pixels as possible dark 2013-10-06 02:04 with lcd it's all or nothing 2013-10-06 02:04 wpwrak: but really, how much of the time will you *need* (back)light? 2013-10-06 02:04 you have a freakin' big light right in front of you (computer display) at all times, for that matter 2013-10-06 02:05 or phone display, though that works somewhat worse 2013-10-06 02:05 depends on the display type. some need it all the time. some can work with ambient light, but have poor contrast 2013-10-06 02:05 http://www.micro-digital.net/micro/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/LCD.jpg 2013-10-06 02:05 that big light is more likely to blind you than do anything else ... 2013-10-06 02:06 the picture does it a favor, but contrast is usually pretty good on the monochrome ones 2013-10-06 02:06 the standard LCD like used in r0ket is ~3mm, *with* backlight 2013-10-06 02:06 these are the ones that you can't find in a reasonable size 2013-10-06 02:06 DocScrutinizer05: huh, r0ket is cool. like, really cool. thanks for the accidental heads-up 2013-10-06 02:06 I needed something like that a month ago 2013-10-06 02:07 dandon_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-06 02:07 ... actually, it is exactly what I need 2013-10-06 02:07 dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-10-06 02:07 dandon_ is now known as dandon 2013-10-06 02:08 http://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/20130804_005.jpg 2013-10-06 02:09 they do an awesome trick: using photoelectric voltage of a LED for ambient light sensor. Could almost be one of my kinky ideas 2013-10-06 02:10 "either let it emit light, or use it to detect light" AWESOME! 2013-10-06 02:11 dang, you probably could detect the own photon echo during power down phase of PWN operation ;-P 2013-10-06 02:12 nah, not really, for that they are a tad too slow 2013-10-06 02:12 flash the LED, then measure how long it takes until the light is reflected by the moon :) 2013-10-06 02:20 that could work, by timespan between saturation decay and echo coming in. But _only_ for the timespan 2013-10-06 02:21 do it enough times and you can nicely filter the data out of the noise ;-) 2013-10-06 02:21 though, a pulse of THAT energy will take quite a while to dissipate all the free electrons in the bandgap ;-P 2013-10-06 02:22 I actually think LEDs are max in the MHz range, for 10/90 2013-10-06 02:23 for the high-bandwidth glasfibre you need special LEDs, no? 2013-10-06 03:14 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-10-06 03:21 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-06 04:17 hmm, board is about the maximum size i can still tin-coat manually. much wider and i can't reach things properly 2013-10-06 04:45 caLico_jAcK has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-06 04:51 caLico_jAcK has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2013-10-06 05:36 via wires soldered. hope i got all of them - there's a lot 2013-10-06 06:05 now .. let's add some components .. 2013-10-06 06:59 blargh. transceiver clock output shorted. that was messy :( 2013-10-06 09:04 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-06 09:39 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-06 09:40 kilae has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-06 09:43 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-10-06 09:50 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-06 09:56 xiangfu has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-10-06 10:29 pcercuei has quit [Quit: brb] 2013-10-06 10:33 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-06 10:42 pcercuei has quit [Quit: brb] 2013-10-06 10:45 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-06 11:16 dos11 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-06 11:52 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-06 12:01 arossdotme has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-10-06 12:47 hmm, qi-hw servers still down :-( 2013-10-06 12:47 i wonder if the ghost of wolfspraul reads this ... 2013-10-06 13:36 dos11 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-10-06 13:38 let me pull out my ouija board, maybe I can reach him 2013-10-06 13:40 ip-over-ouija? 2013-10-06 13:49 viric_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-06 13:49 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-10-06 13:49 viric_ is now known as viric 2013-10-06 13:58 I'm only getting a "No route to ghost" error... 2013-10-06 14:03 did you configure a gateway to the spirit world? 2013-10-06 15:07 qi-bot has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-06 15:29 arossdotme has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-06 15:31 just a long roundtrip time, server is up again 2013-10-06 15:40 arossdotme has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-10-06 15:44 arossdotme has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-06 15:46 viric_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-06 15:47 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-10-06 15:47 viric_ is now known as viric 2013-10-06 16:00 whee, the ghost did read it ! :) thanks, ghost of wolfspraul ! 2013-10-06 16:01 DocScrutinizer05: now you can see all the goodies of anelok 2013-10-06 16:01 schematics: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/anelok-20131005.pdf 2013-10-06 16:02 layout: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/anelok-20131005.png 2013-10-06 16:02 a display and wheel prototype (slightly smaller than the latest design): http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/anelok-dui.ogv 2013-10-06 16:03 still image of it: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/dui-arrow.jpg 2013-10-06 16:04 a draft of the overall stacking: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/pwsafe/shape.pdf 2013-10-06 16:04 arossdotme has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-10-06 16:04 (that one has the wheel very close to the display. i've now increased that space by a few mm) 2013-10-06 16:05 drawing of current top view: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/top-xy.pdf 2013-10-06 16:06 rough block diagram: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/pwsafe/block.pdf 2013-10-06 16:07 and you'll like this: a little box that implements a USB y-cable: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/pwsafe/ybox.pdf 2013-10-06 16:08 and the whole discussion starts here: http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2013-September/010184.html 2013-10-06 16:08 but most of september was really about anelok: http://lists.en.qi-hardware.com/pipermail/discussion/2013-September/thread.html 2013-10-06 16:09 wpwrak: my psychic skills needs some work, it took some time to wake to spirit ;) 2013-10-06 16:11 larsc: it still worked impressively quickly :) 2013-10-06 16:12 garlp has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-06 16:12 Hi. My codepage is right? 2013-10-06 16:13 arossdotme has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-06 16:13 halloooo 2013-10-06 16:22 hmm, where's a klingon example in proper unicode when you need one to copy & paste ? 2013-10-06 16:23 (anelok) meanwhile, the key components (transceiver, MCU, memcard, usb, a few caps) are soldered. should be able to try SWD soon. 2013-10-06 16:23 kinda curious whether the mcu will be willing to talk ... 2013-10-06 16:25 mcu was relatively easy to solder. positioning is hard, as usual with QFN in a DIY process. transceicer had a mystery short between ground and clock out. memcard may have some footprint issues - the contacts don't seem to be quite where they should be. needs checking. 2013-10-06 16:25 usb looks intimidating (the shell covers the signals almost completely) but was surprisingly easy to solder. 2013-10-06 16:27 the size is that of a usb mem stick? 2013-10-06 16:27 garlp has quit [Quit: Miranda NG! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-ng.org/] 2013-10-06 16:28 garlp has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-06 16:28 hi. My codepage is right? 2013-10-06 16:29 there are probably some very large ones with roughly that size :) 2013-10-06 16:29 wpwrak: yea, I was thinking about those back from a few years ago 2013-10-06 16:30 I find it amazing how fast you were able to put this together 2013-10-06 16:30 hi from Russia 2013-10-06 16:31 hello 2013-10-06 16:32 larsc: my codepage is right? ok 2013-10-06 16:35 at least the ascii part of it 2013-10-06 16:36 it's about half the size of a PCMCIA card 2013-10-06 16:37 couldn't find any of my ancient (and huge) usb memory sticks. i remember one from sony that was particularly oversized. 2013-10-06 16:37 larsc: it's till too early to know whether i actually got it right ;) 2013-10-06 16:40 even for an almost working prototype it was still pretty fast 2013-10-06 17:09 dos11 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-06 17:17 dos11 is now known as dos1` 2013-10-06 17:17 dos1` is now known as dos1 2013-10-06 17:28 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-10-06 17:30 wpwrak: C20 and C22 look *very* strange 2013-10-06 17:32 if those are correct, I'd not really know why POWERED at B1:2 and why C23. I'd rempve POWERED then and make C23 0R 2013-10-06 17:33 or that at86rf232 is a really strange chip when it needs that circuit 2013-10-06 17:35 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-06 17:36 rz2k has quit [] 2013-10-06 17:37 well, they say it needs those DC blockers 2013-10-06 17:38 "POWERED" just tells kicad that this is a power input. otherwise, i'll get an ERC warning 2013-10-06 17:38 (power input for declaring the middle tap as GND) 2013-10-06 17:39 maybe i should make it passive. it looks inded a bit odd the way it is now. 2013-10-06 17:40 the baluns have rather conflicting descriptions of what should go there. some say "just ground it". that's where the "power in" comes from 2013-10-06 17:41 R9 what the heck? 2013-10-06 17:47 everybody loves R9 ;-) 2013-10-06 17:48 it's to supply the RTC. the basic ideas is to limit battery current such that the device can be in deep sleep (with RTC running) but can't do anything else 2013-10-06 17:49 especially that it can't turn on RF 2013-10-06 17:49 well, it could try to. but then the power supply would collapse. 2013-10-06 17:50 hmm, the bad think about these tiny components is that, when you divert your attention for a second, you have a hard time finding them again ... 2013-10-06 17:52 when you want to disable RF, switch off AT86Rf232 2013-10-06 17:53 R9 makes the whole circuit behave undefined 2013-10-06 17:54 arossdotme has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-10-06 17:55 the MCU is supposed to catch power dropping and shut things down 2013-10-06 17:56 that's not a stable design 2013-10-06 17:56 and the purpose of this is to protect against a rogue MCU 2013-10-06 17:57 yeah, i guess it may bounce around in power-on-reset 2013-10-06 17:57 there's no way for the circuit to detect state of the switch, except try to draw huge amount of current, in which case VDD drops and probably RTC doesn't work either. While it does NOT reliably stop RF since you got buffer Cs 2013-10-06 17:59 my idea is to set a high brown-out level and trigger on that. this code would shut down things very quickly, before reaching the low brown-out level 2013-10-06 17:59 the caps are way too small to feed RF for anything. so they actually help, buying us a little more time for the cleanup. 2013-10-06 17:59 the main cap there is C15 anyway 2013-10-06 18:02 can't you connect that switch to reset, for both the mcu and rf? 2013-10-06 18:02 yeah 2013-10-06 18:02 this is insane design 2013-10-06 18:03 why would the CPU work with "brownout" when it gone rogue regarding any more sane design? 2013-10-06 18:03 and duh, this MCU doesn't need a xtal for rtc?? 2013-10-06 18:04 and no separate power VDD pin for rtc? 2013-10-06 18:04 it has no separate power pin for RTC 2013-10-06 18:04 (unfortunately) 2013-10-06 18:04 hence that hack 2013-10-06 18:05 then see what larsc said 2013-10-06 18:06 (rogue) i don't expect it to work with brownout if it goes mad. all bets are off then. but i want to be sure that the system can't do anything "interesting" when the switch is in the off position 2013-10-06 18:06 FrankBlues has joined #qi-hardware 2013-10-06 18:06 holding everything in reset may be an option. need to see about that. 2013-10-06 18:06 then switch off the RF chip 2013-10-06 18:07 alas, the MCU does not define a reset state for the GPIOs. so they can be anything. i'm sure it makes perfect sense in some parallel universe ... 2013-10-06 18:08 properly switching off the RF chip would still require the MCU to cooperate 2013-10-06 18:08 but holding it in reset may be an option. need to check the current. 2013-10-06 18:11 kill the clock -> no more RF 2013-10-06 18:11 just a brainstorming idea, when reset doesn't work 2013-10-06 18:11 killing the clock means messing with the crystal 2013-10-06 18:12 yeah, sth like that 2013-10-06 18:12 well, i guess one could forcible ground it but ... 2013-10-06 18:12 but it does sound a bit like asking for trouble 2013-10-06 18:12 probbaly 2013-10-06 18:13 switching off VSYS not feasible? 2013-10-06 18:14 maybe only for one of EVDD DEVDD 2013-10-06 18:15 again, power through GPIOs 2013-10-06 18:15 I guess one is logic, the other analog? 2013-10-06 18:15 yes 2013-10-06 18:15 doesn't it define what happens when analog is unpowered? 2013-10-06 18:15 of course not :) 2013-10-06 18:16 :-S 2013-10-06 18:18 I'd go for pulling RF_nRST to GND. Can get detected by MCU by using PTC2 as input 2013-10-06 18:19 If you want or need that, you also can connect PTC2 to MCU nRESET via a R-C to give a pulse to nRESET when the switch gets closed 2013-10-06 18:19 ooops, no :-P 2013-10-06 18:19 hmm yes, that could be a possibility (forced reset) 2013-10-06 18:19 otherwise MCU resets itself 2013-10-06 18:19 heh :) 2013-10-06 18:19 needs a tiny bit more birdseed 2013-10-06 18:20 2 diodes or sth 2013-10-06 18:21 maybe only one 2013-10-06 18:21 * DocScrutinizer05 heads out, getting "breakfast" coffee 2013-10-06 18:22 i think the PTC bank is interrupt-capable, so detection shouldn't be a big deal 2013-10-06 18:22 I anyway *strongly* recommend _not_ to use that R9 "solution". Might work, when you're extremely lucky, but yuo never can completely evaluate and verify the circuit behaviour 2013-10-06 18:23 s/yuo/you/ 2013-10-06 18:23 DocScrutinizer05 meant: "I anyway *strongly* recommend _not_ to use that R9 "solution". Might work, when you're extremely lucky, but you never can completely evaluate and verify the circuit behaviour" 2013-10-06 18:23 and it would be for "cleanup" anyway (set GPIOs, stop expecting RF to work, etc.) 2013-10-06 18:23 yeah, it's a bit chancy 2013-10-06 18:24 need to see how much RF draws in reset. that's of course undocumented. 2013-10-06 18:25 SLP_TR (sleep mode) may or may not have an effect there, too 2013-10-06 18:29 in-circuit programmer is unhappy with what i've done :-( let's find out why ... 2013-10-06 18:30 FrankBlues has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-10-06 18:32 btw, there's another "chancy" mode: when removing the battery, the MCU needs to catch the imminent complete loss of power and bring down things, so that C15 can keep the RTC alive during the battery change 2013-10-06 18:32 will be fun to make this work :) 2013-10-06 18:32 rozzin has left #qi-hardware [#qi-hardware] 2013-10-06 18:36 forget it 2013-10-06 18:36 lock the battery lid with the slide switch SW2 2013-10-06 18:37 naw, switches are too much of a pain 2013-10-06 18:37 they're huge, expensive, and never quite fit 2013-10-06 18:38 if you can't do that, then get two Vbat+ contacts on the PCB, the detector one opening earlier than the main one 2013-10-06 18:38 interesting idea 2013-10-06 18:38 or a Reed or Hall or IR-proxy switch on your case, "intrusion detector" 2013-10-06 18:39 satellite surveillance ;-) 2013-10-06 18:39 for that your refusal to make battery slot-in actually is beneficial 2013-10-06 18:40 * wpwrak feels victorious :) 2013-10-06 18:41 adding a tiny magnet to the removable "lid" and a Reed switch on PCB next to it is dead simple 2013-10-06 18:41 you still didn't explain how that magic MCU keeps realtime without an XTAL 2013-10-06 18:42 `d 2013-10-06 18:43 it has a reasonably accurate RC 2013-10-06 18:43 DocScrutinizer05: built-in xtal 2013-10-06 18:43 nifty 2013-10-06 18:43 and we can calibrate it against the very precise xtal 2013-10-06 18:44 `d ? 2013-10-06 18:44