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2013-09-29 00:16 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: bin/authors: only include files that still exist (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/wernermisc/a2a7293
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2013-09-29 05:08 <whitequa1k> someone *really* wanted to learn something about wolfgang... "/qi-hardware/search?q=wolfspraul&page=100" :)
2013-09-29 06:58 <larsc> or only the dark secrets listed on the last pages
2013-09-29 07:02 <whitequa1k> it's in chronological order, not reverse chronological
2013-09-29 07:02 <whitequa1k> actually I should fix that, it makes zero sense
2013-09-29 07:12 <whitequa1k> fixed.
2013-09-29 07:13 <larsc> hm?
2013-09-29 07:17 <whitequa1k> well, dark secrets are supposed to be old, aren't they?
2013-09-29 07:18 <whitequa1k> and page 100 is recent events.
2013-09-29 07:19 <larsc> ah
2013-09-29 07:21 <kyak> what's so special on page 100 that one could learn about wolfgang?
2013-09-29 07:21 <kyak> whitequa1k: the links with page numbers overlap the text that was found (in firefox)
2013-09-29 07:22 <kyak> if there are a lot of pages (like in this case)
2013-09-29 07:22 <whitequa1k> kyak: yeah I know
2013-09-29 07:23 <whitequa1k> but I'm really bad with CSS
2013-09-29 07:23 <whitequa1k> the channel names also don't scroll... and it looks horrible on mobile devices overall
2013-09-29 07:25 <kyak> the channel list fits on my screen, luckily :)
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2013-09-29 18:43 <larsc> ah, HURD 0.5 was released, so only another 30 years until 1.0 ;)
2013-09-29 18:43 <ysionneau> ahah
2013-09-29 18:45 <viric> I hope this pulls some hackers in
2013-09-29 18:45 <ysionneau> is it really worth it? I don't know enough about HURD
2013-09-29 18:46 <ysionneau> Has it a lot of developers? Why so?
2013-09-29 18:50 <whitequark> I don't think so, not from a technical standpoint. It's a microkernel.
2013-09-29 18:56 <larsc> And Linux is a macro kernel, because so many people are working on it?
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2013-09-29 19:04 <whitequark> larsc: um, wat?
2013-09-29 19:04 <larsc> 'Has it a lot of developers?' 'No, it's a microkernel'
2013-09-29 19:05 <whitequark> 'is it really worth it?'
2013-09-29 19:05 <larsc> I know :)
2013-09-29 19:10 <larsc> I just thought that would be a funny definition
2013-09-29 19:10 <viric> :)
2013-09-29 19:10 <whitequark> perhaps from a bloat standpoint
2013-09-29 19:11 <viric> I don't know how much it is a projection of my hopes, but I like what I heard about Hurd
2013-09-29 19:12 <viric> And I dislike some of the linux pieces.
2013-09-29 19:12 <whitequark> what's those hurd parts?
2013-09-29 19:12 <viric> for example, how common it is in linux to run most processes as one user, with a single filesystem view;
2013-09-29 19:13 <viric> so any process can harm any other. Now there is USER_NS, containers, virtual machines, ...
2013-09-29 19:13 <viric> seccomp, apparmor, ...
2013-09-29 19:13 <viric> but all that is a hell to use.
2013-09-29 19:13 <larsc> I think android runs each app as a different user
2013-09-29 19:13 <viric> not to mention, many operations are allowed only to root.
2013-09-29 19:14 <whitequark> it's a question of wrapping it in a pretty gown
2013-09-29 19:14 <whitequark> lxc does it for you
2013-09-29 19:14 <viric> larsc: I do that with sudo for the web browser and some binary programs, ... but it's uncomfortable
2013-09-29 19:14 <whitequark> (root) capability system exists, but it's... less than stellar. to put it mildly.
2013-09-29 19:15 <whitequark> wasn't it that CAP_NET_ADMIN meant you could trivially elevate to root
2013-09-29 19:15 <viric> The per-process tweaks a user can touch are little more than 'ulimit'
2013-09-29 19:15 <larsc> I think capabilities in Linux are not the same as capabilities in the mircokernel sense
2013-09-29 19:16 <viric> well, I mean the hurd microkernel + userland pieces, allow users (not only root) to narrow what processes can do and see
2013-09-29 19:16 <larsc> http://lwn.net/Articles/566169/
2013-09-29 19:17 <viric> larsc: I want to limit what skype can do, or firefox. :)
2013-09-29 19:17 <larsc> meh, flight delayed
2013-09-29 19:18 <viric> any of those could "rm -Rf $HOME", in most common scenarios
2013-09-29 19:18 <viric> and cause harm
2013-09-29 19:18 <larsc> yep
2013-09-29 19:18 <larsc> or even worse
2013-09-29 19:18 <viric> yes, or worse
2013-09-29 19:18 <viric> so I don't think it's a good situation
2013-09-29 19:18 <larsc> no
2013-09-29 19:19 <viric> and I think hurd addresses some things.
2013-09-29 19:19 <larsc> this is why browser vendors have implemented their own sandboxing
2013-09-29 19:19 <larsc> a capability based system of course has the sandboxing build in
2013-09-29 19:19 <whitequark> chrome uses seccomp; hardly their own
2013-09-29 19:19 <viric> whitequark: and USER_NS
2013-09-29 19:20 <viric> web browser vendors play whatever they can in their field: the browser.
2013-09-29 19:20 <viric> they play in the browser league. But a whole OS solution should be available.
2013-09-29 19:20 <viric> some people run all in virtual machines :)
2013-09-29 19:21 <whitequark> that works surprisingly well. I used to do it with Xen.
2013-09-29 19:21 <whitequark> I dropped it because Xen kills ACPI S3, and it kind of kills the point of having a laptop
2013-09-29 19:22 <viric> it is not a solved problem in Linux
2013-09-29 19:22 <whitequark> also, no hardware acceleration
2013-09-29 19:22 <whitequark> ok, perhaps not well at all
2013-09-29 19:22 <viric> :)
2013-09-29 19:23 <viric> stallman talked about some recent Intel northbridge having an integrated computer to load firmware to
2013-09-29 19:23 <whitequark> start with your wifi firmware
2013-09-29 19:23 <whitequark> I bet it can become a pcie bus master
2013-09-29 19:23 <whitequark> actually, I know it can.
2013-09-29 19:24 <viric> :)
2013-09-29 19:24 <viric> that's a good reason to dislike blobs
2013-09-29 19:24 <larsc> whitequark: well seccomp-bpf was implemented by a google guy
2013-09-29 19:25 <larsc> viric: that's the Intel active management stuff
2013-09-29 19:25 <larsc> basically a second processor that runs some firmware that can tap into peripherals
2013-09-29 19:26 <viric> he talked about some intel cpus with 3g modems integrated
2013-09-29 19:26 <viric> too
2013-09-29 19:26 <viric> he wasn't very happy about intel
2013-09-29 19:26 <whitequark> I have a notebook with this stuff, Intel Anti-Theft or something
2013-09-29 19:26 <larsc> he is never very happy
2013-09-29 19:26 <whitequark> targeted at enterprise loss prevention
2013-09-29 19:26 <viric> whitequark: are you the thief?
2013-09-29 19:27 <viric> mh I didn't know how all this was named. thank you
2013-09-29 19:28 <ysionneau> 21:13 < larsc> I think android runs each app as a different user < indeed
2013-09-29 19:28 <larsc> http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/architecture-and-technology/intel-active-management-technology.html
2013-09-29 19:29 <viric> this way, your computer becomes something like a virtual machine with a debugger attached
2013-09-29 19:29 <whitequark> it's pretty sad, because intel is not exactly known for bug-free code
2013-09-29 19:29 <whitequark> this is a trove for some hacker group to feed on
2013-09-29 19:30 <ysionneau> 21:26 < larsc> he is never very happy < +1
2013-09-29 19:34 <larsc> meh, the laptop battery did hardly survive one hour :/
2013-09-29 19:40 <viric> are you doing a virtual travel from the place where you did the virtual talk?
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2013-09-29 20:58 <wpwrak> if rms was ever "very happy", i'd be rather concerned about the immediate collateral damage those drugs might do to his physical health
2013-09-29 20:58 <wpwrak> in fact, perhaps it's best to just call 911 in this case. tell them that "rms is very happy". that ought to qualify as a major emergency.
2013-09-29 21:00 <wpwrak> larsc: (battery) planned obolescence vs. lars, 1:0 :)
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2013-09-29 21:05 <ysionneau> ahah
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2013-09-29 22:30 <larsc> viric: did a real travel