2013-08-31 02:04 pcercuei_ has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-08-31 03:14 xiangfu_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 04:02 rz2k has quit [] 2013-08-31 04:12 rozzin has left #qi-hardware [#qi-hardware] 2013-08-31 04:21 rozzin has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 04:27 Textmode has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 05:11 gbraad has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-08-31 05:18 gbraad has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 06:13 xiangfu_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-08-31 06:21 xiangfu_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 07:05 cde_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 07:10 xiangfu has quit [Quit: leaving] 2013-08-31 07:11 cde has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-08-31 07:11 newcup has quit [*.net *.split] 2013-08-31 08:25 MistahDarcy has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 09:03 sanderr has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-08-31 09:21 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 09:29 FDCX_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 09:37 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-08-31 09:38 xiangfu_ has quit [Quit: leaving] 2013-08-31 09:39 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-08-31 09:43 seems quiet in here, so i'll drop in my question (already asked in openwrt) 2013-08-31 09:43 i want to attach an SPI device (it is a NRF24L01+ board) to my wndr3800. It seems there is no SPI port on this router though. Do you have any ideas how this could be done? 2013-08-31 09:43 one possibility would be to use some kind of arduino to talk to spi device and then translate it to netgear via rs232 2013-08-31 09:43 but i'd really like to avoid the arduino-in-the-middle approach and attach the device directly to my router 2013-08-31 09:45 yeah, i thought about atusb first.. But i don't feel that the software support is ready (sorry werner!). Also, i'm not quite sure how to attach atben to MSP430 on the other side 2013-08-31 09:45 kyak: bitbang it 2013-08-31 09:46 there's even a bitbang spi driver in linux, you just need to feed it some spare pins and rebuild the kernel 2013-08-31 09:46 spare gpios. 2013-08-31 09:46 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 09:46 whitequark: so, use gpios to emulate the spi? 2013-08-31 09:46 yes 2013-08-31 09:46 ok, this is a good idea 2013-08-31 09:46 it works surprisingly well... wrt54gl got something like half a megabit this way 2013-08-31 09:47 ah.. that's probably how the sd card mod works on wrt54gl 2013-08-31 09:48 kyak: you'd be surprised by how much works with atusb now :) 2013-08-31 09:48 kyak: exactly 2013-08-31 09:48 kyak: we have ping (even both ways !), RPL, mDNS, ... 2013-08-31 09:49 and yes, i'd use gpios as well. e.g., atben is all about bit-banging. works pretty well. 2013-08-31 09:49 whitequark: thanks for advice! unless there are other ideas, i will stick to that 2013-08-31 09:49 o/ 2013-08-31 09:49 wpwrak: how hard is it to make atusb work on vanilla 3.10.10? :) 2013-08-31 09:51 wpwrak: i might give it a try.. Also, how hard is it to attach atben to MSP430? I will have to re-write the atben driver? 2013-08-31 09:52 cde_ is now known as cde 2013-08-31 09:52 cde has quit [Changing host] 2013-08-31 09:52 cde has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 09:53 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 09:53 i'd recommend using my kernel: https://github.com/wpwrak/ben-wpan-linux 2013-08-31 09:54 attaching atben to a new chip isn't hard. well, depends on what protocol support you want. if your demands are simple, it's quite trivial 2013-08-31 09:54 i'd show you the code if projects wasn't down once again ... 2013-08-31 09:54 --) 2013-08-31 09:55 (my kernel) 3.11.0-rc1 but should be easy to upgrade 2013-08-31 09:55 i really just want to send a few bytes from remote sensor to my router 2013-08-31 09:55 yeah, if you don't care about proper ieee 802.15.4 framing or even 6lowpan, you can keep things VERY simple 2013-08-31 09:56 so no ping, mDNS, IPv6 or other fancy stuff :) 2013-08-31 09:56 i used that for my led stick ... which i'd show you, too, if downloads wasn't down as well ... 2013-08-31 09:57 the nanonote running linux for workgroups 2013-08-31 09:58 wpwrak: so it is not possible at the moment to just compile atusb as a module and use it with vanilla kernel? 2013-08-31 09:58 do i even need the kernel module for atusb if what i really want is just receiving some data? 2013-08-31 09:59 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-08-31 09:59 (module) it may be. but for "serious" use, you also want the 6lowpan fixes. you really really REALLY want them. badly :) 2013-08-31 09:59 and no, if you keep things that simple, you don't need to worry about the kernel 2013-08-31 10:00 a "five minutes hack" type user-space driver will do nicely. all the ingredients are under ben-wpan/tools/ 2013-08-31 10:00 many thanks, i'll have a look 2013-08-31 10:00 which i'd ... oh dear, i sound like a broken record 2013-08-31 10:01 you should probably mirror that to github when it comes back online 2013-08-31 10:01 where's the big bad wolf when we need him to growl at the servers ? 2013-08-31 10:01 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 10:01 yeah, i've been thinking of migrating all my qi-hw projects ... 2013-08-31 10:02 if it works, i might finally make real use of atusb/atben :) 2013-08-31 10:03 actually, i have an up to date local copy of the led stick as well ... 2013-08-31 10:05 https://github.com/wpwrak/antorcha 2013-08-31 10:05 and the mighty driver is here: https://github.com/wpwrak/antorcha/blob/master/fw/rf.c 2013-08-31 10:06 you need to provide some sort of spi driver. that system is avr-based, so the driver is pretty simple: https://github.com/wpwrak/antorcha/blob/master/fw/spi.c 2013-08-31 10:07 a gpio-based driver would look like this: https://github.com/frtos-wpan/freertos/blob/master/FreeRTOS/Demo/Shared/Contiki/spi-gpio.c 2013-08-31 10:08 (they're not compatible with each other (different SPI API), but it should serve to illustrate the idea) 2013-08-31 10:11 the rf driver keeps things simple and uses polling, so there are no interrupts to worry about 2013-08-31 10:11 ok, let me clarify.. once i have the spi over gpio driver working on my router, and i plug in the atusb - what's going to happen? Is fw/rf.c a part of the driver that would handle atusb? 2013-08-31 10:12 atusb needs a driver for atusb 2013-08-31 10:12 spi would be for atben 2013-08-31 10:12 so all the above is the "embedded" side 2013-08-31 10:12 ah ok 2013-08-31 10:12 for the pc, use atusb and a user-space tool like this one: https://github.com/wpwrak/antorcha/blob/master/tools/ant-cl/ant-cl.c 2013-08-31 10:13 it links against ben-wpan/tools/lib/ for the low-level functions (e.g., the libusb-based atusb driver) 2013-08-31 10:14 ok, thanks for the hints! 2013-08-31 10:16 is there a really simple example of gpio from userspace for the UBB? 2013-08-31 10:18 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 10:18 unclouded: ben-blinkenlights/bbl/ ? 2013-08-31 10:19 or. better, use ben-blinkenlights/libubb 2013-08-31 10:19 there is a libubb, which is even packaged for nanonote 2013-08-31 10:19 see for example ben-blinkenlights/libubb/ubb.h 2013-08-31 10:19 cheers! will look in to libubb 2013-08-31 10:24 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-08-31 10:26 pcercuei has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-08-31 10:28 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 10:30 is downloads.qi-hardware.com down at the moment? 2013-08-31 10:32 hah, i knew i didn't mention it often enough :) 2013-08-31 10:37 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-08-31 10:45 wpwrak: do you by chance have the pinout of atben at hand, while projects are down? 2013-08-31 10:45 i fear that the hardest part is going to be soldering wires to those tiny contacts :) 2013-08-31 10:48 Textmode has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 2013-08-31 10:49 i'd make an adapter 2013-08-31 10:49 i.e., a little PCB with an uSD holder 2013-08-31 10:50 good ide 2013-08-31 10:50 idea 2013-08-31 10:50 something like the board you can see here: https://raw.github.com/frtos-wpan/frtos-wpan/master/doc/evb/e407-odev.jpg 2013-08-31 10:50 (or simpler) 2013-08-31 10:51 and of course, you don't need any of the active components 2013-08-31 10:51 here's another interpretation of the same theme: https://raw.github.com/frtos-wpan/frtos-wpan/master/doc/evb/wm09-dev9.jpg 2013-08-31 10:52 i'll try to find one of those things 2013-08-31 10:53 for the pin assignment, see for example the first two columns in the comment at the beginning of https://github.com/frtos-wpan/freertos/blob/master/FreeRTOS/Demo/E407/platform.h 2013-08-31 10:54 (the rest is specific to that board) 2013-08-31 10:54 thanks! 2013-08-31 10:56 if you don't want to make your own pcb and can't find a readily available adapter board, you could also just buy an smt holder, glue it to something solid and not conductive (non-copper side of a pcb or such), then solder wires to the holder's pins 2013-08-31 10:57 of course, it's nicer if you make your own board. then you can have conveniently large pads, maybe a FET to switch power, a LED to check the polarity of power, etc. 2013-08-31 10:57 basically something like this, minus the connector: https://github.com/frtos-wpan/frtos-wpan/tree/master/dev9 2013-08-31 10:58 (or add a connector suitable for your board, if there's something useful to connect to) 2013-08-31 10:59 i don't think i'm ready to make my own boards yet 2013-08-31 11:00 i'll just break something with uSD slot :) 2013-08-31 11:00 or use a uSD-SD adapter 2013-08-31 11:00 it has bigger pads 2013-08-31 11:01 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 11:02 what about https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9419 ? 2013-08-31 11:02 (uSD-SD) that's also an option 2013-08-31 11:03 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 11:03 unclouded: yeah, that looks suitable 2013-08-31 11:03 here he his ! 2013-08-31 11:04 wolfspraul: something ate all the qi-hw servers: at least projects and downloads seem to be down. 2013-08-31 11:05 wpwrak: http://tinypic.com/r/a5dagg/5 2013-08-31 11:05 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 11:05 yeah 2013-08-31 11:06 qi-bot has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 11:11 that's what i did the other day: http://imgur.com/a/JaLo1 2013-08-31 11:12 a case from old tetris game as a battery holder for msp430 :) 2013-08-31 11:12 i swear, it took me an hour to solder three points 2013-08-31 11:12 this is like a dark craft for me 2013-08-31 11:13 i couldn't solder two wires together.. so i twisted them first, and only then was able to solder 2013-08-31 11:14 arossdotme has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 11:15 if you can't get your wires soldered, try sanding them, or put them in acid for a while 2013-08-31 11:15 I think vinegar works, so would citric 2013-08-31 11:16 porchaso0 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 11:16 an oxide layer forms over the metal, and it prevents wetting of the wire by solder 2013-08-31 11:16 so you can remove it either mechanically or chemically 2013-08-31 11:17 porchao has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-08-31 11:18 yea, that's exactly what happened, the tin just wouldn't stay on a wire (but rather fall down or stay on my soldering iron) 2013-08-31 11:20 whitequark: how to make the tin stick better to the pads of SD card? Should i use vinegar? 2013-08-31 11:24 kyak: I'd just take a screwdriver and scrub them for a while, to make some shiny traces on the pads 2013-08-31 11:26 also I'd use a thin teflon-coated stranded wire and pre-tin it. then, I'd place the wire over the pad and heat it with the iron (not the pad directly) 2013-08-31 11:26 this way I'd try to avoid melting the plastic parts 2013-08-31 11:27 it can be tricky and depend on the iron t°, but you can get quite good results with some practice 2013-08-31 11:28 hm, interesting 2013-08-31 11:33 hey thanks wolfspraul, servers seem up now 2013-08-31 11:42 arossdotme has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-08-31 11:48 whitequark: okay, thanks! 2013-08-31 11:54 kyak: those golden pads can be cleaned very well with a pencil rubber 2013-08-31 11:54 a pencil eraser 2013-08-31 11:54 it works very well 2013-08-31 11:54 (it depends on how do you have them layed out, whether you can use a pencil eraser :) 2013-08-31 11:55 but I mean pads not for soldering, but for contact. 2013-08-31 11:56 ^ 2013-08-31 11:56 viric: using a pencil rubber might be tricky, because there are plastic delimiters between those pads 2013-08-31 11:57 i'll try it though, thanks 2013-08-31 12:06 the sd card probably has gold-plated contacts. they don't oxidize :) 2013-08-31 12:07 whee ! full serv(er)ice has been restored :) thanks, wolfspraul !! 2013-08-31 12:09 kyak: your main enemy should be grease. you can dissolve it with alcohol. then just wipe it off with a paper towel. don't use overly aggressive chemicals, e.g., already acetone would attack the plastic 2013-08-31 12:10 copper wires, on the other hand, benefit greatly from tinning. if they're already tinned, they're good for a few years, but will eventually get hard to solder, too. there, abrasive techniques are suitable. 2013-08-31 12:11 one thing to keep in mind: if the amount of metal being soldered is large, a lot of heat gets sucked into it. so a thick cable can be quite a pain to solder. 2013-08-31 12:11 another thing to keep in mind is that you need flux. if you have a flux pen or such, that's ideal 2013-08-31 12:13 else, the solder (tin) usually also contains flux. to use it properly, you need to "feed" the solder to the solder joint. make sure both parts being soldered are heated. if one is "cold", the solder joint will be fragile (if you manage to get a solder joint at all) 2013-08-31 12:31 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 12:38 kyak: what do you use that red box for? 2013-08-31 12:49 one more blinky LED via UBB! http://amadeus.dist.ro/tmp/NanoNote-UBB.jpg 2013-08-31 12:49 libubb was easier to use than I expected. thanks for that 2013-08-31 12:51 whee ! :) congratulations ! 2013-08-31 12:55 despite of all your advice guys, i managed to fuck up the adapter 2013-08-31 12:55 it's in trash now 2013-08-31 12:56 viric: the red box is a case from an old game. It now contains msp430 launchpad board 2013-08-31 12:56 FDCX_ has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 2013-08-31 12:56 i needed it for batteries 2013-08-31 12:56 that needs talent ;) how did you do it ? 2013-08-31 12:57 what do you use the board for? 2013-08-31 12:57 wpwrak: i soldered the first contact quite easily and good, and thought it would be an easy walk. When i finished soldering all 6 contacts, two of them immediately fall off, and then other two fall off as i touched them a little bit 2013-08-31 12:58 then some tin was left on the pads, and that was bad 2013-08-31 12:59 i had to heat it, and the plastic melted a bit.. i also had to use more tin, and the whole thing became messy 2013-08-31 12:59 a then got angry and ripped off the wires and crashed the adapter 2013-08-31 13:00 viric: the plan is to attach a sensor to the board and make the reading available in my home network 2013-08-31 13:02 for god sake, i'll just buy the breakout board (http://www.ebay.com/itm/LinkSprite-Breakout-Board-for-microSD-Transflash-/271102000183?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f1ef03c37) - and avoid solderinb 2013-08-31 13:03 'make the reading available' What does that mean? 2013-08-31 13:03 I still don't get it, sorry :) 2013-08-31 13:04 hmm, if tin is on the pads, that's usually a good start. you can actually do that: pre-tin the pads as well. then you only need to make tin join tin, which is easy 2013-08-31 13:04 but yes, soldering such an adapter ought to be tricky because you have not very heat-tolerant plastic there 2013-08-31 13:04 using flux makes things also easier 2013-08-31 13:05 i was just about to suggest that ;-) 2013-08-31 13:05 most soldering problems can be solved with: 1) more flux, 2) more heat, 3) less solder. (note: not all may apply at the same time) 2013-08-31 13:06 4) loud cursing ;) 2013-08-31 13:06 viric: i mean, sending sensor readings (indication) to my router/server to visualize it 2013-08-31 13:07 so i need flux then 2013-08-31 13:07 i only had tin and colophony 2013-08-31 13:07 ironically, it's sometimes easy to overheat things if you use too little heat: if the soldering iron is at a temperature that is barely sufficient, you have to heat the contact for a long time before it is hot enough. that means that the heat has a lot of time to flow into adjacent things, traces, chips, PCB, plastic, and possibly do damage there. 2013-08-31 13:08 in such cases, you're much better off setting the iron to a high temperature and going in quickly 2013-08-31 13:08 ahh 2013-08-31 13:08 I never understood how flux works 2013-08-31 13:08 wpwrak: yes, this happens. well pointed 2013-08-31 13:08 i wonder if there are soldering courses.. i might as well take a couple of lessons 2013-08-31 13:09 flux does several things: 1) it's an acid (i think) that removes oxides. 2) it reduces the surface tension of the tin. 2013-08-31 13:10 yes, the tin always want to be a ball and doesn't want to stick 2013-08-31 13:10 btw, I've a device with a broken ethernet RX 2013-08-31 13:10 TX works fine 2013-08-31 13:10 I changed the ethernet filter (the coils), and it still does the same. 2013-08-31 13:10 viric: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flux_(metallurgy) 2013-08-31 13:10 porchao has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 13:11 any guess from your wisdom? 2013-08-31 13:11 wpwrak: but doesn't flux make it more difficult to heat? evaporating 2013-08-31 13:11 kyak: that can happen because the tin 'ball' surface can get dirty, or with oxide. all oxide goes to the surface. 2013-08-31 13:11 then the 'ball' surface doesn't stick anywhere. 2013-08-31 13:11 that's why it can be better to drop that ball away, and start again with more tin 2013-08-31 13:11 although likely your tin source has some oxide, so flux will really help 2013-08-31 13:12 porchaso0 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-08-31 13:12 pcercuei has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-08-31 13:13 кислота есть окисление (кислорота). трудно. 2013-08-31 13:13 kyak: you get balls if 1) the contact(s) is/are not hot enough -> make sure the iron touches the/both contact(s). put a small drop of tin on the tip of the iron to ease the thermal transfer. of the tip is "dry", it's almost impossible to transfer heat with it. 2) if contact(s) is/are covered by oxides. -> clean and/or use flux 3) if the surface tension is too high -> add flux 2013-08-31 13:14 viric: (drop the ball) yeah, that's what i meant with "less solder". you put it more clearly :) 2013-08-31 13:14 sounds like flux can fix lots of things :) but it probably won't fix the curvature of my hands 2013-08-31 13:14 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 13:14 cъедает 2013-08-31 13:14 wpwrak: what you call surface tension, isn't it *oxid* over the hot tin ball? 2013-08-31 13:15 basically, if you have a problem spot, don't try to force it for too long. that will only cause more problems (e.g., at some point, plastics will melt and traces will separate from the board) 2013-08-31 13:15 I think that the hotter tin or any metal is, the quicker it oxides 2013-08-31 13:16 wpwrak: can you have a look if this adapter would work? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Breakout-Board-for-microSD-Transflash-/120966864747?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c2a2fdf6b I only see 7 pins, no DAT2 and DAT3. No even sure where CMD and CLK are 2013-08-31 13:16 better to clean up, remove excess solder (e.g., with a soldering wick or by just scooping it up with the soldering iron), maybe wash off burnt flux (with alcohol), then try again from a clean state 2013-08-31 13:17 'make clean' 2013-08-31 13:17 viric: (surface tension) surface tension is what makes liquids form balls. also works with water. that's why we have rain and not just fog :) 2013-08-31 13:17 aye ;-) 2013-08-31 13:17 another trick to get less oxide on the solder tip, is to leave tin on it when you unplug it from power. then tin will rust, not the tip. 2013-08-31 13:17 wpwrak: I know, but why the ball doesn't melt with anything else... it can be because it has oxid around it 2013-08-31 13:18 usually it's the "anything else" that has the oxide 2013-08-31 13:18 ok 2013-08-31 13:18 In my picture, hot tin also gets oxided, if hot for long. 2013-08-31 13:18 be careful of oxidising flux too 2013-08-31 13:19 be careful of not lighting alcohol too. 2013-08-31 13:19 melting the ball should pretty much eliminate any contaminations of the tin. i mean, they may still be there, but a liquid mixes in three dimensions while surface contaminations/oxides are very thin. so they just disappear in the drop. 2013-08-31 13:19 wpwrak: ok 2013-08-31 13:20 not sure about tin oxidation. what does happen, though, is that all the flux in your tin evaporates. and then you'll have a bitch of a time doing anything with it. that's one of the reasons why "old" tin balls are better removed. 2013-08-31 13:21 you could still "make them work" by adding more flux, but you'll be working with an unfavourable volume mixture then, making things only harder 2013-08-31 13:21 cde: there we come to the point of cleaning up afterwards ;-) 2013-08-31 13:21 I agree 2013-08-31 13:21 then there is the Pb too. All is easier with Pb 2013-08-31 13:22 (in the tin mixture) 2013-08-31 13:22 flux remains aggressive also when cold, just less so than when hot. so it should be removed after soldering is done. else, it may eat into traces, pins, etc., and eventually destroy the circuit. 2013-08-31 13:23 свинец 2013-08-31 13:23 also, flux can be a weak conductor, especially when there's a bit of humidity. conductive enough to, say, defeat a weak pull-up on a reset line ... 2013-08-31 13:24 wpwrak: ah really? removed with alcohol? 2013-08-31 13:24 wpwrak: in fact I remember you wrote something with LaTeX about soldering and more. 2013-08-31 13:24 or was it aboud making circuit boards at home? 2013-08-31 13:25 the cleaning method depends a bit on the type of flux. there are special solvents for flux that work quite well. you can also use hot water and alcohol, applied repeatedly. or take the easy approach and get an ultrasound bath. that removes all that dirt remarkably well. 2013-08-31 13:25 making circuits at home. pcb, soldering, even testing 2013-08-31 13:26 it's a bit dated, though. i now do things a bit differently 2013-08-31 13:26 ok 2013-08-31 13:26 it was a very good idea to write a document about that 2013-08-31 13:27 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-08-31 13:27 pcercuei has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-08-31 13:30 this is the description: http://www.almesberger.net/misc/led-toy/ledtoy-building-0pre9.pdf 2013-08-31 13:31 now i: 1) use a different acid (HCl + H2O2 - cheaper, cleaner, quicker, easier. drawback: releases Cl2, so don't store it near metal) 2013-08-31 13:32 2) don't "bathe" contacts in solder, especially not SSOP or such. rather, i "paint" the solder over pin and pad. that's usually enough and is a lot quicker and safer. 2013-08-31 13:33 the approach with solder wick and such is now reserved for problem spots. 2013-08-31 13:33 what happens with metal? 2013-08-31 13:33 it corrodes. FAST ;-) 2013-08-31 13:35 not fast enough that you could watch, but if you, say, keep something that releases chloride in an enclosed space, let's say a storage cabinet, you may find after maybe half a year that the metal hinges of that cabinet have been largely converted to rust 2013-08-31 13:36 e.g., i kept a bottle of HCl (muriatic acid) under the kitchen sink. small quantities of Cl escaped. now the hinges don't look so pretty (they still work, though) ... and the HCl has now been banished to a box on the terrace 2013-08-31 13:39 i also have an improved method for aligning the transfer paper with the pcb, but that's mainly needed because i now cut and drill (with a CNC mill) my boards before etching 2013-08-31 13:40 the improved alignment works by doing one side at a time. so instead of 1) rough cut of board, 2) transfer toner, 3) etch both sides, 4) fine cut board, it's now 2013-08-31 13:40 1) precision-cut board, 2) transfer toner, 3) etch, and optionally: 4) transfer toner to the other side, 5) etch other side. 2013-08-31 13:41 e.g., for things like atben and atusb, i uses that, because things have fairly tight tolerances 2013-08-31 13:42 board with larger components still allow both sides to be done at the same time. well, unless i have a day of dual left-handedness, in which case i'd fall back to doing them one at a time 2013-08-31 13:46 and i can only recommend the purchase of an ultrasonic cleaner. they're not every expensive, the cheap chinese ones are around USD 100 (plus taxes etc.). the general rule is that the lower the power/volume ratio, the better. and volume doesn't have to be large - just enough room for a pcb. 2013-08-31 13:47 low power is better because there's a risk of hitting a resonant frequency, especially in a bonding wire. the less power, the less risk of that leading to damage. 2013-08-31 13:48 the "professional" models for electronics cleaning have a variable frequency (sweep) to avoid that sort of problem, but that makes them more expensive 2013-08-31 13:49 ultrasonic cleaners are often used for dental cleaning and for fuel injectors. so that's where you find the mass-market variants. 2013-08-31 13:58 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-08-31 13:59 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 14:11 newcup has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 14:15 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 14:20 wpwrak: can you have a look if this adapter would work? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Breakout-Board-for-microSD-Transflash-/120966864747?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c2a2fdf6b I only see 7 pins, no DAT2 and DAT3. No even sure where CMD and CLK are 2013-08-31 14:21 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-08-31 14:26 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-08-31 14:41 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 14:42 porchaso0 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 14:44 porchao has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-08-31 14:46 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-08-31 14:50 kyak: looks suspicious. only 7 instead of 8 contacts, and one may just be the card detect switch, so you miss 6 signals. 2013-08-31 14:50 better use this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/MicroSD-Micro-SD-MSD-Card-Breakout-Board/111078236563?rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D261%26meid%3D958576211999441019%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D1088%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D120966864747%26 2013-08-31 14:51 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 14:58 viric has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 2013-08-31 15:00 FDCX_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 15:02 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 15:06 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 15:23 FDCX_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-08-31 15:39 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-08-31 15:50 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 15:52 wej has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 15:58 wej has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-08-31 15:58 wpwrak: requires soldering, but thanks :) 2013-08-31 15:58 the verb 'breakout', exactly... what does it mean? 2013-08-31 16:04 kyak: you need to overcome your fear :-) 2013-08-31 16:05 viric: in this context, basically "branch out". e.g., you branch out (otherwise inaccessible) signal paths of a circuit 2013-08-31 16:08 ahh 2013-08-31 16:09 'break' sounded dangerous to me 2013-08-31 16:12 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-08-31 16:14 breakout boards sometimes refer to as terminal boards 2013-08-31 16:21 and 'launchpad'? what is that launchpad? 2013-08-31 16:22 is it just a proper name of a board? 2013-08-31 16:23 there are several launchpads by TI.. the one i'm referring to is MSP430 LaunchPad, see http://www.ti.com/ww/en/launchpad/overview_head.html 2013-08-31 16:26 launchpad is the area from which you launch a rocket 2013-08-31 16:27 ok, a product naem 2013-08-31 16:27 name 2013-08-31 16:27 "high quanlity" search query on ebay reveals quite a few results! :) 2013-08-31 16:28 in pre-technological times, the poetically inclined may have used "fount", "fountain", "source", "dawn", etc. 2013-08-31 16:28 ahh 2013-08-31 16:29 kyak: as a general rule, the more attributes in the name, the less likely it has any of them :) 2013-08-31 16:30 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-AMTECH-Soldering-Flux-Paste-NC-559-ASM-UV-TPF-10CC-USA-Welcome-/331006458141?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d1185b91d <- will this flux be fine? 2013-08-31 16:31 (this one has "USA Welcome" in it's name, wtf) --) 2013-08-31 16:31 that also works for countries. e.g., i'd stay away from anything that calls itself a "democratic people's republic" or similar 2013-08-31 16:32 (flux) no clue :) 2013-08-31 16:33 i guess flux is a flux, so i'll just get the first cheapest 2013-08-31 16:34 normal attributes are: "rosin", "water soluble", "no clean" 2013-08-31 16:35 and no, not all fluxes are created equal 2013-08-31 16:35 kyak: why do you buy that through internet? 2013-08-31 16:35 rosin is resin, the sticky stuff that comes out of trees 2013-08-31 16:37 it's a) good for surface tension/cleaning, b) good for "sticking" SMT components to their pads, c) messy to work with, d) a nightmare to clean. 2013-08-31 16:37 viric: cause i'm going to buy other stuff anyway.. like microsd adapter, and probably that wireless board as well (2 pcs cost 2$, it's nothing) 2013-08-31 16:37 some wires maybe, and sensors 2013-08-31 16:38 ok 2013-08-31 16:38 a wireless board for $2? 2013-08-31 16:38 water soluble is: a) good for surface tension/cleaning, b) borderline for "sticking", c) only a little messy, d) cleanable with some effort (repeated water/alcohol sessions, specialized remover (solvent), or just use an ultrasonic cleaner) 2013-08-31 16:39 viric: http://www.ebay.com/itm/400560564692 2013-08-31 16:40 ah, not wifi 2013-08-31 16:40 nope :) 2013-08-31 16:40 "no clean" is, at least the one i have: a) poor as a flux (didn't analyze the problems in depth, but soldering in noticeable harder with it than with the others), b) useless for "sticking", c) almost imperceptible, d) nominally doesn't require cleaning. if you want to clean up, the process would be the same as for "water soluble". 2013-08-31 16:41 wpwrak: is it required to clean up the flux? 2013-08-31 16:41 i normally use "water soluble". btw, the name refers to cleaning with hot pressurized water. you can't just wash the flux off with tap water. 2013-08-31 16:42 for rosin an water soluble, it's strongly advised 2013-08-31 16:42 i translate "use "no clean 2013-08-31 16:42 i translate "use "no clean" for home" 2013-08-31 16:43 where do i get an ultrasonic cleaner or hot pressurized water at home?... 2013-08-31 16:44 besides, if your board is complex, burnt flux makes it hard to see small details, so you want to clean the board from time to time even while making it. e.g., once after tinning, then after soldering (before testing), and a last time after you've debugged it. 2013-08-31 16:44 ebay -> ultrasonic cleaner :) 2013-08-31 16:45 hot pressurized water: you don't ;-) your dishwasher would have how water but only mildly pressurized, but it's also full of salts that would have a feast with your fragile circuit 2013-08-31 16:46 "no clean" has the worst soldering performance. at least the one i have. (i mention this because the soldering performance is really bad) 2013-08-31 16:46 gbraad has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 2013-08-31 16:47 nah, i'm not getting an ultrasonic cleaner just to clean up some soldering joints i make once a year.. Besides, there were no ultrasonic cleaners 30 years, people somehow managed to solder? 2013-08-31 16:47 the others are good. but rosin (that's your colophony) is messy 2013-08-31 16:47 wait a second 2013-08-31 16:47 colophony is a flux? 2013-08-31 16:47 gbraad has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 16:48 i described it already twice: rinse under hot water while brushing, then apply alcohol, rinse again, etc., until it's clean enough for your taste. you can use a flux remover to accelerate the process 2013-08-31 16:48 if it is, how do i use it? i just put a soldering tip there every now and then, but i don't really know why 2013-08-31 16:48 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosin 2013-08-31 16:49 weellll .... in what form does it come ? 2013-08-31 16:50 flux can be liquid, a gel, like shoe cream, etc. 2013-08-31 16:50 http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BB:%D0%9A%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%84%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C_%D0%B4%D0%BB%D1%8F_%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BF%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%B8.jpg 2013-08-31 16:50 this form :) 2013-08-31 16:50 cristalline ? 2013-08-31 16:51 wow. didn't know it could do that ;-) 2013-08-31 16:51 yes, it is 2013-08-31 16:51 i use a flux pen. that's like a felt pen / marker and dispenses liquid flux 2013-08-31 16:51 it starts boiling when i put tip in there 2013-08-31 16:51 and evaporates 2013-08-31 16:51 you can also use a gel. a bit more messy because it contains more solids. 2013-08-31 16:52 you want to be able to apply the flux to the parts you're about to solder, before soldering 2013-08-31 16:52 this probably explains why the first joint went so well 2013-08-31 16:52 i applied rosin there, because i was waiting for soldering iron to heat and was bored 2013-08-31 16:53 so i was sticking it into the rosin, since it has much lower melting temperature 2013-08-31 16:54 you want something like this: http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?vendor=0&keywords=CW8300 2013-08-31 16:54 or this: http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?vendor=0&keywords=SMD4300TF10 2013-08-31 16:55 (first joint) mystery solved :) 2013-08-31 16:55 cause and effect still prevail ;-) 2013-08-31 16:56 i will get myself another uSD-SD adapter 2013-08-31 16:56 and relaxants 2013-08-31 16:57 there is tin which already has colophony inside. Is it good? 2013-08-31 16:58 (this is not my case, but i know such thing exists) 2013-08-31 16:59 it helps. but it's better if you can add flux independently. 2013-08-31 17:00 to use tin with flux inside, you have to a) joint the two parts, b) heat them (both), c) feed the solder 2013-08-31 17:00 s/joint/join/ 2013-08-31 17:00 wpwrak meant: "to use tin with flux inside, you have to a) join the two parts, b) heat them (both), c) feed the solder" 2013-08-31 17:01 that is, to use tin with flux inside, without using separate flux 2013-08-31 17:01 ok.. 2013-08-31 17:02 if you have separate flux, it matters much less whether your solder also contains flux. though i'm a bit surprised you can actually easily find solder that has none ;-) 2013-08-31 17:03 somehow i found it :) 2013-08-31 17:04 if you move towards SMT, feeding the solder to the hot joint becomes impractical because you need only a tiny amount of solder. so you put a small drop of solder on the tip of the iron and apply that to the joint. but for this to work, the flux must already be there, since the flux in the solder will have evaporated by the time you're there. 2013-08-31 17:05 please don't tell me you got plumbing solder ;-) is your solder a wire of about 1 mm diameter or less ? 2013-08-31 17:05 or is it a 1 cm wide bar ? 2013-08-31 17:07 it'ssomething like this: http://www.chipdip.ru/product0/9000172909/ 2013-08-31 17:08 what is plumbing solder? 2013-08-31 17:10 1.5-3.0 mm ... heavy duty solder ;-) 2013-08-31 17:12 yeah, mine is 1.5 mm 2013-08-31 17:12 http://www.aimalloys.com/solder_products/plumbing_solder.htm 2013-08-31 17:13 you want proper electronics solder. with such a thick wire, it's already hard to get a small enough drop. 2013-08-31 17:13 care to share a picture of your soldering iron ? i'm kinda curious what sort of monstrosity you use for that ... 2013-08-31 17:14 (maybe some flamethrower the germans left in ww2 ? :) 2013-08-31 17:14 --) wait a sec 2013-08-31 17:14 for solder, should i search for a thiner wire? 2013-08-31 17:15 it seems that 1mm is the thinest 2013-08-31 17:15 the thinner the better. the one i get from local electronics shops is 0.7 mm 2013-08-31 17:16 that's the one i use most of the time 2013-08-31 17:18 i also have some 0.5 mm solder. that's pretty thin. 2013-08-31 17:19 (what matters is the square of the diameter, so if 0.7 mm is "1", with 0.5 mm, I get half the amount of tin per distance 2013-08-31 17:19 http://imgur.com/a/IZxIv 2013-08-31 17:19 with 1 mm would be "2". 1.5 mm is "4" ... 2013-08-31 17:20 right.. 2013-08-31 17:20 so with your thick wire, you have to be four times more precise than i have to be with my 0.7 mm wire. well, it doesn't exactly work like that, but it means that you'll have more trouble with dosage than i do 2013-08-31 17:21 especially when feeding solder to a joint 2013-08-31 17:21 (as oppose to getting a small drop on the tip of the iron) 2013-08-31 17:22 urgh 2013-08-31 17:22 the tip seems reasonable. but the pistol grip is really inconvenient for precision work. what you want it a pencil-shaped iron. 2013-08-31 17:23 yeah, i don't use the handle like you hold a pistol.. i kinda hold it by it's horizontal part 2013-08-31 17:23 not very convenient 2013-08-31 17:24 exactly. something like this would be a lot more convenient: http://www.howardelectronics.com/xytronic/253.html 2013-08-31 17:25 but i'd spend a bit more money and get something like this: http://www.howardelectronics.com/xytronic/lf369D.html 2013-08-31 17:25 look too pro :) 2013-08-31 17:26 temperature control is useful if you have different sizes of things. e.g., for small things, about 270 C is great (on my station. the numbers may differ on other equipment) 2013-08-31 17:26 USD 50 for the station. about twice what a fixed-temperature iron costs 2013-08-31 17:27 you can probably find cheaper ones, too. xytronic are pretty good, though. 2013-08-31 17:27 so i need a new everything :) 2013-08-31 17:27 if soldering connectors with a lot of metal, i increase the temperature to 370 C. that way, the connector can suck up heat and the iron is still hot 2013-08-31 17:28 also, when tinning boards, i set the iron to 370 C, because i want to be able to move it quickly, to avoid overheating the "glue" under the traces 2013-08-31 17:28 yeah, you need to get yourself some decent equipment 2013-08-31 17:30 it's not that expensive. for about USD 100, you should be able to put together a pretty decent starter kit 2013-08-31 17:30 i'll just finish this particular project with a pistol solder, and see if i still have an urge to do anything myself 2013-08-31 17:31 you'll also want small tweezers. like these: http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/ts--15-tweezers.html 2013-08-31 17:31 yeah, i really lack those... 2013-08-31 17:32 and you'll also want these: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/PROSKIT-8PK3002D-WIRE-STRIPPER-PROS-KIT-PK3002-/400535262880 2013-08-31 17:32 and the pk-3001 model, for thinner wires 2013-08-31 17:34 doing it with a knife right now :) 2013-08-31 17:34 they work great. much better than these critters: http://www.electronicum.at/preisliste/BILDER/1560-Abisolierzange-506.jpg 2013-08-31 17:34 knife is okay but requires more skill. also has a much higher risk of cutting into the wire, damaging it 2013-08-31 17:35 these are also very nice: http://www.lotos.si/en-us/shop/item/2630400000102 2013-08-31 17:35 (i mean the specific model) they're very precise and well-built 2013-08-31 17:36 these are some of the essential tools. with proper tools, you'll be surprised how easy things are :) 2013-08-31 17:38 I think I have the second xytronic at the office, I can confirm that it works nicely 2013-08-31 17:38 (finish with pistol) you have it backwards ;-) we already know that your tools are not good, so you can save yourself the frustration and get better ones 2013-08-31 17:44 ok, thanks for advice! 2013-08-31 17:45 tools are very important, no argue here. And the same applies everywhere, not just DIYing 2013-08-31 17:47 paul_boddie has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 17:47 yeah, the more expensive the failures, the more certain you want to be your tools won't let you down :) 2013-08-31 17:47 * paul_boddie just saw there was a soldering tutorial in progress. :-) 2013-08-31 17:50 heh :) 2013-08-31 17:59 arossdotme has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 18:03 I sympathise again with kyak and the trials of soldering. 2013-08-31 18:05 But I found that 60/40 tin/lead solder made a difference with my iron. 2013-08-31 18:05 This stuff: http://www.clasohlson.com/uk/Electrical-Solder/30-9565 2013-08-31 18:06 I still made a few solder balls, but it was a lot less frustrating than last time, but still frustrating. ;-) 2013-08-31 18:10 I read a review of the lead-free solder stating that it was "impossible" for soldering electronics. 2013-08-31 18:12 arossdotme has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 2013-08-31 18:19 naw, it's far from impossible. but it adds a challenge :) 2013-08-31 18:29 viric has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-08-31 18:31 viric has joined #qi-hardware 2013-08-31 19:20 heh, seriously? 220 Volt Power Option makes Xytronic LF-369D $21 more expensive 2013-08-31 19:20 as compared to a base 110 Volt 2013-08-31 19:20 For some irons it can be a real challenge. I think that some vendors sell irons assuming that people will use them with tin/lead solder. 2013-08-31 19:21 also i can't really find xytronic in russia.. and shipping is more expensive than the iron 2013-08-31 19:21 will look for something else 2013-08-31 19:21 paul_boddie: it's all a question of temperature. of course, with a fixed-temperature iron you'll more easily encounter a situation where it doesn't do what you want 2013-08-31 19:23 kyak: a lot of chinese devices get rebranded. so you can often simply compare the picture. in many cases, devices that look the same really are the same 2013-08-31 19:23 Indeed. My feeling is that various "popular electronics hobby" vendors think that everyone is singing from their songbook. 2013-08-31 19:23 also, since the one you start with is already low-cost, there's not so much risk of the "clones" being flawed copies 2013-08-31 19:24 paul_boddie: just avoid the fixed-temperature irons :) better equipment isn't all that hard to find and only costs a little more 2013-08-31 19:25 ok :) 2013-08-31 19:26 at some point, you also have to ask yourself if saving USD 20 is really worth days of suffering because things just don't want to work (plus the value of all the components you destroy in the process) 2013-08-31 19:26 kyak: don't you have any city with some electronics shops where you live ? 2013-08-31 19:26 I think the problem is that people don't always know what they want when they start out. 2013-08-31 19:27 kyak: all those things are really basic. they shouldn't be *that* hard to find 2013-08-31 19:27 So they go along with advice about these things where the people giving the advice makes a lot of assumptions. 2013-08-31 19:27 paul_boddie: yeah, that's a bit of a problem. often, the "entry level" (= cheap) stuff just doesn't cut it. not only in electronics. 2013-08-31 19:28 wpwrak: there is a lot of stuff. it's just that i don't really know what to choose 2013-08-31 19:28 kyak: well, you know have a shopping list and some decision criteria :) 2013-08-31 19:28 So, people say "this iron is great - it's all you need", but they don't mention that they only consider it usable with tin/lead solder. 2013-08-31 19:29 Because that's all they use. They don't consider that many people may only see the lead-free stuff. 2013-08-31 19:29 wpwrak: that's basically how i filter it now :) 2013-08-31 19:29 As for cities with electronics shops, I was surprised to see soldering stuff resurface where I live. 2013-08-31 19:30