2013-06-10 00:48 <hellekin> http://torrentfreak.com/arm-launches-hollywood-approved-anti-piracy-processor-130603/ last week's news but wow
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2013-06-10 01:39 <wpwrak> so much about the mali series being open-friendly
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2013-06-10 03:15 * hellekin rebooting server bbs
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2013-06-10 06:52 <damo22> Mali = Male
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2013-06-10 06:54 <damo22> (Latin for ill, bad, wrong)
2013-06-10 06:55 <wpwrak> yeah, nomen est omen
2013-06-10 06:55 <damo22> :)
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2013-06-10 07:02 <damo22> its going to be a tough road ahead for free hardware to compete with the small SoCs that have everything (including hardware DRM)
2013-06-10 07:05 <damo22> unless we just use subsets of SoCs that have specs and ignore all the rest of its capabilities
2013-06-10 07:05 <damo22> might even be cheaper to purchase and to run if you do that
2013-06-10 07:06 <wpwrak> yeah, the "ignore the junk" approach works reasonably well so far
2013-06-10 07:07 <damo22> not on a raspberry pi though since the firmware blob executes the gpu afaik
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2013-06-10 07:07 <wpwrak> ignore the rpi then, problem solved :)
2013-06-10 07:07 <damo22> yep
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2013-06-10 07:08 <damo22> what is a good device to run librewrt on?
2013-06-10 07:09 <damo22> one of the buffalos?
2013-06-10 07:11 <wpwrak> the ben runs owrt quite nicely :)
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2013-06-10 08:05 * roh thinks this 'hardware drm' is bullshit till proper specs
2013-06-10 08:05 <roh> there were other soc before which had drm infrastructure... did it get used? no
2013-06-10 08:06 <roh> in the end they fail caring enough for their secret keys anyhow.. so why all the hassle?
2013-06-10 08:06 <wpwrak> "because they can"
2013-06-10 08:06 <viric_> what is that librewrt?
2013-06-10 08:06 <roh> wpwrak: haha... the user doesnt want to pay it. -> devices using too much drm fail in the market
2013-06-10 08:07 <viric_> ahh I've seen.
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2013-06-10 08:07 <viric_> roh: like apple devices?
2013-06-10 08:07 <roh> viric_: they fail in the majority of markets.
2013-06-10 08:07 <roh> they succeed where money isnt an issue.
2013-06-10 08:08 <viric_> which is the market of their interest.
2013-06-10 08:08 <wpwrak> roh: the trick is to put the DRM into a standard. then it's relatively costly to avoid it.
2013-06-10 08:08 <roh> result is that there are _much_ more people using other stuff since apples product are simply too expensive. not because of fails
2013-06-10 08:08 <roh> wpwrak: doesnt help. the user learned that drm is equivalent to 'doesnt work'
2013-06-10 08:09 <wpwrak> roh: that's why nobody buys TVs with HDCP ?
2013-06-10 08:09 <roh> i dont even own a dvd player anymore. never owned a blueray.. same applies for the most people i know in my age group.
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2013-06-10 08:09 <roh> wpwrak: doesnt matter. hdcp never was a burden since there are simple framegrabbers for it
2013-06-10 08:10 <wpwrak> HDCP was quite a headcache in the early days, for interoperability. yet it's still around
2013-06-10 08:11 <roh> wpwrak: it still IS a headache
2013-06-10 08:11 <roh> but in the end only for vendors of screens.
2013-06-10 08:11 <roh> the rest just buys cheap shit which works.
2013-06-10 08:11 <roh> and dvrs and such are being patched
2013-06-10 08:11 <roh> or one uses such hw: http://www.amazon.com/Hauppauge-Colossus-Express-Internal-HD-PVR/dp/product-description/B004OVE2B4
2013-06-10 08:12 <wpwrak> what a name ! ;-)
2013-06-10 08:12 <roh> http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/intensity/
2013-06-10 08:12 <roh> so.. there are already 2 major vendors with capture cards around.. need to dig deeper? i dont think so
2013-06-10 08:13 <roh> ah.. and then there are these hdmi-repeaters/splitters... guess what they do... decode hdcp and run N outputs uncrypted... wouldnt work anyhow otherwise
2013-06-10 08:14 <roh> so.. no.. hdcp isnt what i consider working drm.
2013-06-10 08:15 <wpwrak> what i mean to say is that HDCP is an obstacle even to "legal" use by customers. yet it succeeded. (well, was forced down everyone's throat)
2013-06-10 08:15 <damo22> just because they have so far failed to enforce drm doesnt mean they wont stop trying, and we cant just sit there and let them do it
2013-06-10 08:16 <wpwrak> this illustrates the limits of "just say no"
2013-06-10 08:16 <roh> wpwrak: i wouldnt call that 'succeed'
2013-06-10 08:16 <roh> wpwrak: most times hdcp isnt even enabled.. due to 'needs to work'
2013-06-10 08:16 <damo22> they want to put DRM into operating systems
2013-06-10 08:16 <wpwrak> don't DVD players insist on it ?
2013-06-10 08:17 <roh> wpwrak: the only reason people use hdmi instead of dvi is 'it transports audio as well' and that the plugs are nicer
2013-06-10 08:17 <roh> wpwrak: so what... every chinese tv has the keys
2013-06-10 08:17 <roh> wpwrak: and the master keys were leaked/exposed some years ago. its goners
2013-06-10 08:17 <wpwrak> well yes. now it's of course broken.
2013-06-10 08:18 <roh> the only reason bunnie made himself so much work was that he did NOT want to use these keys
2013-06-10 08:18 <damo22> if they put drm into operating system level, and hardware level, we wont be able to use drop in replacement free software to decode the content
2013-06-10 08:18 <roh> my point is: by definition there will never be broadcast which has working drm. the flaw is in the concept
2013-06-10 08:18 <roh> damo22: you already have all the hw you need
2013-06-10 08:19 <roh> damo22: the tpm in your machine combined with a bit of sw could do such a thing... but since its not helping the user, nobody does use/need it.
2013-06-10 08:19 <roh> the only thing advancing every time some drm system gets enforced is the speed of it being hacked/circumvented.
2013-06-10 08:21 <damo22> how come i cant buy a laptop that ships with windows 8 and put linux on it
2013-06-10 08:21 <roh> you can
2013-06-10 08:21 <damo22> without doing something crazy to my brand new laptop
2013-06-10 08:21 <roh> to be fair.. i havent heard a single argument of a change to 10 years ago
2013-06-10 08:23 <damo22> some new laptops are so locked down you cant even boot a cd unless you remove the hard drive first
2013-06-10 08:23 <damo22> which might be difficult to do if its a ssd fused to the mobo
2013-06-10 08:23 <roh> damo22: why should anybody buy something like that?
2013-06-10 08:24 <damo22> people do, theyre cheap
2013-06-10 08:24 <roh> so are computers that work
2013-06-10 08:26 <roh> damo22: do you remember video2000?
2013-06-10 08:26 <damo22> no
2013-06-10 08:26 <roh> heh.. but you know vhs?
2013-06-10 08:26 <damo22> yeah
2013-06-10 08:27 <roh> you know why?
2013-06-10 08:27 <damo22> nope
2013-06-10 08:27 <roh> video2000 was cheaper and basically had a minor technical advantage... but it failed.
2013-06-10 08:28 <roh> it failed because the vendor doing it prohibited prerecorded porn to be sold on that medium... so thats the story why video2000 failed and vhs rocked.... vhs had porn
2013-06-10 08:28 <damo22> omg
2013-06-10 08:28 <roh> now think again about drm and companies like apple and their politics when it comes to content.... i am sittin that one out, leaning back and listen to the music play...
2013-06-10 08:30 <damo22> i dont own an ithing
2013-06-10 08:30 <damo22> but not because you cant buy porn on itunes
2013-06-10 08:30 <damo22> i dont own an ithing because i dont want to be restricted to buy my electronic media from one store
2013-06-10 08:31 <damo22> or cripple the development of creativity
2013-06-10 08:32 <roh> you see...
2013-06-10 08:32 <roh> people use stuff as long as its convenient. if its not, they buy something different. so no reason to worry just because arm wants weird customers
2013-06-10 08:33 <damo22> yes but people are like sheep they buy anything that is convenient and that is a problem if one company gives them everything they want, at any price to their freedoms
2013-06-10 08:34 <damo22> especially if the competition is crippled by that company due to patents
2013-06-10 08:34 <roh> heh... well.. i dont see that
2013-06-10 08:35 <damo22> competition is healthy in a market
2013-06-10 08:35 <damo22> it promotes innovation
2013-06-10 08:36 <damo22> but if software companies collect patents like trading cards, instead of developing good software, innovation is crippled
2013-06-10 08:43 <damo22> i dont want to harp on about it, but my point is, if arm becomes in the habit of developing hardware that supports drm by specification, it makes it easier for large companies to standardise the idea that sharing is bad and people will have less choices to install free software onto new hardware
2013-06-10 08:47 <roh> damo22: thats what i do not believe yet.
2013-06-10 08:47 <roh> maybe the hw SUPPORTS drm. but thats something you pc does for 10 years now.
2013-06-10 08:48 <roh> its still not locked to anything.. and will not be. why? because the hw vendors want to sell.
2013-06-10 08:48 <damo22> it took microsoft 10 years but they removed the start button and now the hardware only boots windows
2013-06-10 08:50 <lekernel> roh, how much hardware have you been selling lately?
2013-06-10 08:51 <roh> lekernel: enough ;) my customers want stuff that works, all drm free
2013-06-10 08:54 <damo22> there should not be an option in the bios to lock it down to one OS that is out of the users control.. there is no benefit to the user
2013-06-10 08:57 <damo22> just because it is convenient to boot up in 2 seconds, doesnt help the user if he/she decides the system is a piece of crap
2013-06-10 08:59 <larsc> works for 90% of the users though
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2013-06-10 12:03 <viric> have you seen this ? http://www.fairphone.com/
2013-06-10 12:09 <larsc> yes
2013-06-10 12:09 <viric> any opinion?
2013-06-10 12:09 <viric> as for drivers, it may be as any other phone, no?
2013-06-10 12:10 <larsc> yea, I don't think the focus is on free software here
2013-06-10 12:11 <viric> neither free hw
2013-06-10 12:12 <viric> but they claim "Open, flexible design"
2013-06-10 12:12 <viric> "Root access: Install your preferred operating system and take control of your data"
2013-06-10 12:12 <viric> "In discussions with developer communities to make Fairphone optimized for other open-source platforms"
2013-06-10 12:12 <viric> "Our next steps include implementing additional open design elements. We’re joining forces with open developer platforms like Ubuntu and FireFox to offer users the choice of OS upon purchase of the phone."
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2013-06-10 13:33 <damo22> looks like another android clone
2013-06-10 13:40 <viric> sure
2013-06-10 13:41 <viric> but the different approach is interesting
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