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2013-03-23 06:32 <kyak> hm.. for example, i have "out = 25 >= input" in my code. Both out and input are unsigned char
2013-03-23 06:32 <kyak> do i need to use the U suffix with 25?
2013-03-23 06:34 <kyak> for what i understand, it makes a difference.. for (25 >= input) the comparison is carried out on type int, whereas for (25U >= input) the comparison is done on type unsigned int
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2013-03-23 08:41 <larsc> shouldn't matter
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2013-03-23 09:00 <kyak> larsc: what if it's 32768, not 25? 32768 can be ambigous depending on platform
2013-03-23 09:05 <kyak> well, 128 can be ambigous, too, since MSB is 1
2013-03-23 09:08 <larsc> your unsigned char should get promoted to int
2013-03-23 09:08 <larsc> since the whole range of unsigned char fits into a signed int
2013-03-23 09:10 <larsc> things get messy if you compare a signed int with an unsigned int
2013-03-23 09:11 <kyak> what happens in this case?
2013-03-23 09:13 <larsc> good question, I'd need to look it up
2013-03-23 09:14 <larsc> but I think you'd end up with both signed
2013-03-23 09:14 <kyak> speaking about the promotion.. if i have (128 >= input), and compile it for 8-bit processor, i might not get the same results when i compile it for 16-bit.. Right?
2013-03-23 09:14 <kyak> because for 8bit it essentially becomes (-1 >= input)..
2013-03-23 09:15 <kyak> because of promotion.. So it is generally a godo practice to use U suffix, that would avoid this problem?
2013-03-23 09:16 <larsc> http://pastebin.com/KxE44R0P
2013-03-23 09:16 <larsc> It might depend on your platform, some 8bit archs still have 16bit integers
2013-03-23 09:17 <larsc> but the extra U shouldn't hurt
2013-03-23 09:17 <kyak> http://codepad.org/jHRcJzKF :)
2013-03-23 09:17 <kyak> yeah, you are right
2013-03-23 09:17 <kyak> i meant the integer size, not the architecture
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2013-03-23 11:25 <wpwrak> if you have signed and unsigned, promotion is to unsigned
2013-03-23 11:25 <wpwrak> that's why things like -1 > 1U yield "true"
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2013-03-23 11:48 <kyak> why does -1+1U yield 0 then, not -2? :)
2013-03-23 11:49 <kyak> i mean, maxint/2+2
2013-03-23 11:49 <wpwrak> because 0xfff....+1 is 0+carry :)
2013-03-23 11:49 <wpwrak> -1 is not maxuint/2 (or anything nearby) but maxuint-1
2013-03-23 11:50 <wpwrak> err, just maxuint of courwe
2013-03-23 11:50 <wpwrak> i.e., it's 0xff...ff
2013-03-23 11:51 <kyak> not according to wikipedia :)
2013-03-23 11:51 <kyak> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signed_number_representations
2013-03-23 11:51 <wpwrak> huh ?
2013-03-23 11:51 <kyak> 0xff is -0
2013-03-23 11:51 <kyak> 0xff-1 is -1
2013-03-23 11:51 <whitequark> wat?
2013-03-23 11:52 <whitequark> -0?
2013-03-23 11:52 <whitequark> 0xff is -1 in 2's complement machines
2013-03-23 11:52 <wpwrak> well, i'm talking about two's complement
2013-03-23 11:52 <kyak> oh, ok, i'm sorry
2013-03-23 11:52 <wpwrak> which is what almost everything uses. if you can find a machine that used one's complement natively (good luck with that :), then you're right with -0
2013-03-23 11:53 <kyak> so then -1+1U, promoted to unsigned int, is 0xff+0x01 - should be 0x01?
2013-03-23 11:54 <whitequark> kyak: no. 0xff + 0x01 = 0x100, but it's then truncated to 8 bits
2013-03-23 11:54 <whitequark> i.e. 0x00
2013-03-23 11:54 <kyak> oh! i see!
2013-03-23 11:55 <kyak> now i understand how it wraps aroudn zero..
2013-03-23 11:56 <kyak> what is we have a machine where integer size is 8bit?
2013-03-23 11:57 <kyak> how would it be able to hold 0x100?
2013-03-23 11:57 <whitequark> kyak: it doesn't hold 0x100
2013-03-23 11:58 <whitequark> you can emulate that by using two 8bit integers manually
2013-03-23 11:58 <whitequark> or let your compiler do that
2013-03-23 11:58 <whitequark> then each arithmetic operation will take more than one instruction. much more, usually
2013-03-23 11:58 <kyak> how would it work without emulation?
2013-03-23 11:59 <whitequark> kyak: it won't
2013-03-23 12:00 <wpwrak> the one extra bit is usually represented by a "carry" flag. so in assembler, you'd just use that if you need to make larger operations. in C, the carry flag is not accessible.
2013-03-23 12:00 <whitequark> 0x100 is not stored anywhere
2013-03-23 12:00 <whitequark> ^ that
2013-03-23 12:01 <kyak> wpwrak: does this carry flag essentially lets us use 9-bit integers or what?
2013-03-23 12:01 <wpwrak> sort of, yes
2013-03-23 12:01 <kyak> can we use two carry flags? :)
2013-03-23 12:01 <wpwrak> e.g., you'd implement a 16 bit addition on an 8 bit cpu like this:
2013-03-23 12:02 <wpwrak> mov r0, a_low; mov r1, a_high; mov r2, b_low; mov r3, b_high
2013-03-23 12:02 <wpwrak> add r4, r0, r2; addc r5, r1, r3
2013-03-23 12:03 <wpwrak> mov result_low, r4; mov result_high, r5
2013-03-23 12:04 <wpwrak> "add" would be addition without carry while "addc" would be addition with carry. i.e., "add" does A+B while "addc" does A+B+C, where A and B are the summands and C is the carry bit.
2013-03-23 12:04 <wpwrak> both add and addc would set the carry bit if the result wraps around 0xff
2013-03-23 12:05 <wpwrak> the same concept applies to larger word sizes. i.e., if your cpu is 32 bits and you want to implement uint64_t addition, you'd use exactly the same algorithm
2013-03-23 12:05 <kyak> yep, that's clear. .This is something you would do if you want to keep your result and not to overflow
2013-03-23 12:08 <kyak> so if i do a -1+1U, and compile it for a machine with 8-bit integer size, i would suddenly get all of this extra code?
2013-03-23 12:09 <kyak> what would happend if r0 holds 0xff, r1 holds 0x01, and i do add r3, r2, r1?
2013-03-23 12:10 <kyak> hat's going to be in r3?
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2013-03-23 14:59 <wpwrak> kyak: r3 would be 0x00 (0xff+0x01 is  255 + 1 = 0 (mod 256))
2013-03-23 15:01 <wpwrak> things would be a little different if you do this in C. e.g., int x = (unsigned char ) -1+1; would result in 256
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2013-03-23 15:44 <kyak> wpwrak: how is (mod 256) calculated if 256 (0x100) is not stored anywhere according to whitequark?
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2013-03-23 15:57 <wpwrak> in the assembler example ? well, it's implicit. (mod 256) means that you only have 8 bits
2013-03-23 16:05 <wpwrak> maybe it becomes clearer if you picture it as an adder: each bit of the adder has three inputs and two outputs. the inputs are A and B, plus the Carry from the previous bit
2013-03-23 16:05 <wpwrak> the outputs are the sum (just one bit) and the carry to the next bit
2013-03-23 16:06 <wpwrak> the output is result = (A+B+Cin) & 1; carry_out = (A+B+Cin) >> 1;
2013-03-23 16:07 <wpwrak> you have an adder for each bit, with the carry bits connected from LSB to MSB. Cin of LSB is either 0 or the carry flag, depending on whether you have an "add" or an "add-with-carry" operation
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2013-03-23 16:07 <wpwrak> this is what it looks like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adder_(electronics)
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2013-03-23 16:12 <larsc> if it helps think of it as AND 0xff rather than mod 256
2013-03-23 16:13 <wpwrak> or just a bit falling off the edge of the world :)
2013-03-23 16:14 <wpwrak> a sacrifice to entropy
2013-03-23 16:14 <larsc> the lemming bit
2013-03-23 16:16 <wpwrak> we should patent the carry as "lemming-bit catching aparatus". then sure intel, arm, etc. for a few cubic-gazillions
2013-03-23 16:16 <wpwrak> s/sure/sue/
2013-03-23 16:16 <qi-bot> wpwrak meant: "we should patent the carry as "lemming-bit catching aparatus". then sue intel, arm, etc. for a few cubic-gazillions"
2013-03-23 16:17 <larsc> :)
2013-03-23 16:21 <kyak> heh :)
2013-03-23 16:22 <kyak> wpwrak: thanks for explanation
2013-03-23 16:25 <wpwrak> i hope i made it clearer :)
2013-03-23 16:25 <kyak> you did
2013-03-23 16:25 <kyak> and and found some pictures of 8 bit adders
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2013-03-23 16:50 <DocScrutinizer05> ((<wpwrak> this is what it looks like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adder_(electronics) )) which is what I built with Braun Lectron for our 150 year aniversary at my highshcool, been 13 y o iirc
2013-03-23 16:51 <DocScrutinizer05> I built if from memory/designing it realtime in my mind
2013-03-23 16:51 <DocScrutinizer05> and I actually used simple NAND /NOR gates only
2013-03-23 16:52 <DocScrutinizer05> actually been a 4bit adder
2013-03-23 16:56 <DocScrutinizer05> oops, I think I also had XOR
2013-03-23 16:57 <DocScrutinizer05> and I must've been 15 already
2013-03-23 16:57 <DocScrutinizer05> or 14
2013-03-23 16:58 <kyak> did you mean you were 0xE? :)
2013-03-23 16:58 <DocScrutinizer05> hehe
2013-03-23 16:58 <DocScrutinizer05> :->
2013-03-23 16:59 <larsc> 016
2013-03-23 16:59 <DocScrutinizer05> there are only 10 kind of people
2013-03-23 17:00 <DocScrutinizer05> those who know binary and those who don't
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2013-03-23 17:19 <DocScrutinizer05> kyak: it should be mentioned maybe that you usually have only one ALU wide carry flag (and one sign flag), it gets used for all ADDC (and SUBC, and a few others) operations, no matter which registers are the operands and which the result
2013-03-23 17:21 <wpwrak> at 13 you had your 150th anniversary ? are you a very small dog ? :)
2013-03-23 17:21 <DocScrutinizer05> my highschool had 150
2013-03-23 17:23 <DocScrutinizer05> ding says "secondary school"
2013-03-23 17:23 <DocScrutinizer05> while "highschool" seems to be no english but a german word X-P
2013-03-23 17:24 <DocScrutinizer05> and gymnasium is for sure a false friend :-P
2013-03-23 17:26 <DocScrutinizer05> I prepared some show-off stuff for physics, in chemistry section a mad teacher made a ~10ml of trinitroglycerene
2013-03-23 17:28 <DocScrutinizer05> my adder went mad each time the van-der-graaf nearby went "BANG" with a one meter spark. In chemistry all clothes trembled each time the teacher did a BANG with one drop of his stuff
2013-03-23 17:29 <DocScrutinizer05> the highlight of the day been when I watched this teacher burning down the remaining 9.5ml of nitro
2013-03-23 17:30 <DocScrutinizer05> at end of the day
2013-03-23 17:30 <wpwrak> that was when they started building the new school ?
2013-03-23 17:30 <DocScrutinizer05> I probably thought exactly same in that moment, but amazingly enough nothing specacular happened
2013-03-23 17:32 <DocScrutinizer05> he poured the whole shit into a white ceramic bowl and burned it down with a bunsen
2013-03-23 17:32 <DocScrutinizer05> about as spectacular as a candle with a slightly wet wick
2013-03-23 17:33 <wpwrak> i'm sure the pouring needed a steady hand, though :)
2013-03-23 17:33 <DocScrutinizer05> I think he didn't pour it from extreme height into that bowl, yeah
2013-03-23 17:36 <DocScrutinizer05> but actually that stuff is quite inpredictable but usually less critical than urban legends suggest. In even younger years I tried to produce nitro maybe 50 times, and I was *sooo* sure this time it worked, everything exactly as it should, reaction observed, result like it should. Alas (or luckily) it _never_ exploded when I had a drop of it fall from 1st floor to stone pavement
2013-03-23 17:37 <DocScrutinizer05> so every single time the content of the glaspipe ended in the bathroom sink and got flushed by plenty of tap water ;-)
2013-03-23 17:37 <wpwrak> sometimes, failure can keep you out of juvenile jail :)
2013-03-23 17:37 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah :-)
2013-03-23 17:38 <larsc> or out of the hospital
2013-03-23 17:39 <DocScrutinizer05> some austrian ashole here shipped letters with nitro and electric ignition some years ago
2013-03-23 17:39 <DocScrutinizer05> none of them exploded prematurely
2013-03-23 17:40 <DocScrutinizer05> some neonazi asshole
2013-03-23 17:41 <DocScrutinizer05> several people lost fingers or a hand
2013-03-23 17:41 <DocScrutinizer05> usually the secretary of those he meant to hurt
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2013-03-23 17:43 <DocScrutinizer05> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabella_Kiesbauer
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2013-03-23 17:44 <DocScrutinizer05> >>However she did not open the letter; this being done by her assistant who was subsequently injured by the bomb<<
2013-03-23 17:45 <DocScrutinizer05> those were nitro in a macdonalds straw
2013-03-23 17:50 <DocScrutinizer05> CR2023 and some small electr(on)ics, and a spark device plugged into one end of straw
2013-03-23 17:51 <DocScrutinizer05> 2032
2013-03-23 17:58 <wpwrak> did they ever catch him ?
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2013-03-23 18:05 <DocScrutinizer05> yep
2013-03-23 18:06 <DocScrutinizer05> I seem to recall he even had an "accident" with one of his creations ;-P
2013-03-23 18:07 <DocScrutinizer05> ooh, no. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Fuchs_(Attentäter)
2013-03-23 18:08 <DocScrutinizer05> suicide
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2013-03-23 18:09 <whitequark> argh
2013-03-23 18:10 <whitequark> whoever wrote the http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohrbombe page is a terrible person
2013-03-23 18:10 <whitequark> (NSFL.)
2013-03-23 18:11 * whitequark just financed the extortioners in ISO: http://imgur.com/tATMmEs
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2013-03-23 18:16 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer05: attempted suicide, followed a few years later by a successful one. not too bad in terms of poetic justice.
2013-03-23 18:21 <DocScrutinizer05> :nod:
2013-03-23 18:21 <wpwrak> nice ... xpdf is broken in ubuntu 12.10, too (was in 12.04 as well). i suppose the whole QA department of ubuntu was reassigned to work on their "value-added" gadgets ...
2013-03-23 18:21 <DocScrutinizer05> who's using buntkuh? :-o
2013-03-23 18:22 <wpwrak> (fortunately, building xpdf from source does solve the problem)
2013-03-23 18:23 <wpwrak> well, it used to be quite good. but recently they seem to be confused.
2013-03-23 18:23 <DocScrutinizer05> http://xkcd.com/424/
2013-03-23 18:23 <DocScrutinizer05> I wholeheartedly agree with xkcd here, regarding buntkuh
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2013-03-23 18:24 <whitequark> worst of all... I don't even see how is that (proprietary services / stupid forking / mobile devices) going to help them
2013-03-23 18:24 <wpwrak> ;-) naw, once you apt-get remove consolekit it's almost clean :)
2013-03-23 18:25 <whitequark> huh? what's up with consolekit?
2013-03-23 18:36 <wpwrak> removing it gets rid of a number of things i don't want :)
2013-03-23 18:36 <whitequark> oh, the dependency hell
2013-03-23 18:37 <whitequark> the person who wrote ruby's parse.y was on some serious drugs.
2013-03-23 18:37 <wpwrak> my preferred session goes like this: boot, log in at the /bin/login prompt, startx, ... weeks pass
2013-03-23 18:37 <whitequark> I think I've poured around 2 weeks into rewriting it in a sane way already
2013-03-23 18:37 <whitequark> (why? need precise location reporter, otherwise type inferencer's error messages are unreadable)
2013-03-23 18:38 <wpwrak> messy grammar ? or just poor implementation ?
2013-03-23 18:38 <whitequark> these two, combined
2013-03-23 18:38 <whitequark> the grammar is incredibly overloaded, { for example has four distinct context-specific meanings
2013-03-23 18:38 <whitequark> plus the implementation is utterly insane
2013-03-23 18:38 <wpwrak> sounds like fun :)
2013-03-23 18:39 <whitequark> it depends on bison actions with side effects changing stacked state in the lexer in some way I *still* do not really understand
2013-03-23 18:39 <whitequark> I even bought the ISO standard in a hope that it would clear some of this mess
2013-03-23 18:39 <whitequark> well, it kinda helped, but not enough
2013-03-23 18:40 <whitequark> worst of all
2013-03-23 18:40 <whitequark> I think I began to understand this stuff ~today. and do you know why is it all needed?
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2013-03-23 18:41 <whitequark> to handle two special cases of really, really screwed up syntactic combinations which are so utterly inconvenient, apart from being bad practice, that I think they weren't written by anyone ever once
2013-03-23 18:42 <whitequark> and I mean things like a while..do (not just while) loop in the condition (not body!) clause of which there is another while..do loop
2013-03-23 18:42 <whitequark> I mean I didn't even *know* ruby has while..do loops before I started hacking its parser.
2013-03-23 18:42 <whitequark> neither did anyone I have asked since
2013-03-23 18:43 <wpwrak> writing a parser, compiler, or similar often furthers your understanding of the language ;-)
2013-03-23 18:44 <whitequark> ... reverse-engineering a parser.
2013-03-23 18:44 <whitequark> reverse-engineering a frikkin open-source parser.
2013-03-23 18:44 <whitequark> it is easier to just treat it as a black box...
2013-03-23 18:45 <whitequark> the C lexer has three nested levels of switches with fallthoughs and breaks and continues *and* plenty of gotos
2013-03-23 18:46 <whitequark> 11KLOC
2013-03-23 18:46 <whitequark> this could serve as a poster example of why you should never, ever, use C to write complex software.
2013-03-23 18:46 <whitequark> http://rxr.whitequark.org/mri/source/parse.y
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2013-03-23 20:06 <lekernel> whitequark, if you need standards, I€€€ publications etc. send me an email. I have access to many of those.
2013-03-23 20:09 <whitequark> lekernel: too late in this case, but thanks for the offer!
2013-03-23 20:09 <whitequark> I'll keep that in mind
2013-03-23 20:15 <lekernel> they're also available for free at your local (physical) library, sometimes
2013-03-23 20:15 <whitequark> doubt so
2013-03-23 20:16 <whitequark> well, a ГОСТ will probably be available.
2013-03-23 20:16 <lekernel> guest?
2013-03-23 20:16 <whitequark> (a CIS international standard.)
2013-03-23 20:16 <whitequark> aka GOST.
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