2013-02-26 00:28 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 00:41 gbraad has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 00:41 gbraad has quit [Changing host] 2013-02-26 00:41 gbraad has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 00:42 guanucoluis1 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-02-26 01:10 rz2k has quit [] 2013-02-26 01:13 guanucoluis has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 01:18 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 01:47 emeb has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 2013-02-26 01:51 pcercuei2 is now known as pcercuei 2013-02-26 02:49 pcercuei has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-02-26 02:49 pcercuei2 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 03:45 cpg has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 03:48 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 03:49 pcercuei2 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-02-26 03:51 not sure if this is apropriate … i'm looking for advice on how to use this power mosfet: BSS138LT1 2013-02-26 03:51 pcercuei has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-02-26 03:51 or similar 2013-02-26 03:51 to drive LEDs with pwm 2013-02-26 03:51 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 03:51 pcercuei has quit [Client Quit] 2013-02-26 04:01 DocScrutinizer05 has quit [Disconnected by services] 2013-02-26 04:01 DocScrutinizer05 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 04:15 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 04:22 dandon_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 04:23 dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-02-26 04:23 dandon_ is now known as dandon 2013-02-26 04:39 cpg has left #qi-hardware [#qi-hardware] 2013-02-26 04:47 dlan^ has quit [Quit: Leaving] 2013-02-26 04:48 dlan^ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 05:53 pcercuei has quit [Quit: Bye] 2013-02-26 06:08 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 06:45 paroneayea has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-02-26 06:49 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 2013-02-26 07:11 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 07:24 jluis has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 07:39 lekernel has quit 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2013-02-26 09:19 xiangfu has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 09:33 wolfspraul has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 2013-02-26 09:41 LunaVorax has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 09:44 LunaVorax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-02-26 10:05 dlan^ has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-02-26 10:21 dlan^ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 10:33 Jay7 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 2013-02-26 10:48 LunaVorax has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 10:50 Jay7 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 10:52 guanucoluis has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-02-26 10:57 wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 11:49 Hi 2013-02-26 11:51 porchaso0 has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 11:53 porchao has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 2013-02-26 12:22 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 13:01 LunaVorax has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 2013-02-26 13:08 LunaVorax has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 13:30 LunaVorax has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-02-26 13:32 paroneayea has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 13:33 LunaVorax has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 13:34 gbraad has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-02-26 13:50 gbraad has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 13:50 gbraad has quit [Changing host] 2013-02-26 13:50 gbraad has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 14:22 xiangfu has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-02-26 14:28 gbraad has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-02-26 14:55 wolfspraul: ron dug out this overview paper, on new programming paradigms (C and such) for FPGAs: http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2443836 2013-02-26 15:00 so true 2013-02-26 15:02 just use migen. their FP temperature conversion example could be nearly the same as in C with the appropriate library. 2013-02-26 15:03 ;) 2013-02-26 15:05 kyak has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 15:14 heh :) well, i'm hoping for an approach with slightly deeper abstraction. i.e., go from regular C to whatever low-level. may well be that bits of migen would come in handy at some point of such an exercise, though 2013-02-26 15:14 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 15:21 migen already does python subset to straightforward FSM. increase the subset and optimize (eg. modulo scheduling) and you should get approximately what you want... 2013-02-26 15:27 wpwrak: hi :) 2013-02-26 15:27 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 2013-02-26 15:27 wpwrak: do you a good source (book?) for learning string/text manipulation with C? 2013-02-26 15:28 or basically you would use a library like pcre? .. 2013-02-26 15:28 naw, no idea. i tend to just do such things on the fly. 2013-02-26 15:37 emeb has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 15:38 did you just use "good" and "string manipulation with C" in the same sentence? 2013-02-26 15:40 well that's easy: "string manipulation with C is not a good idea" ;) 2013-02-26 15:42 hmm, how about "strings manipulation in C is just as good as you are" ? ;-) 2013-02-26 15:43 string manipulation in C is the best backdoor ever 2013-02-26 15:46 paul_boddie has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 15:50 pcercuei has quit [Quit: Bye] 2013-02-26 16:14 lekernel: Did you look at MyHDL? I did look at your thesis, but I can't remember if you mentioned it. 2013-02-26 16:14 yes - but everything in the thesis is pre-migen 2013-02-26 16:16 hey.. when you get confronted with a war-drone from the other side.. you'll be happy about broken string routines on network sockets, i assure you 2013-02-26 16:16 MyHDL seems to be of the PyPy school of code generation: load the system, let it warm up, read out the result. Although MyHDL seemed to actually have the system run and simulate the hardware before generating VHDL/Verilog, as far as I remember. 2013-02-26 16:17 paul_boddie, huh 2013-02-26 16:17 ? 2013-02-26 16:18 Maybe I should look at it again. 2013-02-26 16:18 the only thing related to pypy in myhdl is they recommend using it to make their simulator faster 2013-02-26 16:19 and you can also run simulations from migen ... 2013-02-26 16:21 Yes, I know about the benefits of PyPy running MyHDL, but what I meant was that the way the PyPy interpreter is built also involves it being imported into Python and then the relationships between the units of the interpreter being investigated. 2013-02-26 16:22 In other words, neither PyPy nor MyHDL use static analysis. 2013-02-26 16:23 wpwrak: yeah as good as i'm not hehe thats why i asked 2013-02-26 16:30 erikkugel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 16:35 LunaVorax has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 2013-02-26 16:38 Fallenou: add valgrind and C string manipulation suddenly looks much better. e.g., a lot of bugs show up quickly. in other languages, it's all silent failure. 2013-02-26 16:39 kristianpaul: you can always make regression tests. run them under valgrind and - if your tests have reasonably good coverage - it'll find pretty much all atrocities that may be hiding there. 2013-02-26 16:43 hehe 2013-02-26 16:44 kilae has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 16:48 wpwrak: yes, use valgrind, use ssp, -fstack-protector, compile as PIE to allow ASLR of .text, don't use lazy binding for dynamic linker resolution (in order to set .got section read only at startup) 2013-02-26 16:49 and use -Wall and -Wformat 2013-02-26 16:49 and use -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2 2013-02-26 16:49 :) 2013-02-26 16:50 (and a PaX kernel) 2013-02-26 16:52 heh, and i thought i was paranoid ;-) 2013-02-26 16:52 ;) 2013-02-26 16:53 bzb has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 16:57 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 16:58 dandon_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 16:59 ウラジスラフ コロトネフ: @Taiki__San IRC is fun, used it a lot in 2010, mainly hanging out asking dumb questions on @qihardware channel lol ( 306448079350018048@vladkorotnev - 51s ago via Twitter for Mac ) 2013-02-26 17:00 dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 2013-02-26 17:01 dandon_ is now known as dandon 2013-02-26 17:16 Fallenou: you forgot -pedantic 2013-02-26 17:17 and -Wformat-secutiry 2013-02-26 17:17 -Wformat-security 2013-02-26 17:18 that should be included in -Wall 2013-02-26 17:18 ok, the documentation says I'm wrong 2013-02-26 17:33 rz2k has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 17:45 wpwrak: I read that you were ramping down your qi-hw activity levels. Is that true? 2013-02-26 17:46 LunaVorax has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 18:21 hm. sharism.cc down 2013-02-26 18:22 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-02-26 18:23 paul_boddie: yes, the time of being able to act as if i was independently wealthy has come to an end 2013-02-26 18:30 lekernel has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 2013-02-26 18:30 wpwrak: sigh. same here 2013-02-26 18:37 It's a shame that it hasn't proved to be a sustainable way of life, I guess. 2013-02-26 18:37 C-Keen has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 2013-02-26 18:44 lekernel has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 18:44 ack 2013-02-26 18:46 time to win the lotto jackpot 2013-02-26 18:46 dandon_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 18:47 dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 2013-02-26 18:47 dandon_ is now known as dandon 2013-02-26 18:49 unix has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 18:55 C-Keen has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 18:58 paul_boddie: yeah, it's for lack of trying. but nothing worked :-( 2013-02-26 19:00 wpwrak: I think you've done some very interesting projects, and I still think that there are lots of nice applications for the Ben and the UBB, but I don't know how you get people to support these things, really. 2013-02-26 19:09 There seems to be a lot of economic activity around stuff like Arduino and the many other systems out there. Maybe people don't perceive the Qi-Hardware offerings as systems and so they don't pick up much momentum. 2013-02-26 19:13 dandon_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 19:15 dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 2013-02-26 19:15 dandon_ is now known as dandon 2013-02-26 20:03 paul_boddie: in the end it boils down to sales of products cross financing development 2013-02-26 20:18 unix has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.0] 2013-02-26 20:35 yeah, things like UBB were meant to make the Ben more attractive. but the ben would have needed a facelift, which never happened. 2013-02-26 20:37 perhaps the mistake was to switch too soon to M1, which looked attractive and exciting, but never found a market 2013-02-26 20:37 but then maybe the nanonote never had a chance, and even with everyone on that, we wouldn't have made it 2013-02-26 20:42 I think the Ben still has an interesting role to play for electronics experimentation. You see people messing around with the Raspberry Pi and saying that it's more usable than Arduino for flashing LEDs and all that kind of stuff, but the Raspberry Pi isn't a true portable solution. 2013-02-26 20:44 Having a device with a screen, as opposed to needing a HDMI-equipped monitor (or whatever), allows all sorts of things to be done on a fairly casual basis: you can just take the Ben along and it provides the whole package. 2013-02-26 20:45 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 20:45 lolwhat 2013-02-26 20:46 "more usable than arduino for flashing led" 2013-02-26 20:46 The argument for Raspberry Pi in bringing electronics into the classroom would also melt away substantially if someone just made a simple and cheap USB GPIO box, and that probably already exists, although I don't have any links to hand. 2013-02-26 20:46 arduino is a product entirely designed around flashing leds :S 2013-02-26 20:46 paul_boddie: it's not that simple. you can't reliably bitbang something over USB if the timing requirements are strict and freq is relatively high 2013-02-26 20:46 whitequark: I'm not advocating flashing LEDs. I know that even mentioning it to you is like waving a red rag in front of a bull. :-) 2013-02-26 20:46 you can, of course, if that's a synchronous bus 2013-02-26 20:47 like ft2232 jtag flashing works 2013-02-26 20:47 but you won't really be able to send or recv something with that box over a 115200 UART, or at least I think so 2013-02-26 20:47 Yes, but nobody is doing classroom electronics interfacing with really high frequency stuff. 2013-02-26 20:47 At least not the kind of classroom that the Raspberry Pi people are catering to. 2013-02-26 20:48 raspberry pi advocates on my blog were saying that rpi isn't really designed for meddling with electronics at all 2013-02-26 20:48 just a cheap computer for developing countries and otherwise economically constrained environments 2013-02-26 20:48 Those people regard it as everything to everyone and yet nothing to anyone in particular. They could run for public office. 2013-02-26 20:48 in which case it even somewhat makes sense 2013-02-26 20:49 haha that's excellent 2013-02-26 20:50 Well, it's actually for the UK education market. Given that cheap stuff is king in Austerity Britain, they'd be onto something, but then they'd need government grants to upgrade the "monitor stock". 2013-02-26 20:50 yeah, it's quite insane to require hdmi there 2013-02-26 20:50 I actually perceive it as being a product designed for one thing and justified by another argument entirely. 2013-02-26 20:51 well, if that "one thing" is "Broadcom promotion" then indeed 2013-02-26 20:51 I'm not sure what else RPi is actually good (opposed to "usable") for 2013-02-26 20:51 By the way, I wrote a blog entry about this which referenced yours: http://blogs.fsfe.org/pboddie/?p=111 2013-02-26 20:51 quoted by something.fsfe.org. Not sure if good or bad :) 2013-02-26 20:52 I could blog elsewhere, but this was convenient and pertinent. 2013-02-26 20:53 paul_boddie: are you from the UK? 2013-02-26 20:53 Yes. 2013-02-26 20:53 But I don't live there. 2013-02-26 20:54 your article is written much better than me. lots of interesting context I didn't know about. 2013-02-26 20:54 Thanks for the compliment! I was expecting flames. ;-) 2013-02-26 20:54 well, one does not exclude another 2013-02-26 20:55 Actually, I learned a few things while preparing that post, like the bit about the BBC Micro being made in India, although I don't think they managed to make the whole thing there in the end. 2013-02-26 20:55 As in, I don't know whether they managed to do licensed 6502 CPU production. 2013-02-26 20:55 There's a ton of interesting stuff you can dig up if you start digging. 2013-02-26 20:58 wpwrak: The M1 seems very interesting and it has immediate applications, but then there seems to be a lot of FPGA-related hardware out there, and I get the feeling that it mostly appeals to people who know what they want to do with such stuff. For everyone else, it's a bit mysterious. 2013-02-26 20:59 whitequark: Not that anyone will have read it, but I wanted to tease people a bit about the Raspberry Pi and the BBC Micro because there's a kind of advocacy from RPi people that really trades on the BBC legacy, and I wanted to point out that they don't necessarily have legitimacy in building on that. 2013-02-26 21:00 in a certain sense, they do build on the BBC legacy the way it has happened 2013-02-26 21:00 it's just that these days, computers are much more complex 2013-02-26 21:00 (and license-encumbered.) 2013-02-26 21:03 What they forget is that there was a vast amount of material produced before, during and after the BBC Micro shipped. What they've done is to ship the RPi (eventually) and then start talking about the materials. My impression is that Google has done a lot more in the past year or so to get educators involved in the new curriculum. 2013-02-26 21:10 kilae has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0/20130215130331]] 2013-02-26 21:10 pcercuei has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 21:15 paul_boddie: the nanonote is indeed very good for tinkering. but it would need stronger marketing for that. also, the ben's feature set is outdated, it has some annoying quirks (like a bad keyboard layout), and - worst of all - we never had full design control. 2013-02-26 21:16 paul_boddie: so the ben was very successful for getting something usable with an impressively small initial R&D effort, but it would have needed a follow-in product to capitalize on that achievement 2013-02-26 21:17 wpwrak: I guess we'll have to see how that handheld Ingenic-based console (whose name I don't remember, but it was related to the Dingoo) works out. 2013-02-26 21:18 paul_boddie: M1 is too complex as a pure FPGA experiment device, but it seems that the competition in the intended field outclasses it in terms of effect quality and overall usability (including compatibility with state of the art infrastructure). 2013-02-26 21:19 paul_boddie: so main feature the M1 had over the competition was integration. but that's probably just not enough. perhaps it could have been more successful with better marketing, though. 2013-02-26 21:20 marketing is too often overlooked :/ 2013-02-26 21:20 wpwrak: Yes, I think that people who know what they want probably just go straight for whatever that is, and people who aren't sure probably don't get an M1 just in case they don't get into FPGA-related stuff but need a VJ station. 2013-02-26 21:20 Well, I think the M1 is a success if you compare it to that project whose goal was to make an open graphics card. 2013-02-26 21:21 whitequark: yeah. and we're not good at it, so we'd need external help. help that is likely to cost money. 2013-02-26 21:23 paul_boddie: the M1 is a nice demonstration of technological ability ;-) even if it's far from on par with any PC or even a smartphone, it accomplishes a lot considering the ridiculously small resources available for its development 2013-02-26 21:24 paul_boddie: but of course, that doesn't mean that it's actually a viable product 2013-02-26 21:52 guanucoluis has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 21:54 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 2013-02-26 21:59 erikkugel has left #qi-hardware [#qi-hardware] 2013-02-26 22:03 jekhor has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 22:08 I do think that the Arduino market is interesting in this regard, though. We're not talking about mass-market stuff, but there are a lot of vendors selling boards and accessories, although I would also point out that many of them probably don't really add very much value, even the ones making their own versions of boards. 2013-02-26 22:10 the market seems to be interestingly large. proves that such a thing can be successful. 2013-02-26 22:15 People do seem to be willing to spend money on things that interest them and are presumably put to good use, but I think that there's probably a lot of trade on the basis of people liking the idea of doing a project and maybe having the time and energy to complete it, but also maybe not managing to do so. 2013-02-26 22:16 The idea of unfinished "do it yourself" projects is a recurring joke in popular culture, and I think that it fits in quite well with that kind of hobbyist culture. 2013-02-26 22:17 yeah, a nanonote may look too much like a "serious" investment for that segment of the market 2013-02-26 22:20 guanucoluis has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-02-26 22:23 There's probably an easily explained correlation between price and out-of-the-box usability. So, someone might be happy to spend $10 on a breakout board that may or may not give them an interesting project, but things like GPS boards for $50, say, and 802.11 on a board for $100 really need to be almost ready-made solutions (and have clear purposes). 2013-02-26 22:27 jow_laptop has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 22:28 not sure if it's so much the price or the appearance 2013-02-26 22:28 an arduino looks clearly rough and unfinished. a ben looks pretty and shiny. 2013-02-26 22:29 The other thing that the electronics hobby vendors are good at is selling you stuff that you didn't know you needed, and by the time you do know you needed them, you feel committed and won't just drop everything and take up something else instead. ;-) 2013-02-26 22:29 heh :) 2013-02-26 22:30 of course, there would be something to be said for nice packages. e.g., nanonote plus UBBs plus components for experiments plus a little booklet explaining the experiments plus software to drive the things 2013-02-26 22:31 all this could still have a very low hardware cost. BUT ... you'd have to put time into creating the experiments. 2013-02-26 22:31 Even if you started out with the Sparkfun starter pack (or whatever it's called), there's always going to be something else, although some of those packs are quite comprehensive. 2013-02-26 22:32 Lots of LEDs in the box with whitequark in mind. ;-) 2013-02-26 22:32 oh sure. you can always add some special interest packages 2013-02-26 22:33 Example of LED flashing plus Android: http://blog.tkjelectronics.dk/2013/01/bluetooth-controlled-rgb-light-strip/ 2013-02-26 22:35 adding wireless is a problem 2013-02-26 22:36 I think a lot of the sales are generated on the promise of interesting projects, but these need people to step up, and you do see a lot of unhappy people asking questions that the vendors don't answer. 2013-02-26 22:36 making the device wireless is not a problem, adding connectivity add the same time is ;) 2013-02-26 22:37 An example of this is the Arduino shield I'm playing with for USB Host. It's a Sparkfun board derived from some guy's board where they point everyone to his site to get the library. I think I mentioned this before. 2013-02-26 22:37 guanucoluis has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 22:38 So everyone looks to him to troubleshoot their projects despite them buying Sparkfun's board. 2013-02-26 22:39 larsc: yeah, a nice little decorative antenna is easy :) 2013-02-26 22:39 paul_boddie: the joy of outsourcing :) 2013-02-26 22:39 Sparkfun are making their money on the "this will be so cool" factor without really saying what that might be. 2013-02-26 22:40 as long as it works ... :) 2013-02-26 22:40 once they have a reputation, they can start selling black boxes. no description of content, just a price tag. 2013-02-26 22:41 actually, apple could do that :) 2013-02-26 22:43 wolfspraul has quit [Quit: leaving] 2013-02-26 22:44 it looks the other way for me 2013-02-26 22:45 sparkfun is selling components and tools, not finished, polished products 2013-02-26 22:45 want an accelerometer? sure, here's one on a convenient board, with docs layout and such. 2013-02-26 22:45 they aren't going to convince you that you indeed need an accelerometer for whatever 2013-02-26 22:45 whitequark: Right, they make it easy to start but don't give you the whole product. 2013-02-26 22:46 the "wow factor" from a polished look and nice description still persists, but that's just due to inexperience of an average buyer. I don't think this was deliberate on sparkfun's side and/or their fault 2013-02-26 22:46 paul_boddie: digikey doesn't either! 2013-02-26 22:46 the joy of DIY is providing that missing link :) 2013-02-26 22:46 and I would argue that it's actually very good! 2013-02-26 22:46 for a DIY shop, of course, as wpwrak says. 2013-02-26 22:47 It appeals to people like me who think that I might have fun playing with an accelerometer (which I have, actually), and can be tempted to buy the least inconvenient thing to get me started. 2013-02-26 22:47 well, that, and because when people resort to DIY it's often because such a product does not exist or is too niché 2013-02-26 22:47 paul_boddie: well, they for sure sell them cheaper than vendor development kits 2013-02-26 22:48 like an order of magnitude, even if you consider shipping 2013-02-26 22:48 If Sparkfun only offered the surface mount component, I wouldn't go back to their site, so they are providing a service that justifies the price tag. 2013-02-26 22:48 and soldering a 3x3mm SMT accelerometer is anything but "fun" for me 2013-02-26 22:49 Well, vendor development kits are probably just a way of you getting to know the vendor's salesforce while paying their salaries. 2013-02-26 22:49 I mean, I know a guy who can attach *wires* to it 2013-02-26 22:49 I have no clue if he had to do human sacrifice to achieve that ability or what 2013-02-26 22:49 how is that even possible at all 2013-02-26 22:49 3x3mm is pretty large :) 2013-02-26 22:50 .5mm pfc-coated wires 2013-02-26 22:50 or even .3mm 2013-02-26 22:50 wpwrak: but you can't heat one pad without heating the entire device 2013-02-26 22:50 and you are stretching it quite a bit ;) 2013-02-26 22:50 He should be on that Stan Lee show featuring people with "superpowers". 2013-02-26 22:50 dandon_ has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 22:50 it's indeed very small, even in the current industry status 2013-02-26 22:50 sparkfun lives off big numbers 2013-02-26 22:51 as in amounts, not money 2013-02-26 22:51 lots of cheap devices built even cheaper. 2013-02-26 22:51 whitequark: why would heating the device a little be a problem ? 2013-02-26 22:52 dandon has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 2013-02-26 22:52 wpwrak: because the other wires will get desoldered 2013-02-26 22:52 dandon_ is now known as dandon 2013-02-26 22:52 maybe you shouldn't use the large flamethrower then ;-) 2013-02-26 22:52 and as .5mm pfc-coated wires are multiple-conductor ones, they have some internal tension 2013-02-26 22:53 which moves them off the position they were in, detaching them from the pad or even worse 2013-02-26 22:53 LunaVorax has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 2013-02-26 22:54 doesn't sound too messy. just a question of finding the right amount of heat. 2013-02-26 22:55 I've had a 30W or so iron then, temperature-regulated 2013-02-26 22:56 probably it's too much 2013-02-26 22:56 well, understandably so, that's almost 3W per square millimeter :D 2013-02-26 22:57 the main factor should be the size of the solder drop you're going to deposit. the iron doesn't need to make contact. the thermal energy in the solder will do all the work. 2013-02-26 22:58 wpwrak: not sure. surface tension forces resulted in the entirety of the solder drop of any size to be deposited all over the tip of the iron 2013-02-26 22:59 note that a pad is something about 0.8x0.4mm there 2013-02-26 22:59 you really need a very small amount of solder, and it's not easy to deposit it at all, much less cleanly 2013-02-26 23:00 well yes, just a tiny drop :) 2013-02-26 23:01 and if even this is too small, pre-tin the wire and touch it onto the pad. then timing and aim become important. 2013-02-26 23:02 of course, if you're really having such a hard time, then you may be better off making a pcb. soldering wires directly is meant to make it easier, not harder ;-) 2013-02-26 23:04 I sense a challenge in the making. 2013-02-26 23:05 * paul_boddie is, in any case, off. 2013-02-26 23:05 paul_boddie has left #qi-hardware ["Kopete 0.10 : http://kopete.kde.org"] 2013-02-26 23:07 wpwrak: it was much, much easier to just make a pcb. 2013-02-26 23:07 ah well. problem solved then :) 2013-02-26 23:07 I mean, I just *love* slapping things on a masked, pre-tinned PCB and applying a hot air gun 2013-02-26 23:08 it almost always works (except for when I'm too impatient or fail to distribute heat evenly.) 2013-02-26 23:08 everything else--wires, laser-printer-gone-pcb-maker stuff--always failed me 2013-02-26 23:10 the article http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2443836 is funny 2013-02-26 23:10 a view of FPGAs by an ignorant C developer, may I say 2013-02-26 23:11 why exactly do we need chars, ints and longs (ints!) in an FPGA if we have integral types of parametric width? 2013-02-26 23:11 also the suggestion to convert celsius to farenheit with floating point is hilarious 2013-02-26 23:12 what a waste of resources 2013-02-26 23:14 stop slapping C everywhere already. 2013-02-26 23:15 it's correct in that the current EDA tools are crappy, though... 2013-02-26 23:17 stuck in the 90's 2013-02-26 23:19 I guess we really need at least wolfspraul's work. 2013-02-26 23:19 and, possibly, one more iteration after it... 2013-02-26 23:20 (as with proprietary cc's/gcc/clang) 2013-02-26 23:20 pcercuei has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 2013-02-26 23:31 guanucoluis has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 2013-02-26 23:37 jekhor has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 2013-02-26 23:50 kuribas has joined #qi-hardware 2013-02-26 23:54 kuribas has quit [Client Quit]