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2013-02-12 12:07 <xiangfu> lindi-: Hi you patch on toped have merged in http://code.google.com/p/toped/source/detail?r=2363
2013-02-12 12:07 <lindi-> xiangfu: that was fast :)
2013-02-12 12:08 <xiangfu> for 2) Vcs-Git: I think I will just remove that lines. that is simple and fast for me.
2013-02-12 12:08 <lindi-> xiangfu: that's totally ok
2013-02-12 12:11 <wpwrak> xiangfu: btw, a while ago, you made a few changes to integrate atben/atusb in more recent openwrt kernels. in which tree are these changes ?
2013-02-12 12:11 <xiangfu> for the 3) lintian complains. I always just ingore those warnings. since I found that the toped libs are not fit to party executables.
2013-02-12 12:11 <xiangfu> wpwrak: let me check.
2013-02-12 12:12 <lindi-> xiangfu: party executables?
2013-02-12 12:13 <xiangfu> lindi-: I mean those libs are not fit to link
2013-02-12 12:13 <lindi-> xiangfu: yep, so maybe they shouldn't be in that directory?
2013-02-12 12:13 <lindi-> xiangfu: maybe /usr/lib/toped/ ?
2013-02-12 12:15 <lindi-> xiangfu: with    find  /usr/lib -type f -mindepth  1 -name "*.so"     you can see a lot of such private libraries
2013-02-12 12:16 <xiangfu> wpwrak: a small change is http://pastebin.com/hyUBCgnr for fix atusb cannot build as modular
2013-02-12 12:17 <xiangfu> wpwrak: other changes I think some functions rename for sync with linux-3.3.8.
2013-02-12 12:22 <xiangfu> lindi-: is there a easy way change those .so files to /usr/lib/toped without touch the upstream code?
2013-02-12 12:23 <lindi-> xiangfu: ./configure --libdir might do the trick if you are lucky
2013-02-12 12:23 <xiangfu> lindi-: thansk. I will try that.
2013-02-12 12:24 <wpwrak> thanks !
2013-02-12 12:24 <xiangfu> lindi-: are you a DD?
2013-02-12 12:24 <lindi-> xiangfu: yep
2013-02-12 12:24 <xiangfu> nice.
2013-02-12 12:24 <lindi-> xiangfu: http://codesearch.debian.net/search?q=--libdir%3D%2Fusr%2Flib%2F[a-z]
2013-02-12 12:25 <xiangfu> I can apply that after several month later. :(
2013-02-12 12:26 <lindi-> xiangfu: the nagios and lighttpd examples might match your scenario ^
2013-02-12 12:26 <xiangfu> yes. I just trigger the build.
2013-02-12 12:27 <lindi-> xiangfu: don't let that slow you down, if you package useful software and do it well it is usually easy to get somebody to sponsor it
2013-02-12 12:27 <lindi-> xiangfu: mostly people have problems finding sponsors when they package something totally esoteric with zero users
2013-02-12 12:29 <xiangfu> yes. I tried to ask help in [Debian Electronics Packaging Team] but no one reply me. I am working on fpgatools and toped.
2013-02-12 12:30 <xiangfu> which si all about electronics. :-)
2013-02-12 12:30 <xiangfu> the toped upstream authors already use toped libs in their chip design.
2013-02-12 12:31 <xiangfu> btw: Fedora already include toped
2013-02-12 12:32 <lindi-> xiangfu: team mailing lists are bit difficult since nobody feels like taking the responsibility :/
2013-02-12 12:32 <xiangfu> lindi-: too many details on debian packaging :)
2013-02-12 12:32 <lindi-> xiangfu: toped looks ok to me, fpgatools is probably not ready to be included in debian in current state however?
2013-02-12 12:34 <lindi-> xiangfu: for me the most confusing part was how git is used with debian packaging in some teams
2013-02-12 12:35 <wolfspraul> lindi-: just for functionality, in today's state fpgatools can absolutely be used to program (one particular) fpga chip, the xc6slx9
2013-02-12 12:35 <wolfspraul> versioning wise, it's 0.01 :-)
2013-02-12 12:35 <lindi-> wolfspraul: yes it's great but not for the masses yet :)
2013-02-12 12:36 <wolfspraul> sure, and never will be
2013-02-12 12:36 <wolfspraul> what is the goal?
2013-02-12 12:36 <wolfspraul> we need to find more exotic tools/libs that are included as a proof that it is worthy of inclusion? :-)
2013-02-12 12:36 <lindi-> wolfspraul: heh
2013-02-12 12:36 <wolfspraul> it works today, and is the most advanced free tool to program that kind of chip
2013-02-12 12:37 <wolfspraul> by far, since I am not aware of anything even close
2013-02-12 12:37 <lindi-> wolfspraul: well personally I try to only upload stuff that I have tested. would need to buy that chip first :)
2013-02-12 12:37 <wolfspraul> ah ok, that makes sense
2013-02-12 12:37 <wolfspraul> that's at least a strong argument :-)
2013-02-12 12:37 <lekernel> hi wolfspraul
2013-02-12 12:37 <wolfspraul> actually I don't care that much whether there are strong reasons or not for inclusion or not
2013-02-12 12:37 <lindi-> wolfspraul: but don't take this wrong, we have a growing fan group in our monthly free software meetings
2013-02-12 12:37 <wolfspraul> I'm definitely not going to spend time arguing about that. BUT ... I am very much interested in quality feedback that helps improving the tool
2013-02-12 12:37 <lindi-> wolfspraul: in fact, next thursday we are probably going to browse your git log at least briefly
2013-02-12 12:38 <wolfspraul> and that's why I like the process of Debianization
2013-02-12 12:38 <lindi-> I guess if I had time to play with it I could buy the chip and learn to use it
2013-02-12 12:38 <wolfspraul> so the argument "I can only talk about things I use" makes 100% sense to me
2013-02-12 12:38 <wolfspraul> the argument "it's not ready" not so much
2013-02-12 12:38 <lekernel> wolfspraul, did you get my email about JTAG pods?
2013-02-12 12:39 <lindi-> wolfspraul: yeah I don't know how functional fpgatools is, I understood the led blinking example was done just last year
2013-02-12 12:39 <wolfspraul> yes
2013-02-12 12:39 <wolfspraul> that's about as far as it gets
2013-02-12 12:39 <wolfspraul> but keep in mind - it's a library
2013-02-12 12:39 <wolfspraul> I am working on making the library more capable, but it's still and for the time being will be a -dev thing
2013-02-12 12:40 <wolfspraul> like a programming language
2013-02-12 12:40 <wolfspraul> so when is a programming language "ready"?
2013-02-12 12:40 <lindi-> wolfspraul: good question :)
2013-02-12 12:40 <wolfspraul> I'd say when the syntax is kind of stable, makes sense, etc.
2013-02-12 12:40 <wolfspraul> so I rather work on better documentation, more entry points, more examples, etc.
2013-02-12 12:40 <whitequark> wolfspraul: no no no no, don't bring your flaky measures of my perfect syntax here :D
2013-02-12 12:40 <wolfspraul> that I will do, on my own. plus things from feedback that 'make sense' to me
2013-02-12 12:40 <lindi-> wolfspraul: yeah please don't take me wrong
2013-02-12 12:41 <wolfspraul> but as for 'when it's ready' - you need to define that
2013-02-12 12:41 <wolfspraul> no, I totally don't. I appreciate your feedback!
2013-02-12 12:41 <wolfspraul> it's an obscure exotic thing, for sure
2013-02-12 12:41 <wolfspraul> but it needs to be by definition, the only way out of obscurity is the very path we are on now
2013-02-12 12:42 <wolfspraul> including your very correct observations
2013-02-12 12:42 <wolfspraul> I would version it 0.01 today, for sure
2013-02-12 12:42 <wolfspraul> in good old humble foss style
2013-02-12 12:42 <whitequark> wolfspraul: on the serious side; I'm not sure if it is a good idea to bring young software to Debian
2013-02-12 12:42 <lindi-> I have some fpga-knowledgeable friends, if I could get them play with that chip maybe they could help
2013-02-12 12:42 <whitequark> it then tends to stick around in very obsolete version
2013-02-12 12:42 <whitequark> just my 2¢
2013-02-12 12:43 <xiangfu> lindi-: --libdir works fine. uploading...
2013-02-12 12:44 <lindi-> xiangfu: did you run lintian before upload? ;)
2013-02-12 12:44 <lindi-> whitequark: yeah especially if it is easy to compile from git
2013-02-12 12:44 <xiangfu> lindi-: yes. I think those warnings are not important.: http://pastebin.com/JfE0h26m
2013-02-12 12:44 <lindi-> whitequark: however, we can upload it debian but never release it as part of any stable release
2013-02-12 12:49 <wolfspraul> lindi-: if you follow sources, there's not that much going on lately
2013-02-12 12:49 <wolfspraul> I am slowly digging away at the distributed memory stuff lately, filling in bits and pieces everywhere
2013-02-12 12:49 <wolfspraul> maybe another week or two in dist-mem
2013-02-12 12:49 <wolfspraul> after that, another big block, will be block memory
2013-02-12 12:49 <wolfspraul> that will be at least 1 month or so, LOTS of pieces there, for sure
2013-02-12 12:50 <wolfspraul> after that some more infrastructure to improve programmability, more simple routing etc.
2013-02-12 12:50 <wolfspraul> better examples
2013-02-12 12:50 <wolfspraul> then I want to start with a small core, J1
2013-02-12 12:50 <wolfspraul> I will try whether it makes sense to program the chip via a llvm backend
2013-02-12 12:50 <wolfspraul> that's roughly what you can expect in the next few months
2013-02-12 12:51 <wolfspraul> but progress is slower now mostly because I am dealing with the effects of a growing codebase, so it gets harder to make changes
2013-02-12 12:51 <lindi-> whitequark: I have done work with LLVM but mostly with IR encoding
2013-02-12 12:51 <wolfspraul> but good news is that I'm not doing this the first time, and I think so far the codebase remains manageable and valuable for the changes I need to apply as I'm going forward
2013-02-12 12:52 <wolfspraul> that doesn't rule out a complete rewrite one day though, maybe when I switch to artix-7 (totally not on the radar right now)
2013-02-12 12:52 <wolfspraul> so much just as background noise if you check the sources again :-)
2013-02-12 12:55 <xiangfu> lindi-: just fyi. a new toped upload to  http://mentors.debian.net/debian/pool/main/t/toped/toped_0.0+r2366-1.dsc
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2013-02-12 13:00 <xiangfu> lindi-: you can take a look when you have time.
2013-02-12 13:00 <wolfspraul> lekernel: no sorry, I don't have those pods right now
2013-02-12 13:00 <wolfspraul> lindi-: please keep the fpgatools feedback coming
2013-02-12 13:00 <lekernel> wolfspraul, who has them?
2013-02-12 13:00 <wolfspraul> if you want hw to play with, maybe we can build some little something for you :-)
2013-02-12 13:00 <lekernel> Adam?
2013-02-12 13:05 <wpwrak> whitequark: (old stuff stays round forever) i think that's a very good point, especially in this case where still lots of interface changes are likely
2013-02-12 13:07 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: i think getting it into debian should be an extremely low if not negative priority at the moment. since it's a library, any users will have to know how to compile things anyway, and there are no applications that depend on it. so having it in debian give you very little practical value.
2013-02-12 13:08 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: however, what still seems to be missing is to get the word out. get people to experiment with it, provide feedback. that way, you can stabilize the interfaces.
2013-02-12 13:11 <lindi-> wpwrak: yep you need to reach the people who have the chip or who want to buy it
2013-02-12 13:11 <wolfspraul> it's a programming language, it will always stay like this
2013-02-12 13:11 <wolfspraul> if someone wants to make use of it, they will find it
2013-02-12 13:13 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: naw, what you have now is a very low-level interface. when other things may be layered on top. and you may want to spread out at the bottom too, for example to different chip sizes or different chip generations.
2013-02-12 13:13 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: how you package all this is a largely orthogonal problem
2013-02-12 13:15 <wpwrak> lindi-: exactly. there has to be a board people can go and buy. can be custom made or something that already exists. but there must be an easy way that also leads through the integration quagmire.
2013-02-12 13:16 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: and of course, documentation :) seems that you're working on that. i wish i could help there, but i'm running out of time :-(
2013-02-12 13:18 <wpwrak> so the items needed for success are 1) a cute demo to catch people, 2) documentation to give them an idea of what to expect, 3) a board they can get easily, for their own experiments, 4) documentation to tell them how to use the library/language, 5) a reasonably simple way to generate and run their "hello world"
2013-02-12 13:21 <wpwrak> of course, 4) should not only be about the syntax but also the semantics. e.g., with a brief overview of the FPGA organization and the structures things refer to. part of that could be taken from xilinx (or other) documentation, but it may be helpful to have at least an overview, so that people don't have to jump around among dozens of documents
2013-02-12 13:22 <wpwrak> regarding the hw, if you choose to make a custom board, then, well, you have to make that and produce a number of them. or find someone who will produce them.
2013-02-12 13:23 <wpwrak> if you choose to use an off-the-shelf board, then you may need to adapt the library for its chip, and test the critter. in the process, also integration of the tools needed to operate the board will happen
2013-02-12 13:24 <wpwrak> you can also try a multi-stage approach: just make a demo and dump whatever you have, then hope that someone else picks up tasks like finding/making hardware for it
2013-02-12 13:25 <wpwrak> that's a risky approach, though, since we already know that people are very reluctant to get involved at such tasks. also, this will unavoidably cause a longer delay between first demo and actual hardware, so you'll not be able to "ride the hype"
2013-02-12 13:27 <wolfspraul> no no :-) my plan is entirely different. if someone wants to use this for anything, they need to drive the use cases forward
2013-02-12 13:28 <wolfspraul> some things are on the slow cooker, this one will slow-cook...
2013-02-12 13:29 <wpwrak> how do you expect anyone who could drive it forward to find it ? right now, you're reaching basically a small group of hobbyists who can't commit to any effort of that scale
2013-02-12 13:29 <wpwrak> (even though they may be able to contribute a lot with time, a piece at a time)
2013-02-12 13:30 <lindi-> if we got one such chip to our hacklab and a hello world I'm sure we might get some contributors :)
2013-02-12 13:35 <lekernel> wolfspraul, ping
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