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2013-02-06 03:31 <danlench1> hi all, i need to talk to someone about hardware development for an FOSS project
2013-02-06 03:31 <danlench1> we will be launching a kickstarter project soon. the software is ready but i would like to offer a hardware solution as well
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2013-02-06 03:35 <danlench1> i need 1 or 2  SATA, 4 or 5 ethernet, 2 usb, and a way to provide 802.11* that can be upgraded
2013-02-06 03:36 <danlench1> per unit cost on 1k 5k 10k 50k intervals
2013-02-06 03:37 <danlench1> my emain is daniel@nofolder.com
2013-02-06 03:37 <danlench1> ^email
2013-02-06 03:39 <wpwrak> hmm, i don't think anyone here is ready to do such things
2013-02-06 03:39 <wpwrak> (here) on this channel
2013-02-06 03:40 <danlench1> wpwrak: any suggestions
2013-02-06 03:40 <danlench1> are you involved with qi
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2013-02-06 03:41 <wpwrak> the hardware requirements are a bit tricky. maybe there's something out there that already exists. else, you'd need a custom design. or try to adjust the specs.
2013-02-06 03:41 <wpwrak> well yes, i'm involved with qi-hw. but i'm not sure what you think that means :)
2013-02-06 03:41 <danlench1> well i am looking for purpose built board
2013-02-06 03:42 <danlench1> well, i'm involved with alot of things as well ;)
2013-02-06 03:42 <danlench1> i'm preparing a kickstarter project
2013-02-06 03:43 <danlench1> think open source cross platform time capsule like device with dropbox like capabilities
2013-02-06 03:43 <danlench1> the software is done, i would like to provide a hardware option
2013-02-06 03:44 <danlench1> so i'm looking for manufacturers
2013-02-06 03:44 <wpwrak> maybe post to the qi-hw list. while i haven't seen any discussion about people actually picking up manufacturing tasks (except sharism and tuxbrain, but tuxbrain is dead and sharism doesn't do much anymore), there may be lurkers
2013-02-06 03:45 <danlench1> ok i will
2013-02-06 03:45 <danlench1> would you know who does the pcb for qi?
2013-02-06 03:45 <danlench1> well pcb + components
2013-02-06 03:46 <danlench1> thats what i'm really hunting for
2013-02-06 03:46 <wpwrak> you mean the pcb fab ? or the smt fab ?
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2013-02-06 03:46 <wpwrak> in the milkymist project, i think pcbs were made and smt'ed in taiwan
2013-02-06 03:47 <wpwrak> i think sharism sourced the components directly and then brought them to the smt fab
2013-02-06 03:47 <danlench1> right, probably, but who
2013-02-06 03:47 <danlench1> i mean i could do the smt in my garage if i had enough ovens
2013-02-06 03:47 <wpwrak> wolfspraul would know
2013-02-06 03:47 <danlench1> lol
2013-02-06 03:47 <wpwrak> good luck with the yield :)
2013-02-06 03:48 <danlench1> right!! late nights
2013-02-06 03:48 <wpwrak> and i think anything > 100 units would get extremely boring
2013-02-06 03:48 <danlench1> no, i need to price 10k at least
2013-02-06 03:49 <wpwrak> you're in the US ?
2013-02-06 03:49 <danlench1> all thoes pick and place makerbots
2013-02-06 03:49 <danlench1> yeah
2013-02-06 03:49 <danlench1> u
2013-02-06 03:49 <wpwrak> you may also want to try to get domestic quotes for a first estimate
2013-02-06 03:50 <wpwrak> at least for the pcb, that's easy
2013-02-06 03:50 <danlench1> it's on the list ;)
2013-02-06 03:50 <danlench1> i appreciate your time, i would love to throw this to an open source hw org
2013-02-06 03:51 <wpwrak> then you can check your components on digi-key, subtract 10% for volume and maybe 10-20% for asia and you'd have a rough idea
2013-02-06 03:51 <danlench1> yep, the case is the other thing ;)
2013-02-06 03:52 <wpwrak> unfortunately, in the qi-hw universe we're not quite set up for contract manufacturing. at least not anymore. would have been a possibility maybe a year ago or two.
2013-02-06 03:52 <wpwrak> ah yes, cases are fun :)
2013-02-06 03:53 <danlench1> ugg
2013-02-06 03:53 <danlench1> i didnt have a developer then :/
2013-02-06 03:53 <wpwrak> milkymist had a fairly nice solution. all 2D cuts
2013-02-06 03:53 <danlench1> right, KISS
2013-02-06 03:53 <wpwrak> (solution) for its case
2013-02-06 03:54 <wpwrak> aye :)
2013-02-06 03:55 <danlench1> wolfspraul: do you by anychance know who does the pcb and smt for qi? i'm looing for a manurfacturer for my project and would love a reccomendation
2013-02-06 03:55 <danlench1> hows that
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2013-02-06 03:56 <wolfspraul> thanks for asking but you don't want to hear my recommendation
2013-02-06 03:56 <wolfspraul> :-)
2013-02-06 03:56 <danlench1> lol, at least  i put my work machine on the line first
2013-02-06 03:56 <danlench1> uh oh
2013-02-06 03:56 <danlench1> ok, maybe a warning then. i'm ok with that also ;)
2013-02-06 03:57 <wpwrak> sounds as if you need a hw designer, too
2013-02-06 03:57 <danlench1> i have a few on the list but always appreciate another
2013-02-06 03:58 <danlench1> arm or atom, needs to run minimal fedora or centos
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2013-02-06 03:59 <danlench1> these will all be for the home or "small" users
2013-02-06 03:59 <danlench1> the enterprise can use their own HW
2013-02-06 03:59 <danlench1> still free of charge
2013-02-06 03:59 <wpwrak> in your place, i'd first try to find a board/device that already does more or less what you need. it's a lot easier to source an existing device than making a new one.
2013-02-06 03:59 <danlench1> the mobile clients will be $5 to fund development
2013-02-06 03:59 <danlench1> well...
2013-02-06 04:00 <wpwrak> the large number of ethers combined with SATA could be a problem. does this thing really have to be a router/switch ?
2013-02-06 04:02 <danlench1> where is that link...
2013-02-06 04:02 <danlench1> this will work: http://news.softpedia.com/newsImage/Leaked-ASUS-Eee-D200-Could-be-a-Home-Media-Server-3.jpg/
2013-02-06 04:03 <danlench1> the router/switch integration will simplify the dropbox like capabilities
2013-02-06 04:03 <danlench1> for the home user
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2013-02-06 04:03 <danlench1> the d200 s basically a heavy duty prototype
2013-02-06 04:04 <wpwrak> that box doesn't look so bad
2013-02-06 04:04 <danlench1> released in 2009 for around 700us
2013-02-06 04:04 <wpwrak> may even have room for your SATA disks
2013-02-06 04:04 <danlench1> i hve a few now from amazon at 150us
2013-02-06 04:04 <danlench1> no one at asus has ever heard of it
2013-02-06 04:04 <wpwrak> ;-)
2013-02-06 04:05 <danlench1> 10 techs later and none of them
2013-02-06 04:05 <danlench1> a quiet failure
2013-02-06 04:05 <danlench1> but what a cool idea
2013-02-06 04:05 <wpwrak> people who were working on that in 2009 probably have retired long since :)
2013-02-06 04:05 <wpwrak> it seems a bit bulky
2013-02-06 04:05 <danlench1> integrated UPS also, its a lipo battery similar to a laptops
2013-02-06 04:06 <danlench1> about 4in wide 12 tall
2013-02-06 04:06 <wpwrak> i'm beginning to see where the price comes from :)
2013-02-06 04:07 <danlench1> dvdrw, 2 3.5hdd, 2 fans, touchscreen all that other stuff
2013-02-06 04:07 <wpwrak> batteries aren't such a good idea. they die within a few years. and then people will come to you asking for new ones.
2013-02-06 04:07 <danlench1> its tow boards with a pcb bridging them
2013-02-06 04:07 <wpwrak> urgh
2013-02-06 04:07 <danlench1> its a beotch to get apart also ;)
2013-02-06 04:08 <danlench1> yeah, its too much
2013-02-06 04:08 <wpwrak> good old crowbar not working ? :)
2013-02-06 04:08 <danlench1> but good for dev,
2013-02-06 04:09 <danlench1> so any HW man suggestions?
2013-02-06 04:09 <danlench1> :D
2013-02-06 04:10 <wpwrak> btw, if you have two ether ports, you could already integrate it into an existing home network without using extra ports
2013-02-06 04:10 <wpwrak> and two ether + SATA may be findable
2013-02-06 04:10 <danlench1> yes, it is
2013-02-06 04:10 <wpwrak> wolfspraul: we still haven't heard your comment ;-)
2013-02-06 04:12 <wolfspraul> which you can imagine, it's easy: don't do hardware
2013-02-06 04:12 <wolfspraul> work for a manufacturer for a while if you really want to
2013-02-06 04:12 <wolfspraul> from what you write, there's just too much missing/imagined
2013-02-06 04:13 <wolfspraul> of course that is the very kind of feedback the successful guys blissfully ignore, but that power is entirely up to you
2013-02-06 04:13 <wolfspraul> I am still saying: save yourself and the world that bucket of wasted energy :-)
2013-02-06 04:13 <danlench1> there is a jetway board that is looking promising
2013-02-06 04:13 <danlench1> http://www.jetwaycomputer.com/spec/ADE4INLANG.pdf
2013-02-06 04:14 <danlench1> http://www.jetwaycomputer.com/NF9B.html
2013-02-06 04:14 <wpwrak> that;s just the ether
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2013-02-06 04:15 <wpwrak> ah, and that would be a 2x ether solution
2013-02-06 04:15 <wpwrak> and with plenty of SATA interfaces
2013-02-06 04:16 <danlench1> its too much
2013-02-06 04:17 <danlench1> wolfspraul: i appreciate your words
2013-02-06 04:17 <wpwrak> and i concur with wolfgang: since you're aiming for a relatively high-performance design, which also has a fair number of peripherals, you're likely to face a very long and costly development process
2013-02-06 04:18 <wpwrak> so a much better approach would be to find something you can just OEM
2013-02-06 04:18 <danlench1> well i plan to run the kickstarter in 2 projects, one for the software only one for hardware only
2013-02-06 04:18 <danlench1> oem would be great
2013-02-06 04:18 <danlench1> been looking for a month
2013-02-06 04:18 <danlench1> new stuff every day
2013-02-06 04:19 <danlench1> time for me to retire for the nite
2013-02-06 04:19 <wpwrak> maybe have some vacations in taipei and shanghai (or shenzen ?), and visit the local markets :)
2013-02-06 04:19 <danlench1> thanks so much for your input
2013-02-06 04:19 <wpwrak> np. good luck !
2013-02-06 04:19 <danlench1> :D
2013-02-06 04:19 <danlench1> i'll be back ;)
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2013-02-06 04:21 <wpwrak> sigh. why doesn't just once someone pop up who wants to make hardware who a) already has the bag of money necessary and b) wants to make, say, a new nanonote ? it would be such a pleasure to help with such a thing ...
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2013-02-06 07:44 <whitequark> wpwrak: I wonder, how much money would be required for a new NN?
2013-02-06 07:44 <whitequark> lower bound :D
2013-02-06 07:44 <whitequark> the upper one is obviously +∞
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2013-02-06 09:55 <wpwrak> whitequark: hmm, production-ready design in the order of 100-150 kUSD
2013-02-06 09:57 <wpwrak> perhaps more 150 than 100, considering that the case may be a bit of work
2013-02-06 10:06 <whitequark> hm
2013-02-06 10:07 <whitequark> where did you get the money for first Ben, then?
2013-02-06 10:07 <wpwrak> as far as i know, that came from wolfgang's savings
2013-02-06 10:08 <wpwrak> also, the first ben wasn't an original design. it was licensed from a company that sold it as a dictionary
2013-02-06 10:10 <whitequark> I see
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2013-02-06 14:30 <paul_boddie> Having read the logs, I wonder if danlench1 should be talking to the arm-netbook people. Although I'm not sure whether 4 or 5 Ethernet ports is on their roadmap.
2013-02-06 14:30 <paul_boddie> Maybe a router/switch manufacturer, then.
2013-02-06 14:31 <whitequark> I'm fairly sure that a dumb switch chip is trivial to obtain
2013-02-06 14:31 <whitequark> and is not very demanding
2013-02-06 14:31 <wpwrak> not sure if many of them are interested in making custom designs
2013-02-06 14:31 <paul_boddie> It sounds like a super-sized FreedomBox. :-)
2013-02-06 14:32 <wpwrak> the problem is that the whole system is fairly high-end. you need a very well-equipped shop to make such a thing work.
2013-02-06 14:33 <paul_boddie> By the way, wpwrak, looking at the documentation for the Arduino shield I was talking about, it appears that feeding 5V to the shield's VIN pin is necessary. The circuit then ensures that the controller gets 3.3V. And there was I thinking I could skip over those pages in the datasheet. :-)
2013-02-06 14:34 <wpwrak> there's your problem :)
2013-02-06 14:34 <wpwrak> could you feed the 3.3 V directly into the 3.3 V rail, ignoring the 5 V side ?
2013-02-06 14:34 <paul_boddie> No, that didn't seem to work.
2013-02-06 14:36 <wpwrak> :(
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2013-02-06 14:38 <paul_boddie> USB would need 5V anyway, as I understand it, so some external power source is probably required. I was using USB as that power source (through the Arduino), but that's cheating. :-)
2013-02-06 14:39 <wpwrak> well yes, external power is always a solution ...
2013-02-06 14:39 <wpwrak> just make sure you don't connect the ben to any 5 V net. it may resent that.
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2013-02-06 14:42 <paul_boddie> Indeed.
2013-02-06 14:43 <paul_boddie> Here, I assume that the shield's designer followed the advice on those other datasheet pages I wasn't interested in reading. ;-)
2013-02-06 14:45 <wpwrak> heh :)
2013-02-06 14:46 <wpwrak> isn't arduino switching to 3.3 V, too, for their next generation ? i thought i read something like that. or was that some arduino-like board ?
2013-02-06 14:46 <wpwrak> 5 V is so 1980es ...
2013-02-06 14:46 <C-Keen> there are several 3.3V variants
2013-02-06 14:47 <C-Keen> arduino pro or something for example
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2013-02-06 15:04 <wpwrak> ah yes. has a 3 V and a 5 V variant.
2013-02-06 15:10 <paul_boddie> Arduino Due is 3.3V (see the warning on http://arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoBoardDue), as are some of the older models.
2013-02-06 15:11 <wpwrak> aah, DUE is that next generation thing i meant ! yes, even has a decent core
2013-02-06 15:13 <C-Keen> is the DUE the one with the arm core?
2013-02-06 15:13 <wpwrak> yeah, AT91SAM3X8E
2013-02-06 15:13 <wpwrak> (Cortex-M3)
2013-02-06 15:13 <C-Keen> nice
2013-02-06 15:17 <paul_boddie> Competition is getting pretty stiff in the low-end ARM space, though: http://www.st.com/internet/evalboard/product/252419.jsp (for example)
2013-02-06 15:17 <wpwrak> it's not exactly hard anymore to make a little ARM board :) i guess the brand name may help arduino, though
2013-02-06 15:21 <C-Keen> plus their grown ready to use sensor gadgets
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2013-02-06 16:05 <danlench> paul_boddie: i am on the arm-network channel as well
2013-02-06 16:06 <danlench> wpwrak: i'm impressed with the nanonote for sure, just my phone and laptop and tablet and...
2013-02-06 16:07 <danlench> i appreciate everyones comments totally
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2013-02-06 16:13 <wpwrak> danlench: you have a nanonote ?
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2013-02-06 16:21 <danlench> no i do not, but i may after our conversations ;)
2013-02-06 16:22 <wpwrak> whee ! :)
2013-02-06 16:22 <danlench> where is the order form
2013-02-06 16:22 <danlench> or do you want to sell me yours
2013-02-06 16:23 <wpwrak> for the US, right from the source should be best: https://sharism.cc/
2013-02-06 16:23 <wpwrak> naw, i keep mine :)
2013-02-06 16:24 <danlench> but if its autographed...
2013-02-06 16:25 <paul_boddie> I got mine from Pulster but that's because it was in the EU and thus less complicated.
2013-02-06 16:25 <wpwrak> that would be a large detour ;-)
2013-02-06 16:25 <danlench> does it have wifi
2013-02-06 16:25 <wpwrak> (autographing)
2013-02-06 16:25 <wpwrak> nope, no wireless. there's a IEEE 802.15.4 module you can get separately, though.
2013-02-06 16:26 <paul_boddie> No, there are various strategies for using WiFi with it, but it isn't built in.
2013-02-06 16:26 <wpwrak> http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/wpan/web/
2013-02-06 16:26 <danlench> i have a meeting in 30 min that i have to prepare for, i'll be back ;)
2013-02-06 16:26 <wpwrak> and yes, there's also a hard to find uSD wifi module. not sure if there are any other portable wifi solutions for the ben.
2013-02-06 16:27 <paul_boddie> By the way, wpwrak, on that microSD Sniffer product page there was someone wanting to use that board to break out to a normal SD card socket which they then intended to use with an Eye-Fi card.
2013-02-06 16:29 <wpwrak> hmm, at some point those appendages will become a mechanical problem ...
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2013-02-06 16:35 <paul_boddie> I'm not advocating EyeFi usage - I'm not sure how easy it is to make it a general WiFi solution or that it costs much less than that Spectec card once you add on the price of all the bits needed to connect it - but I wonder whether anyone looked into using one as a quick hack before now.
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2013-02-06 16:47 <whitequark> there isn't even a linux driver for eyefi
2013-02-06 17:07 <lekernel> wolfspraul, you may find this interesting: http://www.altera.com/literature/wp/wp-01139-timing-model.pdf
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2013-02-06 20:39 <crunch> hey
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2013-02-06 21:50 <kristianpaul> hi
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