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2013-01-28 08:05 <mammoth> hi everyone. any body knows about bios?
2013-01-28 08:14 <wpwrak> ah, wasn't that the part of CP/M that implemented device-specific functions ?
2013-01-28 08:16 <wpwrak> yeah, i remembered it correctly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CP/M#Basic_Input_Output_System
2013-01-28 08:17 <mammoth> yeah thats the bios i'm talking about. I need to get my hands on its source code.
2013-01-28 08:18 <larsc> mammoth: http://coreboot.org
2013-01-28 08:19 <mammoth> yes i have been there. thanks. but i need intel based motherborad bios source code
2013-01-28 08:19 <mammoth> like the recent core boards
2013-01-28 08:19 <larsc> well, I guess you need to talk to intel then
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2013-01-28 08:36 <wpwrak> hmm. were intel involved in the making of the BIOSes of CP/M ? that's an interesting question. at the beginning, maybe, while people were using 8080 and 8085. but then, zilog pretty much took over with the Z80.
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2013-01-28 08:37 <wpwrak> oh, and is it CP/M 2.x, CP/M 3, or another version ?
2013-01-28 08:38 <wpwrak> this page has quite a bit of CP/M sources: http://www.cpm.z80.de/source.html
2013-01-28 08:40 <mammoth> wpwrak I'm trying to find recent bios of intel core based motherboards source code
2013-01-28 08:41 <mammoth> so that i can re write coreboot
2013-01-28 08:41 <wpwrak> oh, that's a very different kind of BIOS then ! generations later.
2013-01-28 08:41 <wpwrak> pity. the old stuff had a certain charm to it ...
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2013-01-28 08:44 <mammoth> thanks for your help \m/
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2013-01-28 09:35 <lindi-> mammoth: note that nowadays there's also the embedded controller that does some tasks
2013-01-28 09:35 <lindi-> mammoth: bios updates for laptops often also update the code running on the EC
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2013-01-28 11:21 <mth> I want to merge the "packages" branch of gmenu2x back into "master"
2013-01-28 11:21 <mth> anyone available to test it on the NanoNote after the merge?
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2013-01-28 21:35 <viric> does anybody know what's required to do to get long lasting li-ion batteries?
2013-01-28 21:38 <whitequark> viric: controlled charge/discharge
2013-01-28 21:39 <viric> yep, I imagined so.
2013-01-28 21:39 <whitequark> afaik you generally need to keep your discharge current under 10C, and charge it with millivolt precision with a specialized controller
2013-01-28 21:39 <whitequark> (10C) that's in the datasheet for your battery
2013-01-28 21:39 <viric> is that what notebooks do?
2013-01-28 21:39 <whitequark> viric: yeah
2013-01-28 21:40 <whitequark> they also have some quite complex circuitry for balancing the cells
2013-01-28 21:40 <whitequark> you likely don't need that
2013-01-28 21:40 <viric> well I know some people that manually discharge completely and recharge the batteries
2013-01-28 21:40 <viric> in notebook
2013-01-28 21:40 <whitequark> idiots
2013-01-28 21:40 <whitequark> unless the battery is really old
2013-01-28 21:40 <viric> I thought the same
2013-01-28 21:40 <whitequark> and I'm talking 2002 or so.
2013-01-28 21:41 <whitequark> google for "smart battery system"
2013-01-28 21:41 <viric> And keeping the battery not charged also destroys it quite quickly
2013-01-28 21:41 <whitequark> you can actually hook into the system and reuse notebook batteries
2013-01-28 21:41 <viric> (From my experience)
2013-01-28 21:41 <whitequark> check out TI's eval kits
2013-01-28 21:41 <viric> ahm interesting.
2013-01-28 21:41 <viric> I take note.
2013-01-28 21:41 <whitequark> I know a guy who did that
2013-01-28 21:41 <viric> doesn't li-ion blow up?
2013-01-28 21:42 <whitequark> viric: it does
2013-01-28 21:42 <whitequark> but you need to torture it quite a bit
2013-01-28 21:42 <whitequark> even the most simplistic battery controllers prevent that
2013-01-28 21:43 <whitequark> well, not quite. undervoltage is what's they protect from. overvoltage sometimes goes through.
2013-01-28 21:43 <viric> ok
2013-01-28 21:43 <whitequark> good ones monitor all three: overcurrent, overvoltage and undervoltage
2013-01-28 21:43 <whitequark> and they also check for the actual capacity, enforce correct charging cycles, etc.
2013-01-28 21:47 <viric> thank you
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2013-01-28 22:31 <wpwrak> shouldn't "full discharge" be okay ? i.e., the controller ought to stop the discharge before it reaches damaging levels.
2013-01-28 22:32 <wpwrak> all this assuming you don't intend to long-time store the batteries in that state, which they would of course resent
2013-01-28 22:36 <whitequark> wpwrak: I guess the problem was in storage
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2013-01-28 22:40 <wpwrak> ah, the "let's keep them safe and drain all that dangerous energy before they go in the locker" fallacy :)
2013-01-28 22:41 <wpwrak> one big problem with batteries is that each technology has its own set of rules and use instructions often got mixed up. or, in some cases, appear to have gotten mixed up but weren't.
2013-01-28 22:43 <wpwrak> e.g., the "give your li-* batteries a full charge before first use" would sound like coming from the NiCd era, but it could also be for the benefit of "smart" battery monitors that determine the battery capacity that way. (the monitors will eventually figure it out even if you don't do this, but they may show an incorrect capacity until then)
2013-01-28 22:44 <viric> yes, problem in storage
2013-01-28 22:44 <viric> is there any good way to store a battery?
2013-01-28 22:44 <viric> li-ion
2013-01-28 22:47 <wpwrak> the best way is to avoid storage :) because whatever you do, they will age.
2013-01-28 22:47 <viric> aha
2013-01-28 22:47 <viric> what about batteries in shops?
2013-01-28 22:47 <whitequark> viric: 50% of charge, and then cool it down
2013-01-28 22:47 <whitequark> they're generally charged to 50% at the factory.
2013-01-28 22:47 <wpwrak> the second best way, is you charge them. i've seen recommendations ranging from completely full, at least half full, to something like a quarter full.
2013-01-28 22:48 <wpwrak> and then keep them in a cool place. not sure if fridge is okay or if it's too cold.
2013-01-28 22:48 <whitequark> ^ that
2013-01-28 22:48 <whitequark> I guess you should avoid moisture.
2013-01-28 22:48 <whitequark> obviously.
2013-01-28 22:48 <wpwrak> ;-)
2013-01-28 22:49 <whitequark> otherwise, remember that 10 K of temperature translates to 2-4 times slowdown of chemical reactions
2013-01-28 22:49 <wpwrak> c'mon. when the fridge light doesn't work, you can use your li-on plus moisture as alternative illumination :)
2013-01-28 22:49 <wpwrak> also great for de-icing :)
2013-01-28 22:49 <whitequark> i.e. cooling them from 300K to 270K generally slows down self-discharge ~27 times.
2013-01-28 22:50 <whitequark> also applies to food, decomposing corpses, etc.
2013-01-28 22:50 <whitequark> whatever's in your fridge.
2013-01-28 22:50 <wpwrak> so you're saying 0 C is fine for long-term storage ?
2013-01-28 22:50 <viric> :)
2013-01-28 22:50 <larsc> 0K is better ;)
2013-01-28 22:51 <whitequark> wpwrak: never said that, through I don't see any immediate problems with 0C
2013-01-28 22:51 <viric> Why battery shops don't have fridges, like meat shops?
2013-01-28 22:51 <whitequark> viric: you still have to deal with moisture
2013-01-28 22:51 <wpwrak> hint: don't keep evidence too long. you should plan to clean out your enemies at least once per year, mid-winter
2013-01-28 22:51 <viric> batteries in properly closed boxes
2013-01-28 22:51 <wpwrak> viric: fridge = costs money :)
2013-01-28 22:51 <whitequark> ^ also that
2013-01-28 22:51 <larsc> viric: the ammount of power consumed by the fridges is probably more than the power saved
2013-01-28 22:52 <whitequark> they don't self-discharge _that_ fast
2013-01-28 22:52 <viric> :D
2013-01-28 22:52 <whitequark> i guess something like half a year will pass until it's near 0%
2013-01-28 22:52 <whitequark> they sell them uicker
2013-01-28 22:52 <wpwrak> there's also general aging while in storage. i think this isn't directly related to self-discharge
2013-01-28 22:52 <whitequark> *quicker
2013-01-28 22:52 <viric> So, nowadays buying a 'new' battery for a very old mobile phone...
2013-01-28 22:52 <viric> means low chances of the battery working at all
2013-01-28 22:52 <viric> (if it was in some store for years9
2013-01-28 22:52 <viric> )
2013-01-28 22:53 <wpwrak> viric: you buy a "new" battery made for the old form factor
2013-01-28 22:53 <whitequark> viric: exactly
2013-01-28 22:53 <whitequark> viric: never been able to find good batteries for nokia 3310
2013-01-28 22:53 <viric> wpwrak: aren't 'form factors' just a way to disallow you buying "a new battery made for..." ?
2013-01-28 22:53 <wpwrak> and don't plan on adding your old expensive li-ion batteries to the family heirloom, to passed down generation upon generation :)
2013-01-28 22:54 <viric> wpwrak: meh.
2013-01-28 22:54 <wpwrak> viric: naw, there are many 3rd party battery makers. i think the original makers don't care anymore at that point
2013-01-28 22:54 <viric> umh interesting
2013-01-28 22:55 <viric> I bought a very cheap battery for a phone...
2013-01-28 22:55 <wpwrak> of course, the 3rd party batteries may not be the greatest quality
2013-01-28 22:55 <viric> I'd like to see how well it goes.
2013-01-28 22:55 <wpwrak> and it seems unlikely that they can sell them very quickly
2013-01-28 22:55 <viric> right.
2013-01-28 22:55 <viric> it's a dead end
2013-01-28 22:55 <wpwrak> but it's your best bet (unless the original maker still sells "good" ones)
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2013-01-28 22:56 <wpwrak> i have an old samsung x830 that's now on a 3rd party battery. the original one had a standby time of just some 4-5 hours and talk time < 1 minute.
2013-01-28 22:57 <wpwrak> the 3rd party battery, less than a year old, already shows signs of aging, but may be good for another year before it becomes unusable
2013-01-28 22:58 <viric> umh that 'old' 'new' battery looks at 50%
2013-01-28 22:58 <wpwrak> doesn't sound too bad
2013-01-28 22:58 <wpwrak> i wouldn't worry at 50%. the decline can go a lot further.
2013-01-28 22:59 <wpwrak> what sucks is if you have a device that needs battery power to make it through some load surges. then even having permanent external power may not be enough for stable operation.
2013-01-28 22:59 <viric> we'll see. :)
2013-01-28 23:00 <viric> ?
2013-01-28 23:00 <viric> ah a battery to get big currents?
2013-01-28 23:01 <wpwrak> like a phone. it may need more energy than the external source can provide for brief moments. so it relies on the battery to provide that. if your battery is really dead but you don't actually need mobility, that would limit the option of "solving" the battery issue by simply leaving it connected to a charger
2013-01-28 23:05 <larsc> my laptop for example limits the cpu speed to 800MHz if no battery is plugged in
2013-01-28 23:09 <whitequark> larsc: thinkpad?
2013-01-28 23:10 <larsc> yes
2013-01-28 23:10 <whitequark> they for sure have some intelligent power handling
2013-01-28 23:11 <whitequark> eg a friend's thinkpad had a power failure somewhere in the DVD drive
2013-01-28 23:11 <whitequark> guess what, a balloon pops up [that was windows] which informs him that his DVD drive was shut down due to an overcurrent condition
2013-01-28 23:11 <wpwrak> nice :)
2013-01-28 23:12 <wpwrak> others would have used the more traditional smoke signals
2013-01-28 23:12 <larsc> it even makes these decisions based on which power supply is used, if I'd use a 90W power supply instead of a 65W power supply it wouldn't limit the cpu speed
2013-01-28 23:13 <wpwrak> that's almost too smart :)
2013-01-28 23:13 <whitequark> also they are probably the only vendor with completely correct ACPI tables
2013-01-28 23:13 <whitequark> because they went straight to Intel and asked them to write it.
2013-01-28 23:13 <whitequark> cost him $$$, of course.
2013-01-28 23:13 <whitequark> *them
2013-01-28 23:15 <whitequark> I almost wish I bought thinkpad X1 instead of this UX32VD
2013-01-28 23:15 <wpwrak> i always thought correct and complete ACPI tables were proven to be impossible, Goedel-style :)
2013-01-28 23:15 <whitequark> but the keyboard and touchpad are eww.
2013-01-28 23:16 <wpwrak> gotta love the trackpoint, though
2013-01-28 23:16 <wpwrak> they're about the last ones that still have that. i can't express in words just how much i hate those touchpads
2013-01-28 23:17 <whitequark> i feel the same about trackpoint
2013-01-28 23:17 <wpwrak> well, you can disable it if you must :)
2013-01-28 23:18 <whitequark> thinkpad would also have some other advantages to justify its cost, 2x of my current notebook
2013-01-28 23:18 <whitequark> ie not having to do echo on >/sys/bus/pci/devices/0000:00:14.0/power/control after each wakeup.
2013-01-28 23:18 <whitequark> took me several months to figure out
2013-01-28 23:19 <larsc> I once had an interesting bios bug where it would always limit the cpu speed whenever the power supply was plugged in, even though the battery was also present. running on battery only was fine though.
2013-01-28 23:19 <whitequark> bios bugs are fun for sure :/
2013-01-28 23:20 <larsc> it's quite confusing if suddenly everything is running slow and you don't know why
2013-01-28 23:20 <whitequark> oh look, several new "update EC firmware" in the bios changelog. if I don't appear again the update went wrong.
2013-01-28 23:45 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-la/ubb-la.c (do_bufs): don't skip 122 nibbled (for evaluation) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/4ffd610
2013-01-28 23:45 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-la/ubb-la.c (xfers): wait for END_CMD_RES instead of DATA_FIFO_EMPTY (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/18a822b
2013-01-28 23:45 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-la/ubb-la.c (xfers): instead of waiting for event, use hand-optimized delay loop (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/14b7a9c