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2013-01-20 00:26 <wpwrak> hmm, http://projects.qi-hardware.com/ is not responding :-(
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2013-01-20 01:05 <wolfspraul> ok let me see...
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2013-01-20 01:44 <wpwrak> working again. thanks !
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2013-01-20 10:00 <viric> What do you think of this procedure? https://www33.jvckenwood.com/gpl/gpl_form_en.html
2013-01-20 10:02 <larsc> well, it is gpl compliant, isn't it?
2013-01-20 10:02 <viric> yes :)
2013-01-20 10:03 <viric> clever.
2013-01-20 10:03 <viric> I wonder whether to ask for it
2013-01-20 10:03 <viric> I've no idea how much the postal sending will be
2013-01-20 10:06 <viric> ok, I asked for it
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2013-01-20 10:36 <wpwrak> viric: you may want to google for the product name. after all, once anyone receives their CD, they're free to redistribute it (at least the GPL code, in case there's more on it) anywhere they like. in case you're the first one, you should of course do so :)
2013-01-20 10:43 <viric> I tried, but I didn't find anything quickly
2013-01-20 10:48 <wpwrak> then you'll be the first to completely liberate the sources :)
2013-01-20 10:48 <viric> hehe
2013-01-20 10:49 <viric> I'd like to get into the device with some shell (it has busybox for sure, and a wifi adapter)
2013-01-20 10:49 <viric> but that's another deal.
2013-01-20 10:53 <Fallenou> wpwrak: awesome piece of work, your pattern generator :)
2013-01-20 10:54 <wpwrak> thanks :) did you play with it ?
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2013-01-20 10:54 <Fallenou> I don't have any Ben unfortunately
2013-01-20 10:55 <Fallenou> I might aquire one though one day, it seems a very nice little experimenting toy
2013-01-20 10:57 <wpwrak> it is :)
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2013-01-20 20:16 <wpwrak> great typo: <1 << 3)  in a group of similar bit definitions. with the right font, even if the compiler tells you exactly where it is, it takes several minutes of staring to see this one
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2013-01-20 20:20 <Fallenou> nice catch =)
2013-01-20 20:21 <Fallenou> it's like special whitespaces which are not "space" that you usually type with a combination of alt|shift|your_cat_on_the_keyboard + space
2013-01-20 20:21 <Fallenou> you can only spot them using hexdump on your source code :)
2013-01-20 20:22 <Fallenou> or just removing spaces randomly in your source code and replacing it with .. another space
2013-01-20 20:26 <larsc>  . . . . .
2013-01-20 20:27 <wpwrak> oh, indeed. Alt+Space produces 0xa0. wow.
2013-01-20 20:27 <wpwrak> luckily, even vi doesn't show this abomination as just a space
2013-01-20 20:28 <larsc> wpwrak: try the characters I just pasted
2013-01-20 20:28 <wpwrak> pasting already turns them into '
2013-01-20 20:29 <wpwrak> oops. '#'
2013-01-20 20:29 <wpwrak> and the perverted space simply vanishes on copy & paste
2013-01-20 20:29 <larsc> there is even a visible space in unicode: ␣
2013-01-20 20:30 <wpwrak> (alt+spc)
2013-01-20 20:32 <wpwrak> it was already pretty daring to start using that 7th bit. why on earth would anyone in their sane judgment want 8 or even more bits per character ?
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2013-01-20 20:39 <larsc> because there are more than 256 characters?
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2013-01-20 20:44 <whitequark> I'm laterally thinking of what encoding would be a good idea to use in embedded programming
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2013-01-20 20:45 <whitequark> it seems to me that UTF-8 is probably optimal, with iteration over 16-bit codepoints
2013-01-20 20:46 <whitequark> the possible problems are various normalization algorithms, which AFAIK may require large tables, and surrogate pairs
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2013-01-20 20:50 <wpwrak> larsc: there are the necessary characters. then there is upper/lower case. and then there are transcriptions :)
2013-01-20 20:50 <wpwrak> everything else is just confusion :)
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2013-01-20 20:52 <whitequark> wpwrak: you english-speaking chauvinist!
2013-01-20 20:52 <larsc> wpwrak: tell that to anybody who's not using the latin alphabet ;)
2013-01-20 20:52 <larsc> whitequark: hm, funny you can get the same character using different byte encodings, didn't knew that
2013-01-20 20:53 <whitequark> larsc: that stuff is somewhat insane but is unfortunately required
2013-01-20 20:53 <whitequark> the NFKC/NFKD are especially useful when doing string comparison, e.g. in search queries
2013-01-20 20:54 <larsc> "Compatible sequences may be treated the same way in some applications (such as sorting and indexing), but not in others; and may be substituted for each other in some situations, but not in others. Sequences that are canonically equivalent are also compatible, but the opposite is not necessarily true."
2013-01-20 20:54 <larsc> that sounds like a lot of fun
2013-01-20 20:54 <whitequark> oh exactly.
2013-01-20 20:54 <whitequark> also: In using normalization functions, it is important to realize that none of the Normalization Forms are closed under string concatenation.
2013-01-20 20:55 <wpwrak> larsc: oh, make kids learn to write in ASCII (let's call it SCII to avoid geographic bias) and in just a few generations you've solved that problem, too
2013-01-20 20:56 <whitequark> wpwrak: it might be helpful to remember that majority of the world's population, in fact, couldn't care less about *SCII, much less enforce it
2013-01-20 20:56 <wpwrak> larsc: (confusing characters) it starts with the '. there seems to be a non-ASCII ' in some environments, not sure if it's in some keyboard layouts or a windows thing. very annoying to run into these.
2013-01-20 20:57 <whitequark> and, by extension of the same logic, I would much like to see Americans using proper system, e.g. metric and big-endian dates.
2013-01-20 20:57 <wpwrak> whitequark: yeah, the west missed an opportunity there, when asia was weak and impressionable :)
2013-01-20 20:57 <whitequark> (yes, I take this personally. fuck with encodings for a decade and you will as well)
2013-01-20 20:57 <wpwrak> (metric) maybe we could work out a deal between asia and the US ;-)
2013-01-20 20:58 <whitequark> if only asia didn't use its own version of measurement system, which is way more fucked up than imperial units
2013-01-20 20:58 <whitequark> *versions
2013-01-20 20:58 <wpwrak> russia is close enough to ASCII that the switch would be trivial :)
2013-01-20 20:58 <wpwrak> ah, do they ?
2013-01-20 20:59 <whitequark> wpwrak: well, from what I know there is quite a bit of these systems, all fragmented and empirically defined
2013-01-20 20:59 <whitequark> i.e. units derived from "buckets" and similar ad-hoc means of measurement
2013-01-20 20:59 <whitequark> but due to their quantity, it again seems that they do settle on metric mostly
2013-01-20 20:59 <wpwrak> sounds familiar .. "foot", etc.
2013-01-20 20:59 <whitequark> yeah yeah
2013-01-20 20:59 <whitequark> we had one in Russia too. which was, ironically, derived from imperial units
2013-01-20 21:00 <wpwrak> yeah, the US seems to be the last bastion of widespread use of non-metric
2013-01-20 21:00 <whitequark> if I remember my history classes correctly, it emerged in early 1700s at the reign of Peter the Great and lasted until the communists took over
2013-01-20 21:01 <wpwrak> there are plenty of funny measurements that all go straight to the romans (and who knows where they stole them)
2013-01-20 21:01 <whitequark> as a side effect, 1U server has the height of один вершок
2013-01-20 21:01 <wpwrak> i hope that's an irrational number :)
2013-01-20 21:01 <whitequark> which sounds reeeeally arcane and antique in Russian
2013-01-20 21:01 <whitequark> 1U is an integral number of inches
2013-01-20 21:02 <whitequark> not sure which exactly
2013-01-20 21:02 <wpwrak> i meant "один вершок" :)
2013-01-20 21:02 <wpwrak> OAIH BEPWOK. see, it's easy :) no, what do you cook in a bepwok ?
2013-01-20 21:03 <whitequark> well as I've said, it simply equals to the inches. it's basically a translation of "inch" dating back to 1700s
2013-01-20 21:03 <wpwrak> ah wait, that was a reversed N, so OANH
2013-01-20 21:03 <whitequark> pronounced somewhat like "odin vershok"
2013-01-20 21:04 <whitequark> yeah, the google translate's spoken version of that is close enough to be understood
2013-01-20 21:04 <wpwrak> ah, odin after sharing a few barrels of mead with thor ;-)
2013-01-20 21:05 <whitequark> oh, unicode has "security considerations" http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr36/
2013-01-20 21:06 <whitequark> because google.com and gооgle.com are different things!
2013-01-20 21:06 <larsc> unicode in domainnames is lots of fun
2013-01-20 21:07 <whitequark> i'm not exactly sure what purpose IDNs serve
2013-01-20 21:07 <wpwrak> just don't do it :) most languages have quite tolerable transcriptions. and the chinese like numbers anyway, so no problem there either
2013-01-20 21:07 <whitequark> they look very weird, and you have to switch to latin to type http:// and whatever follows anyway
2013-01-20 21:07 <whitequark> and anyone without a cyrillic layout cannot type them, etc
2013-01-20 21:08 <wpwrak> i think the main purpose is to enable interesting new scams
2013-01-20 21:08 <whitequark> as a russian, I would be happier (or as happy) without IDNs
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2013-01-20 21:10 <whitequark> oh rtl scripts interrupted by ltr sequences in domain names god why
2013-01-20 21:10 <whitequark> who on earth could think this would be a good idea in any circumstances?!
2013-01-20 21:11 <wpwrak> because there are rtl scripts ? :)
2013-01-20 21:12 <wpwrak> and the scammers like it, too: www.<rtl>knab<lrt>.com/login
2013-01-20 21:12 <wpwrak> s/lrt/ltr/
2013-01-20 21:12 <qi-bot> wpwrak meant: "and the scammers like it, too: www.<rtl>knab<ltr>.com/login"
2013-01-20 21:14 <whitequark> yeah yeah
2013-01-20 21:15 <larsc> hello
2013-01-20 21:15 <larsc> hm, doesn't work on my terminal
2013-01-20 21:15 <larsc> ☃
2013-01-20 21:17 <larsc> wpwrak: see that's why you need more than 256 characters
2013-01-20 21:19 <wpwrak> all i see there is a tiny grey squiggle :) may be \^o. or an abstract portrait of tux ?
2013-01-20 21:20 <whitequark> a snowman
2013-01-20 21:20 <larsc> it's a snowman
2013-01-20 21:22 <larsc> http://shapecatcher.com/
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2013-01-20 21:29 <wpwrak> hmm, doesn't work here. probably too hot.
2013-01-20 21:29 <larsc> ⎧
2013-01-20 21:29 <wpwrak> this one is nice: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2035926
2013-01-20 21:29 <larsc> ⎨
2013-01-20 21:29 <larsc> ⎩
2013-01-20 21:30 <larsc> try to use that in your c program ;)
2013-01-20 21:30 <whitequark> larsc: am I stupid? see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-16
2013-01-20 21:31 <whitequark> where's the U+FFFF..U+FFFFF range?
2013-01-20 21:31 <whitequark> oh I am.
2013-01-20 21:32 <wpwrak> Unicode hexadecimal: 0x1f61c "Face with stuck-out tongue and winking eye". now, how do i add tilde and cedilla ?
2013-01-20 21:32 <wpwrak> larsc: probably more typing than BEGIN in Pascal ;-)
2013-01-20 21:33 * whitequark hands wpwrak a COMBINING TILDE U+0303
2013-01-20 21:33 <wpwrak> argh
2013-01-20 21:33 <wpwrak> i should have known ...
2013-01-20 21:33 <whitequark> and a COMBINING CEDILLA U+0327
2013-01-20 21:33 <whitequark> I also have no clue what a cedilla is, and my font rendering engine neither
2013-01-20 21:34 <larsc> a̧
2013-01-20 21:34 <whitequark> oh
2013-01-20 21:34 <wpwrak> and of course, they also have things like "Greek small letter upsilon with dasia and oxia"
2013-01-20 21:34 <larsc> it's something at the bottom of the character
2013-01-20 21:34 <whitequark> wpwrak: the job of unicode is to make every single other encoding obsolete
2013-01-20 21:34 <whitequark> thus, they just plain include everything imaginable
2013-01-20 21:35 <wpwrak> cedilla looks a bit like a comma. in french it's below some cs ("c-cedille")
2013-01-20 21:35 <whitequark> Linear Scripts A and B :D
2013-01-20 21:35 <whitequark> this is actually quite wise. first, because unicode actually reduces a huge PITA with encodings to a significantly less PITA with one encoding
2013-01-20 21:36 <whitequark> and second, because languages die, and we don't want them to be buried with their respective encoding
2013-01-20 21:36 <wpwrak> "Canadian syllabics nwii" from "Unified Canadian Aboriginal Syllabics Extended". i think they forgot the name of the person in whose handwriting it looks exactly like that
2013-01-20 21:37 <wpwrak> well, as some point you have more codepoints than reasonably distinguishable glyphs :)
2013-01-20 21:39 <whitequark> wpwrak: this was actually a hot political topic
2013-01-20 21:39 <whitequark> so-called Han unification
2013-01-20 21:39 <wpwrak> heh :)
2013-01-20 21:39 <whitequark> the unicode consortium has unified the Chinese hieroglyphs and corresponding Japanese derived ones
2013-01-20 21:39 <wpwrak> i can imagine that unicode is a good place for political stakeholders
2013-01-20 21:39 <whitequark> not only they have some subtle, but practically important, differences in rendering
2013-01-20 21:40 <wpwrak> and if the differences are invisible, they're even more important :)
2013-01-20 21:40 <whitequark> but also for both of these nations, unificating their language with the language of their oppressor has an immediate danger of someone going into a rage
2013-01-20 21:41 <whitequark> this is also the reason Ruby, instead of just settling on Unicode, includes support for all imaginable encodings
2013-01-20 21:41 <whitequark> the important part is that they feature Shift-JIS and friends :)
2013-01-20 21:41 <whitequark> also that made the encoding system a total clusterfuck impossible to reimplement in a compatible way
2013-01-20 21:42 <wpwrak> the more i hear about unicode, the more i like my ascii unification idea :) at least people from all but a very small number of countries would have to give up some of their priced cultural heritage. so it's unfair to almost all. let's strike some nearly redundant letter and also the rest will be pissed off. how about the K ? there should be a great howl of agony in some places in the southern US.
2013-01-20 21:43 <whitequark> fortunately, ruby 2.0 defaults on utf-8 everywhere and maybe they'll do something with the encodings...
2013-01-20 21:43 <wpwrak> just strip and 8th bit and peace is restored
2013-01-20 21:43 <wpwrak> s/and/the/q
2013-01-20 21:43 <qi-bot> wpwrak meant: "just strip the 8th bit the peace is restored"
2013-01-20 21:44 <wpwrak> hey, that was a "quit after the first substitution" !
2013-01-20 21:44 <larsc> y can go aswell
2013-01-20 21:45 <wpwrak> jeah
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2013-01-20 21:45 <wpwrak> though it would be better to begin with things like I=1, O=0, S=5, etc.
2013-01-20 21:46 <larsc> yea, we can actually get rid of 0-9 anyway
2013-01-20 21:46 <wpwrak> so instead of s/y//g how about s/i/y/g ?
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2013-01-20 21:46 <wpwrak> correct. the romans had it pretty much figured out. back to the basics.
2013-01-20 21:47 <wpwrak> let's use Z for 0.
2013-01-20 21:47 <whitequark> you have invented the typewriter alphabet, congrats
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2013-01-20 21:48 <wpwrak> that one usually has numbers
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2013-01-20 21:49 <whitequark> hm
2013-01-20 21:49 <wpwrak> maybe if you add a reverse button ... O, I, Z, rev-E, rev-h, S, G, rev-L, semi-rev-B, rev-G. yeah, that could work.
2013-01-20 21:50 <wpwrak> but better to just switch to roman numerals. proven technology.
2013-01-20 21:50 <whitequark> Many older typewriters did not include a separate key for the numeral 1 or the exclamation point, and some even older ones also lack the numeral zero. Typists who trained on these machines learned the habit of using the lowercase letter l ("ell") for the digit 1, and the uppercase O for the zero.
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2013-01-20 21:50 <larsc> just use A-I instead of 0-9
2013-01-20 21:51 <whitequark> larsc: or ADGJMPTWZ
2013-01-20 21:51 <larsc> no!
2013-01-20 21:51 <wpwrak> who so inefficient and not A-Z ?
2013-01-20 21:51 <larsc> ;)
2013-01-20 21:52 <larsc> because we only have IA fingers
2013-01-20 21:52 <whitequark> larsc: i.e. 90?
2013-01-20 21:52 <wpwrak> by the time you've convinced everyone, genetic engineering will have a solution for that, too
2013-01-20 21:52 <larsc> BA
2013-01-20 21:53 <larsc> bee-te a
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2013-01-20 22:21 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-patgen/timeline.fig: timeline of pattern generation (description in README) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/a313515
2013-01-20 22:21 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: libubb/include/ubb/regs4740.h: add symbolic bit/field definitions for MSC_* (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/8509c1f
2013-01-20 22:21 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: libubb/mmcclk.c: use symbolic bit/field definitions for MSC_* (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/4cb68b7
2013-01-20 22:21 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-patgen/ubb-patgen.c: use symbolic bit/field definitions for MSC_* (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/486471e
2013-01-20 22:22 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: libubb/include/ubb/regs4740.h: add symbolic bit/field definitions for DMA (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/5efafd6
2013-01-20 22:22 <qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: ubb-patgen/ubb-patgen.c: use symbolic bit/field definitions for DMA (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-blinkenlights/5025f36
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2013-01-20 22:31 <wpwrak> hah ! now microsoft also have their competition for google's "project glass" (the somewhat mysterious VR glasses): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwModZmOzDs
2013-01-20 22:31 <larsc> good to see they still have some money left
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2013-01-20 22:32 <larsc> oh it's not real :/
2013-01-20 22:33 <wpwrak> looks good, though :)
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